How women dress & the consequences of their choices

[Disney's Divinity]

Jasmine. Oh Jasmine......I find her hypocritical in the sense that she's "Not an object to be won" and yet dresses like a pole dancer. Hmmm what's wrong with this picture? Yeah she's a princess who lives in a desert, but there's women out in the market wearing heavier clothing than that. I'm pretty sure she could have had a better outfit be made for her and in better fabric.

That's how I've always felt. It's a bit different from Ariel, considering all the mermaids wear next to nothing, so it's clearly the norm for her. But there were poor people wearing more than Jasmine in Aladdin.

I think it's specifically that "I'm not a prize to be won" thing that makes her clothes stand out so much--I don't know why anyone would be wearing clothes like that if it's not to get attention (the only other characters in the film who wear similar clothes are the girls who are overtly sexual with Aladdin in "One Jump Ahead"). She's clearly not naive about her sexuality, as seen with the kissing Jafar scene. No doubt the fact that she's "the love interest" in a boy's film is part of the reason for the clothes. Still, I don't remember the various Disney prince love interests being next to nude.

Maybe she just liked the clothes though? No idea. I'm not saying she should be wrapped up like a nun or anything, but I don't know why she'd want to dress like a stripper.

EDIT: Although, Aladdin only wore that little jacket, so...not much difference, I guess.

[Goliath]

That's how I've always felt. It's a bit different from Ariel, considering all the mermaids wear next to nothing, so it's clearly the norm for her. But there were poor people wearing more than Jasmine in Aladdin.

I think it's specifically that "I'm not a prize to be won" thing that makes her clothes stand out so much--I don't know why anyone would be wearing clothes like that if it's not to get attention (the only other characters in the film who wear similar clothes are the girls who are overtly sexual with Aladdin in "One Jump Ahead"). She's clearly not naive about her sexuality, as seen with the kissing Jafar scene. No doubt the fact that she's "the love interest" in a boy's film is part of the reason for the clothes. Still, I don't remember the various Disney prince love interests being next to nude.

Excuse me, but is this actually the 21ste century?!! Does a straight male needs to tell all of you that dressing in a sexy way is *in no way* equal to being "an object to be won"? Honestly, I feel like I'm talking to Gaston from BatB here.

[Disney's Divinity]

If you’re dressing like a stripper--who basically live lives as objects--then that’s obviously the comparison you’re asking for. I doubt any woman just wears a thong or high heels because she likes them (those things can chafe ).

Dressing sexy = getting attention. Do you dress sexy for yourself? No. You do it to get people to look at you. (I know, I've done it. If I were just being comfortable, I'd wear sweat pants...not flattering.)

EDIT: Oh, and thanks for the bow. However short-lived that moment was.

[Super Aurora]

Jasmine doesn't give a fuck what you guys think because she owns a Tiger......like a BOSS

[Sotiris]

Dressing sexy = getting attention. Do you dress sexy for yourself? No. You do it to get people to look at you. (I know, I've done it. If I were just being comfortable, I'd wear sweat pants...not flattering.)

It's never good to generalize. Maybe you feel that way but I've heard a lot of girls say that they dress up for themselves. A friend of mine, for example, told me that she sometimes likes to dress up without going out.

Sure, there are women who do it for the attention but others do it to feel good about themselves and feel pretty because society has associated beauty and femininity with a certain style of appearance.

Besides, even if it's for the attention, what's wrong with that to begin with? Especially when society positions being pretty, desirable, and attractive, quite highly. Why one should be labeled a "slut" when dressed "sexy" or "hot"? Is the way you dress equivalent to the amount of sexual encounters you've had? That's ridiculous.

Seeking attention doesn't necessarily mean that you're trying to hook up with someone anyway. That's the excuse men give when they sexually assualt women: "she wanted it; otherwise she wouldn't have dressed this way".

[Disney's Divinity]

Sure, there are women who do it for the attention but others do it to feel good about themselves and feel pretty because society has associated beauty and femininity with a certain style of appearance.

Personally, I think that comes from knowing you look good to others. It does come down to defining your happiness about yourself from what others are thinking. It's fine if that's what you're looking for, but I don't really think that discounts the fact that it relies on getting attention.

Is the way you dress equivalent to the amount of sexual encounters you've had? That's ridiculous.

No, but it often times signals what you're looking for. ie, attention. Not necessarily a sexual encounter, but perhaps a date or admiring looks. Jasmine's just lucky she got a guy who would look at her eyes before her chest.

That's the excuse men give when they sexually assualt women: "she wanted it; otherwise she wouldn't have dressed this way".

I had a feeling someone would bring that up. In no way was I condoning rape--the invasion of someone's rights--because there always has to be consent. But when you go out in public dressed in a certain way to catch attention, you shouldn't exactly be upset when all the guys are looking at your body or, in other words, treating you like an object.

[Sotiris]

Seeking attention or wanting to get admiring looks (again, something that society fosters in women--the importance of being attractive and desirable) does not mean you want to be objectified and treated solely as a sexual being which diminishes your personality and devalues your worth as a human being. It may happen but it doesn't make it right.

My point is that regardless the way you dress or the reasons behind it, no one has the right to criticize, judge or objectify you.

For example, you assumed Jasmine is a hypocrite because she says she doesn't want to be treated as an object while wearing skimpy clothes. Perhaps, she likes the specific style of fashion, who knows? Why would you instantly assume it's because she craves attention?

Besides, the "being a prize to be won" issue has more to do with her social position as a princess than with her looks. The potential groom would have inherited the throne and the kingdom's riches. Of course being attractive and sexy is a plus for the groom but she would still have been treated the same even if she wasn't as beautiful or dressed as sexy.

[WarriorDreamer]

I hate threads like this cause it's just giving people a reason to bitch.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

Is that your reason for disliking Jasmine? You think that makes her hypocritical? Maybe you should come join us in the 21st century! As if dressing that way entitles men to think of her as "an object to be won"!! That you would even make that connection is baffling to me! So when a woman dresses that way, you think she's an object or wants to be seen as an object?! I have to stop writing now, before I end up saying something I regret, because I'm getting more angry every second I think about your backward thoughts!

I never said she -was- an object to be won. However, I do find it rather sily of her to say she isn't to be won and yet dresses in blatant, signal crossing manners. You aren't an object to be won, and yet you're walking around in a bikini top? That's sending a hypocritical and very mixed signal to me.

And no I don't think right off the bat that women want to be seen as objects or that when they dress that way they are one. Also, I find it surprising that you have nothing to say about Super Aurora going on about she's "hot and fuckable" since -that- comes off in a worse manner in my opinion.

Super A, this isn't meant as an attack at you at all so nothing personal.

[DisneyFan09]

I hate threads like this cause it's just giving people a reason to bitch.

I understand your point of view, but there's a difference between bitching and discussing in a constructive manner. Most of the users here are constructive and people will always have different opinions in a board.

[Goliath]

If you’re dressing like a stripper--who basically live lives as objects--then that’s obviously the comparison you’re asking for. I doubt any woman just wears a thong or high heels because she likes them (those things can chafe ).

Dressing sexy = getting attention. Do you dress sexy for yourself? No. You do it to get people to look at you. (I know, I've done it. If I were just being comfortable, I'd wear sweat pants...not flattering.)

"A woman who is dressed provocatively and who is raped was asking for it." Yes or no? Because that's the ultimate consequence of your thinking. It's but a small step away from saying sexual assault is brought upon women by themselves when they dress provocatively. A woman isn't an object because of the way she dresses. A woman is *never* an object. Even if she had been butt-naked all the way through the movie. What gives you the right or the moral authority to decide in her place what she is/should be? A woman should feel free to dress however she wants, without having to justify herself. How a woman dresses and how she feels inside are two entirely different things.

I am very disappointed in you, that you would think less of a woman, and treat her like an object, because of the way she dresses. Whenever I visited friends in Amsterdam, we always made a walk through the red light district and we looked at the prostitutes there. These are women who pose in nothing but their underwear in front of windows to lure men in to have sex with them in exchange for money. But these women are still *women*, people, with their own will. They can decide whom they want to let into their rooms, and they can decide to reject a client. They are not objects there for the men to take.

I am really shocked by what you wrote. No joking. No false forum drama. I really am.

I had a feeling someone would bring that up. In no way was I condoning rape--the invasion of someone's rights--because there always has to be consent. But when you go out in public dressed in a certain way to catch attention, you shouldn't exactly be upset when all the guys are looking at your body or, in other words, treating you like an object.

Dead wrong again. Of course guys are going to watch. That's a given. And there's nothing wrong with that. But when a guy thinks of a woman as an 'object' because she dressed sexy, that's the guy's problem. Not that of the woman. The woman may have sought attention. Fine, nothing wrong with that. But no woman wants to be seen as an object instead of a person. And yes, your way of thinking eventually leads to the question asked by Sotiris and myself.

[...]Besides, even if it's for the attention, what's wrong with that to begin with? Especially when society positions being pretty, desirable, and attractive, quite highly. Why one should be labeled a "slut" when dressed "sexy" or "hot"? Is the way you dress equivalent to the amount of sexual encounters you've had? That's ridiculous.

Seeking attention doesn't necessarily mean that you're trying to hook up with someone anyway. That's the excuse men give when they sexually assualt women: "she wanted it; otherwise she wouldn't have dressed this way".

Seeking attention or wanting to get admiring looks (again, something that society fosters in women--the importance of being attractive and desirable) does not mean you want to be objectified and treated solely as a sexual being which diminishes your personality and devalues your worth as a human being. It may happen but it doesn't make it right. [...]

If I had just read your posts before I started replying, I would have saved myself a lot of typing.

I never said she -was- an object to be won. However, I do find it rather sily of her to say she isn't to be won and yet dresses in blatant, signal crossing manners. You aren't an object to be won, and yet you're walking around in a bikini top? That's sending a hypocritical and very mixed signal to me.

But that's 19th century patriarchy talking! There's no logical reason to find it "hypocritical", because there is no such thing as a connection between the way a woman dresses and the way she wants to be seen. It's not Jasmine who is hypocritical; the problem lies with you. If you think she should be seen as an object because of the way she dresses, those are *your* thoughts, not hers. Apparently, when a woman dresses provocatively, you start to see her as an object rather than a person. Not the woman's fault/

And no I don't think right off the bat that women want to be seen as objects or that when they dress that way they are one.

But that's the one and only conclusion one can draw from your comments. You can say now that you don't think so, but it's the logical consequence of what you said previously.

Also, I find it surprising that you have nothing to say about Super Aurora going on about she's "hot and fuckable" since -that- comes off in a worse manner in my opinion.

No, because 1) Super A. is always joking that way; that's just his kind of humor that I'm used to, and 2.) saying that a woman is hot or "fuckable" doesn't automatically mean you see her as an object. Heck, I know plenty of women I'd like to f... (you know), but that doesn't mean I think of them as *just that*. I don't define them by that, and I don't think Super A. does either, but I can't speak for him.

-Ariel wasn't miserable enough to go looking for Ursula earlier, and besides, Trition didn't forbid Human contact, to make Ariel miserable. He forbade it in order to stop her swimming up to a ship, which he believed would almost certainly end with her getting speared by a harpoon, or caught in a trawler net.

That way well be, but even then it made Ariel miserable. It doesn't matter what Triton's reasons were for forbading Ariel to have contact with humans --he *did* and that made his daughter unhappy. I call the destruction of Ariel's cavern the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. The fight she and Triton had at the beginning of the movie obviously wasn't the first, as evidenced by his words. Was the deal with Ursula smart? No. Do teenagers do stupid things? Yes. Should we hate them for it? I don't think so.

-Jafar might have wanted power, rather than Jasmine, but she still let herself be a means of aquiring it, and she's a skank because she flirted with Jafar despite having no desire to. She could have distracted him by pinching his staff, or letting Rajah out of the cage, but she chose to turn him on instead. So much for doing something bold.

You are so wrong in more ways than I can describe --or care to. Jasmine wasn't "letting herself be a means of acquiring" anything. I'm sorry, but that's not a difference of opinion. She simply wasn't. She never wanted to be with Jafar, so how was she a means for him to acquire power? That doesn't make sense. And Jasmine distracted Jafar to save Aladdin, her father and herself. You can see how much she hated doing it. Saying that she is a 'skank' for doing so makes no sense. At all. Not even remotely. And it still saddens me that a woman would call another woman a 'skank' (or a 'slut' or 'whore' or whatever derogatory names there exist for women), no matter what the context.

Oh, and of course none of what I wrote has to be taken personally.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again; You cannot compare a girl's innocent kiss on the cheek to a guy to what Esmeralda did to Quasi! If you have seen the movie, her kiss was a manipulation technique to make Quasi change his mind. It was not just a innocent kiss and it lead Quasi to think that she may have feelings for him!

I didn't see that at all. I think it's a difference in interpretation --which is unavoidable when it comes to movies.

*Edited to add quotes & responses*

[WarriorDreamer]

Look, Jesus. Jasmine lived in Agrabah. I imagine it was boiling hot there, sorchingly high temperatures. She's not gonna go around in a big dress is she?

They obviously wanted to create a sexy heroine for a change and I see nothing wrong with it. If she was just a normal girl running around in just a bra I'd probably have a problem with it. But since she's a princess, I don't really have a problem with it.

Although Jasmine never really does anything heroic, I like that she has some integrity and refuses to marry just any prince from another country. She will only marry for love. Maybe she wears skimpy clothes because she's always locked up in the castle and she wont be getting any attention anyway.

[Goliath]

Look, Jesus. Jasmine lived in Agrabah. I imagine it was boiling hot there, sorchingly high temperatures. She's not gonna go around in a big dress is she?

Women in Afghanistan and Pakistan are made to wear burquas (the bee-keepers suits). No woman in modern-day Middle-Eastern countries can dress the way they want (except for Israel), either stemming from official law or from societal pressure. But even had she lived on the North Pole: nobody should have to make up excuses for dressing the way they want.

[...] Although Jasmine never really does anything heroic, I like that she has some integrity and refuses to marry just any prince from another country. She will only marry for love. [...]

Which was a brave thing to do, because the concept of 'marrying out of love' is only about a little more than 100 years old in human history.

[Disney's Divinity]

"A woman who is dressed provocatively and who is raped was asking for it." Yes or no?

No, I suppose. Because I'm not a rapist.

I am very disappointed in you, that you would think less of a woman, and treat her like an object, because of the way she dresses.

I would never look at a woman as an object, because I'm not going to be the one looking. But, yes, I do think a woman who consciously dresses that way--when there's no other reason to dress that way than to get attention--becomes less likable as a person to me and I wouldn't want to hang around them.

They are not objects there for the men to take.

No, they aren't, but that's not what I said. I said they are making themselves objects to be looked at--I said nothing about taking anything. This isn't an abortion topic where I'm trying to take a woman's rights away. Women can still dress any way they want to; that's their right. But if I see someone dressed like that, I instantly think "skank"--and I don't feel bad for it at all. It’s no different from meeting people who look like crackheads. They still have every right to do what they want; doesn’t mean I want to be around them.

And yes, your way of thinking eventually leads to the question asked by Sotiris and myself.

Maybe to people who have no control over their impulses and feel they can take away the rights of others, sure.

They obviously wanted to create a sexy heroine for a change and I see nothing wrong with it.

I agree, because it's a boy's movie and they wanted to give boys something to look at. Except I do see something wrong with it, personally.

Edit: @ CJ, sorry about that.

Although [Pocahontas] does have her moments where she comes off as dull and boring, she does have depth and complexity. Do I have to remind you that she sacrificed to be with her boyfriend for the safety of her people?

That’s how I’ve always felt. I’m surprised so many people think Pocahontas is dull, actually. I’ve always really loved her, and thought she was a really warm character. I can understand how people feel that way, but it makes me realize how differently the same things can be perceived by people.

[Super Aurora]

my response to this who Jasmine dress code/whore status crap:

[Goliath]

No, I suppose. Because I'm not a rapist.

But you use a rapist's train of thought.

I would never look at a woman as an object, because I'm not going to be the one looking. But, yes, I do think a woman who consciously dresses that way--when there's no other reason to dress that way than to get attention--becomes less likable as a person to me and I wouldn't want to hang around them. [...]

No, they aren't, but that's not what I said. I said they are making themselves objects to be looked at--I said nothing about taking anything. [...] But if I see someone dressed like that, I instantly think "skank"--and I don't feel bad for it at all.[...]

Well, you should. To be prejudiced and short-sighted is no quality to be proud of, let alone embracing 19th century views on women's sexuality. I had hoped we were passed the phase were men decided what is or isn't "appropriate" for women to wear in order to be respected. Unfortunately, as it turns out, we aren't. Men are still devaluing women based on their appereance. It's very sad that these systems of control and subjugation of women by men are still in place. I would want to ask you: who has given you the moral authority to be the judge of how women should dress to earn you approval? It's really beyond me that an otherwise intelligent person like yourself would value or even like a person less by the way she dresses.

Maybe to people who have no control over their impulses and feel they can take away the rights of others, sure.

No, it's your way of thinking, which devalues women who dress 'provocatively' which provides the excuse for sexual assault. You can't disconnect your devaluation of women based on their clothing from it being used as an excuse to assult them. They're the same train of thought.

I agree, because it's a boy's movie and they wanted to give boys something to look at. Except I do see something wrong with it, personally.

Those are your interpretations, and the fact that you see that says something about yourself and your preoccupations, not about the movie, the characters, the makers or their intentions. The makers of the movie didn't create the 'problem', you did.

EDIT: @ CJ: didn't see your message until I finished my post. Sorry.

[Disney Duster]

Semaj, the thing is the dwarfs did not agree to get told what to do in exchange for keeping her. They only agreed to her doing things for them. So Snow White was still being too pushy and not fitting their agreement, accept it was out of "goodness" and "kindness" because she cared about their hygene, so she gets off the hook because she "had" to do it for their health!

CJ, will you excuse me for defending a person, even if it's off-topic? I also feel I'm bringing this back on-topic, because I'm talking about Jasmine. I really feel it's related.

I gotta come in and defend Disney's Divinity. To be honest I can not read all of the conversation, but I can tell you that I know he is not going to "the same train of thought" as guys who rape girls! It is a known fact that the men who made this movie intended Jasmine to be sexy, otherwise it would only be her clothes which are sexualized but it's her whole body. But he was NOT saying that it means Jasmine should be viewed as an object, just that how she dresses is NOT the best way to dress for real life because of how it can make people view and perhaps she is trying to look sexy for men. If she genuinely likes her outfit and doesn't consider what men or anyone else thinks...that's still not good because then it means she's not the smartest, being unaware of what her clothes are possibly going to do to her life. A princess who dresses sexy because she likes it but also risks her safety and her reputation? She can dress how she wants inside and alone, you don't wear jeans to job interviews, you don't go nude in public, etc.

My one friend said that a Middle Eastern princess like Jasmine actually wouldn't wear something in real life as revealing as she did in the film... Does anyone know if it's true, it would really, really help!

But I do have to say, that you can choose to dress in ways that make you look good or sexy just for yourself. When you think you look good, it makes you feel good. But if you dress too sexy...better save it for home or the clubs! Not your everyday formal wear!

[Super Aurora]

My one friend said that a Middle Eastern princess like Jasmine actually wouldn't wear something in real life as revealing as she did in the film... Does anyone know if it's true, it would really, really help!

Yes and no. Back then, people of power(aka sultan) did have harems and most of them did dress like that. Also woman of high could wear that only inside their building and usually it only the high class women who have and can afford such clothing. Never would they were aloud to wear such in public open street. A Big no-no. Also it also depend on the region and kingdom of Islam belief of the rules regarding women clothing. Some may been more lax than others on dress codes for women back in the day.

Agrabah could be an fictional example of a more lax islam kingdom compared some more radical extremes.

[Disney's Divinity]

I would want to ask you: who has given you the moral authority to be the judge of how women should dress to earn you approval?

I have full disclosure over who is a part of my life, thankfully.

I agree, because it's a boy's movie and they wanted to give boys something to look at. Except I do see something wrong with it, personally.

Those are your interpretations

Not really. Men’s entertainment always have overly sexualized female love interests.

To be true, women’s entertainment always have overly idealized male love interests (ie: Grey‘s Anatomy); the difference being, they’re usually not dressed as if they were male dancers.

As for the rest, my feelings haven’t changed and aren’t likely to, so might as well put it to rest.

but I can tell you that I know he is not going to "the same train of thought" as guys who rape girls!

You also got the rest right, but thanks for that most of all. I didn't realize I would have to defend the fact that I'm not a rapist.

Though thinking more about what you said about the Middle Eastern thing, maybe they give her overly sexual clothes to symbolize her rejection of those repressive values similar to her rejection to arranged marriages, marrying nobility, etc.

[Sotiris]

I had hoped we were passed the phase were men decided what is or isn't "appropriate" for women to wear in order to be respected. Unfortunately, as it turns out, we aren't. Men are still devaluing women based on their appearance. It's very sad that these systems of control and subjugation of women by men are still in place.

What's even more unfortunate is that a lot of women have come to embrace patriarchal values and mentality instead of opposing them despite continuously being the recipients of that patriarchal oppression and despotism.

I would want to ask you: who has given you the moral authority to be the judge of how women should dress to earn your approval? It's really beyond me that an otherwise intelligent person like yourself would value or even like a person less by the way she dresses.