Cinderella Discussion

[Chernabog_Rocks]

So I was reading this book called The Gospel According To Disney, if anyone else has read this than they'll know what I'm talking about. In the Cinderella chapter the author called Cinderella a pale copy of Snow White, now I can see what he means by that, but at the same time I disagree with him. Like Disney said Cinderella went and found her prince, and the plots were diff. but also somewhat similar, it had some pretty cool characters like the Fairy Godmother, and who can forget the King swinging around on the chandiler lmao. Anways I love this movie, and since my mom has two sisters we call her Cinerella since whenever we visit my aunts she's always cleaning Def. two thumbs up to this movie regardless of what some idiot says in a book

[Disney Duster]

Chernabog_Rocks, I totally agree. Don't listen to that guy. First of all, the art took a completely stylistically different approach to the art. Second, Cinderella is considered much more of an active, not to mention personality-filled character than Snow White.

Anyway...I was thinking, if Lady Tremaine married Cinderella's father, wouldn't she take his last name, and keep that name even after he died? So does that mean Cinderella's father's last name was Tremaine, and Cinderella's last name is also Tremaine?!?!?!!!!

[Chernabog_Rocks]

Actually I took the book and got rid of it, I'm getting tired of seeing all of these people writing books about how Disney doesn't have enough religon in it, or people who look for the stupidest things and claim it's religous somehow Not sure why anyone would want to ruin perfectly good movies for kids. ANYWAYS back on topic now, thats a good point Disney Duster about Cinderella's last name. Lady Tremaine probably did take her husbands name when she married him, but I think the question is would she keep the name even after his death, or would she retake her maiden name. But all in all I guess that's something thats left to speculation unless one of the animators knows.

[Disney's Divinity]

I know this topic's rather old, but I wasn't quite sure where else to put this (I slightly touched on this in http://www.ultimatedisney.com/forum/vie ... 4&start=20, but that's not really the right place for this).

I was reading The Disney Villain today--I've had it since I was around a 11, but I mostly looked at it for the pictures when I was younger--and I was inspired to rant for a bit once I got to the Cinderella section.

There's a particular paragraph where the book describes Cinderella's deal with the Stepmother to go to the ball, and it says that Cinderella replies to the Stepmother's challenge with: "Oh, I will. I promise. I'll get a lovely dress too. I know you'll be proud of me." I suppose a lot of this must've been cut, as it is unnecessary, but it points out a dynamic to the story that's never fully stated aloud. There seems a [natural] desire from Cinderella (and from her father as well) to be loved by Lady Tremaine. This side to the story was expounded on in Ever After moreso, but I was just thinking how this adds an edge to Tremaine's villainy that's absent from nearly all other villains made by Disney--how terrible it is of her to abuse and mistreat a girl who still, somewhat naively, looks to her with respect and a small amount of love.

Sorry for bringing that up for no particular reason.

[Disneykid]

I agree with that idea, Disney's Divinity. Cinderella seems like a pretty bright individual, so the only way to explain her lack of suspicion at her stepmother's bargain is that she was desperately looking for an ounce of love or compassion from her. Also notice that when Cindy realizes she can't go to the ball, she at first tries to convince herself that it's not her thing, and then she simply mopes. Most other Cinderellas cry at this point in the story, but she's merely disappointed.

Her big crying scene only comes as a response to the dress ripping scene. Even then, I don't think it was the fact that her stepsisters ripped that thing to shreds. After they back off, she just stands there dazed, looking at Tremaine. It's only when Tremaine gives her a smirk and an ironic remark that Cindy loses it, probably because she officially realizes that her stepmother will never love her.

Something I find fascinating is that when this happens, where does Cinderella run to? The bench in front of the garden's willow tree. In the original Brothers Grimm version of the story, the spirit of Cindy's mother inhabited a willow tree and gave her what she needed to go to the ball. So not only is Disney referencing the original fairy tale, but they put a very subtle story aspect in there as part of the "Cindy's looking for love" plot thread. Just like the leaves in Pocahontas represent that character's mother, so does that tree represent Cinderella's.

Anyway...I was thinking, if Lady Tremaine married Cinderella's father, wouldn't she take his last name, and keep that name even after he died? So does that mean Cinderella's father's last name was Tremaine, and Cinderella's last name is also Tremaine?!?!?!!!!

A bus driver at Walt Disney World brought that up to me. He asked what was Cinderella's last name, and I just looked at him puzzled. At first I thought it would be a lame answer like "Charming," but he assured me that wasn't the case. I then asked, "Wait, you don't mean Tremaine, do you?" which happened to be what he was thinking.

I, personally, don't think Cinderella's last name is Tremaine. Lady Tremaine seems like the kind of proud woman who wouldn't even bother to take on her husband's last name or have her daughters do so. Plus, it's a little too weird that the only name the villain is known by would happen to be the last name of the heroine.

Still, it's possible that that's the case. I think most people agree that Lady Tremaine married Cindy's father for his money and social standing. With that in mind, she could very well have taken the last name as a means of flaunting it around and earning respect.

[Disney's Divinity]

Something I find fascinating is that when this happens, where does Cinderella run to? The bench in front of the garden's willow tree. In the original Brothers Grimm version of the story, the spirit of Cindy's mother inhabited a willow tree and gave her what she needed to go to the ball. So not only is Disney referencing the original fairy tale, but they put a very subtle story aspect in there as part of the "Cindy's looking for love" plot thread. Just like the leaves in Pocahontas represent that character's mother, so does that tree represent Cinderella's.

I've noticed that as well. It's one of the reasons I've often wondered if maybe the Fairy Godmother is supposed to be what Cinderella's mother would look like? I know it sounds ridiculus, but the story basically implies that her mother dies at her birth and she wouldn't have recognized her. And then the Fairy Godmother appears under the willow tree which the stories say is her mother's resting place. That's just something I've always assumed, as the Fairy Godmother is a heavenly presence.

Of course, it'd be ludicrous to believe that she'd never seen a picture of her mother, which kind of throws that out of the window. But maybe Tremaine had all the pictures of her mother locked away, burned or thrown out when she came into the picture and Cinderella slowly forgot her mother over time? Either way, there's no doubt that the Fairy Godmother is the fair and loving maternal authority that Cinderella's looked for.

I kind of wish they could've found a place to fit "The Dress That My Mother Wore" into the story, and further pointed out the conflict for a proper mother. But, again, unnecessary, so I can see why it didn't make it.

[tsom]

You both make VERY good points. Like you've stated Disney's Divinity, Ever After explored the idea of the abused stepdaughter wanting to be loved and accepted by her stepmother. Both Danielle and Cinderella wanted their stepmother to love them. Like Danielle, Cinderella had known that Lady Tremaine did not love her like a daughter. But deep down inside, a tiny part of her had hoped, always believed, that this woman who had married her father must have some feelings of love and kindness for her. But after Lady Tremaine locked Cinderella in the garret room, that hope was gone. I think the ripping of dress was when Cinderella knew that her stepsisters and stepmother did not love her, and her dreams of a happy family were shattered. I think after the ball, Cinderella realized that she should probably give her stepmother one more chance; but when Lady Tremaine locks Cinderella, her mask was finally removed and Cindy knew her stepmother would NEVER love her.

I don't think Tremaine is Cinderella's surname. I think Lord Tremaine must have been Lady Tremaine's first husband. I don't think Lady Tremaine would have changed her last name to her new husband's last name. I also don't think Cinderella was a noble. She was a gentleman's daughter, so Lady Tremaine and her daughters were ranked higher than Cinderella and her father.

Although the movie is as good as it is, I would have loved some more expansion. More storylines could stem from some of the unused songs. The song "The Dress My Mother Wore" would have been perfect as Cindy's connections to her mother. "In the Middle of a Muddle" or "Sing a Little, Dream a Little" could be used as Cindy's comedic side and her wish to be more than one. "The Face I See in the Night" could have been used to expand the Prince's character. "Dancing on a Cloud" would use to expand the ball scenes, with dialogue leading up to it. That way, people could see how and why Cindy and the Prince fell in love and why this mystery girl was important to the Prince that a (possibly) costly search was made. "I Lost My Heart At the Ball" could have been Cinderella's "I Could Have Danced All Night" moment, and we could see her actually falling for this mystery man and her sadness at the fact that she might never see him again.

[pap64]

Her big crying scene only comes as a response to the dress ripping scene. Even then, I don't think it was the fact that her stepsisters ripped that thing to shreds. After they back off, she just stands there dazed, looking at Tremaine. It's only when Tremaine gives her a smirk and an ironic remark that Cindy loses it, probably because she officially realizes that her stepmother will never love her.

To me, the dress ripping scene is a metaphor for when people destroy your hopes and dreams, and laugh as they do so.

Cindy gains hope when she made the bargain with Lady Tremaine. She believes that if she can finish everything on time and find a dress she can finally go. But when she realizes that she doesn't have a dress and its too late, loses it, only to gain it back when the mice giver her the dress. But she REALLY loses is after the stepsisters destroy it, confirming to her that her family doesn't love her and that it was all a lie.

This is pretty heavy when you think about it. First, it was HER MOTHER'S DRESS. She clearly cherished it as the only thing she has that keeps the memory of her mother alive. And the stepsisters destroy it. How would YOU feel if someone destroyed something that was of worth to you? That thing held a lot of memories of someone special, and they destroy it. Of course you would be crushed.

Then, the bargain that they had made was DESTROYED. She believe that for once in their lives they would be kind to her, at least ONCE. But their vain and jealousy proved her other wise.

Finally, the way Lady Tremaine says "Good night" puts the final nail on the coffin for her.

Again, very heavy and sad. If it wasn't for the fairy godmother rewarding her faith Cindy would've become a bitter and depressed person.

[Disney Duster]

Ah, happiness at others discovering the masterpieceness that is Disney's Cinderella.

This is kinda weird, but Disney's Divinity, I've been reading "The Disney Villain" at my library lately and read that quote and thought along the same lines, just days before you posted in here!

I've been looking closely at Cinderella for a while now because I plan on making a huge post about the entire film in this thread. At first I wondered if some of the things I found were only found by digging too deep, or reading too much into it, but since a lot of you have found similar things, it might really be there. It means there is more depth to this film than most people thought. Take that, other Disney films!

I would also like to point out that even if Ever After explored the idea more, Disney's Cinderella did it first. Well, I think. I can't look at every Cinderella movie made before Disney's. In fact Disney's Cinderella did a lot of things before Ever After, including the idea of Cinderella using her mother's dress, and it getting ripped by a stepfamily member, as pap64 brought up! I, too, thought of the extra hurt at the dress that was ripped belonging to Cinderella's mother. I actually thought of it as a child, and when I "directed" my elementary school friends to "play Cinderella", I told the star to say "And it was my mother's dress, too!" after the shredding. Though Ever After came out in my elementary school years, so maybe it helped me think of that, I can't remember the order.

[pap64]

Disney Duster: I honestly did not see "Cinderella" as the masterpiece it is till the 2005 DVD. I didn't care much for it during my childhood, but can't get enough of it as an adult.

The story is deceptfully (sp?) simple, yet when you analyze it you discover many deep and wonderful things.

For example, if it wasn't for the king wishing for grandkids Cindy wouldn't have escaped the Tremaines!

And the climax! Talk about thrilling!

The music is also wonderful. Its not as operatic as "Sleeping Beauty", but manages to be moving.

Finally, Cinderella herself is awesome. She, like the story, seems very simple at first. But she is very multifaceted in a very subtle way. She is very hopeful, but realistic. She is respectful but can be sarcastic ("the music lesson") and is a hard worker. She is very human and emotes wonderfully (her face when she realizes that she danced with the prince is priceless). In comparison to Snow White she is definitely an improvement.

Cinderella is a Disney film criticized for being "too simple". Yet, watch it a little more closer and you'll learn that subtletly (sp?) can be more meaningful and emotional than theatrics.

[Flanger-Hanger]

"It is easy to dismiss Cinderella as an unremarkable Disney effort, but those who do so obviously haven't seen it recently"

Leonard Maltin, The Disney Films


Guess that applies(ed) to you pap64.

[Disney's Divinity]

Disney Duster: I honestly did not see "Cinderella" as the masterpiece it is till the 2005 DVD. I didn't care much for it during my childhood, but can't get enough of it as an adult.

The story is deceptfully (sp?) simple, yet when you analyze it you discover many deep and wonderful things.
.

I actually have a similar history with Cinderella, but when I first came to this forum I was still rather immature and only really cared for TLM. Over time, I think I've come to accept just about every movie the company's made, even if I still prefer some over others.

And, yes, I think Cinderella has a wonderful amount of depth to it, but I would say that's mostly because of it being a fairy tale, as I find Snow White, Pinocchio, SB, TLM and B&tB to all have similar multi-faceted stories (no, I don't include Aladdin--sorry! ).

[MagicMirror]

The best scene in the film for me is when Lady Tremaine pursues Cinderella to the Tower and locks her in her room. The way the scene is staged, with all those noir-esque shadows; the music, the timing... All of it is carefully calculated to achieve that maximum effect. I vividly remember watching this particular scene as a boy, and how frightening I found it. Lady Tremaine is a magnificent villain and one of the very best - certainly the best from the 50s, though I do have a soft spot for the character of Hook.

I do think the film could have pushed it a little more in terms of style. Mary Blair did some very bold, fun character designs for the film that may have worked very well. The studio instead made it a bit too live-action-y for my tastes in some parts.

In terms of a score, I'm not sure whether to give it a 7/10 or an 8/10, so I'll settle for 7.5/10.

[Disney Duster]

Well pap64, don't be hard on yourself, if you even were. I enjoy the film for many reasons, but a lot of them have to do with childhood memories and preferred visual coolness, not by discoveries of more depth or whatever, as they don't really heighten my experience of the film, emotionally or enjoyably. Though, I'm also not the most emotional person. But they do make me like the film more and feel it's greater.

There was some countdown of greatest animated films that called Cinderella deceptfully simple. It would be nice to think the film is really greater than most critics think because of some subtle stuff they never caught.

Thanks for the quote Flam-Ham, though I've read reviews of the film after the authors just saw it that sound like they still thought it was unimpressive. Whatevs!

Disney's Divinity, well, this is not the thread to go comparing all the depth we find in all the films, and depth is subjective anyway, but I will say I feel the subtle depths in this film trump the "depths" the other films have. It would be nice to know all the depths you think they have in some thread. Glad you didn't include Aladdin, though if you read Film Freak's review you may change your mind.

Thanks MagicMirror for your thoughts on this film. Tsom said while watching the movie on a big screen in a classroom, the larger stepmother was even scarier, especially in close-ups.

I, too, wish occasionally that they kept particular scenes closer to the Mary Blair concepts that inspired them, but for the most part I like what they did over Mary's initial designs, though perhaps it's hard for me to seperate the essence of it from the way she drew it.

The studio instead made it a bit too live-action-y for my tastes in some parts.

I think I recognized that, and I think Cinderella's the most realistic, or perhaps as you said, live-action-y, of the Disney fairy tales, at least in designs. I've thought of, and like to use, the term "industrial" when thinking of Cinderella's world. Maybe that's not the right word...?

In terms of a score, I'm not sure whether to give it a 7/10 or an 8/10, so I'll settle for 7.5/10.

Wah. Well, that's a lot like most other people's scores, it seems. Even though I currently see what seem to be a few imperfections, I would rate the film 10/10, because even masterpieces aren't perfect, and there's no such thing as a perfect film, at least a perfect film that's perfect for everyone. Though if the film should be perfect to me, I don't feel it is right now, but I can't think of any film that I loved every part of. Maybe there is, I dunno. Maybe I need a film all about Disney dust. LOL.

[yukitora]

My sister recently became obsessed with Cinderella and became upset by the fact that there wasn't a Cinderella 4

Although when I asked her if she liked the original or the first sequel better, she said the sequel. I guess it's understandable that the new generation prefers animation closer to Sunday cartoons than what was popular back in the 50s.

Anyhow I always liked the personality given to Cinderella in the film. In the opening scene alone when she doesn't want to wake up, but sees how everyone has gathered around, it's almost as if she puts on a happy facade on as not to disappoint them. And slowly throughout the morning, the support of all the animals changes this "facade" into genuine happiness, only for the human characters to bring her back to reality and remind her where she really is, up to the point where the break her and her whole spirit just collapses.

Of course it's wrong to say that after this point, I kinda lost interest, as in when the film suddenly goes uphill thanks to the fairygodmother, but I did. Although when I as rewatching it with my sister, I liked it a lot better.

I personally think she is by far the most antagonized character in any animated Disney film (given that I haven't seen any other lately ). The key scene to this is what she says to Bruno as he dreams about eating Lucifer - to survive here, you need to adapt to your habitat. She's been so abused and misused, she's come to realize that the only way to survive is through not letting Lady Tremaine and her step sister's comments get to her. Only at the end of the film, she is able to break free of their hold on her life by going back on her initial ideals and outright defy her enemies.

I can see why a lot of people just see Cinderella looking happy, and seeing how good things happen to happen for her, and then theres a happy ending, but behind it all I'm starting to see a great psychologically battle out there.

Though Sleeping Beauty is still my favourite, in all its not-quite-as-deep-as-Cinderella-but-so-much-so-than-SnowWhite glory.

[pap64]

My sister recently became obsessed with Cinderella and became upset by the fact that there wasn't a Cinderella 4

Although when I asked her if she liked the original or the first sequel better, she said the sequel. I guess it's understandable that the new generation prefers animation closer to Sunday cartoons than what was popular back in the 50s.

Anyhow I always liked the personality given to Cinderella in the film. In the opening scene alone when she doesn't want to wake up, but sees how everyone has gathered around, it's almost as if she puts on a happy facade on as not to disappoint them. And slowly throughout the morning, the support of all the animals changes this "facade" into genuine happiness, only for the human characters to bring her back to reality and remind her where she really is, up to the point where the break her and her whole spirit just collapses.

Of course it's wrong to say that after this point, I kinda lost interest, as in when the film suddenly goes uphill thanks to the fairygodmother, but I did. Although when I as rewatching it with my sister, I liked it a lot better.

I personally think she is by far the most antagonized character in any animated Disney film (given that I haven't seen any other lately ). The key scene to this is what she says to Bruno as he dreams about eating Lucifer - to survive here, you need to adapt to your habitat. She's been so abused and misused, she's come to realize that the only way to survive is through not letting Lady Tremaine and her step sister's comments get to her. Only at the end of the film, she is able to break free of their hold on her life by going back on her initial ideals and outright defy her enemies.

I can see why a lot of people just see Cinderella looking happy, and seeing how good things happen to happen for her, and then theres a happy ending, but behind it all I'm starting to see a great psychologically battle out there.

Though Sleeping Beauty is still my favourite, in all its not-quite-as-deep-as-Cinderella-but-so-much-so-than-SnowWhite glory.

Hmm...you make a great point about Cinderella's apparent happiness despite their situation.

I've always noticed how the people who are generally happy, kind, generous and with a great heart are those that have been abused, betrayed and stabbed by life the most. Haven't you noticed that the people who have a normal and decent life tend to complain more and be cynical about everything, while those that are living a sad life are more hopeful. Its weird and fascinating. And yet, its true that the same people who were abused end up making a great difference and being well respected and beloved people.

Wow...I love Cinderella even more! Thanks Yuki!

[Disney's Divinity]

That might be because most people who have led abused lives can only go up from there. But I don't think that makes the emotions of other individuals, who haven't been abused, any less meaningful or deserved.

Disney's Divinity, well, this is not the thread to go comparing all the depth we find in all the films, and depth is subjective anyway, but I will say I feel the subtle depths in this film trump the "depths" the other films have. It would be nice to know all the depths you think they have in some thread. Glad you didn't include Aladdin, though if you read Film Freak's review you may change your mind.

I suppose you could say that if I had listed reasons why they had depth (which wouldn't be for this thread), but you brought the subject up by saying other films didn't have the depth Cinderella has. Which I feel, isn't true, which is what I stated in my post. Also, I was mostly replying to pap64 anyway--my entire post didn't revolve around contradicting you.

[Disney Duster]

Everyone's saying what I've been waiting to say in my big analytical post! Oh, well, I'll still post it eventually. Yay Cinderella love! Though I'm not so sure if Cinderella's just putting on a happy face and singing a happy song just for the animals, I'll think about it. But yea Yuki, I don't think Snow White has nearly as much depth as a lot of the other films, but I'll read the Disney Villain before I judge. It's just what I think right now. It would be a shame to think it has none though, so I can't believe it has none.

EDIT: Well I read the Disney Villain section on Snow White, and it seems the queen is depthful, in fact, Walt was excited about her and the witch's depth. Apparently it was clear to them her motivations and things the audience might not know, like her wanting to marry the Prince but Snow White is the fairer one, and she actually thinks she knows more than the Magic Mirror when she asks it where Snow White is.

ALSO, if I remember correctly, Snow White is very sad when she has to scrub the stairs, but then starts acting happy when she goes to the doves at the well. So, is she putting on a fascade for them at first, or is she really happy all the way through? Aurora also was sad until the animals cheered her up. Fascade at first?

Disney's Divinity, I understand that sometimes people feel, just feel, that there's something there. If you based what you said on just feeling that all the fairy tale films have the same depth, maybe because they're all made by the same studio, that's fine. But if you thought of specific things, I would like to hear them, so, if that's the case, please pm me. Though, even if the other films have the same kind of depth, I still think Cinderella has more of it. But I suppose it's hard to decide because anyone can find depth, it just depends if other people think it's really there or not. So, since it's that subjective, you can pm me a list of depths or I can let it go if you want to. Basically, only pm me if you think you could remember and list all the depths you found...

EDIT: Well it's kind of impossible since you could find new depths any time or dispel any depths you previously thought, and different people will always be finding new depths anyway.

And of course there's depth they intentionally put in to be deep, and depth people find that probably isn't there! It's hard deciding that.

[stewie15]

I am sorry to take this thread and pull a 180 but i have been wondering for a while now whats wrong with cindys restoration? Yes its a little bright but is it really that bad? I also heard alot about her dress/hair colours. Could someone please explain this to me. One agian I am really sorry for completly changing the subject.

[yukitora]

^I've never actually seen another version of Cinderella other than the 05 DVD, so I actually enjoyed the new restoration quite a bit, but I've read that the original film used to have a more "organic" look, with deeper colours, darker settings, grain, etc. I'm sure someone else will elaborate much much further


Disney Duster, I don't think it's necessary to argue that maybe "all the princess put on a facade" (though that is very interesting) and I actually wrote "it's almost as if it she put on a facade, but then it turned into genuine happiness through the animals support", I didn't mean she's only singing it for the animals. Anyhow, I can't wait for your big (massive surely) post! Make sure you include some pretty pictures just for the sake of it

Also, where's this Disney Villain thing? I'd love to read it!