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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:31 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
So Trump refers to Native Americans as Pocahontas? I didn't know.

You're right about her position, but The Three Commentears has a different take. In their commentary for the film, they mention that Disney's version was their introduction to Pocahontas (at least for the two of them). Which was actually the case for me, however. I remember seeing a teaser for the movie in January 1995 (on The Aristocats VHS), without knowing anything about her ethnicity. When I learned that she was a Native American, my thought was that she didn't look like the stereotype of one (since Native Americans can look like different ethnicities) and due to the progressions of depicting non-White, exotic regions with Aladdin and The Lion King, Pocahontas felt regressive, since Disney had explored the Native American community before in what has now become a predominant White environment (*cough, Peter Pan, cough*).
But to be fair, Pocahontas is about non-Caucasian people after all, so it passes for it. And please don't hate me for my non-politically correct comment, I'm just summarizing what my thoughts were at a child (because I do feel genuniely sorry for the stereotypical portrayals of Native Americans in Hollywood). I can link you that teaser, if you want to; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO9dPoXYWNc

Really? I didn't know about the latter. I guess that (stereotypically) Mulan would have a representation that was suitable (no pun intended), due to being at her own region. But you summarize what has been something that I've analyzed with Mulan lately, that her movie is essentially an adaptation about a story that is not known for a non-Universal audience.

I haven't seen Brave in years either, but regardless of it's problems, I did like it, overall. So I guess it's somewhat of a guilty pleasure :P

Thanks :D. But regardless of my previous rants, people do still compare the characters of Pocahontas and Mulan, mostly stereotypically, due to them being non-Caucasian leads. And that's what several critics have rambled about, too.

True, but we have discussed that before. Yet Pocahontas got criticized for the racial stereotypes, more than Hunchback. Besides, Pocahontas has a fair amount of even share of characters that are either Natives or English, whereas in Hunchback most of the characters are white Parisians (with the exception of Esmeralda and Clopin, of course). In fact, Hunchback was too politically correct to portray the gypsies as a persecuted people.

Not quite. Both The Aristocats and The Great Mouse Detective were given specific dates of the years their stories takes places on. The funny thing is that both were released on VHS for the first time in Norway in 1995, so Pocahontas being released theatrically that year followed their synergy :P. Later on Atlantis would duplicate to cite the year it takes place in. Yet Hunchback's year is never confirmed in the movie.

Yeah, I felt Mulan's part in her sequel was prototypical, but still something that suited her, due to her nature was to somewhat defy her traditions and norms in her first movie, no matter how you put it. And yes, I know Chinese audiences criticized the film and character for being too westernized and perhaps she was that to them. But for a non-Asian, I thought there was plenty of Chinese and Asian flavor in the film. Heck, I felt there was more dedication to steep the film in an Asian culture than Disney done for Europeans cultures (though let's not forget that the creators of Moana wanted to steep their film in Polynesian culture, following the mantra of having their culture swallow the American one).

I know that New Orleans was chosen because of Lasseter. And it's a pity that Disney never managed to fulfill to make their own animated version of Aida. Had it been released at the prime of hand drawn animation, it would've been an intriguing project.

True. I don't hate her royal title with a burning passion, I just find it contrived. But I still remember that the complaints about Tiana's progression and royal weren't that huge. At least from IMDb users, since I used to follow IMDb more at the time. Of course I know about the rants about her not being black enough, but the complaints about the controversy that Tiana represents haven't been as huge, in my opinion. Anika Noni Rose has even talked about it in one of the interviews she did on The View; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBGGp6vIeM. It's a pity that Sade won't be a hand drawn property.

True, but a secondary character can be fleshed out as well.

Perhaps, but they're obligated to do so, considering that we live in a politically correct, Internet-scrutinizing era. And due to all the havoc Aladdin originally got , it will get more ;)

I know about the complaints about Jasmine's regressive nature, but she was still praised for being independent in her own right. But remember that Ariel was praised of her independence, too.

No, they're translated in Norwegian. In a proper way, though.

Big and big. I do have my nostalgic bias for it, though. And no offense, but I've already replied about Miranda's exclusion; It was a pity, though I didn't utterly despise her exclusion either.

I liked that pairing, due to them being my favorite characters in the show. But I disliked Jackson's overall treatment of Oliver.

To be fair, Miley Cyrus was never downright spiteful and mean towards the rest of the world as the character of Miley Steward. She did a couple of scandals, but were overall not a particularly hostile person. Though I remember that she used to rant (more than any other Hollywood celebrity that I've seen) about haters more than once in her prime (and don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting haters, I'm just citing this objectively). Apparently in 2013 she changed her attitude completely and said that haters kept her motivated. And yes, 2013 was the year where she truly gave controversy a new and overt vision.

It was around that time where I got acquainted to Taylor Swift. Her song was fine, though and it was back then where her music was mostly country influenced. Back at the time, I used to like Taylor, more than now, though her music is still fine, though.

The Climb was not an end credit song, it was a perfomance in the actual movie. But I personally think it should've been an end credit-song, since it didn't fit the movie and just kept slowing it down (in fact, it would've been more reasonant in a more serious and harrowing plot than something as lite as Hannah Montana). It was a hit song back then, but I've always found the melody to be utterly dreadful. Btw, do you like that song?

True, but the Internet was like that a decade ago. I'm glad that I've outgrown the phase of being completely shocked by users hostility and mob mentality. And frankly, the Hannah trolls were my first real exposure to the hostility of IMDb trolls.

No, Macy was the brunette and was played by Nicole Anderson. The blonde girl was played by Chelsea Staub Kane. She was likable. Lately I saw her in the sitcom Baby Daddy. Tiffany Thorton was a fine actress and managed to play a snooty bitch, regardless of her likable nature. Meaghan Martin was suitable to her role.

More specifically, there is an American Congresswoman, Elizabeth Warren who has some Native American ancestry so Trump denigrates her by calling her Pocahontas. Interestingly enough, the real life Pocahontas has a rich descendant who is a Trump supporter.

I'm not sure what country the Three Commentears are from, but I know you are not from the U.S. so maybe that is why your introduction to Pocahontas was from the Disney film. It might also be a matter of age since you've told me that you're older than me. Having gone to elementary/primary school in the 2000s, I can attest to the fact that in American schools, most children learn a little about Pocahontas. Honestly, the Disney film is the reason most people continue to remember her though since by high school, since in high school, most people thought that she and John Smith were a couple. Which to be fair, isn't a myth that the Disney film created but it certainly cemented it into the public consciousness.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint about Pocahontas when you were a child and first saw the teaser. And thanks for posting the teaser as well! I hadn't seen that one before. It's funny that as a child, you felt Pocahontas was regressive because Native Americans had technically already been featured in a Disney film before (Peter Pan) even though they were just supporting characters. I imagine that you would have felt even more strongly if Disney had done the Hiawatha movie that had been planned way back in the 1940s. The bonus feature talking about that movie is included in the Pocahontas Blu-Ray btw, although I'm sure you can find the video on YouTube.

Hunchback characters are barely present in the American parks. They used to be more prominent in Paris (for obvious reasons), but I don't think they have much presence there anymore either. I know in Tokyo they have an Easter parade which features Esmeralda and Clopin but I don't know if they are part of it every year or if it was just done for one year. Luckily, I think in the American parks, Esmeralda at least is slowly gaining a reintroduction. Probably won't amount to anything, but in Disneyland's Fantastmic, she was featured in the finale on the riverboat with all the other characters. I was really surprised to see her! Afterwards, I checked and found out that normally Tiana is in that spot but for whatever reason, Esmeralda had taken her place that night as I think substitutions like these are normal every so often. It was nice to see Esmeralda get what is essentially A-Lister status with the rest of the Disney characters. Speaking of Fantasmic, the Tokyo one has a really interesting lineup. Rather than one ship, they have three, and they most prominently include the princesses with their princes. Clarice and Marie are heavily included as well over more popular characters which just goes to show how huge they both are in Japan.

I like the score and songs for Brave a lot as well as the visuals. The story and overall characterizations are the weak point for me, and the humor wasn't to my taste.

Another reason Mulan and Pocahontas get compared so often is because they are practically invisible in the DP franchise lol.

Quasi also counts as a Romani character in Hunchback alongside Esmeralda and Clopin. I don't quite understand what you mean though that Disney's Hunchback was too politically correct to show the gypsies as a persecuted people. I think the movie makes very clear that they are persecuted for their race and lifestyle through the demonization of Frollo and the finale brings all the Parisians, gypsies and nongypsies, together to end his reign over the city. Hence, why Clopin and the rest of the gypsies locked in the cage are freed to help fight the guards.

I'm not surprised I forgot to mention that The Aristocats and The Great Mouse Detective both have specific years they are set in, since they are both Dark Age films lol. Interesting pattern that both were introduced in Norway the same year that Pocahontas came out. Disney's more "modern" films tend to be better about specific years. Atlantis and TPATF also get dates since they are set in the early 1900s, much like the two films mentioned above which are from a similar era. I think Mary Poppins gets a specific date too. Hunchback's year is never mentioned in the film, but the Art book does mention it.

Mulan had a tendency to defy norms, but I'm not sure even she would try to outright break up the marriages of the emperor's three daughters in the first film. You bring up an interesting point when you say that as a non-Asian, you got plenty of Chinese flavor in the film. I'd argue that half the problem stems from this, because Disney just took anything even remotely Chinese and flung it into the film. I've read some interesting stuff from native Chinese viewers who wrote about how warped the history is in Disney's Mulan, and how they get lots of elements wrong such as how the culture or geography differs in the North versus the South. I imagine that the live-action film will be a lot more accurate, otherwise the Chinese market will be otherwise indifferent to it. Moana actually involved a trust group of Polynesians who came together and guided or corrected decisions to make the culture in Moana more accurate so I'd say that was more authentic than anything in Mulan which was just like visiting the Chinese section in a local grocery store. Although even Moana get a little bit of flack for merging so many Polynesian and Oceanic cultures together rather than just focusing on one.

A hand-drawn Aida is one of the films that I wish we could have seen most from Disney's scrapped pile of projects. I'd be fine with a live-action version too but I really don't want Beyonce or Christina Aguilera in the roles. I doubt they'd cast the latter in the role of an Egyptian princess in this day and age anyway, but even regardless of race, I'm not a fan of hers. Beyonce too, I find overrated, and she wouldn't be my choice but I imagine Disney would grab her up in a second.

That's funny that the controversy behind Tiana hasn't been that huge since her film was one of the most controversial Disney ones in the past few years. I would have liked a hand-drawn Sade film too. I'm glad it's live-action though over CGI.

It's true that secondary characters can be well done, but we've had this discussion about Nani before on whether or not she was well developed. I think we'll have to agree to disagree since I know you don't find her fleshed out well whereas I think she is one of the film's highlights. But if I remember correctly, you aren't a fan of Lilo & Stitch anyway, whereas it's my favorite 2000s Disney film, so I guess we're both biased lol. Between the two Polynesian films that Disney has done, which do you prefer overall: Moana or Lilo & Stitch? My clear favorite is Lilo & Stitch. I don't think Moana is a bad movie, but I don't find myself loving it either.

It's interesting that you talk about how the live-action Aladdin has to seem more progressive (like how BATB tried in 2017) because all I'm seeing online is complaints about how the new Aladdin is going to be trash for being too politically correct with a "feminist" Jasmine, nevermind that she was always feminist.

Yes, Ariel was praised for her independence but she was criticized a lot back then as well and that criticism has only grown over years. Regardless of what critics say, she is still my favorite and probably always will be.

That's nice to hear that in Norway, the Disney songs are fully translated in a correct way. I know sometimes they can get lazy with the translations and dubbing.

Sorry about repeating my Miranda question. I actually meant to ask you if you knew why Miranda was cut from the film. For some reason, I worded it to ask you the same question I already had. Blame it on exams lol. Also, do you know if the film was meant to serve as a sort of finale for the TV series? If so, I'm surprised they didn't try and do another Hannah Montana film to serve as the finale for that show.

I never really liked Jackson and while I liked Oliver in the beginning, he felt superfluous by the middle of the show. I don't really remember how Jackson treated him but probably it was as bad as Miley and Lily treated him towards the end. The only notable storyline I remember Oliver having in the last few years of the show was his vegetarian or vegan girlfriend.

To be honest, after I lost interest in Hannah Montana, I stopped following Miley so the only time she popped up in my radar was with her bizarre stunts. You're right that I don't think she's had any major feuds with anyone or anything like that.

I'm not a fan of country music so the country girl shtick was boring for me. I prefer her more pop-oriented songs from the last few years. Probably also because in high school, they used to replay her latest albums over and over so I got used to listening to her, unlike with her early works.

What scene was The Climb sung in during the movie? I remember it got a lot of radioplay at the time. I like the song but I don't love it either. It's not my favorite out of her repertoire. To be honest, back in the day, I much preferred her Hannah songs over her Miley songs.

I remember the Nicole Anderson character now. She was in Mean Girls 2 as well which is what I mainly know her from. I honestly don't remember her role in J.O.N.A.S. probably because I never watched the show but I do remember that she was in it now. Sadly, the Disney Channel actresses who weren't Miley, Selena, or Demi from that time period all sort of disappeared. They have some projects here and there but nothing too big.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Hello again and I know that it's been a while since I've replied. But I've been gone on vacations, so therefore I haven't been able to reply.

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I'm not sure what country the Three Commentears are from, but I know you are not from the U.S. so maybe that is why your introduction to Pocahontas was from the Disney film. It might also be a matter of age since you've told me that you're older than me. Having gone to elementary/primary school in the 2000s, I can attest to the fact that in American schools, most children learn a little about Pocahontas. Honestly, the Disney film is the reason most people continue to remember her though since by high school, since in high school, most people thought that she and John Smith were a couple. Which to be fair, isn't a myth that the Disney film created but it certainly cemented it into the public consciousness.

The Three Commentears are American. And despite their aforementioned rant, I've heard that Pocahontas was a subject for most schools prior to Disney's movie. So I guess it was before your generation as well.

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Thanks for sharing your viewpoint about Pocahontas when you were a child and first saw the teaser. And thanks for posting the teaser as well! I hadn't seen that one before. It's funny that as a child, you felt Pocahontas was regressive because Native Americans had technically already been featured in a Disney film before (Peter Pan) even though they were just supporting characters. I imagine that you would have felt even more strongly if Disney had done the Hiawatha movie that had been planned way back in the 1940s. The bonus feature talking about that movie is included in the Pocahontas Blu-Ray btw, although I'm sure you can find the video on YouTube.

You're welcome. I know about Hiawatha, but I know that it was scrapped due to tone problems. However, it would've been interesting to see it, due to how Hiawatha is after all a Disney property (of course I know about the character from the comics). But I've seen the documentary about Hiawatha on the Pocahontas Blu Ray and the outline was pretty grim, even for a Disney movie (his wife dies). Yet I felt the story was a little incongruous.

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Hunchback characters are barely present in the American parks. They used to be more prominent in Paris (for obvious reasons), but I don't think they have much presence there anymore either. I know in Tokyo they have an Easter parade which features Esmeralda and Clopin but I don't know if they are part of it every year or if it was just done for one year. Luckily, I think in the American parks, Esmeralda at least is slowly gaining a reintroduction. Probably won't amount to anything, but in Disneyland's Fantastmic, she was featured in the finale on the riverboat with all the other characters. I was really surprised to see her! Afterwards, I checked and found out that normally Tiana is in that spot but for whatever reason, Esmeralda had taken her place that night as I think substitutions like these are normal every so often. ¨It was nice to see Esmeralda get what is essentially A-Lister status with the rest of the Disney characters.

Really? Nice.

Quote:
Speaking of Fantasmic, the Tokyo one has a really interesting lineup. Rather than one ship, they have three, and they most prominently include the princesses with their princes. Clarice and Marie are heavily included as well over more popular characters which just goes to show how huge they both are in Japan.

Who's Clarice and Marie?

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Another reason Mulan and Pocahontas get compared so often is because they are practically invisible in the DP franchise lol.

Yeah.

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Quasi also counts as a Romani character in Hunchback alongside Esmeralda and Clopin.

True, but that has been up for debate. I used to wonder why Quasi was the only ginger gypsy, whereas most of the others had black hair. And now in our scrutinizing era of social medias, it has been debated to death.

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I don't quite understand what you mean though that Disney's Hunchback was too politically correct to show the gypsies as a persecuted people. I think the movie makes very clear that they are persecuted for their race and lifestyle through the demonization of Frollo and the finale brings all the Parisians, gypsies and nongypsies, together to end his reign over the city. Hence, why Clopin and the rest of the gypsies locked in the cage are freed to help fight the guards.

Perhaps politically correct is not a right term, but the movie makes sure to side with the gypsies as being a persecuted race and while their bad traits are shown, it never portraits them as a people who's against the whites (unlike Pocahontas, who actually for better and for worse, showed the tension from both sides).

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Hunchback's year is never mentioned in the film, but the Art book does mention it.

I know, but some other books mentions it as well. I think the comics and the Disney's Art of Animation-book.

Speaking of which, do you have many Art of-books from Disney?

Quote:
Mulan had a tendency to defy norms, but I'm not sure even she would try to outright break up the marriages of the emperor's three daughters in the first film. You bring up an interesting point when you say that as a non-Asian, you got plenty of Chinese flavor in the film. I'd argue that half the problem stems from this, because Disney just took anything even remotely Chinese and flung it into the film. I've read some interesting stuff from native Chinese viewers who wrote about how warped the history is in Disney's Mulan, and how they get lots of elements wrong such as how the culture or geography differs in the North versus the South. I imagine that the live-action film will be a lot more accurate, otherwise the Chinese market will be otherwise indifferent to it.

I know the controversy around the accuracy against the historical events of Mulan. Especially since she lived before The Great Wall was finished.

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Moana actually involved a trust group of Polynesians who came together and guided or corrected decisions to make the culture in Moana more accurate so I'd say that was more authentic than anything in Mulan which was just like visiting the Chinese section in a local grocery store. Although even Moana get a little bit of flack for merging so many Polynesian and Oceanic cultures together rather than just focusing on one.

Yeah, I know. Yet I haven't really figured what differentiates certain Polynesian cultures. However, I know there's been some controversy around Moana, but not as huge as other non-Caucasian Disney movies (*cough, Aladdin, cough*).

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A hand-drawn Aida is one of the films that I wish we could have seen most from Disney's scrapped pile of projects. I'd be fine with a live-action version too but I really don't want Beyonce or Christina Aguilera in the roles. I doubt they'd cast the latter in the role of an Egyptian princess in this day and age anyway, but even regardless of race, I'm not a fan of hers. Beyonce too, I find overrated, and she wouldn't be my choice but I imagine Disney would grab her up in a second.

I used to like Christina Aguilera in my late teens, but now I don't care for her. But I can't picture her in one of the roles.

Quote:
It's true that secondary characters can be well done, but we've had this discussion about Nani before on whether or not she was well developed. I think we'll have to agree to disagree since I know you don't find her fleshed out well whereas I think she is one of the film's highlights. But if I remember correctly, you aren't a fan of Lilo & Stitch anyway, whereas it's my favorite 2000s Disney film, so I guess we're both biased lol. Between the two Polynesian films that Disney has done, which do you prefer overall: Moana or Lilo & Stitch? My clear favorite is Lilo & Stitch. I don't think Moana is a bad movie, but I don't find myself loving it either.

I prefer Moana. I don't hate Lilo & Stitch, but I've already mentioned it's hampering flaws.

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Yes, Ariel was praised for her independence but she was criticized a lot back then as well and that criticism has only grown over years. Regardless of what critics say, she is still my favorite and probably always will be.

No matter how much criticism Ariel gets, she has her huge, devoted fanbase.

Quote:
Sorry about repeating my Miranda question. I actually meant to ask you if you knew why Miranda was cut from the film. For some reason, I worded it to ask you the same question I already had. Blame it on exams lol. Also, do you know if the film was meant to serve as a sort of finale for the TV series?

That's allright. I know that Lalaine was actually shooting another movie, so therefore she was absent. Yet I guess the movie must have been a finale to the series, yet the show still aired after the movie was released.

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If so, I'm surprised they didn't try and do another Hannah Montana film to serve as the finale for that show

Me too. I know there were some rumors about it, but they never went for it.

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I'm not a fan of country music so the country girl shtick was boring for me. I prefer her more pop-oriented songs from the last few years. Probably also because in high school, they used to replay her latest albums over and over so I got used to listening to her, unlike with her early works.

I actually happen to like some bluegrass and some country, but not the sappy ballads.

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What scene was The Climb sung in during the movie? I remember it got a lot of radioplay at the time. I like the song but I don't love it either. It's not my favorite out of her repertoire. To be honest, back in the day, I much preferred her Hannah songs over her Miley songs.

The Climb was played at the end of the movie, being the climatic song that was played when Miley revealed her identity. And just like you, I preferred the Hannah songs over Miley songs. I liked Miley's music at the beginning, but some of her songs can be truly awful at their very worst, which was a reason for straying away from her music when she was at the end of her Hannah-phase.

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I remember the Nicole Anderson character now. She was in Mean Girls 2 as well which is what I mainly know her from. I honestly don't remember her role in J.O.N.A.S. probably because I never watched the show but I do remember that she was in it now. Sadly, the Disney Channel actresses who weren't Miley, Selena, or Demi from that time period all sort of disappeared. They have some projects here and there but nothing too big.
[/quote]
True, but that tends to happen with most DC stars. Most of them are has-beens.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:52 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Hello again and I know that it's been a while since I've replied. But I've been gone on vacations, so therefore I haven't been able to reply.

The Three Commentears are American. And despite their aforementioned rant, I've heard that Pocahontas was a subject for most schools prior to Disney's movie. So I guess it was before your generation as well.

You're welcome. I know about Hiawatha, but I know that it was scrapped due to tone problems. However, it would've been interesting to see it, due to how Hiawatha is after all a Disney property (of course I know about the character from the comics). But I've seen the documentary about Hiawatha on the Pocahontas Blu Ray and the outline was pretty grim, even for a Disney movie (his wife dies). Yet I felt the story was a little incongruous.

Who's Clarice and Marie?

True, but that has been up for debate. I used to wonder why Quasi was the only ginger gypsy, whereas most of the others had black hair. And now in our scrutinizing era of social medias, it has been debated to death.

Perhaps politically correct is not a right term, but the movie makes sure to side with the gypsies as being a persecuted race and while their bad traits are shown, it never portraits them as a people who's against the whites (unlike Pocahontas, who actually for better and for worse, showed the tension from both sides).

I know, but some other books mentions it as well. I think the comics and the Disney's Art of Animation-book.

Speaking of which, do you have many Art of-books from Disney?

Yeah, I know. Yet I haven't really figured what differentiates certain Polynesian cultures. However, I know there's been some controversy around Moana, but not as huge as other non-Caucasian Disney movies (*cough, Aladdin, cough*).

I used to like Christina Aguilera in my late teens, but now I don't care for her. But I can't picture her in one of the roles.

No matter how much criticism Ariel gets, she has her huge, devoted fanbase.

That's allright. I know that Lalaine was actually shooting another movie, so therefore she was absent. Yet I guess the movie must have been a finale to the series, yet the show still aired after the movie was released.

The Climb was played at the end of the movie, being the climatic song that was played when Miley revealed her identity. And just like you, I preferred the Hannah songs over Miley songs. I liked Miley's music at the beginning, but some of her songs can be truly awful at their very worst, which was a reason for straying away from her music when she was at the end of her Hannah-phase.

True, but that tends to happen with most DC stars. Most of them are has-beens.

Hi. I was on holidays too so I completely understand your absence. I almost didn't notice your latest response because it was buried under so many new posts.

Thanks for confirming that the Three Commentears are American. I think for the most part, Americans are well aware of who Pocahontas is even if they are more familiar with her as John Smith's lover than as John Rolfe's wife.

I liked the concepts for Hiawatha especially the idea that the film would be somewhat similar to Fantasia with an emphasis on visuals over story. Certainly it couldn't be worse representation for Native Americans than Peter Pan was. I wasn't aware though that Hiawatha was a character featured in comic books.

Clarice is the female chipmunk who is Chip and Dale's love interest. She only ever appeared in one short (Two Chips and a Miss) but she's become a breakout character in Tokyo. She's almost as featured there as Mickey, Minnie, Donald, Daisy, Goofy, and Pluto, maybe even more than Chip and Dale themselves who are already pretty prominent. Every major Disney event tends to feature her. Marie is the white kitten from The Aristocats. She's huge there as well.

I never really questioned Quasi's atypical appearance from his Romani background. I always assumed that his lighter skintone and red hair was part of the deformity.

I think the reason that Romani are never portrayed as being against the whites is because their context is so much different from the Native Americans in Pocahontas. In Pocahontas, the English settlers come to the land of the Native Americans and try to take it from them. Thus, both sides can confront each other on equal terms. But in Hunchback, the Romani are a minority race in Europe and they don't really have the means to challenge the upper classes like Minister Frollo.

I didn't know that some comics and Disney's Art of Animation book also confirm the year that Hunchback is set in so thanks for that. I own some Disney art books but not as many as I wish I could. I own the Hunchback art book, specifically the slipcase edition, and the two Snow White ones pictured in this link.
https://genevaanderson.files.wordpress. ... -books.jpg
I've also got The Disney Villain and the first two volumes of The Hidden Art of Disney books.

There are a few making of/art of books that I still want to get for Beauty and the Beast, Pinocchio, Pocahontas, The Lion King, Tarzan, Cinderella, and maybe the Fantasia films.

Elena of Avalor got similar criticism as Moana for taking different Latin American cultures and blending them together making her as authentic as Taco Bell.

Christina Aguilera was meant to play Amneris in Aida way back when it was considered as a film. I think Disney wouldn't be tonedeaf in this day and age though to cast her as an Egyptian princess.

Ariel is definitely one of the most popular princesses to this day. Only Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters have come to match her since the end of the 90s.

I didn't realize Lalaine had another movie which is why she couldn't be in The Lizzie McGuire Movie. Thanks for confirming!

I didn't remember that The Climb played during the scene where Hannah exposes her true identity as Miley. I guess it really wasn't memorable enough for me lol besides how absurd the idea was.

You're right that outside of the very few huge Disney Channel stars, most of them end up fading into obscurity.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:50 pm 
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Hi there. I know that you've pleaded me to not to beg for excuse, but I have to apologize once again for not replying sooner. I've been awfully busy lately.

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Thanks for confirming that the Three Commentears are American.

You're Welcome :)

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I liked the concepts for Hiawatha especially the idea that the film would be somewhat similar to Fantasia with an emphasis on visuals over story.

Really? I thought Sleeping Beauty filled that bill as well, since some people (and even Disney themselves) were putting that it were emphasis on visuals than a story.

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Certainly it couldn't be worse representation for Native Americans than Peter Pan was.

Nope. The Three Commentears cited that Pocahontas was made as an excuse for what they did with the Natives in Peter Pan

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I wasn't aware though that Hiawatha was a character featured in comic books.

Really? At least he's a different character than from Walt's original version. But here it is; https://www.google.no/search?ei=yhdaXIPgH4jNrgTRyrmgDA&q=Hiawatha+Disney&oq=Hiawatha+Disney&gs_l=psy-ab.3...6215.7187..7499...0.0..0.0.0.......0....1..gws-wiz._Y63aUA8J7A

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Clarice is the female chipmunk who is Chip and Dale's love interest. She only ever appeared in one short (Two Chips and a Miss) but she's become a breakout character in Tokyo. She's almost as featured there as Mickey, Minnie, Donald, Daisy, Goofy, and Pluto, maybe even more than Chip and Dale themselves who are already pretty prominent. Every major Disney event tends to feature her.

OK, I didn't know. Thanks

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I never really questioned Quasi's atypical appearance from his Romani background. I always assumed that his lighter skintone and red hair was part of the deformity.

Could be.

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I think the reason that Romani are never portrayed as being against the whites is because their context is so much different from the Native Americans in Pocahontas. In Pocahontas, the English settlers come to the land of the Native Americans and try to take it from them. Thus, both sides can confront each other on equal terms. But in Hunchback, the Romani are a minority race in Europe and they don't really have the means to challenge the upper classes like Minister Frollo.

True.

What are your thoughts about finally getting an live action update of Hunchback? I was pretty astonished when it was announced, but I'm still glad, nonetheless. I just hope they'll find a suitable cast. But it's a pity that it won't have songs from the stage versions, since I thought those songs would've made a good fit to the movie.

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I didn't know that some comics and Disney's Art of Animation book also confirm the year that Hunchback is set in so thanks for that.

You're welcome, once again.

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I own the Hunchback art book, specifically the slipcase edition, and the two Snow White ones pictured in this link.
https://genevaanderson.files.wordpress. ... -books.jpg

Oh, I own those books, too. I'm not trying to brag, but I happen to own a lot of Disney books, actually. But of course not every single one.

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Elena of Avalor got similar criticism as Moana for taking different Latin American cultures and blending them together making her as authentic as Taco Bell.

True. Remember that Sofia the First was originally labeled to be the first Latina Princess, which just happened to be a rumor. And then came one to actually fit the bill. I remember there was one that mentioned as this board that Latin American cultures are usually perceived to be a homogenous pot, which is true.

Personally, I thought that Elena looked like a Latina version of Jasmine. Do you agree with that?

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Christina Aguilera was meant to play Amneris in Aida way back when it was considered as a film. I think Disney wouldn't be tonedeaf in this day and age though to cast her as an Egyptian princess.

True, but I wouldn't like to see her as an Egyptian Princess. For PC-reasons, hahaha.

Speaking of which, what are your thoughts about the leaking picture from Frozen 2? I found it to be underwhelming and generic. Even the leaked images from the first movie were better than this picture.

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Ariel is definitely one of the most popular princesses to this day. Only Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters have come to match her since the end of the 90s.

I've read somewhere that Cinderella, Snow White and Belle were among the most popular as well. But you've right, Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters are popular. Rapunzel's popularity is especially evident, but perhaps not as questionable, due to her being an easily marketable Princess (and cough, a Caucasian one, cough).

What are your thoughts about Elsa being in the Princess-franchise, due to her being the lone Queen?

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I didn't realize Lalaine had another movie which is why she couldn't be in The Lizzie McGuire Movie. Thanks for confirming!

You're welcome.

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I didn't remember that The Climb played during the scene where Hannah exposes her true identity as Miley. I guess it really wasn't memorable enough for me lol besides how absurd the idea was.

What's truly absurd is how The Climb is meant to be the culmination of Miley's own self-identity journey and how it's about what she's learned back on her road. And afterwards she's urged to be Hannah, just to please those who won't have their dreams crushed. It made The Climb less resonant that it should've been. It makes the so-called depth of Hannah Montana The Movie cheap and contrived.

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You're right that outside of the very few huge Disney Channel stars, most of them end up fading into obscurity.

True. I thought that Lindsay Lohan was going to be more relevant when she become older, but she wasted it. I thought that Miley was going to fade into obscurity for some reason, but she wasn't (though the buzz regarding her has calmed down now).

Speaking of which, have you noticed that the exposure of the current Disney Channel stars isn't as overwhelming as it used to be?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:33 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Hi there. I know that you've pleaded me to not to beg for excuse, but I have to apologize once again for not replying sooner. I've been awfully busy lately.

Really? I thought Sleeping Beauty filled that bill as well, since some people (and even Disney themselves) were putting that it were emphasis on visuals than a story.

Nope. The Three Commentears cited that Pocahontas was made as an excuse for what they did with the Natives in Peter Pan

Really? At least he's a different character than from Walt's original version. But here it is; https://www.google.no/search?ei=yhdaXIPgH4jNrgTRyrmgDA&q=Hiawatha+Disney&oq=Hiawatha+Disney&gs_l=psy-ab.3...6215.7187..7499...0.0..0.0.0.......0....1..gws-wiz._Y63aUA8J7A

What are your thoughts about finally getting an live action update of Hunchback? I was pretty astonished when it was announced, but I'm still glad, nonetheless. I just hope they'll find a suitable cast. But it's a pity that it won't have songs from the stage versions, since I thought those songs would've made a good fit to the movie.

Oh, I own those books, too. I'm not trying to brag, but I happen to own a lot of Disney books, actually. But of course not every single one.

True. Remember that Sofia the First was originally labeled to be the first Latina Princess, which just happened to be a rumor. And then came one to actually fit the bill. I remember there was one that mentioned as this board that Latin American cultures are usually perceived to be a homogenous pot, which is true.

Personally, I thought that Elena looked like a Latina version of Jasmine. Do you agree with that?

True, but I wouldn't like to see her (Christina Aguilera) as an Egyptian Princess. For PC-reasons, hahaha.

Speaking of which, what are your thoughts about the leaking picture from Frozen 2? I found it to be underwhelming and generic. Even the leaked images from the first movie were better than this picture.

I've read somewhere that Cinderella, Snow White and Belle were among the most popular as well. But you've right, Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters are popular. Rapunzel's popularity is especially evident, but perhaps not as questionable, due to her being an easily marketable Princess (and cough, a Caucasian one, cough).

What are your thoughts about Elsa being in the Princess-franchise, due to her being the lone Queen?

What's truly absurd is how The Climb is meant to be the culmination of Miley's own self-identity journey and how it's about what she's learned back on her road. And afterwards she's urged to be Hannah, just to please those who won't have their dreams crushed. It made The Climb less resonant that it should've been. It makes the so-called depth of Hannah Montana The Movie cheap and contrived.

True. I thought that Lindsay Lohan was going to be more relevant when she become older, but she wasted it. I thought that Miley was going to fade into obscurity for some reason, but she wasn't (though the buzz regarding her has calmed down now).

Speaking of which, have you noticed that the exposure of the current Disney Channel stars isn't as overwhelming as it used to be?


Hey, it's been a while. I'll stop saying you don't need to apologize because I know you do anyway and I also know that if the roles were reversed, I would be apologizing as well lol. Glad you're back though because I've missed our chats!

Yes, Sleeping Beauty also fits the type of movie that places emphasis on visuals and music over character and story. I'd argue that Pocahontas does something similar in the 90s. That would explain why both films are so polarizing and criticized for flat characters and boring storylines.

I can definitely see the argument that Pocahontas was made to make up for Native American representation. One could even argue that The Princess and the Frog was also made to make up for Song of the South. Ironically enough, both Pocahontas and TPATF got heavy race-based criticism as well for being too politically correct. It's not surprising to me that Disney gets the most flack for being racist when it comes to portraying American minorities than other cultures (China, the Middle East, Polynesia, etc.) The U.S. has a long history of oppression and ill-treatment of minorities and this comes out in films as well.

Oh, when you meant that Hiawatha was a character in comic books, you meant the one from the Silly Symphonies. I'm familiar with that Hiawatha and his short. I know a lot of the Silly Symphonies characters used to appear in comics alongside other classic characters like Donald, Mickey, the dwarfs, etc. I assumed earlier that Disney had created a more adult version of Hiawatha to appear in the comics.

Speaking of Disney shorts, do you have any favorite ones? I feel like they are very underrated these days. Disney doesn't so much with them except for the Three Little Pigs which does get some presence in the Disney Parks.

Here are two images I found from the Disney Store of Japan. They showcase who the popular characters in Japan are. Strangely, I've noticed that Japan has an aversion to the jungle characters. Even though the Walt-era films are loved, I never see anything Jungle Book or Lion King related there, let alone Tarzan which can't have Disney merchandise anymore.
https://store-resources-disneyjp.akamai ... _BADGE.jpg
https://store-resources-disneyjp.akamai ... _7__8_.jpg

I'm very excited for a live-action Hunchback. I've been hoping for one since Cinderella and since I saw Notre Dame briefly in the live-action BATB. I'm okay that they aren't including stage songs even though I really like them. I just hope that Disney will include some of the deleted songs mainly Someday and In a Place of Miracles. I'm a huge fan of both and I hope that being in the stage adaptation doesn't mean they'll be cut from the film as well. A Guy Like You needs to remain deleted though.

Lol, you're not bragging by saying that you own a lot of Disney books. I've only recently started to collect them myself since when I was younger, I would just look at them for the pictures. What's your favorite Disney book?

If I remember correctly, Sofia was branded as the first Hispanic princess and there was a lot of controversy because of her Anglicized appearance. Then Disney dismissed that she was ever Hispanic to ease the tensions. Elena seemed to be created to address this issue. Yeah, there have been a lot of posters who have complained about how Elena is just a hodgepodge of all these different Latin American countries blended together. Moana technically is the same case, since she's literally a blend of all these different Polynesian and Oceanic cultures, but she never seems to get the same amount of criticism that Elena of Avalor gets.

Yeah, I always felt that Elena looked like a mix of Jasmine and Esmeralda.

Since I'm not a fan of Christian Aguilera anyway, I have no reason for wanting to see her as Amneris, for PC reasons or otherwise.

I really like Anna's more mature design in the leaked Frozen 2 pic. I love her new hair and the dark magenta colors on her. Elsa is very underwhelming though. All her designs have been the same variation of her original ice dress. Disney seems to be hyper-aware of how popular that look is because they've been too afraid to put Elsa in anything else besides that.

The popularity of the princesses seems to change, especially as new ones come. I just remember that way back when the franchise first started, someone at the Disney Store ranked the princesses in order of how well they sold.
1. Cinderella
2. Ariel
3. Belle
4. Jasmine
5. Snow White
6. Aurora
7. Pocahontas
8. Mulan

The only new princesses that have caught on are Rapunzel and the Frozen sisters. They tried with Merida but she didn't catch on after the first year or two after her film. Moana hasn't had the same amount of longevity either since while she isn't completely ignored, she hasn't been super popular either.

I don't have an issue with Elsa being in the princess line because she is a queen (after all Mulan isn't a princess at all), but I think the Frozen sisters are better suited for their own franchise.

I think your analysis of The Climb is excellent! I wish the moviemakers had put that much thought into The Hannah Montana Movie lol.

I have noticed that the current Disney Channel stars really aren't as famous or overexposed as the older ones. Zendaya's the last one who really made it big. Bella Thorne mostly does TV work and same goes for Dove Cameron and Sofia Carson. They're big Disney Channel names but outside of that, the average person wouldn't recognize them. I've also noticed that even Miley, Selena, and Demi really only retained their fame because of their careers as singers. None of them have really focused much on acting since then. Even Ariana Grande, although she's a Nickelodeon star, became uber famous from singing, not her acting.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:03 pm 
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Glad you're back though because I've missed our chats!

Me too :)

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Yes, Sleeping Beauty also fits the type of movie that places emphasis on visuals and music over character and story. I'd argue that Pocahontas does something similar in the 90s. That would explain why both films are so polarizing and criticized for flat characters and boring storylines.

True, but remember that Pocahontas was made in a different era than Sleeping Beauty, where an audience would be more scrutinizing towards a film that were made for the visuals stake and not so much the story. So for all the flack Pocahontas get for it's story faults, it's not as the visuals were deliberately made to overshadow the story.

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I can definitely see the argument that Pocahontas was made to make up for Native American representation. One could even argue that The Princess and the Frog was also made to make up for Song of the South. Ironically enough, both Pocahontas and TPATF got heavy race-based criticism as well for being too politically correct.

The Princess and the Frog was not as a bih apology for Song of the South to begin with, due to how it has it's shoehorned African-American Princess turning into a frog. Otherwise, I never understood what was so controversial about Song of the South to begin with.

You could say that The Legend of Tarzan inclusion of an African tribe could be perceived as an apology for not having one in the movie.

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It's not surprising to me that Disney gets the most flack for being racist when it comes to portraying American minorities than other cultures (China, the Middle East, Polynesia, etc.) The U.S. has a long history of oppression and ill-treatment of minorities and this comes out in films as well.

True, but I don't think Mulan was as much criticized for it's portrayal of Chinese. Just for being overall Americanized. I remember reading somewhere that it was praised for portraying Chinese eyes realistically, but I haven't found that article, unfortunately. And regarding Polynesians, I know there were a couple of criticism against Moana's
portrayal of them, but I don't think that havoc was as huge.

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Oh, when you meant that Hiawatha was a character in comic books, you meant the one from the Silly Symphonies. I'm familiar with that Hiawatha and his short. I know a lot of the Silly Symphonies characters used to appear in comics alongside other classic characters like Donald, Mickey, the dwarfs, etc. I assumed earlier that Disney had created a more adult version of Hiawatha to appear in the comics..

Yup.

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Speaking of Disney shorts, do you have any favorite ones? I feel like they are very underrated these days. Disney doesn't so much with them except for the Three Little Pigs which does get some presence in the Disney Parks.

Good question. I have of course my nostalgic bias towards many Disney shorts, but I do like Silly Symphonies Flowers and Trees. Otherwise, I do like Donald Duck's Winter Storage, Wet Paint and The Flying Squirrel. I'm sure there are a lot of other ones that I like, but I can't remember them right now.

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Here are two images I found from the Disney Store of Japan. They showcase who the popular characters in Japan are. Strangely, I've noticed that Japan has an aversion to the jungle characters. Even though the Walt-era films are loved, I never see anything Jungle Book or Lion King related there, let alone Tarzan which can't have Disney merchandise anymore.
https://store-resources-disneyjp.akamai ... _BADGE.jpg
https://store-resources-disneyjp.akamai ... _7__8_.jpg

Okay, thanks.

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I'm very excited for a live-action Hunchback. I've been hoping for one since Cinderella and since I saw Notre Dame briefly in the live-action BATB. I'm okay that they aren't including stage songs even though I really like them. I just hope that Disney will include some of the deleted songs mainly Someday and In a Place of Miracles. I'm a huge fan of both and I hope that being in the stage adaptation doesn't mean they'll be cut from the film as well. A Guy Like You needs to remain deleted though.

I'm sure Someday will be a part of the movie, due to how it's musically one of the biggest anthems in the film. At least In a Place of Miracles do have a chance of being a part of the movie, due to it being a deleted song. I'm sure the Gargoyles will be disccarded from the live action movie.

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Lol, you're not bragging by saying that you own a lot of Disney books. I've only recently started to collect them myself since when I was younger, I would just look at them for the pictures. What's your favorite Disney book?

Good question. I do like The Art of Hercules, since it was the very first one I bought. And I do like Charles Solomon's of Beauty and the Beast. Otherwise, I do like the one for Pinocchio. I don't know if I've said this before, but I think the current Art of-books happen to follow a similar structure and pattern. They don't come in a variety of shapes and sizes as before, they tend to come in a similar pattern.

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If I remember correctly, Sofia was branded as the first Hispanic princess and there was a lot of controversy because of her Anglicized appearance. Then Disney dismissed that she was ever Hispanic to ease the tensions. Elena seemed to be created to address this issue. Yeah, there have been a lot of posters who have complained about how Elena is just a hodgepodge of all these different Latin American countries blended together. Moana technically is the same case, since she's literally a blend of all these different Polynesian and Oceanic cultures, but she never seems to get the same amount of criticism that Elena of Avalor gets.

Nope, but at least Moana was not meant to represent a specific culture. It's fair to assume that Elena was made to cater the aforementioned theories about Sofia. To be honest, I've never seen one single episode about Elena. I find really their Princess titles to be contrived, since they've never even been a part of the lineup, despite being somewhat promoted with it.

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The popularity of the princesses seems to change, especially as new ones come. I just remember that way back when the franchise first started, someone at the Disney Store ranked the princesses in order of how well they sold.
1. Cinderella
2. Ariel
3. Belle
4. Jasmine
5. Snow White
6. Aurora
7. Pocahontas
8. Mulan

Surprised to see that Cinderella is peaking at such popularity. I thought her naysayers were doing the best to detract her from her peak and that she was considered too old-fashioned. But The Art of Cinderella-book actually confirms her popularity. I knew that Belle was popular, though and personally I wouldn't mind if she was even more ;)

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I think your analysis of The Climb is excellent! I wish the moviemakers had put that much thought into The Hannah Montana Movie lol.

Thank you. So do I, it would've made it's existence more forgivable :P

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I have noticed that the current Disney Channel stars really aren't as famous or overexposed as the older ones. Zendaya's the last one who really made it big. Bella Thorne mostly does TV work and same goes for Dove Cameron and Sofia Carson. They're big Disney Channel names but outside of that, the average person wouldn't recognize them. I've also noticed that even Miley, Selena, and Demi really only retained their fame because of their careers as singers. None of them have really focused much on acting since then. Even Ariana Grande, although she's a Nickelodeon star, became uber famous from singing, not her acting.

Yeah, but neither Miley or Demi were good actresses to begin with. Demi's acting in Sonny with a Chance was cringeworthy and Miley's acting in her synonymous role and in The Last Song were not much to brag about. At least Selena had a little more potential, but I haven't seen her in later roles. So therefore I think it's a perfect fit that all of them are stuck to music, certainly since Demi and Miley were made for it.

Btw, I saw Ralph Breaks the Internet. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. I was expecting to groan and frown of it, due to it's already established faults. I was surprised to see how even more spiteful Ralph was towards Vanellope than vice versa. Otherwise, while I felt that Vanellope's decision was a little shoehorned in, I thought the film handled it nicely. And as for the famous Princess-scene, it was okay enough, but I've had my aforementioned issues with it, so it wasn't as great as it could've been.
But overall a good movie, nonetheless. It's a pity that it's upcoming bonus features won't be much to brag about.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:49 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
True, but remember that Pocahontas was made in a different era than Sleeping Beauty, where an audience would be more scrutinizing towards a film that were made for the visuals stake and not so much the story. So for all the flack Pocahontas get for it's story faults, it's not as the visuals were deliberately made to overshadow the story.

The Princess and the Frog was not as a bih apology for Song of the South to begin with, due to how it has it's shoehorned African-American Princess turning into a frog. Otherwise, I never understood what was so controversial about Song of the South to begin with.

You could say that The Legend of Tarzan inclusion of an African tribe could be perceived as an apology for not having one in the movie.

True, but I don't think Mulan was as much criticized for it's portrayal of Chinese. Just for being overall Americanized. I remember reading somewhere that it was praised for portraying Chinese eyes realistically, but I haven't found that article, unfortunately. And regarding Polynesians, I know there were a couple of criticism against Moana's
portrayal of them, but I don't think that havoc was as huge.

Good question. I have of course my nostalgic bias towards many Disney shorts, but I do like Silly Symphonies Flowers and Trees. Otherwise, I do like Donald Duck's Winter Storage, Wet Paint and The Flying Squirrel. I'm sure there are a lot of other ones that I like, but I can't remember them right now.

I'm sure Someday will be a part of the movie, due to how it's musically one of the biggest anthems in the film. At least In a Place of Miracles do have a chance of being a part of the movie, due to it being a deleted song. I'm sure the Gargoyles will be disccarded from the live action movie.

Good question. I do like The Art of Hercules, since it was the very first one I bought. And I do like Charles Solomon's of Beauty and the Beast. Otherwise, I do like the one for Pinocchio. I don't know if I've said this before, but I think the current Art of-books happen to follow a similar structure and pattern. They don't come in a variety of shapes and sizes as before, they tend to come in a similar pattern.

Nope, but at least Moana was not meant to represent a specific culture. It's fair to assume that Elena was made to cater the aforementioned theories about Sofia. To be honest, I've never seen one single episode about Elena. I find really their Princess titles to be contrived, since they've never even been a part of the lineup, despite being somewhat promoted with it.

Surprised to see that Cinderella is peaking at such popularity. I thought her naysayers were doing the best to detract her from her peak and that she was considered too old-fashioned. But The Art of Cinderella-book actually confirms her popularity. I knew that Belle was popular, though and personally I wouldn't mind if she was even more ;)

Yeah, but neither Miley or Demi were good actresses to begin with. Demi's acting in Sonny with a Chance was cringeworthy and Miley's acting in her synonymous role and in The Last Song were not much to brag about. At least Selena had a little more potential, but I haven't seen her in later roles. So therefore I think it's a perfect fit that all of them are stuck to music, certainly since Demi and Miley were made for it.

Btw, I saw Ralph Breaks the Internet. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. I was expecting to groan and frown of it, due to it's already established faults. I was surprised to see how even more spiteful Ralph was towards Vanellope than vice versa. Otherwise, while I felt that Vanellope's decision was a little shoehorned in, I thought the film handled it nicely. And as for the famous Princess-scene, it was okay enough, but I've had my aforementioned issues with it, so it wasn't as great as it could've been.
But overall a good movie, nonetheless. It's a pity that it's upcoming bonus features won't be much to brag about.

I wouldn't say that the visuals of Pocahontas were meant to overshadow the story, but since Disney desperately wanted an Oscar win with this film, it's safe to say that the visuals were really dramatized, especially compared to past Disney films, to amplify the film's message.

After watching Song of the South myself, I didn't find it super racist either, although after everything Disney has done to cover the film up, it's easy to understand why people think it must be one of the most racist films ever like Birth of a Nation. I do know that even when the film was released, it was criticized for certain elements, which even back then, people said wouldn't age well and that's pretty much what ended up happening.

I don't think the Tarzan TV show's inclusion of an African tribe was meant as an apology for not including Africans in the movie. Especially, since the original book is criticized for being quite racist with its portrayal of black people. There's a reason Disney cut the African tribes out completely. The TV series was designed to bring back the serial pulp elements, hence why it's styled after the original movies, books, and comics.

I've read something about the Chinese eyes in Mulan being portrayed realistically as well. Mainly, the history and timeline of the film was off and regional differences were completely ignored. Mulan's character was criticized for being overly westernized, which always makes me laugh since the film was retooled because Disney felt it was too westernized in the first place. Oh, and Chinese people don't necessarily complain about this, but they mock Mulan's appearance because she doesn't appeal to their sense of beauty. They claim that her looks are also what western people think a Chinese beauty should look like.

I always liked the Donald cartoons featuring Daisy, since I'm a big fan of her and she didn't have much presence in the early Disney years. I also always loved Two Chips and a Miss (which introduces Clarice, the female chipmunk) so I'm not surprised that she's so beloved in Japan. Wish she had more presence in the U.S.

Yeah, lots of people here have been commenting that Someday will likely be brought back into the film since the melody is such a big part of the film's score. It's possible they'll go the way of the German musical and keep the gargoyles, but tone them down. Apparently, even the animated versions were always meant to be imaginary (as said in the Art of Hunchback book) but that's not very apparent on screen because they interact with the environment and other characters so many times. I imagine that the live-action film will make them being imaginary more obvious. I hope Djali isn't scrapped though.

I still need to get Charles Solomon's BATB book. I didn't want the new one with the live-action film included, which is fine since it's OOP now as well. I also need to get the Pinocchio one because I feel like the price for that has been hiking up so likely it will be OOP soon. From what I remember, even the old Art of books were generally in similar sizes. I think Hercules was a major exception but I think the rest of the ones released in the 90s were generally the same dimensions. However, I buy the deluxe versions so maybe that's why.

I think Moana originally was supposed to be based off of a single culture, but they decided that they wanted to be more inclusive so they made her a hodgepodge of different Polynesian and Oceanic cultures. Elena has been described to be as authentic as Taco Bell. I've never seen it either so I can't say myself.

The list of the DP popularity I posted was way back from 2000 but I think Cinderella would still be at the top. She's a universal character that every culture admires so even with her haters, she probably won't be dropping from her top rank anytime soon. Rapunzel is probably somewhere in the top three or four now alongside Elsa.

You're right about Miley and Demi's acting abilities and the fact that they debuted primarily as singers, unlike Selena Gomez.

I'm glad you enjoyed WIR2. I actually don't remember Ralph being especially spiteful to Vanellope until after he sabotages her game. What I do remember was that he was overly clingy and it just came off as desperate and annoying. Disney has been lax about all their home video releases for this entire decade. If they didn't bother with their darling Frozen, they definitely won't bother with this film's home video release.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:34 pm 
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Quote:
I wouldn't say that the visuals of Pocahontas were meant to overshadow the story, but since Disney desperately wanted an Oscar win with this film, it's safe to say that the visuals were really dramatized, especially compared to past Disney films, to amplify the film's message.

Fair enough. That's a good observation. The color pallet in Pocahontas is certainly bold and artistic and does take several bold choices, which is certainly evident in both Savages and If I Never Knew You, where the characters are litterally bathed in color. I think really the color pallet for that movie is one of the best that Disney has ever come up with.

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After watching Song of the South myself, I didn't find it super racist either, although after everything Disney has done to cover the film up, it's easy to understand why people think it must be one of the most racist films ever like Birth of a Nation. I do know that even when the film was released, it was criticized for certain elements, which even back then, people said wouldn't age well and that's pretty much what ended up happening.

Okay. I've never happened to see the film myself, but having researched the buzz, I never understood why there were so much buzz around it in the first place. And yes, it's easy to claim that Walt was an racist and while it could be speculated as so, at least he did the Ferdinand short and Saludos Amigos before getting into The Jungle Book . It was really with the Renaissance that Disney expanded their cultural horizons.

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I've read something about the Chinese eyes in Mulan being portrayed realistically as well. Mainly, the history and timeline of the film was off and regional differences were completely ignored. Mulan's character was criticized for being overly westernized, which always makes me laugh since the film was retooled because Disney felt it was too westernized in the first place. Oh, and Chinese people don't necessarily complain about this, but they mock Mulan's appearance because she doesn't appeal to their sense of beauty. They claim that her looks are also what western people think a Chinese beauty should look like.

You know what, I remember actually reading an old IMDb tread about this and there were an user that claimed that the Asian girls he knew were offended by this depiction. But who knows, sometimes I get offended by certain Norwegian and Scandinavian representations by certain TV shows and such.

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I always liked the Donald cartoons featuring Daisy, since I'm a big fan of her and she didn't have much presence in the early Disney years. I also always loved Two Chips and a Miss (which introduces Clarice, the female chipmunk) so I'm not surprised that she's so beloved in Japan. Wish she had more presence in the U.S.

Okay, what do you like about Daisy?

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Yeah, lots of people here have been commenting that Someday will likely be brought back into the film since the melody is such a big part of the film's score. It's possible they'll go the way of the German musical and keep the gargoyles, but tone them down. Apparently, even the animated versions were always meant to be imaginary (as said in the Art of Hunchback book) but that's not very apparent on screen because they interact with the environment and other characters so many times. I imagine that the live-action film will make them being imaginary more obvious. I hope Djali isn't scrapped though.

I hope that Djali isn't scrapped as well. At least he made sense to be in the movie, due to him being from the novel (I remember reading somewhere an user review that Disney kept him in to make up for the radical stuff in the movie, which makes me cringe). As for the Gargoyles, it would be easy to assume that they were imaginary, but remember that Djali can see them and they do help to defeat the soldiers in the climax.

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I still need to get Charles Solomon's BATB book. I didn't want the new one with the live-action film included, which is fine since it's OOP now as well. I also need to get the Pinocchio one because I feel like the price for that has been hiking up so likely it will be OOP soon. From what I remember, even the old Art of books were generally in similar sizes. I think Hercules was a major exception but I think the rest of the ones released in the 90s were generally the same dimensions. However, I buy the deluxe versions so maybe that's why.

Do that. And yes, though the old Art of books were similar in sizes, they were still different in shapes and content.

Have we ever talked about Winnie the Pooh, btw?

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You're right about Miley and Demi's acting abilities and the fact that they debuted primarily as singers, unlike Selena Gomez.

To be honest, I've used to find Selena Gomez' foray into music to be very contrived. But of course it wasn't strange, due to her being a corporate Disney puppet at the same time, so it was just a matter of time that she would get into music. Yet to be fair, her debut CD was fairly cute and her songs haven't been bad. As for Miley, she debuted as both a singer and an actress.

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I'm glad you enjoyed WIR2. I actually don't remember Ralph being especially spiteful to Vanellope until after he sabotages her game. What I do remember was that he was overly clingy and it just came off as desperate and annoying. Disney has been lax about all their home video releases for this entire decade. If they didn't bother with their darling Frozen, they definitely won't bother with this film's home video release.

No, that was the time where he actually crossed the line. Otherwise, I found it really remarkable that the end credits had a "trailer" for Frozen II and that the toddler that was modeled after Moana was actually in the end credits. That was too meta. Yet it was fun enough.

So you also liked the new Frozen II teaser? So did I. Surprised that it was action-oriented, which gave me a mystery feel. It did remind me somewhat of Brave and Pocahontas, especially since there's such a fall-vibe to it. I wonder who's the other girl in the trailer, besides the royal sisters. But I'm still curious about what the plot is going to be about.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:33 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Fair enough. That's a good observation. The color pallet in Pocahontas is certainly bold and artistic and does take several bold choices, which is certainly evident in both Savages and If I Never Knew You, where the characters are litterally bathed in color. I think really the color pallet for that movie is one of the best that Disney has ever come up with.

Okay. I've never happened to see the film myself, but having researched the buzz, I never understood why there were so much buzz around it in the first place. And yes, it's easy to claim that Walt was an racist and while it could be speculated as so, at least he did the Ferdinand short and Saludos Amigos before getting into The Jungle Book . It was really with the Renaissance that Disney expanded their cultural horizons.

You know what, I remember actually reading an old IMDb tread about this and there were an user that claimed that the Asian girls he knew were offended by this depiction. But who knows, sometimes I get offended by certain Norwegian and Scandinavian representations by certain TV shows and such.

Okay, what do you like about Daisy?

I hope that Djali isn't scrapped as well. At least he made sense to be in the movie, due to him being from the novel (I remember reading somewhere an user review that Disney kept him in to make up for the radical stuff in the movie, which makes me cringe). As for the Gargoyles, it would be easy to assume that they were imaginary, but remember that Djali can see them and they do help to defeat the soldiers in the climax.

Do that. And yes, though the old Art of books were similar in sizes, they were still different in shapes and content.

Have we ever talked about Winnie the Pooh, btw?

To be honest, I've used to find Selena Gomez' foray into music to be very contrived. But of course it wasn't strange, due to her being a corporate Disney puppet at the same time, so it was just a matter of time that she would get into music. Yet to be fair, her debut CD was fairly cute and her songs haven't been bad. As for Miley, she debuted as both a singer and an actress.

No, that was the time where he actually crossed the line. Otherwise, I found it really remarkable that the end credits had a "trailer" for Frozen II and that the toddler that was modeled after Moana was actually in the end credits. That was too meta. Yet it was fun enough.

So you also liked the new Frozen II teaser? So did I. Surprised that it was action-oriented, which gave me a mystery feel. It did remind me somewhat of Brave and Pocahontas, especially since there's such a fall-vibe to it. I wonder who's the other girl in the trailer, besides the royal sisters. But I'm still curious about what the plot is going to be about.

I really liked reading your take on the Pocahontas color palette. I agree with you completely that it's so revolutionary for Disney.

The main criticism that Song of the South gets is for sugarcoating the treatment of African Americans in the Reconstruction era (post-Civil War). How all the AA characters in the movie are happy despite their poor lifestyles and being treated as inferiors to their former white overlords. And many increasingly ignorant audiences thought that they were actually still slaves in the movie, even though that has been debunked and was never the case.

Saludos Amigos was more because Disney was told to make movies for WWII and build a friendship with Latin America so they wouldn't join the Axis powers or turn to Communism. In some of my Disney books, there is concept art for films or shorts based off of other cultures, like Latin American, Native American, and African American, but they never ended up getting further than art development. The Jungle Book is sort of a laughable example since most of it features animals lol, but it was classic Disney's sole claim to diversity for the longest time until Aladdin.

Actually I found this article recently about Chinese complaints about Mulan. You mentioned earlier that Mulan was praised for having a realistic depiction of Chinese eyes, something I remember reading earlier as well, but it's funny because this article has Chinese people complaining about the eyes. Most of the complaints though are about how they misinterpreted Chinese culture (or more accurately, didn't even bother because they just inserted their Western sensibilities). The part where a man is describing how a Chinese dragon would actually act (which is anything but how Mushu acts) really made me laugh though, because the man's explanation made it seem like dragons are such a staple of Chinese society that he's regularly observed them.
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html

I've always liked Donald for his temper and his antics so Daisy tends to get most of her screentime with him, at least in the old shorts. What I liked about her was that she wasn't as sweet as Minnie and she had a temper of her own that she was prone to exercising but she never nearly gets as much flack for it as Donald does.

Since Disney likes to sell plush toys even for their live-action films, I'm guessing Djali will stay. I've heard lots of people say that as kids, Djali was their fav part of the movie. I read in the art book that Djali's inclusion had the purpose of entertaining kids since the film was so dark. Of course, the gargoyles had the same purpose to fulfill but we all know how well that worked out.

Oh, ok. I didn't realize the old art books were all different shapes as well. I guess I'll find out one day when I start to get some more.

I don't think we've discussed Winnie the Pooh ever actually. It's one of my favs and I love the original movie, The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, and Pooh's Grand Adventure. On the other hand, the 2011 film didn't sit well with me. It's humor attempts to be too modern and it even insults some of the characters which the original never did.

Selena's songs used to be very generic imo although that's not to say that there weren't a few that I didn't like. You're right that Miley debuted as a singer and actress both but so did Demi. In fact, Demi was a child actress (much like Selena) since they both met on Barney.

I left the movie before the "sneak peak" for Frozen II because I had no interest in wasting my time for such a silly joke. I remember the baby Moana lookalike in the trailer and I didn't care for it then either.

Yeah, I really enjoyed the Frozen II teaser. It actually reminds me a lot of the Brave teaser which everyone raved about until they actually saw the actual movie. Hope history doesn't repeat itself with Frozen II but I don't believe that will be the case. I think with the subtitle that the movie has in some foreign countries (Secret of Arendelle), that Elsa and Anna will be learning some secret about their past or family lineage. The musical creating the hidden folk and making the queen one of their members makes me think they may go that route. It would explain Elsa's own magical abilities and possibly why she's in the water by the shore, because she's searching for clues about the shipwreck that killed her parents.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:45 pm 
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I really liked reading your take on the Pocahontas color palette. I agree with you completely that it's so revolutionary for Disney.

Thanks :D Remember that my readings are always good ones ;) Just kidding :P I do like the overall look of the film, the bright pastel colors. I remember the Disney Adventures Magazine special of this film comfirmed and compared it to the color palette of The Lion King. What used to baffle me is that some reviewers said that the color palette of Pocahontas were muted, yet they were still bright enough (for me).

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Saludos Amigos was more because Disney was told to make movies for WWII and build a friendship with Latin America so they wouldn't join the Axis powers or turn to Communism. In some of my Disney books, there is concept art for films or shorts based off of other cultures, like Latin American, Native American, and African American, but they never ended up getting further than art development. The Jungle Book is sort of a laughable example since most of it features animals lol, but it was classic Disney's sole claim to diversity for the longest time until Aladdin.

I've never actually seen Saludos Amigos entirely, just segments of it, but I'll definitively see it. As for The Jungle Book, it does feature a couple of humans (but we know how it turned out). Yet I've heard that even that movie has some racism scrutiny towards it (the monkeys)

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Actually I found this article recently about Chinese complaints about Mulan. You mentioned earlier that Mulan was praised for having a realistic depiction of Chinese eyes, something I remember reading earlier as well, but it's funny because this article has Chinese people complaining about the eyes. Most of the complaints though are about how they misinterpreted Chinese culture (or more accurately, didn't even bother because they just inserted their Western sensibilities). The part where a man is describing how a Chinese dragon would actually act (which is anything but how Mushu acts) really made me laugh though, because the man's explanation made it seem like dragons are such a staple of Chinese society that he's regularly observed them.
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html

Okay. Unfortunately I couldn't read that article. I remember when I learned that Mulan was going to have a dragon (before the movie premiered), I thought that it was going to be a huge, real-size dragon. Yet to be fair, a pint-sized dragon as Mushu was a better fit to such a realistic premise as the movie has. Speaking of which, have you read all the theories about why the Stone Dragon never came to life? I've kind of wondered about it myself.

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I've always liked Donald for his temper and his antics so Daisy tends to get most of her screentime with him, at least in the old shorts. What I liked about her was that she wasn't as sweet as Minnie and she had a temper of her own that she was prone to exercising but she never nearly gets as much flack for it as Donald does.

To be honest, I've never seen the flack Donald gets, but I've always assumed that there were some, due to his tenacious personality. I've heard theories that Donald's characterization was based of Walt's himself. Did you ever see Quack Pack? Donald had his moments of selflessness and compassion, yet at the same time he happened to be more selfish there.

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Since Disney likes to sell plush toys even for their live-action films, I'm guessing Djali will stay. I've heard lots of people say that as kids, Djali was their fav part of the movie. I read in the art book that Djali's inclusion had the purpose of entertaining kids since the film was so dark. Of course, the gargoyles had the same purpose to fulfill but we all know how well that worked out.

I guess Djali will look very realistic and generic.

Quote:
I don't think we've discussed Winnie the Pooh ever actually. It's one of my favs and I love the original movie, The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, and Pooh's Grand Adventure. On the other hand, the 2011 film didn't sit well with me. It's humor attempts to be too modern and it even insults some of the characters which the original never did.

My first exposure to Winnie the Pooh was through The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh series, which I loved (though to the fair, at the time I thought some episodes were lackluster as well). As for the original film, I remember renting Winnie the Pooh and Tigger too as a child and I thought it was okay, yet nothing that I went gaga for. But when I saw the entire film, I did in fact like it a lot. As for the other products, I never saw them, but I disliked Tigger The Movie and the Heffalump movie (though Pooh's Grand Adventure was okay, though). As for the 2011 edition, I haven't seen it, but at least it got better remarks. Wonder how Christopher Robin is like.
I grew up with Disney's Winnie the Pooh through the merchandise. Or at least say the magazines and the read alongs, so Winnie the Pooh was a part of my childhood. I had an acquaintance who hated Disney and everything that was meant for kids, but he liked the original Winnie the Pooh stories for some reason. I actually have an Disney-obsessed friend of mine, who always gets picked on for her Disney interest by her mom, but the mom happens to love Winnie the Pooh (makes a lot of sense, huh?)

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In fact, Demi was a child actress (much like Selena) since they both met on Barney.

And they were best friends for a long time before they suddenly weren't close anymore. I know there were several theories of it, but I wonder why. Perhaps the real reason isn't as complicated as people would think of, but who knows?

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I left the movie before the "sneak peak" for Frozen II because I had no interest in wasting my time for such a silly joke. I remember the baby Moana lookalike in the trailer and I didn't care for it then either.

I remember that I wonder where in the film the baby was going to be a part of it and I was startled that it was a meta-joke at the end credits. It was fun enough, but perhaps a little too meta. As was the Frozen II joke.

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Yeah, I really enjoyed the Frozen II teaser. It actually reminds me a lot of the Brave teaser which everyone raved about until they actually saw the actual movie. Hope history doesn't repeat itself with Frozen II but I don't believe that will be the case. I think with the subtitle that the movie has in some foreign countries (Secret of Arendelle), that Elsa and Anna will be learning some secret about their past or family lineage. The musical creating the hidden folk and making the queen one of their members makes me think they may go that route. It would explain Elsa's own magical abilities and possibly why she's in the water by the shore, because she's searching for clues about the shipwreck that killed her parents.

I wonder what the storyline actually is going to be about. It will most likely be a journey, yet I wonder if there's actually going to be Sami people in this sequel. As for counting Frozen II into the Revival era, with the exception of The Princess and the Frog, there's been a three year gap between each current Princess movie (Tangled, Frozen and Moana), so Frozen II fills the three year gap synergy filled.
I wonder how Elsa's characterization is going to be. I guess she'll have more screentime, but I wonder if her personality is going to be more enhanced.

Btw, regarding that Brother Bear tried to be a Renaissance film; I think that despite that it feels more classic Disney than it's counterparts of that decade, it still doesn't have all the components from the Renaissance; Romance, the outcast-trope and a real villain (but of course that was the point of the movie, to not have a real villain). In fact, the films of the early 2000's were pretty much road movies (regardless of that's a trope that the Revival era has been frequenctly criticized for), but at least they were road movies that were buddy-pictures, so to speak (with the exception of Atlantis, which is a road movie of a team and Lilo & Stitch, which is not a road movie at all). Though The Emperor's New Groove is more overt of this, at least Brother Bear is still a buddy picture between Kenai and Koda, with no emphasis of a romance as a subplot.
In fact, since The Emperor's New Groove turned out to be a different picture than Kingdom of the Sun, I assumed that Brother Bear was essentially made as a departure from the movie as Groove eventually became to be, since Brother Bear is primarily a drama.

Btw, since Brave is strikingly reminiscent of Brother Bear, which movie do you like most? I'll say Brave, since despite it's lackluster story and tonal problems, it didn't felt as tonally incohesive as Brother Bear and more effort put into the actual mood and tone.


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