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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Lol, I never forget either so we are clearly a kindred spirit.

I'm glad we are ;)

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I forgot that since you aren't American, you wouldn't have gotten Movie Surfers. I didn't realize they had an unreleased episode for Simba's Pride. Any reason why it was never released?

It must have been released, it just hasn't been put on YouTube.

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I've actually heard several times now stories about how people didn't laugh at the jokes in The Lion King, but loved the comedy in Pocahontas during theaters. Unless, I've just seen your posts on the subject and assumed that multiple people have said something similar.

Really? Hahaha. Who knows, the world is a huge place, there could've been several theaters where the audiences roared with laughter by the jokes of The Lion King and not from those from Pocahontas (heck, even the last bit with Percy and Meeko having switched clothes made the audience laugh).

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I liked Nakoma because it was nice to see Pocahontas have a friend her age. I've read on the Disney Wiki that Nakoma is actually a really popular character with a strong fanbase. I've never heard of this before and it surprises me a little but if it's true, I'm glad to hear it. For the most part, I don't think people hold Nakoma telling Kococum where Pocahontas is against her, because her heart was in the right place. I'm glad Disney didn't go with a plot of a jealous friend who is really after Kocoum herself.

I also liked that Pocahontas had a (realistic) human friend around her age and I wished that Disney could've made more of those. I know Ariel had her sisters, but they weren't major characters (nor were the Bimbettes from BATB, but they were more on Gaston's side). It's really in my adult years that I've grown to dislike Nakoma, due to her prissy and no-nonsence nature. However, according to The Three Commentears, Nakoma had a lot of haters, but I haven't found them. Though what's contradicting is how that despite this, I actually defend Nakoma's decision for actually not lying to Pocahontas when she gets to meet John Smith (for obvious reasons).

And yes, I'm glad they didn't made Nakoma the jealous friend, though she easily could've been. After all, she cites her attraction to Kocoum at the beginning of her film. But obviously the film never surrounds around it afterwards :P It's a pity that Disney didn't gave their female protagonists more friends until Tiana (while Nakoma was at least more realistic, at least Charlotte was charicatured and made for comic relief).

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I didn't realize that there was such a big deal about Pocahontas having non-speaking animals parts. That's odd since so many Disney movies (including the very first one) were like that.

Oh yes, the press and marketing made a huge deal about it.

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I can see your point about the soldiers in Hunchback. Personally the convict who keeps getting himself trapped bothered me more. Not really him per say but the fact that he says "dang it." Dang instead of damn really takes me out of the film and reminds me that I'm a 21st century spectator watching.

Fair enough. I used to like him when I was a kid and he reminded me of Jafar as a beggar. Even my mom and aunt (who I saw the movie with) liked him.

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I find Pascal so annoying but I know popular consensus is that he's one of the best Disney sidekicks ever. He's loyal, I'll give him that, and I can see the appeal, but he just irritates me. I think if I liked Rapunzel more, I'd be able to see why Pascal is so loyal to her and I'd probably like him a lot then. His relationship with Flynn didn't help since I wasn't a fan of Flynn either.

I won't say that Pascal was the best Disney sidekick ever, but I liked him for what he was. Despite that he never had a real closure with Flynn. Which really was a problem in Aladdin. where none of the lovebirds had closures with the pets from their love interests (with the exception of Carpet, who was polite to Jasmine).

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The original Glen Keane version of Rapunzel was meant to be more painterly but it ended up being too expensive and time-consuming so they went back to the regular CGI. I would have loved to have seen the painterly CGI though. Not surprised that it's been 8 years since Tangled came out and under Lasseter's regime, Disney has made no strides whatsoever in exploring new forms of CGI. The graphics are better and the visuals are more photorealistic, true, but to the eye of the average person, Tangled and Moana don't really look any different.

I know. I remember being some rumors about Tangled being hand drawn or at least look like hand drawn after The Princess and the Frog was released. At least something more innovative would've been nice. Did you see the test clip that exists in YouTube about Rapunzel with a squirrel saying that she doesn't believe in magic?

According to The Art of Walt Disney: From Mickey Mouse to the Magic Kingdoms and Beyond, Glen Keane was asked to switch back to hand drawn, but he wanted to explore the possibilites with adapting this tale in CGI. So he's to blame, hahaha :D :P

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When Tangled came out, I remember a lot of people were going on about the ending and how it ripped off Beauty and the Beast. It didn't bother me then because this was one of the few things that hearkened back to the original fairy tale.

That's true. I remember the concept art of the shedding tear was the one that made the naysayers gain hope in the movie. Don't forget how everyone were freaking off from the trailer and saying that Disney had gone full DreamWorks mode.

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Meanwhile I See the Light gets compared to A Whole New World as well, along with the Jasmine/Rapunzel and Aladdin/Flynn parallels.

Really? I know people where whining about I See The Light being structured and having the same chords as Menken's earlier ballads. But at least we got to have an actual love duet between a love couple, which has been the only one in this Revival era (unless you'll count Love is an Open Door from Frozen). However, I See The Light is the best song from Tangled and therefore my favorite.

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From what I remember, Tam Lin was Roy Disney's pet project, and Michael Eisner canned it to spite him. I don't think it got far enough in development for any concept art to materialize, or at least, I haven't seen ansy.

Yeah, I know about the feud between Roy and Michael.

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Oh, that's cool that Disney was interested in Norse myths. The German epic I mentioned earlier (The Ring Cycle by Wagner) was basically just the Norse myths with some variations so I would have loved to have seen Disney's versions of Thor and Loki. A red-headed Loki who is actually Thor's blood brother and not adopted one.

OK. Disney could still do it, despite how they've given the Norwegian location to Frozen (which was at least a welcome, due to me being Norwegian, though a little contrived, despite how the original tale of The Snow Queen never took place in Norway)

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I suppose The Prince of Egypt was daring but not as daring as Hunchback since Jewish/Christian/Muslim families have likely exposed their children to the tale of Moses so they're already familiar with all the dark and bleak elements. Whereas, Hunchback is more new material and on top of that, parents likely don't really teach their kids about sex at such a young age so Hunchback explored those mature themes as well.

Fair enough. There were so much buzz about how daring The Prince of Egypt was, yet Hunchback was more controversial, if you think about it.

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I'll have to find Antz one day and give it a watch. I always took it as another Disney rip-off. Do you prefer it over A Bug's Life? I know a lot of people hate on A Bug's Life, but I really quite like it. It's very underrated imo.

Haha, funny that you ask about that! When I saw A Bug's Life theatrically for the first time, I loved it and thought it was inferior. Later viewings has made me less fond of it. It's not bad, it's just that it's not as good as it initially was. Yet I still have a certain fondness for A Bug's Life. But now I consider Antz to be the better picture of the two. I saw Antz first.

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I actually own David Koenig's "Mouse Under Glass" and it's one of my favorite Disney books. I especially love how The Black Cauldron is just entirely skipped lol.

Not only The Black Cauldron, The Rescuers Down Under too!

It's one of my favorite books, due to it's sheer honesty. It certainly has more valuable information about Hunchback where you don't find elsewhere! Despite that it doesn't have all the facts right and does nitpick a little about certain plot holes, it is a valuable book for any Disnerd! It's been ten years since I bought it online.

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You know my age now and I know yours lol. Like I said before, I'm sorta jealous of you because I would have loved to have grown up in the 90s so I could experience the height of Disney's promotion. I still believe the merchandise was better back then.

Thanks. I personally wished that I was a kid in the late nineties, so I could enjoy the bliss of being a child with the Disney merchandise in the last years of the millenium.

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Richard Rich seems quite content with The Swan Princess franchise right now so I doubt he's interested in selling. I forgot what company owns the rights to The Swan Princess now, but they found that the old DVDs were consistent sellers, even as home video has been dying out, which is why the franchise was brought back, for better or for worse. I personally haven't seen any of the CGI films yet although I always plan to, just to see if I'm missing out on anything. Have you seen any of the new films?

Nope. I remember seeing the direct-to-video sequels a long time ago and finding them just meh. I haven't seen the new CGI movies.
New Line Cinema were the ones who released The Swan Princess. It's remarkable despite that the brand has become a franchise, The Swan Princess is still leagues behind the legacy and recognition of the Princess franchise.
I miss the days when Disney weren't the only ones who were associated with Princess related franchises. It's still an overlooked movie and haven't really gotten as much attention as Anastasia, per say, which I personally think that has a huge fanbase.

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Do you mean Esmeralda and Mulan resembled Jasmine physically or personality-wise?

The former.

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Because generally the princesses all have very broad dreams of adventure and romance which is mostly associated with young girls, particularly teenagers, not that adult women don't have the same dreams. However, characters like Tiana and Nani were part of the labor force and their biggest aspirations were professional; Nani making enough to take care of Lilo like a guardian and Tiana opening up her own restaurant. I feel like most little kids really can't connect very much to Tiana's dream. There's a reason that one day they want to be an astronaut and the next day they want to be a firefighter, because it's all a game of pretend for them, and very few children actually realize then what a profession will really entail.

Fair enough. But there are still children who wants to open their own restaurant.

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Tiana was the first princess whose hair never came down until Anna (unless you count her messy bedhair) and Elsa.

Exactly. It's remarkable how none of those three has their hair down and the two sisters always has their hair braided. With the exception of Cinderella and Pocahontas, you barely saw a hand drawn Princess with braids. I think I've read somewhere that it was easier to animate a braid in CGI.

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I actually didn't realize that the only POC princesses were both made by Musker and Clements. Thanks for pointing that out.

You're welcome. I remember that people were whining about not having a Princess of color since Tiana.

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Yeah, I've seen the concept art of Tiana and I got some Audrey vibes as well. I think Tiana had a more youthful look in those, so it must have been back when she was Maddie or when her design hadn't been completely settled yet.

Yeah, I liked her more in the concept art, especially in those early ones where she had wings and was slimmer (like a African American version of Tinker Bell). Though I stand by my statement that I did like her final design. The naysayers have even whined about her not looking dark enough in Ralph Breaks the Internet

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I actually like Nani a lot. She has a sense of humor when she isn't weighed down by her situation and I liked how she and David could rely on each other. He genuinely cared for her and tried to help her get a job and never complained when she had to blow him off.

I liked David. He was a good character and someone who actually helped the family. Though I guess his purpose was to be the love interest for Nani, I thought that he was a fairly nice addition.

What do you think otherwise about Lilo & Stitch?

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I suppose Mulan was comical, but more when she's masquerading as a man. It's interesting that you point out that Tiana was funny, but only as a frog. That goes with my point that generally attractive leading ladies aren't usually suited for humor. Mulan is mainly funny when she's disguised as a man and Tiana has to be an animal to be comical.

I agree that Mulan is more comedic when she impersonates as a man, but she also has her comedic moments when she's dressed as a bride as well and meets the Matchmaker.

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Similarly enough, if you look at past Disney examples, you'll see that the traditionally feminine Maid Marian is like the other princesses, but Lady Cluck, the short and round character is the comic relief. Meanwhile, Charlotte who is more exagerrated in her features and more buxom is more comical than Tiana. It seems as though if a heroine is depicted as traditionally beautiful, she can't play the comic relief role.

That's true.

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Even Terk ends up playing the typical comical sidekick and most people think she's a guy.

True, I know many people are shocked by Terk being a guy. At first I thought that Terk was going to be guy, despite being voiced by Rosie O'Donell. And initially she was going to be it, when the gender swap was suggested. Even the The Legend of Tarzan pokes fun at this issue.

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I remember when Esmeralda was a DP and I wish she still was. She really deserved to be in the lineup and I'm sure Hunchback would be better remembered then. I wish Jane stayed too even if she was really only on the covers for two DP magazines. My main complaint with Jane as a DP is that she doesn't sing. That always bothered me and I was not pleased when Merida bypassed that rule.

Yeah, it's remarkable that Jane is a rare Disney heroine of the nineties who doesn't even get to sing (which gets to my aforementioned rant about the non-Broadway policy in Tarzan). The same applies to Kida. But personally I think the Disney Princess franchise could've included all the actual Princesses. I've always found Mulan's inclusion to be contrived. Call me a purist :P

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Yeah, that is interesting how Tiana and Rapunzel switched their stations in life. Although Rapunzel has precedent since the Barbie version also made her a princess by birth (although her love interest is still a prince, unlike Disney's).

I remember there was some complaints about the swap of love interest when the official synopsis of Tangled was announced.

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I'd say the "Pegasus" in Anastasia owes more to the Pont Alexandre III bridge in Paris than it does to Disney's Hercules lol.

True, but it's a synergy, nonetheless. Had Anastasia been a Disney property, purists would've screamed foul.

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As for the rest of the CGI in Hercules, I do like the depiction of Mount Olympus. Wish I felt the same way about the Olympians. Hera's design in particular is terrible.

Yeah, the designs in Hercules is a mixed bag for me. I do like some of the designs, while the others are just jarring and off.

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The whales in Treasure Planet seemed directly ported from Fantasia 2000 which doesn't surprise me since that was very early CGI work and it was criticized for Fantasia 2000 as well.

Hahaha, nice catch! It's a shallow comparsion, but still legit. But I still have to disagree, since I found them different. I felt the CGI in Fantasia 2000 was off, but at least we saw a variety of designs, so I find it legit. What are your thoughts about Fantasia 2000, btw?

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They do a great job with Grandmother Willow and even Carpet in Aladdin, implementing CGI with hand-drawn animation.

Agreed. The Carpet doesn't look off.

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I think Kiara's name changed more than once, besides the name you listed. I also remember reading that she was meant to be a twin at one point. Which would really have paralleled with Bambi since Bambi also fathers twins.

Fair enough. I've always thought the same. I know Kiara's name was changed more than once.

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Yeah, I like how Scar's presence is still felt in Simba's Pride and how Simba is still clearly struggling with that trauma. It's not what one would expect in a cheapquel. Hunchback II certainly didn't go that route with Quasi or even Esmeralda. You'd think both of them would have some issues after the lives they lived, Quasi in particular

True, but at least Simba's trauma is more overt; His father was killed as a child. I'm not trying to neglect Quasi's trauma, but at least it's more easier to handle such a overt trauma as Simba's than Quasi's, despite that Quasi would've logically also been traumatized. Now that I know how to live with such a trauma, I know.

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When I watched TPATF, I liked it but wasn't blown away. It didn't make me love Disney again and this was the time that I wasn't really into Disney. The songs really aren't memorable and the characters are so-so. I love Charlotte and Dr. Facilier is a great villain. I actually liked Louis even though most people hated him. Ray I couldn't stand though, and I wasn't a fan of Naveen at all. As I said before, Lawrence felt like a retread of Nathaniel, without any of the depth, and I've told you my thoughts on Tiana and her family. The human scenes are compelling but I lose interest by the time the film goes to the bayou, which is unfortunately most of the film. Mama Odie felt really wasted as well. She accomplishes nothing which is a pity since I read that originally she was supposed to have an epic duel with Dr. Facilier at the end. I'm not sure why they changed it but it's possible that they wanted Tiana to be more involved in the climax so this meant getting rid of Mama Odie's role. Also maybe the criticism by Christian families for portraying voodoo in a positive manner meant that Disney limited themselves to only Dr. Facilier's evil magic and all traces of good voodoo had to be erased, hence why Mama Odie ends up really just existing in the film but not having anything to do.

Well said. TPATF had a lot going for it, yet it wasn't great. It was cozy, harmless and fun, yet it didn't work well as a whole. I liked the songs and most of the score. I'm not a fan of Randy Newman, but I thought he was great in it. The movie drags at some points and especially in the bayou scenes. I feared that the comedy would've feel out of place when I saw the trailers and while it wasn't so, I still was never endeared by the comic characters, as Louis, Ray nor Mama Odie.
Charlotte was surprisingly tolerable and not grating, despite that she was the rich girl archetype (despite that her final arc was too rushed). Otherwise I thought the film was okay, just not great. At least Enchanted was more memorable with it's animated scenes, portraying the old-schoold Disney feel more authentically. It's a pity that the Revival era never truly improved afterwards, with the exception of Wreck-it-Ralph. I know many fans consider Tangled and Frozen to be superior, but I don't.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:52 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
It must have been released, it just hasn't been put on YouTube.

I also liked that Pocahontas had a (realistic) human friend around her age and I wished that Disney could've made more of those. I know Ariel had her sisters, but they weren't major characters (nor were the Bimbettes from BATB, but they were more on Gaston's side). It's really in my adult years that I've grown to dislike Nakoma, due to her prissy and no-nonsence nature. However, according to The Three Commentears, Nakoma had a lot of haters, but I haven't found them. Though what's contradicting is how that despite this, I actually defend Nakoma's decision for actually not lying to Pocahontas when she gets to meet John Smith (for obvious reasons).

And yes, I'm glad they didn't made Nakoma the jealous friend, though she easily could've been. After all, she cites her attraction to Kocoum at the beginning of her film. But obviously the film never surrounds around it afterwards :P It's a pity that Disney didn't gave their female protagonists more friends until Tiana (while Nakoma was at least more realistic, at least Charlotte was charicatured and made for comic relief).

Fair enough. I used to like him when I was a kid and he reminded me of Jafar as a beggar. Even my mom and aunt (who I saw the movie with) liked him.

I won't say that Pascal was the best Disney sidekick ever, but I liked him for what he was. Despite that he never had a real closure with Flynn. Which really was a problem in Aladdin. where none of the lovebirds had closures with the pets from their love interests (with the exception of Carpet, who was polite to Jasmine).

I know. I remember being some rumors about Tangled being hand drawn or at least look like hand drawn after The Princess and the Frog was released. At least something more innovative would've been nice. Did you see the test clip that exists in YouTube about Rapunzel with a squirrel saying that she doesn't believe in magic?

According to The Art of Walt Disney: From Mickey Mouse to the Magic Kingdoms and Beyond, Glen Keane was asked to switch back to hand drawn, but he wanted to explore the possibilites with adapting this tale in CGI. So he's to blame, hahaha :D :P

That's true. I remember the concept art of the shedding tear was the one that made the naysayers gain hope in the movie. Don't forget how everyone were freaking off from the trailer and saying that Disney had gone full DreamWorks mode.

Really? I know people where whining about I See The Light being structured and having the same chords as Menken's earlier ballads. But at least we got to have an actual love duet between a love couple, which has been the only one in this Revival era (unless you'll count Love is an Open Door from Frozen). However, I See The Light is the best song from Tangled and therefore my favorite.

OK. Disney could still do it, despite how they've given the Norwegian location to Frozen (which was at least a welcome, due to me being Norwegian, though a little contrived, despite how the original tale of The Snow Queen never took place in Norway)

Fair enough. There were so much buzz about how daring The Prince of Egypt was, yet Hunchback was more controversial, if you think about it.

Haha, funny that you ask about that! When I saw A Bug's Life theatrically for the first time, I loved it and thought it was inferior. Later viewings has made me less fond of it. It's not bad, it's just that it's not as good as it initially was. Yet I still have a certain fondness for A Bug's Life. But now I consider Antz to be the better picture of the two. I saw Antz first.

Not only The Black Cauldron, The Rescuers Down Under too!

It's one of my favorite books, due to it's sheer honesty. It certainly has more valuable information about Hunchback where you don't find elsewhere! Despite that it doesn't have all the facts right and does nitpick a little about certain plot holes, it is a valuable book for any Disnerd! It's been ten years since I bought it online.

Nope. I remember seeing the direct-to-video sequels a long time ago and finding them just meh. I haven't seen the new CGI movies.
New Line Cinema were the ones who released The Swan Princess. It's remarkable despite that the brand has become a franchise, The Swan Princess is still leagues behind the legacy and recognition of the Princess franchise.
I miss the days when Disney weren't the only ones who were associated with Princess related franchises. It's still an overlooked movie and haven't really gotten as much attention as Anastasia, per say, which I personally think that has a huge fanbase.

Fair enough. But there are still children who wants to open their own restaurant.

Exactly. It's remarkable how none of those three has their hair down and the two sisters always has their hair braided. With the exception of Cinderella and Pocahontas, you barely saw a hand drawn Princess with braids. I think I've read somewhere that it was easier to animate a braid in CGI.

Yeah, I liked her more in the concept art, especially in those early ones where she had wings and was slimmer (like a African American version of Tinker Bell). Though I stand by my statement that I did like her final design. The naysayers have even whined about her not looking dark enough in Ralph Breaks the Internet

I liked David. He was a good character and someone who actually helped the family. Though I guess his purpose was to be the love interest for Nani, I thought that he was a fairly nice addition.

What do you think otherwise about Lilo & Stitch?

I agree that Mulan is more comedic when she impersonates as a man, but she also has her comedic moments when she's dressed as a bride as well and meets the Matchmaker.

True, I know many people are shocked by Terk being a guy. At first I thought that Terk was going to be guy, despite being voiced by Rosie O'Donell. And initially she was going to be it, when the gender swap was suggested. Even the The Legend of Tarzan pokes fun at this issue.

Yeah, it's remarkable that Jane is a rare Disney heroine of the nineties who doesn't even get to sing (which gets to my aforementioned rant about the non-Broadway policy in Tarzan). The same applies to Kida. But personally I think the Disney Princess franchise could've included all the actual Princesses. I've always found Mulan's inclusion to be contrived. Call me a purist :P

I remember there was some complaints about the swap of love interest when the official synopsis of Tangled was announced.

Hahaha, nice catch! It's a shallow comparsion, but still legit. But I still have to disagree, since I found them different. I felt the CGI in Fantasia 2000 was off, but at least we saw a variety of designs, so I find it legit. What are your thoughts about Fantasia 2000, btw?

True, but at least Simba's trauma is more overt; His father was killed as a child. I'm not trying to neglect Quasi's trauma, but at least it's more easier to handle such a overt trauma as Simba's than Quasi's, despite that Quasi would've logically also been traumatized. Now that I know how to live with such a trauma, I know.

Well said. TPATF had a lot going for it, yet it wasn't great. It was cozy, harmless and fun, yet it didn't work well as a whole. I liked the songs and most of the score. I'm not a fan of Randy Newman, but I thought he was great in it. The movie drags at some points and especially in the bayou scenes. I feared that the comedy would've feel out of place when I saw the trailers and while it wasn't so, I still was never endeared by the comic characters, as Louis, Ray nor Mama Odie.
Charlotte was surprisingly tolerable and not grating, despite that she was the rich girl archetype (despite that her final arc was too rushed). Otherwise I thought the film was okay, just not great. At least Enchanted was more memorable with it's animated scenes, portraying the old-schoold Disney feel more authentically. It's a pity that the Revival era never truly improved afterwards, with the exception of Wreck-it-Ralph. I know many fans consider Tangled and Frozen to be superior, but I don't.

Oh ok. Perhaps the Simba's Pride episode was put on YouTube for a while and deleted. Maybe it'll come back soon.

I don't mind the lack of human friends for the princesses, because typically part of the narrative is that the princess is isolated and alone. It wouldn't work to have Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Belle, and even Jasmine to an extent have peers their own age. Cinderella might get some social outlet in the market, like we see in the live-action film, but those moments would be few. Ariel and Pocahontas have the most balanced home lives so it makes sense that they had the most companions, human and animal both.

I don't realy mind the convict in Hunchback. It was just that he would say "dang" which felt really anachronistic imo.

It's true that Rajah doesn't ever get to bond with Aladdin and Abu with Jasmine, but the fact that they all get together in the battle scene seems to unify them, plus the Genie's group hug. The TV series fixes this though.

I've read the story about Glen Keane wanting to stick with CGI. It's ironic that we can almost blame him for the end of hand-drawn animation lol, because if he had switched back, Tangled likely would still have been a huge hit and Disney would have felt reaffirmed with 2D animation. I've seen the test clip you mentioned. It was part of the earlier satirical version called Rapunzel Unbraided, the inverse of Enchanted.

The Tangled trailer was absolutely awful though and frankly the final film wasn't much of an improvement, at least to me.

I See the Light is my favorite song from Tangled as well (not that that's saying much). I guess we really haven't had any major romances in any of the other Revival films besides Frozen so it makes since that there's a dearth of duets.

Disney has certainly reused locations for their films before like Africa, France, England, etc. so another film set in Norway wouldn't be a big deal, especially since the time period is so different from Frozen. If I'm correct, The Snow Queen was set in Denmark. I know Gerda's journey to rescue Kai takes her up north so I assumed that she crossed through Norway at some point. I'm not very familiar with Scandinavia's geography but I guess you would be able to tell which locations and countries she passed through to get to the Snow Queen's palace.

I think Hunchback was also more controversial because it was Disney so it was a bigger name and Disney wasn't normally connected to such mature themes. Dreamworks was still a relatively new animation studio.

I definitely need to give Antz a try then if you like it better now.

Lol, I forgot completely about The Rescuers Down Under. That's how little I regard that movie. One of my favorite parts about the book is how it includes info on attractions for the Disney Parks as well.

Anastasia definitely has a huge fanbase and I'm proud that the film is still beloved to this day. I'd say The Swan Princess' fanbase isn't as big but it's surely still one of the better remembered non-Disney animated films considering the franchise is ongoing to this day. It's probably the best known non-Disney Princess film after Anastasia.

I see Esmeralda and Jasmine looking similar but I don't see any resemblance between Mulan and frankly any of the 90s heroines. I always found Mulan to be quite plain which made sense since she was originally more of a classical Chinese beauty but they realized that she didn't realistically come off as a man in disguise so her features were changed to make her less beautiful.

There are some kids who want to be a chef, but that's a very small number considering how many professions there are. It would be just as limiting if Tiana's dream was to be a cop or a ballerina. The other princesses have much more vague dreams which are more universal (wanting a better life, adventure, romance, etc.) compared to Tiana's.

Penny had braids in The Rescuers if that counts for something. Tiana, Elsa, and Anna all not having their hair down is even more reason for me not to like them lol. Too bad I can't include Rapunzel in that list.

There was concept art of Maddie/Tiana having wings? I don't think I've seen that before. I also noticed that in concept art, she looked generally happier and fresher, or maybe that comes from looking more youthful. It seems the final movie version always looks harassed and annoyed, probably because if she isn't working, then she's stuck with Naveen. I guess most of her human scenes are in the beginning anyway so she doesn't have as many reasons to smile then.

Lilo & Stitch is my favorite Disney film from the 2000s. I loved it from the get-go despite it not being a very traditional Disney film. I had so much merchandise for it back in the day because they really went all out back then, not just Stitch but Lilo. It was only after the film's initial success that the only merchandise that would still exist would be all based on Stitch. I wish Lilo got more credit as well since she's half the film. Wish Chris Sanders would be able to make American Dog now that Lasseter is gone. There's really nothing in common with it and Bolt so American Dog could exist on its own imo.

You're right about Mulan being comical in the matchmaker scene, but it exists more to showcase how out-of-place and awkward the character is in a traditional setting so I guess I didn't really think that she's a genuinely funny character, unlike Jane with her more British sense of humor.

Terk was meant to be a guy until Rosie got the role and felt that there was no reason Terk couldn't be the girl best friend to Tarzan. I think the choice was inspired to say the least.

Kida's lack of singing doesn't surprise me. Atlantis was never meant to be a musical and songs wouldn't fit in the film. What surprises me more is that the makers of BATB and Hunchback are the ones who created Atlantis lol. I don't blame you on Mulan's inclusion. I think Pocahontas is a natural fit for the most part, and I think even Esmeralda fits better than Mulan in many respects.

I wasn't too pleased about Rapunzel and Flynn changing royal roles either. Rapunzel didn't bother me too much but Flynn being a thief did. If they had gone the Bastion route, I would have liked it more since the character had more depth imo unlike Flynn with his tacked-on Eugene backstory.

I like Fantasia 2000 and I think it gets a bad rep. I can understand the hate towards some of the celeb presenters, but the overall segments aren't as mediocre or awful as some people suggest. My favorite is Rhapsody in Blue and to this day, whenever I sit in United Airlines, I think of the Disney segment. The Firebird is my other favorite because I love the animation of the sprite.

I think Simba's trauma is more complex though than just his dad dying since he spent months/years believing himself to be responsible. I feel like that type of guilt is hard to let go even after he learns the truth from Scar, because that's still months/years that he was separated from his pride and neglecting his responsibilities.

What are your thoughts on Wreck-It Ralph 2 from what you've seen so far?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Hey, sorry for my late reply. I've been out of town lately, so therefore I wasn't able to reply before now.

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I don't mind the lack of human friends for the princesses, because typically part of the narrative is that the princess is isolated and alone. It wouldn't work to have Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Belle, and even Jasmine to an extent have peers their own age. Cinderella might get some social outlet in the market, like we see in the live-action film, but those moments would be few. Ariel and Pocahontas have the most balanced home lives so it makes sense that they had the most companions, human and animal both.

Yeah. At least Cinderella II actually showed our Cindy's brief socializing with the townspeople as well.

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It's true that Rajah doesn't ever get to bond with Aladdin and Abu with Jasmine, but the fact that they all get together in the battle scene seems to unify them, plus the Genie's group hug. The TV series fixes this though.

True. I've noticed that Rajah was the least featured character in Aladdin & The King of Thieves. It used to irk me back then :P

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I've read the story about Glen Keane wanting to stick with CGI. It's ironic that we can almost blame him for the end of hand-drawn animation lol, because if he had switched back, Tangled likely would still have been a huge hit and Disney would have felt reaffirmed with 2D animation.

Yeah, right? :P It would be tempting to blame him for the downfall. But frankly, it's not entirely his fault either. I find it really amusing how people are so quick to blame one person or movie for the demise of hand drawn, when the truth is that it happened gradually.

Do you honestly Tangled would've been a huge hit if it was hand drawn?

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I've seen the test clip you mentioned. It was part of the earlier satirical version called Rapunzel Unbraided, the inverse of Enchanted.

Yeah. Wonder if it was leaked. I remember it was released long before the movie came out. While I don't like Rapunzel's design in that clip, at least the clip was intriguing on itself, since it was at least a sneak peak. I remember seeing the intro for Rapunzel Unbraided as well, back in 2005, if you've seen that one.

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The Tangled trailer was absolutely awful though and frankly the final film wasn't much of an improvement, at least to me.

I didn't utterly hate the trailer as the majority, but of course it was off-putting. I remember there was a storyboard version of it leaked in the beginning of 2010 and it had the same irreverent mode. But instead of Pink's Trouble, they had Miley Cyrus' Girls Just Want to Have Fun. I'm glad they didn't went with that one.
Why didn't you like Tangled?

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I See the Light is my favorite song from Tangled as well (not that that's saying much). I guess we really haven't had any major romances in any of the other Revival films besides Frozen so it makes since that there's a dearth of duets.

Frozen could've definitively had a duet between Kristoff and Anna, since they were a couple after all.

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Disney has certainly reused locations for their films before like Africa, France, England, etc. so another film set in Norway wouldn't be a big deal, especially since the time period is so different from Frozen.

Well said. Disney has reused several same locations several times, especially the European ones as France and England and even the US. At least Africa must have been a headscratcher, due to it being so invigorating, that Disney must have had a little bit of confusion when they made Tarzan (in fact they had, since they wanted to differentiate it from The Lion King). At least Africa is more diverse, so it could work. However, according to The Art of Mulan book, one crewmember cited that Disney were not going to make another Chinese story. Which is in theory fair, but now they're also heading for Dragon Empire, which looks that could've been set in China, despite that it hasn't been made official

What are your thoughts about Dragon Empire?

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If I'm correct, The Snow Queen was set in Denmark. I know Gerda's journey to rescue Kai takes her up north so I assumed that she crossed through Norway at some point. I'm not very familiar with Scandinavia's geography but I guess you would be able to tell which locations and countries she passed through to get to the Snow Queen's palace.

Denmark is below Norway. So you should know about this, since Scandinavia is my region :P When I became a older tween and interested in geography, I thought it was peculiar that The Little Mermaid wasn't set in Denmark. Yet according to The Legacy Collection CD (if you collect those), the crew deliberately wanted to stray away from the Danish settings and rely on the non-geographical fairy tale settings (I used to think that Snow White took place in a non-specific European kingdom, but it's confirmed that it takes place in Germany in one of the Art of-books. I know there are some theories about Cinderella taking place in France, but has it been confirmed). Which also could've been said about Tangled.

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I think Hunchback was also more controversial because it was Disney so it was a bigger name and Disney wasn't normally connected to such mature themes. Dreamworks was still a relatively new animation studio.

True

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Lol, I forgot completely about The Rescuers Down Under. That's how little I regard that movie.

Really? You don't like it at all?

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Anastasia definitely has a huge fanbase and I'm proud that the film is still beloved to this day. I'd say The Swan Princess' fanbase isn't as big but it's surely still one of the better remembered non-Disney animated films considering the franchise is ongoing to this day. It's probably the best known non-Disney Princess film after Anastasia.

True. Some people claims that Anastasia is underrated, but frankly I think that it has a huge fanbase and gets a lot of recognition. The Swan Princess has it's lovers, but I also see a lot of haters for it as well.

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I see Esmeralda and Jasmine looking similar but I don't see any resemblance between Mulan and frankly any of the 90s heroines. I always found Mulan to be quite plain which made sense since she was originally more of a classical Chinese beauty but they realized that she didn't realistically come off as a man in disguise so her features were changed to make her less beautiful.

True, but I've always found Mulan beautiful in her own right. She just had lesser boobs than her predecessors :P

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There are some kids who want to be a chef, but that's a very small number considering how many professions there are. It would be just as limiting if Tiana's dream was to be a cop or a ballerina. The other princesses have much more vague dreams which are more universal (wanting a better life, adventure, romance, etc.) compared to Tiana's.

True. I remember Nostalgia Chick even pointing that out in one of her videos and while I didn't thought their dreams were as vague as she made them to be, at least I can see it. But Tiana was certainly praised for her ambition when her movie came out.

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Tiana, Elsa, and Anna all not having their hair down is even more reason for me not to like them lol. Too bad I can't include Rapunzel in that list.

Really? Why not? I thought Rapunzel looked good with braids (she almost looked like a Viking girl). However, it's remarkable that so few of the hand drawn princesses has braids, despite that we'll see a brief scene of Pocahontas getting braided by Meeko (if you didn't know, that scene was made for consumer products and wasn't supposed to be in the movie, but since Pocahontas' hair was such a character of it's own, there were some discussions about it being tied at some places).

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There was concept art of Maddie/Tiana having wings? I don't think I've seen that before. I also noticed that in concept art, she looked generally happier and fresher, or maybe that comes from looking more youthful. It seems the final movie version always looks harassed and annoyed, probably because if she isn't working, then she's stuck with Naveen. I guess most of her human scenes are in the beginning anyway so she doesn't have as many reasons to smile then.

Sorry, I was wrong. I thought she had wings, but then I looked more closely and realized that she didn't have them. But here's the concept art, anyways: https://www.google.no/search?q=Tiana+co ... 1035221620

I didn't thought she always looked harassed and annoyed, but frankly, I thought some of her happy moments seemed a little off. They weren't as subtly animated and over the top happy. Yet I thought she looked best as a human. Tiana as a frog looked generic (though Naveen looked good as a frog).

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Lilo & Stitch is my favorite Disney film from the 2000s. I loved it from the get-go despite it not being a very traditional Disney film. I had so much merchandise for it back in the day because they really went all out back then, not just Stitch but Lilo. It was only after the film's initial success that the only merchandise that would still exist would be all based on Stitch. I wish Lilo got more credit as well since she's half the film. Wish Chris Sanders would be able to make American Dog now that Lasseter is gone. There's really nothing in common with it and Bolt so American Dog could exist on its own imo.

To be honest, I'm muddled about Lilo & Stitch. There are many things that I genuniely like about this movie (the songs, the score, the setting, Lilo's character), yet I find the film flawed as a whole. The films weakest link is it's screenplay, which is muddled, cluttered and not particularly tidy and cohesive.
The second problem is there's no chemistry nor dynamic between our two leads; He just serves as her surrogate, while he's using her all along, before making his turn into the very end, despite not truly being earned (and only then he showed his affection for Lilo, despite having none through the entire movie). The third problem is that Stitch's character arc is pretty unsatisfying; He does nothing besides bringing his new family down and when you've thought that he had learned and grown (after he leaves with the book), he repeats the same mistake by escaping to Lilo's house and putting her in danger.

In fact, Lilo is frankly a much more compelling character (despite her flaws); She's the one who has gone through an actual trauma and therefore has a more compelling storyline, but the movie stresses the issue that Stitch is the character to feel the most sorry for (despite not having a genuine reason to do so). I know Stitch was the first character created, but Lilo's storyline was the most inspired one and therefore should've been the main plot. Stitch's storyline just seemed shoehorned in.

I've seen Bolt once, but I thought it was just meh. It was forgettable, generic and unmemorable. Not even John Travolta could save this movie. I know there were many rants about Miley Cyrus' voice being annoying, but I thought she was fine in this movie.

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You're right about Mulan being comical in the matchmaker scene, but it exists more to showcase how out-of-place and awkward the character is in a traditional setting so I guess I didn't really think that she's a genuinely funny character, unlike Jane with her more British sense of humor.

True, but if you're going to be technical, at least Cri-Kee is to blame for that disaster :P And Mulan was noble enough to not blame him.

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Terk was meant to be a guy until Rosie got the role and felt that there was no reason Terk couldn't be the girl best friend to Tarzan. I think the choice was inspired to say the least.

But there are many people who doesn't think so :P To be honest, at first I wanted Terk to be a boy, because I thought it seemed off that she was a female. But now I've come to terms with it. And I don't know if I've said this priorly, but I was one of the minorities who actually liked her. I never went gaga for her, but I thought she was tolerable, despite that I understand those who detested her. I remember reading a user review on IMDb that said that if he/she were Tarzan, he/she would've escaped from the jungle because of her, hahaha!

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Kida's lack of singing doesn't surprise me. Atlantis was never meant to be a musical and songs wouldn't fit in the film. What surprises me more is that the makers of BATB and Hunchback are the ones who created Atlantis lol.

True. It's definitively a departure from them. But Atlantis was meant to be a departure nonetheless. At least one thing Atlantis shares in common with Hunchback is how there is a interracial couple (a fair male and a dark-skinned gal) and how that girl needs to be rescued in the climax, but also doesn't participate at the first part of the climax (though in Kida's case, she saves her city, but unconsciously).

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I don't blame you on Mulan's inclusion. I think Pocahontas is a natural fit for the most part, and I think even Esmeralda fits better than Mulan in many respects.

Yeah. I'm probably repeating myself by saying that Pocahontas chief blood is the reason for her inclusion (it would be easy to label her "royal" blood as a contrivance, since that was what I thought as a child, but she actually was the daughter of a Chief in the real life) But the remarkable thing is how Pocahontas is the very least promoted of the Princesses. She's rarely featured on the official merchandise and wasn't even included in Sofia the First. I've seen that a downgrade in Mulan's promotion in the franchise lately, but never as much as Pocahontas.

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I wasn't too pleased about Rapunzel and Flynn changing royal roles either. Rapunzel didn't bother me too much but Flynn being a thief did. If they had gone the Bastion route, I would have liked it more since the character had more depth imo unlike Flynn with his tacked-on Eugene backstory.

Bastion, was that supposed to be the Gypsy-like Flynn or the Kristoff-esque Flynn?

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I like Fantasia 2000 and I think it gets a bad rep. I can understand the hate towards some of the celeb presenters, but the overall segments aren't as mediocre or awful as some people suggest. My favorite is Rhapsody in Blue and to this day, whenever I sit in United Airlines, I think of the Disney segment. The Firebird is my other favorite because I love the animation of the sprite.

I thought Fantasia 2000 was okay. Not brilliant, nor awful, just okay. It wasn't as memorable as it's predecessor, but at least it had some nice visuals and was passable and watchable enough. The Firebird had some inspired animation, since I love the forest films of Disney. It's a pity that the third Fantasia film got scrapped, since I like the shorts that were made for it (especially The Little Matchgirl). Do you like the original Fantasia?

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I think Simba's trauma is more complex though than just his dad dying since he spent months/years believing himself to be responsible. I feel like that type of guilt is hard to let go even after he learns the truth from Scar, because that's still months/years that he was separated from his pride and neglecting his responsibilities.

Fair enough. What's even more remarkable is how the Movie cites how Simba is responsible for the death, yet never truly dwelling on what it truly means by that. There was a discussion on IMDb about it (that it likely meant that Simba thought he had killed his father), but an expansion of what that truly meant would've been too complex for a Disney movie.

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What are your thoughts on Wreck-It Ralph 2 from what you've seen so far?

Not digging it. I won't judge the film until I see the movie, but the film seems shoehorned in to market several properties, not to be a exploration of the actual video game universe that the first film was about. The storyline seems to add some depth to Vanellope, yet she seems to be even more self-centered and off-putting that she initially was. I didn't mind the Princess inclusion, cause I'm usually not against such meta-things (as long as it's done with taste). Yet after having seen the designs, they look mediocre (yes, they're supposed to be avatars, but they could at least resemble their former selves more). Wreck-It-Ralph is my favorite movie from this Revival era, so it's a shame that it's receving a sequel that just seems like a gimmick. But I won't judge. If there's ever going to be a triology, then let it least explore the world of video games.
Did you like the first Wreck-It-Ralph, btw?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:39 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Hey, sorry for my late reply. I've been out of town lately, so therefore I wasn't able to reply before now.

Yeah. At least Cinderella II actually showed our Cindy's brief socializing with the townspeople as well.

True. I've noticed that Rajah was the least featured character in Aladdin & The King of Thieves. It used to irk me back then :P

Yeah, right? :P It would be tempting to blame him for the downfall. But frankly, it's not entirely his fault either. I find it really amusing how people are so quick to blame one person or movie for the demise of hand drawn, when the truth is that it happened gradually.

Do you honestly Tangled would've been a huge hit if it was hand drawn?

Yeah. Wonder if it was leaked. I remember it was released long before the movie came out. While I don't like Rapunzel's design in that clip, at least the clip was intriguing on itself, since it was at least a sneak peak. I remember seeing the intro for Rapunzel Unbraided as well, back in 2005, if you've seen that one.

I didn't utterly hate the trailer as the majority, but of course it was off-putting. I remember there was a storyboard version of it leaked in the beginning of 2010 and it had the same irreverent mode. But instead of Pink's Trouble, they had Miley Cyrus' Girls Just Want to Have Fun. I'm glad they didn't went with that one.
Why didn't you like Tangled?

Frozen could've definitively had a duet between Kristoff and Anna, since they were a couple after all.

Well said. Disney has reused several same locations several times, especially the European ones as France and England and even the US. At least Africa must have been a headscratcher, due to it being so invigorating, that Disney must have had a little bit of confusion when they made Tarzan (in fact they had, since they wanted to differentiate it from The Lion King). At least Africa is more diverse, so it could work. However, according to The Art of Mulan book, one crewmember cited that Disney were not going to make another Chinese story. Which is in theory fair, but now they're also heading for Dragon Empire, which looks that could've been set in China, despite that it hasn't been made official

What are your thoughts about Dragon Empire?

Denmark is below Norway. So you should know about this, since Scandinavia is my region :P When I became a older tween and interested in geography, I thought it was peculiar that The Little Mermaid wasn't set in Denmark. Yet according to The Legacy Collection CD (if you collect those), the crew deliberately wanted to stray away from the Danish settings and rely on the non-geographical fairy tale settings (I used to think that Snow White took place in a non-specific European kingdom, but it's confirmed that it takes place in Germany in one of the Art of-books. I know there are some theories about Cinderella taking place in France, but has it been confirmed). Which also could've been said about Tangled.

Really? You don't like it at all (The Rescuers Down Under)?

True. Some people claims that Anastasia is underrated, but frankly I think that it has a huge fanbase and gets a lot of recognition. The Swan Princess has it's lovers, but I also see a lot of haters for it as well.

True, but I've always found Mulan beautiful in her own right. She just had lesser boobs than her predecessors :P

Really? Why not? I thought Rapunzel looked good with braids (she almost looked like a Viking girl). However, it's remarkable that so few of the hand drawn princesses has braids, despite that we'll see a brief scene of Pocahontas getting braided by Meeko (if you didn't know, that scene was made for consumer products and wasn't supposed to be in the movie, but since Pocahontas' hair was such a character of it's own, there were some discussions about it being tied at some places).

Sorry, I was wrong. I thought she had wings, but then I looked more closely and realized that she didn't have them. But here's the concept art, anyways: https://www.google.no/search?q=Tiana+co ... 1035221620

I didn't thought she always looked harassed and annoyed, but frankly, I thought some of her happy moments seemed a little off. They weren't as subtly animated and over the top happy. Yet I thought she looked best as a human. Tiana as a frog looked generic (though Naveen looked good as a frog).

To be honest, I'm muddled about Lilo & Stitch. There are many things that I genuniely like about this movie (the songs, the score, the setting, Lilo's character), yet I find the film flawed as a whole. The films weakest link is it's screenplay, which is muddled, cluttered and not particularly tidy and cohesive.
The second problem is there's no chemistry nor dynamic between our two leads; He just serves as her surrogate, while he's using her all along, before making his turn into the very end, despite not truly being earned (and only then he showed his affection for Lilo, despite having none through the entire movie). The third problem is that Stitch's character arc is pretty unsatisfying; He does nothing besides bringing his new family down and when you've thought that he had learned and grown (after he leaves with the book), he repeats the same mistake by escaping to Lilo's house and putting her in danger.

In fact, Lilo is frankly a much more compelling character (despite her flaws); She's the one who has gone through an actual trauma and therefore has a more compelling storyline, but the movie stresses the issue that Stitch is the character to feel the most sorry for (despite not having a genuine reason to do so). I know Stitch was the first character created, but Lilo's storyline was the most inspired one and therefore should've been the main plot. Stitch's storyline just seemed shoehorned in.

I've seen Bolt once, but I thought it was just meh. It was forgettable, generic and unmemorable. Not even John Travolta could save this movie. I know there were many rants about Miley Cyrus' voice being annoying, but I thought she was fine in this movie.

True, but if you're going to be technical, at least Cri-Kee is to blame for that disaster :P And Mulan was noble enough to not blame him.

But there are many people who doesn't think so :P To be honest, at first I wanted Terk to be a boy, because I thought it seemed off that she was a female. But now I've come to terms with it. And I don't know if I've said this priorly, but I was one of the minorities who actually liked her. I never went gaga for her, but I thought she was tolerable, despite that I understand those who detested her. I remember reading a user review on IMDb that said that if he/she were Tarzan, he/she would've escaped from the jungle because of her, hahaha!

True. It's definitively a departure from them. But Atlantis was meant to be a departure nonetheless. At least one thing Atlantis shares in common with Hunchback is how there is a interracial couple (a fair male and a dark-skinned gal) and how that girl needs to be rescued in the climax, but also doesn't participate at the first part of the climax (though in Kida's case, she saves her city, but unconsciously).

Yeah. I'm probably repeating myself by saying that Pocahontas chief blood is the reason for her inclusion (it would be easy to label her "royal" blood as a contrivance, since that was what I thought as a child, but she actually was the daughter of a Chief in the real life) But the remarkable thing is how Pocahontas is the very least promoted of the Princesses. She's rarely featured on the official merchandise and wasn't even included in Sofia the First. I've seen that a downgrade in Mulan's promotion in the franchise lately, but never as much as Pocahontas.

Bastion, was that supposed to be the Gypsy-like Flynn or the Kristoff-esque Flynn?

I thought Fantasia 2000 was okay. Not brilliant, nor awful, just okay. It wasn't as memorable as it's predecessor, but at least it had some nice visuals and was passable and watchable enough. The Firebird had some inspired animation, since I love the forest films of Disney. It's a pity that the third Fantasia film got scrapped, since I like the shorts that were made for it (especially The Little Matchgirl). Do you like the original Fantasia?

Fair enough. What's even more remarkable is how the Movie cites how Simba is responsible for the death, yet never truly dwelling on what it truly means by that. There was a discussion on IMDb about it (that it likely meant that Simba thought he had killed his father), but an expansion of what that truly meant would've been too complex for a Disney movie.

Not digging it. I won't judge the film until I see the movie, but the film seems shoehorned in to market several properties, not to be a exploration of the actual video game universe that the first film was about. The storyline seems to add some depth to Vanellope, yet she seems to be even more self-centered and off-putting that she initially was. I didn't mind the Princess inclusion, cause I'm usually not against such meta-things (as long as it's done with taste). Yet after having seen the designs, they look mediocre (yes, they're supposed to be avatars, but they could at least resemble their former selves more). Wreck-It-Ralph is my favorite movie from this Revival era, so it's a shame that it's receving a sequel that just seems like a gimmick. But I won't judge. If there's ever going to be a triology, then let it least explore the world of video games.
Did you like the first Wreck-It-Ralph, btw?

That's all right. Hope you had a nice trip.

Cinderella II took place after the original film though, but if Cinderella is socializing with the townspeople there, then likely she was already familiar with them beforehand.

To be fair, Rajah gets similar treatment in the first two films and the TV series as well. His inability to talk and communicate the way Iago and Abu do sort of limits him, not to mention his huge size. He can't go on all the adventures because he can't fly himself nor can he ride Carpet.

I don't know if Tangled would have been as huge a hit since I do think that the general populace gravitates more towards CGI now as hand-drawn animation feels dated to them, but I do think it would have still been a hit for Disney. Not to mention that the costs for this movie kept going up with every revision, so if Disney had just limited themselves to hand-drawn animation and not kept trying to change the film over and over, that may have reduced production costs as well.

I've seen the intro for Rapunzel Unbraided as well, but I couldn't really enjoy it because the quality of the video isn't very good. I don't mind Rapunzel's design in the clip though. She doesn't really look different from the final film, except for her dress which I prefer in Rapunzel Unbraided. Both the blue version in the test clip and the pink one sometimes seen in concept art.

I think we've discussed Tangled before, or at least, I complain about the film often enough that I feel I must have done so to you before. I don't like the Dreamworks style humor for Flynn and the animal sidekicks. I think Rapunzel is just an amalgam of all the princesses and tries way too hard to pander to today's generation by acting like a ditzy teenager (not to mention the "flaws" she was given like her gap tooth and freckles). Her character is too upbeat and optimistic to be realistic and I don't like how despite having been isolated to one room for eighteen years and having only interacted with one (or two if you count Pascal) people before, yet she still adapts to every new setting so well and has no issues socializing with others and getting them to like her. She's Disney's best definition of a Mary Sue imo. The songs aren't very compelling and I don't like the generic European setting. Snow White has a German theme and Cinderella takes so many French influences, but Tangled is a bizarre mix of elements that range from whole centuries and it's just off-putting.

I'm not sure where Frozen would fit in a duet between Kristoff and Anna since they don't become a couple until the very end.

There's been a twenty year gap between Mulan and now so I can see Disney taking on China again especially since there's a huge market for China now. It's interesting that one crewmember was so vocal as to say that lol. Funny how Aladdin was exempt from this since Sindbad was specifically a property they retained if they wanted to make a movie on that. If 9/11 hadn't occurred, it's possible that we might have Sindbad as another Middle Eastern set film.


There's not enough information on Dragon Empire for me to really be interested in it right now tbh. I like the fact that Disney is branching out to an Asian setting but I'd prefer Disney explore an Asian country that hasn't been utilized before like India, Japan, Thailand, or Indonesia to name a few (I don't count The Jungle Book). Also it sounds a little too much like generic fantasy right now to me. I prefer when Disney adapts books or folklore. There's an amazing book called "Where the Mountain Meets the Moon" which is written by a Chinese-American author. She chronicles the journey of a little girl, Minli, in ancient China and all her adventures are interspersed with old Chinese folktales and legends. A dragon is one of the major parts of the story so I'd rather Disney have adapted this. There are some great villains too so it would have been a great Disney film adaptation imo. A lot of people have called it a modern-day Wizard of Oz, which isn't to say that the book is generic and just the exact same story but dressed up in a different culture. The comparison is more apt if you take it as the book holding the same appeal that classics like The Wizard of Oz have and frankly its a great exposure of Chinese culture to little children. The author's own story is quite interesting as she describes looking down on her Chinese culture and stories as a child before learning to love them as an adult, hence her authoring this book and a few others as sequels. It won the Newbery Honor Award so that alone can tell you that it's a gem of a book.

Can you expland Lapland in The Snow Queen. Gerda is told that the Snow Queen resides there and on the way there she meets the Lap woman and the Finn woman so is Finland connected to Lapland? Also where do you think the palace with the prince and princess takes place? Denmark or Norway or some other country? And you are probably more familiar with the ethnic minorities in this region as well so what would the robber woman and the robber girl be or what region would they be from? Sorry for all those questions, but I've always wanted to track Gerda's journey on a map but I'm not familiar enough with the region. I'm assuming her village was set in Demark.

The Little Mermaid actually isn't set in Denmark either. Not just the Disney film, but the original fairytale. Andersen describes it with white sand and palm trees not to mention marble pillars in the palace and dancing girls dressed in gold. All of this suggests a Mediterranean and maybe even Ottoman setting. The prince is even described as having dark eyes which helps confirm that to me. The Disney film was confirmed to be set in the Mediterranean in the commentary I believe and besides Eric's coloring and the appearance of the sailors, you can also see that his kingdom is full of palm trees and grape vines to corroborate this. Sleeping Beauty is mixed between Germany and France. Epcot places Aurora in France but there's a strong case for Germany as well since the film takes elements from the German and French versions of the stories. Tangled is just all over the place but I do remember reading an interview that confirmed it to be set in Central Europe.

I haven't seen The Rescuers Down Under in years so I really don't remember all of it, but I never liked how Bernard and Bianca were sidelined. I also didn't care for how different the film was from the original since I love the original (it's my favorite Dark Ages film). The sequel lacks the mystery of the first plus the darker tone which I guess comes from having come out in the 1970s. Also McLeach is no Madame Medusa who I really love and I didn't care for the Australian setting either. People complain about the songs in The Rescuers but I quite like them and the sequel doesn't even have any so that's also a con.

I agree with you that Anastasia is very popular whereas The Swan Princess has a lot more haters. Even I sorta fit into that mentality since I used to love The Swan Princess but now I find it very flawed.

Lol, Mulan's breasts were probably just strapped down like we see in her reveal scene.

What I meant with my statement is that I like when the princesses have their hair down so Tiana, Elsa, and Anna not having their hair down gives me another excuse to not like them. Rapunzel is a character I strongly detest so I wish I could group her with the others. I actually like her braid very much and in fact, I think she looks better with it than she does with loose hair. Her hair is prettier in the concept art imo when it's more wild and not completely straight. I wasn't aware though that the Pocahontas braid scene was added just for the sake of merchandise but I don't find that hard to believe at all. It certainly explains why that scene only lasts a few seconds lol.

Yeah, those "wings" are really Tiana's wedding veil. She never wears it in the clipart and merchandise despite the fact that the only time she wears the green bayou dress in the film, she is also wearing a veil. I agree that frog Tiana looked generic. Frog Naveen was ok but I preferred Jean-Bob in The Swan Princess for nostalgic reasons I suppose.

I completely disagree that there is no chemistry between Lilo and Stitch's characters. I don't believe that the film and the characters would be so popular if the oh-so important dynamic between the two was missing. It's interesting though that you think that since while I've heard criticsm of Lilo & Stitch before, this is the first I've heard about Lilo and Stitch's relationship being lacking. While Stitch is using her, it's clear that her attempts to rehabilitate him have some effect. During Hawaiian Roller Coaster Ride, Stitch wants to go into the water and surf with the others despite the fact that he has a deadly aversion to water. He feels left out and you can see that he even builds himself a sand castle to get attention despite the fact that he destroys rather than creates. The Ugly Duckling story is also supposed to represent how lost he feels because of his destructive nature which essentially renders him unlovable to anyone (except Lilo). He reluctantly leaves the family but he does so because he is convinced by David that his arrival is what hurt Lilo and Nani's chances of staying together. Him silently watching Lilo and Nani as they are singing their goodbyes shows his affection for them imo. As for him putting Lilo in danger at the end, I'll give you that but I think he felt he could handle Jumbaa and Pleakley, not least because he knew Pleakley would never endanger Lilo. It was Gantu's unexpected arrival which changes things up.

I'm not sure I believe that the film stresses that Stitch is the character we should feel sorrow for. I think I get equal amounts of pathos for Lilo, but that's just me. Maybe your view that Stitch gets more attention is because audiences raised him to an almost ubiquitous level, whereas Lilo became more "forgotten" at least in comparison.

I actually do like Cri-Kee. I think anyone blaming a cricket for their problems would be a new low though.

I think I thought Terk was a guy as well for the longest time just like I thought Piglet and Rabbit were girls. Like you, I always liked Terk as well. She wasn't my absolute favorite but I quite enjoyed her and don't really get the hate for her. Lol at that user review. I've heard similar things including one very odd argument that the reason Jane isn't a Disney Princess and Tarzan has been forgotten by Disney is all because of Terk!

I didn't think about those parallels between Hunchback and Atlantis during the climax scene. You're quite right about all that.

Ever since the 2000s, Pocahontas has really been shunted to the sides which is a pity since she had quite a lot of merchandise in the 90s. I even rememnber that when the Disney Princess lineup first started, the two lowest selling dolls were Pocahontas and Mulan (naturally), but in fact Mulan was the absolute lowest. Pocahontas sold better than her and she still got a bit more merchandise than Mulan did in those early days of the DP franchise. That didn't last very long though. A pity, because Pocahontas is highly underrated (both the character and her movie) and I prefer her to Mulan.

Bastion was the Kristoff version of Flynn. I'm not sure what the name of the Romani one (who resembled Johnny Depp) was supposed to be. I imagine Bastion as well since I think Flynn's name only came about when the final character's design was created and they felt he was a homage to Errol Flynn (hence why he was supposed to have a mustache at one point).

I really like The Little Matchgirl as well but I have it on my DVD and Blu-Ray for The Little Mermaid so I don't feel the loss of Fantasia 2006 too hard. I would like to see future installments of Fantasia but the chance of that was already unlikely even when hand-drawn animation still existed, let alone now in the age of CGI.

That reminds me of how the IMDB discussion threads were all shut down. I thought that was a pity even though the troll problem was huge. The Disney films were generally exempt from that though.

From what I've read of the spoilers, what depth Vanellope had in the first film has been removed from her in this one so her character (along with Ralph's) is actually regressing. If we get a third Wreck-It Ralph, it'll probably be a spin-off of the Disney Princess characters with a cameo from Ralph to check in on Vanellope. As such, I see the franchise as having ended with the first film. Wreck-It Ralph is my favorite film from the Disney Revival as well, followed by Zootopia and then Frozen.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Quote:
That's all right. Hope you had a nice trip.

Thanks, I had.

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Cinderella II took place after the original film though, but if Cinderella is socializing with the townspeople there, then likely she was already familiar with them beforehand.

Well, but Cinderella II at least implied that she knew the townspeople before

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To be fair, Rajah gets similar treatment in the first two films and the TV series as well. His inability to talk and communicate the way Iago and Abu do sort of limits him, not to mention his huge size. He can't go on all the adventures because he can't fly himself nor can he ride Carpet.

True, but at least prior to Aladdin & The King of Thieves at least he got at least some screentime, whereas in the last movie he was just in for one scene.

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I don't know if Tangled would have been as huge a hit since I do think that the general populace gravitates more towards CGI now as hand-drawn animation feels dated to them, but I do think it would have still been a hit for Disney. Not to mention that the costs for this movie kept going up with every revision, so if Disney had just limited themselves to hand-drawn animation and not kept trying to change the film over and over, that may have reduced production costs as well.

True. That's an argument that I've heard from people, that the general masses considers hand drawn to be old fashion. It proves how shallow people are :P But it's truly a pity that full-length hand drawn animation has faded away. I think really both CGI and hand drawn has each of their pro and cons and should equally coexist (yes, call me politically correct, but I honetly think so).

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I've seen the intro for Rapunzel Unbraided as well, but I couldn't really enjoy it because the quality of the video isn't very good. I don't mind Rapunzel's design in the clip though. She doesn't really look different from the final film, except for her dress which I prefer in Rapunzel Unbraided. Both the blue version in the test clip and the pink one sometimes seen in concept art.

I somewhat liked the beginning of Rapunzel Unbraided, at least the sections of the kingdom. Which didn't look as different from what we saw from the final film. Afterwards it went downhill :P

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I'm not sure where Frozen would fit in a duet between Kristoff and Anna since they don't become a couple until the very end.

Fair enough.

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There's been a twenty year gap between Mulan and now so I can see Disney taking on China again especially since there's a huge market for China now.

Really? OK. I wonder if there's other aspects of Chinese culture that Disney didn't explore with Mulan.

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It's interesting that one crewmember was so vocal as to say that lol. Funny how Aladdin was exempt from this since Sindbad was specifically a property they retained if they wanted to make a movie on that. If 9/11 hadn't occurred, it's possible that we might have Sindbad as another Middle Eastern set film.

Do you honestly think that's the reason?

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There's not enough information on Dragon Empire for me to really be interested in it right now tbh. I like the fact that Disney is branching out to an Asian setting but I'd prefer Disney explore an Asian country that hasn't been utilized before like India, Japan, Thailand, or Indonesia to name a few (I don't count The Jungle Book). Also it sounds a little too much like generic fantasy right now to me. I prefer when Disney adapts books or folklore. There's an amazing book called "Where the Mountain Meets the Moon" which is written by a Chinese-American author. She chronicles the journey of a little girl, Minli, in ancient China and all her adventures are interspersed with old Chinese folktales and legends. A dragon is one of the major parts of the story so I'd rather Disney have adapted this. There are some great villains too so it would have been a great Disney film adaptation imo. A lot of people have called it a modern-day Wizard of Oz, which isn't to say that the book is generic and just the exact same story but dressed up in a different culture. The comparison is more apt if you take it as the book holding the same appeal that classics like The Wizard of Oz have and frankly its a great exposure of Chinese culture to little children. The author's own story is quite interesting as she describes looking down on her Chinese culture and stories as a child before learning to love them as an adult, hence her authoring this book and a few others as sequels. It won the Newbery Honor Award so that alone can tell you that it's a gem of a book.

OK. To be honest, I'm glad that Disney is developing an original project, but just like you, I think they've could've explored a different region of Asia. I would've liked it more if it was a musical. I don't mind if Disney adapt original stories. Now that Lasseter is gone and this decade is heading for it's final, I wonder if the history is going to repeat itself and lead Disney through another dark age (and just to be said, I'm not a Lasseter fan, but I think Disney should've had a true Golden Age). Since the Revival era has been frequently compared to the Renaissance and for a legit reason, since history did repeat itself.

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Can you expland Lapland in The Snow Queen. Gerda is told that the Snow Queen resides there and on the way there she meets the Lap woman and the Finn woman so is Finland connected to Lapland? Also where do you think the palace with the prince and princess takes place? Denmark or Norway or some other country? And you are probably more familiar with the ethnic minorities in this region as well so what would the robber woman and the robber girl be or what region would they be from? Sorry for all those questions, but I've always wanted to track Gerda's journey on a map but I'm not familiar enough with the region. I'm assuming her village was set in Demark.

Lapland is in Finland, but I'm not so familiar with the original The Snow Queen story. Sorry.

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The Little Mermaid actually isn't set in Denmark either. Not just the Disney film, but the original fairytale. Andersen describes it with white sand and palm trees not to mention marble pillars in the palace and dancing girls dressed in gold. All of this suggests a Mediterranean and maybe even Ottoman setting. The prince is even described as having dark eyes which helps confirm that to me. The Disney film was confirmed to be set in the Mediterranean in the commentary I believe and besides Eric's coloring and the appearance of the sailors, you can also see that his kingdom is full of palm trees and grape vines to corroborate this.

OK. I don't remember if they mentioned it in the commentary, but now that you say it, you're right about the castle at least looking Mediterranean. Though the townspeople don't look as much Mediterranean. At least it can explain why Sebastian has an Jamaican accent :P

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Tangled is just all over the place but I do remember reading an interview that confirmed it to be set in Central Europe.

I've heard that it takes place in Spain, but it doesn't seem all Spanish for me.

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I haven't seen The Rescuers Down Under in years so I really don't remember all of it, but I never liked how Bernard and Bianca were sidelined. I also didn't care for how different the film was from the original since I love the original (it's my favorite Dark Ages film). The sequel lacks the mystery of the first plus the darker tone which I guess comes from having come out in the 1970s. Also McLeach is no Madame Medusa who I really love and I didn't care for the Australian setting either. People complain about the songs in The Rescuers but I quite like them and the sequel doesn't even have any so that's also a con.

I haven't seen the original The Rescuers in years, but I remember seeing it in my childhood and not liking it (despite liking the leads). I thought it was too dark, gloomy and tedious. But I know I should've given it another chance. I loved the sequel, which I remember seeing theatrcially and thinking that it was an improvement of it's predecessor in every way. Later on I've realized that The Rescuers Down Under is not as brilliant as I remember, but it's still a well-made and good movie and I've always thought it was unfair that it was neglected at the expense of it's Renaissance counterparts.

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What I meant with my statement is that I like when the princesses have their hair down so Tiana, Elsa, and Anna not having their hair down gives me another excuse to not like them. Rapunzel is a character I strongly detest so I wish I could group her with the others. I actually like her braid very much and in fact, I think she looks better with it than she does with loose hair. Her hair is prettier in the concept art imo when it's more wild and not completely straight.

At least Rapunzel's braid makes her hair distinctive. I'm torn about her hair, since I do somewhat likes how it moves, yet her hair is still pretty straight.

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Yeah, those "wings" are really Tiana's wedding veil. She never wears it in the clipart and merchandise despite the fact that the only time she wears the green bayou dress in the film, she is also wearing a veil. I agree that frog Tiana looked generic. Frog Naveen was ok but I preferred Jean-Bob in The Swan Princess for nostalgic reasons I suppose.

I heard that some people compared Naveen to Jean-Bob, especially in the teaser. But I don't see the comparisons. I have an affection for The Swan Princess, but I completely detest Jean-Bob, who I find self-absorbed and not particularly likable (not even John Cleese could save him).

I generally thought that Tiana lack a regular dress that was good enough for her. I did like her gowns, yet I disliked the yellow dress and the brown dress she wears as the Masquerade. I didn't liked how she had her hair into a bun.

Speaking of which, do you think the criticism of TPATF is the reason why Disney are so secretive with their films before releasing them now?

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I completely disagree that there is no chemistry between Lilo and Stitch's characters. I don't believe that the film and the characters would be so popular if the oh-so important dynamic between the two was missing. It's interesting though that you think that since while I've heard criticsm of Lilo & Stitch before, this is the first I've heard about Lilo and Stitch's relationship being lacking. While Stitch is using her, it's clear that her attempts to rehabilitate him have some effect. During Hawaiian Roller Coaster Ride, Stitch wants to go into the water and surf with the others despite the fact that he has a deadly aversion to water. He feels left out and you can see that he even builds himself a sand castle to get attention despite the fact that he destroys rather than creates. The Ugly Duckling story is also supposed to represent how lost he feels because of his destructive nature which essentially renders him unlovable to anyone (except Lilo). He reluctantly leaves the family but he does so because he is convinced by David that his arrival is what hurt Lilo and Nani's chances of staying together. Him silently watching Lilo and Nani as they are singing their goodbyes shows his affection for them imo. As for him putting Lilo in danger at the end, I'll give you that but I think he felt he could handle Jumbaa and Pleakley, not least because he knew Pleakley would never endanger Lilo. It was Gantu's unexpected arrival which changes things up.
I'm not sure I believe that the film stresses that Stitch is the character we should feel sorrow for. I think I get equal amounts of pathos for Lilo, but that's just me. Maybe your view that Stitch gets more attention is because audiences raised him to an almost ubiquitous level, whereas Lilo became more "forgotten" at least in comparison.

Alright, fair enough. I know that it seemed like I was tarnishing the movie and I apologize for that. However, while you're right, I just find Lilo and Stitch's dynamic to be highly underdeveloped. I think their dynamic is highly improved in the series.

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I actually do like Cri-Kee. I think anyone blaming a cricket for their problems would be a new low though.

I also liked Cri-Kee. I know some complained about his lack of screentime, but he did had fairly some. I know some have compared him to Flit in Pocahontas and while I can see that, at least Cri-Kee is more endearing. Besides, one complaint I hear about him is how he's just a shoehorned sidekick, but he was deliberately made to serve as Mushu's sidekick. I've also heared complains about him dissapearing in several scenes, but I don't see it.

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I think I thought Terk was a guy as well for the longest time just like I thought Piglet and Rabbit were girls.

Really?? OK, I never thought that Piglet and Rabbit were girls. But speaking of mixed gender, in my childhood I thought Ursula was a male, due to her being voiced by an artist with a very masculine voice in the Norwegian dub. So I was confused that she was called a seawitch.

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Like you, I always liked Terk as well. She wasn't my absolute favorite but I quite enjoyed her and don't really get the hate for her. Lol at that user review. I've heard similar things including one very odd argument that the reason Jane isn't a Disney Princess and Tarzan has been forgotten by Disney is all because of Terk!

Really? Dumbasses :P People come up with all ridiculous excuses for failures. I never thought that Tarzan was as forgotten as many people made it out to be, but of course it's not as prominent as it used to be.

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I didn't think about those parallels between Hunchback and Atlantis during the climax scene. You're quite right about all that.

I'm always right ;)

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Ever since the 2000s, Pocahontas has really been shunted to the sides which is a pity since she had quite a lot of merchandise in the 90s. I even rememnber that when the Disney Princess lineup first started, the two lowest selling dolls were Pocahontas and Mulan (naturally), but in fact Mulan was the absolute lowest. Pocahontas sold better than her and she still got a bit more merchandise than Mulan did in those early days of the DP franchise. That didn't last very long though. A pity, because Pocahontas is highly underrated (both the character and her movie) and I prefer her to Mulan.

Really? I didn't know that Mulan was the least popular of the Princesses, due to me believing that she was popular enough. However, I liked Pocahontas the movie more than Mulan and certainly the character of Pocahontas was one of my favorites. But now I have an equal spot for them both. Mulan is likable on her own terms, but isn't allowed to truly shine in her first movie, since she becomes (ironically) duller through the first movie as she progresses. At least her personality is more consistent in the latter movie. I know many people consider them both to be bland and boring, especially Pocahontas. But I think that Pocahontas has more of a personality that she's given credit for, despite how I understand why people label her as boring. As for her merchandise, since her movie came out in the nineties, it's not strange why she was even more promoted back then.

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Bastion was the Kristoff version of Flynn. I'm not sure what the name of the Romani one (who resembled Johnny Depp) was supposed to be. I imagine Bastion as well since I think Flynn's name only came about when the final character's design was created and they felt he was a homage to Errol Flynn (hence why he was supposed to have a mustache at one point).

OK. Perhaps Bastion looked generic, but at least more gentle. It would've been interesting if they went with that design and I've heard theories than Kristoff was based on him (though Kristoff looks even more generic). I never thought that the Romani version of Flynn looked like Johnny Depp.

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I really like The Little Matchgirl as well but I have it on my DVD and Blu-Ray for The Little Mermaid so I don't feel the loss of Fantasia 2006 too hard. I would like to see future installments of Fantasia but the chance of that was already unlikely even when hand-drawn animation still existed, let alone now in the age of CGI.

True. I was thinking about it the other day that I wonder if there's ever going to be an new version of Fantasia in this CGI age. At least they could've made the CGI more painterly. At least that's something that could be said about Fantasia 2000, since all the segments had different styles.
Do you like Walt's Fantasia?

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That reminds me of how the IMDB discussion threads were all shut down. I thought that was a pity even though the troll problem was huge. The Disney films were generally exempt from that though.

Oh, I know about them! There were some trolls on the Disney sites (and especially those in the Pixar sites, especially when Brave came out), but the worst trolls were on the other sites (I won't mention which, but they were demented). One argument that I've heard from IMDb themselves was that the crew realized that "IMDb boards were no longer an imformative site with sharing and joy" and how "people moved on to other social medias than the IMDb boards". Now some of the threads has been transferred to Moviechat.org, but the trolls are still dominating.

Quote:
From what I've read of the spoilers, what depth Vanellope had in the first film has been removed from her in this one so her character (along with Ralph's) is actually regressing. If we get a third Wreck-It Ralph, it'll probably be a spin-off of the Disney Princess characters with a cameo from Ralph to check in on Vanellope. As such, I see the franchise as having ended with the first film.

Oh, I hope the third film will not center around the Princesses.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:46 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Well, but Cinderella II at least implied that she knew the townspeople before

True, but at least prior to Aladdin & The King of Thieves at least he got at least some screentime, whereas in the last movie he was just in for one scene.

True. That's an argument that I've heard from people, that the general masses considers hand drawn to be old fashion. It proves how shallow people are :P But it's truly a pity that full-length hand drawn animation has faded away. I think really both CGI and hand drawn has each of their pro and cons and should equally coexist (yes, call me politically correct, but I honetly think so).

I somewhat liked the beginning of Rapunzel Unbraided, at least the sections of the kingdom. Which didn't look as different from what we saw from the final film. Afterwards it went downhill :P

Really? OK. I wonder if there's other aspects of Chinese culture that Disney didn't explore with Mulan.

Do you honestly think that's the reason?

OK. To be honest, I'm glad that Disney is developing an original project, but just like you, I think they've could've explored a different region of Asia. I would've liked it more if it was a musical. I don't mind if Disney adapt original stories. Now that Lasseter is gone and this decade is heading for it's final, I wonder if the history is going to repeat itself and lead Disney through another dark age (and just to be said, I'm not a Lasseter fan, but I think Disney should've had a true Golden Age). Since the Revival era has been frequently compared to the Renaissance and for a legit reason, since history did repeat itself.

Lapland is in Finland, but I'm not so familiar with the original The Snow Queen story. Sorry.

OK. I don't remember if they mentioned it in the commentary, but now that you say it, you're right about the castle at least looking Mediterranean. Though the townspeople don't look as much Mediterranean. At least it can explain why Sebastian has an Jamaican accent :P

I've heard that it takes place in Spain, but it doesn't seem all Spanish for me.

I haven't seen the original The Rescuers in years, but I remember seeing it in my childhood and not liking it (despite liking the leads). I thought it was too dark, gloomy and tedious. But I know I should've given it another chance. I loved the sequel, which I remember seeing theatrcially and thinking that it was an improvement of it's predecessor in every way. Later on I've realized that The Rescuers Down Under is not as brilliant as I remember, but it's still a well-made and good movie and I've always thought it was unfair that it was neglected at the expense of it's Renaissance counterparts.

I heard that some people compared Naveen to Jean-Bob, especially in the teaser. But I don't see the comparisons. I have an affection for The Swan Princess, but I completely detest Jean-Bob, who I find self-absorbed and not particularly likable (not even John Cleese could save him).

I generally thought that Tiana lack a regular dress that was good enough for her. I did like her gowns, yet I disliked the yellow dress and the brown dress she wears as the Masquerade. I didn't liked how she had her hair into a bun.

Speaking of which, do you think the criticism of TPATF is the reason why Disney are so secretive with their films before releasing them now?

Alright, fair enough. I know that it seemed like I was tarnishing the movie and I apologize for that. However, while you're right, I just find Lilo and Stitch's dynamic to be highly underdeveloped. I think their dynamic is highly improved in the series.

I also liked Cri-Kee. I know some complained about his lack of screentime, but he did had fairly some. I know some have compared him to Flit in Pocahontas and while I can see that, at least Cri-Kee is more endearing. Besides, one complaint I hear about him is how he's just a shoehorned sidekick, but he was deliberately made to serve as Mushu's sidekick. I've also heared complains about him dissapearing in several scenes, but I don't see it.

Really?? OK, I never thought that Piglet and Rabbit were girls. But speaking of mixed gender, in my childhood I thought Ursula was a male, due to her being voiced by an artist with a very masculine voice in the Norwegian dub. So I was confused that she was called a seawitch.

Really? Dumbasses :P People come up with all ridiculous excuses for failures. I never thought that Tarzan was as forgotten as many people made it out to be, but of course it's not as prominent as it used to be.

Really? I didn't know that Mulan was the least popular of the Princesses, due to me believing that she was popular enough. However, I liked Pocahontas the movie more than Mulan and certainly the character of Pocahontas was one of my favorites. But now I have an equal spot for them both. Mulan is likable on her own terms, but isn't allowed to truly shine in her first movie, since she becomes (ironically) duller through the first movie as she progresses. At least her personality is more consistent in the latter movie. I know many people consider them both to be bland and boring, especially Pocahontas. But I think that Pocahontas has more of a personality that she's given credit for, despite how I understand why people label her as boring. As for her merchandise, since her movie came out in the nineties, it's not strange why she was even more promoted back then.

OK. Perhaps Bastion looked generic, but at least more gentle. It would've been interesting if they went with that design and I've heard theories than Kristoff was based on him (though Kristoff looks even more generic). I never thought that the Romani version of Flynn looked like Johnny Depp.

True. I was thinking about it the other day that I wonder if there's ever going to be an new version of Fantasia in this CGI age. At least they could've made the CGI more painterly. At least that's something that could be said about Fantasia 2000, since all the segments had different styles.
Do you like Walt's Fantasia?

Oh, I know about them! There were some trolls on the Disney sites (and especially those in the Pixar sites, especially when Brave came out), but the worst trolls were on the other sites (I won't mention which, but they were demented). One argument that I've heard from IMDb themselves was that the crew realized that "IMDb boards were no longer an imformative site with sharing and joy" and how "people moved on to other social medias than the IMDb boards". Now some of the threads has been transferred to Moviechat.org, but the trolls are still dominating.

Oh, I hope the third film will not center around the Princesses.

Yes, I agree that Cinderella probably knew the townspeople before.

I know Rajah was in the wedding scene? Is he really not in any other scene in Aladdin and the King of Thieves? I figured he'd at least show up during Jasmine and Genie's scenes in the palace.

I agree that CGI and hand-drawn animation should both co-exist even if Disney is the only major studio that utilizes hand-drawn animation. It's their trademark after all no matter how ashamed Disney is of it now.

I'll need to watch the beginning of Rapunzel Unbraided again because I don't remember the kingdom resembling the one in the final film.

China is a huge market for movies now which is why so many American films are using Chinese actors to open up that box office. So I'm not surprised Disney is making another film set in China, not to mention the live-action Mulan.

I do think that 9/11 meant that it was unlikely we'd get another Middle Eastern set film. I doubt Disney would make Sindbad now anyway since Dreamworks already made it.

I'm ok with Dragon Empire not being a musical if it doesn't serve the story. I also wonder like you if Disney will enter another Dark Age with Lasseter gone since we haven't had a very promising look at future projects so far. I wonder if WIR2 will end up a box office success but a critical dud much like Chicken Little. Audiences only seem to care for it right now because of the princesses.

Thanks for clarifying where Lapland is. That's all right that you aren't familiar with The Snow Queen.

I'm surprised that you've heard that Tangled is set in Spain? I've never heard that before lol. I wonder why people would think that because I can't see any reason.

Do you like The Rescuers better now as an adult?

Both Jean-Bob and Naveen have accents so that's probably a big reason why they are compared lol. On top of that Jean-Bob is constantly going on about being a real prince so thematically he also connects. I actually like Jean-Bob for his selfishness lol so I don't know what that says about me.

Yeah, I don't like Tiana's regular dresses either. I do like her green one at the end of the film at her restaurant, but that's probably more because I like her hairstyle at the end since while it's still tied up, it's looser and thus more fun. The yellow and brown dresses look awful on her but I liked the teal dress she wore at the very beginning in her first adult scene. It's only a few seconds so nobody remembers it. I also like her white 1920s gown.

I definitely believe that TPATF is the reason why Disney is so secretive of their films now since every film after has been shrouded in absolute secrecy. It's also possible that they used this method for Tangled because they felt that the name change might be controversial and since Tangled was such a hit, they felt they should adopt the same methodology for every other film after.

You don't have to apologize for your feelings on Lilo & Stitch. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and I don't think you were tarnishing the movie. I just wanted to point out a few lapses in your argument that I saw. I'm glad you like Lilo and Stitch together in the series though.

I like Cri-Kee a lot as well and I used to also compare him to Flit lol. I guess it's not surprising that I like both. I never considered Cri-Kee as being just shoehorned in and disappearing often. He's small so it makes sense that we can't always see him.

I used to think Rabbit was a very old woman but clearly not lol. That's funny that you thought Ursula was male since she was originally based off a drag queen and also meant to be voiced by one.

Tarzan doesn't get any merchandise anymore although that's because Disney lost the rights to it so they can't really do anything with the film anymore. I think that's a pity but I always loved Tarzan.

These days, I'd say Pocahontas is clearly the least popular princess and Mulan has won a new audience amongst millennials. However in the early days of the DP franchise, Mulan was probably the least popular princess. I used to love Mulan, both the character and the movie, but I no longer care as much for either anymore whereas my love for Pocahontas has grown. I've heard a lot of people say that Pocahontas was interesting up until she meets John Smith who sucks the life out of her and the entire film. I don't think he's really as boring as people make him out to be though. I think one of the issues as to why people couldn't relate as well to her was because her personality was more subtle and she was more introspective like the Walt heroines (Cinderella, Aurora) compared to the more vocal and headstrong Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine.

I really like Bastion's design. I definitely think Kristoff was based off of him because some concept art has Bastion as blonde and there's a remarkable similarity in their looks. I can see why people thought the Romani Flynn looked like Johnny Depp.

I do like Walt's Fantasia but I'm admittedly not the biggest fan. The pace is too slow and the early segments I don't love, namely the very first one and then the dinosaur one which I despise. That's usually the least popular segment which doesn't surprise me. Fantasia is certainly a classic and the pinnacle of artistry so I can appreciate it but I don't think I'll ever love it.

I didn't realize there was such a huge troll problem. I use Moviechat now that IMDB has closed their discussion threads and luckily the trolls haven't transferred over there yet.

Honestly, at this point I'm not even sure I want a third Wreck-It Ralph film.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:00 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I know Rajah was in the wedding scene? Is he really not in any other scene in Aladdin and the King of Thieves? I figured he'd at least show up during Jasmine and Genie's scenes in the palace.

One word: Nope.

Quote:
I agree that CGI and hand-drawn animation should both co-exist even if Disney is the only major studio that utilizes hand-drawn animation. It's their trademark after all no matter how ashamed Disney is of it now.

I've heard that argument before as well; That's a pity that Disney aren't the ones who's making hand drawn animation longer. I remember a friend of mine saying that it's like a Honda company making Honda cars anymore. But the argument makes sense, due to how Disney started the hand drawn trend. Regardless of animated movies being hand drawn or not, I miss those days where Disney weren't the only ones who actually made fairy tales or Disneyesque films. I know it's due to the animation industry (and tastes) having changed, but still. I know people have labeled Moana for being retro for sticking to the tried and true Disney formula, despite that it's a formula that has been adapted to various generations.

Quote:
China is a huge market for movies now which is why so many American films are using Chinese actors to open up that box office. So I'm not surprised Disney is making another film set in China, not to mention the live-action Mulan.

Speaking of which, what do you think about the changes of the live action Mulan?

Quote:
I do think that 9/11 meant that it was unlikely we'd get another Middle Eastern set film. I doubt Disney would make Sindbad now anyway since Dreamworks already made it.

OK. I wonder if there's ever going to be an animated feature set in the Middle East again, due to the political scrutiny there is worse than ever.

Quote:
I'm ok with Dragon Empire not being a musical if it doesn't serve the story. I also wonder like you if Disney will enter another Dark Age with Lasseter gone since we haven't had a very promising look at future projects so far. I wonder if WIR2 will end up a box office success but a critical dud much like Chicken Little. Audiences only seem to care for it right now because of the princesses.

True. I wonder how Ralph Breaks the Internet is going to be received critically. Or better said, if it's going to actually be good. Due to how hated Lasseter is on these boards and he's been labeled as the Midas of animation by the press and his fans, I wonder if RBTI is going to be affected by his lack of presence. But regardless of how critically received Wreck-It-Ralph was in 2012, it still made less money than it's successors, unfortunately.

Quote:
I'm surprised that you've heard that Tangled is set in Spain? I've never heard that before lol. I wonder why people would think that because I can't see any reason.

Oh, I've remember reading it somewhere on a site, though I personally think it's just a rumor/fan theory.

Quote:
Do you like The Rescuers better now as an adult?

I haven't seen it in my adult years, but I remember seeing some parts of it during my teenage years and not finding it as bad. Yet I know several Disney historians have a soft spot for The Rescuers and calling it the only good picture in the dark era, as Walt would've made it. Which is fair enough, since Disney historians has labeled the time after Walt as being too harmless and catered mostly for children.

Speaking of which, do you like The Fox and the Hound?

Quote:
Both Jean-Bob and Naveen have accents so that's probably a big reason why they are compared lol. On top of that Jean-Bob is constantly going on about being a real prince so thematically he also connects. I actually like Jean-Bob for his selfishness lol so I don't know what that says about me.

It says a lot about you :P Kidding ;) I thought Naveen resembled Jean-Bob in the teaser, the one that wasn't a clip from the movie. As for Jean-Bob, I liked Puffin and Speed more. They were better characters than him.

Quote:
Yeah, I don't like Tiana's regular dresses either. I do like her green one at the end of the film at her restaurant, but that's probably more because I like her hairstyle at the end since while it's still tied up, it's looser and thus more fun. The yellow and brown dresses look awful on her but I liked the teal dress she wore at the very beginning in her first adult scene. It's only a few seconds so nobody remembers it. I also like her white 1920s gown.

Disney are actually good at giving their heroines regular dresses, so it's remarkable that Tiana is given none.

Quote:
I definitely believe that TPATF is the reason why Disney is so secretive of their films now since every film after has been shrouded in absolute secrecy. It's also possible that they used this method for Tangled because they felt that the name change might be controversial and since Tangled was such a hit, they felt they should adopt the same methodology for every other film after.

Fair enough. I know there are people who actually like the title Tangled, but I remember the controversy against it. What's even more messed up is that they made the dolls before the title was settled. But it took them four years before finally admitting the truth about the title :P. I know purists wants the name changed, but I wonder if the title is ever going to be changed.

As for how Frozen was influenced about it, I thought it's title made more sense, due to it actually being a metaphor for the theme of the movie. Despite how Frozen was influenced by Tangled, at least Frozen managed to be a darker drama than Tangled.

Quote:
You don't have to apologize for your feelings on Lilo & Stitch. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and I don't think you were tarnishing the movie. I just wanted to point out a few lapses in your argument that I saw. I'm glad you like Lilo and Stitch together in the series though.

Thanks. I liked the series, because it was genuniely funny at times. And it was a feel good show, overall. Despite that Nani wasn't particularly enhanced as a character.

Quote:
Tarzan doesn't get any merchandise anymore although that's because Disney lost the rights to it so they can't really do anything with the film anymore. I think that's a pity but I always loved Tarzan.

They did? It's a pity. I know Tarzan was featured in some marketing afterwards, but nowadays you rarely see him. Otherwise, I do like Tarzan, despite that I find the film flawed as well.

Quote:
These days, I'd say Pocahontas is clearly the least popular princess and Mulan has won a new audience amongst millennials. However in the early days of the DP franchise, Mulan was probably the least popular princess. I used to love Mulan, both the character and the movie, but I no longer care as much for either anymore whereas my love for Pocahontas has grown. I've heard a lot of people say that Pocahontas was interesting up until she meets John Smith who sucks the life out of her and the entire film. I don't think he's really as boring as people make him out to be though. I think one of the issues as to why people couldn't relate as well to her was because her personality was more subtle and she was more introspective like the Walt heroines (Cinderella, Aurora) compared to the more vocal and headstrong Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine.

Yeah, I've heard that unrealatable theory with Pocahontas as well. And I've never heard those arguments that she was boring before meeting Smith. I remember that I used to like Smith as a child and didn't find him boring, but now I do :P As for Mulan, I like the character, but the movie is just meh. Though I respect it rather than like it and realize that it's solid on it's own terms, it's not great either.

Quote:
I really like Bastion's design. I definitely think Kristoff was based off of him because some concept art has Bastion as blonde and there's a remarkable similarity in their looks. I can see why people thought the Romani Flynn looked like Johnny Depp.

At least Bastion seemed more endearing and heartwarming than Flynn ever was. I remember the marketing bragging about Flynn's entertaining appeal, but frankly I don't find him as entertaining as people wants him to be.

Quote:
I do like Walt's Fantasia but I'm admittedly not the biggest fan. The pace is too slow and the early segments I don't love, namely the very first one and then the dinosaur one which I despise. That's usually the least popular segment which doesn't surprise me. Fantasia is certainly a classic and the pinnacle of artistry so I can appreciate it but I don't think I'll ever love it.

When I saw Fantasia for the first time as a toddler, I remember not liking it at all and finding the film too scary and off-putting. When I became an older, more devoted Disney-fan (at the age of ten), I began to like it more. However, I remember re-watching the film again as an adult and being like many people; Finding it overall boring. There are segments that I love (and not to mention that it breaks the Disney-policy of having naked boobs, but hey, don't call me a perv :P), but the film is overall boring.

Quote:
I didn't realize there was such a huge troll problem. I use Moviechat now that IMDB has closed their discussion threads and luckily the trolls haven't transferred over there yet.

Oh, they still are there around. They're just not as dominant, but they are around.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:02 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
One word: Nope.

I've heard that argument before as well; That's a pity that Disney aren't the ones who's making hand drawn animation longer. I remember a friend of mine saying that it's like a Honda company making Honda cars anymore. But the argument makes sense, due to how Disney started the hand drawn trend. Regardless of animated movies being hand drawn or not, I miss those days where Disney weren't the only ones who actually made fairy tales or Disneyesque films. I know it's due to the animation industry (and tastes) having changed, but still. I know people have labeled Moana for being retro for sticking to the tried and true Disney formula, despite that it's a formula that has been adapted to various generations.

Speaking of which, what do you think about the changes of the live action Mulan?

OK. I wonder if there's ever going to be an animated feature set in the Middle East again, due to the political scrutiny there is worse than ever.

True. I wonder how Ralph Breaks the Internet is going to be received critically. Or better said, if it's going to actually be good. Due to how hated Lasseter is on these boards and he's been labeled as the Midas of animation by the press and his fans, I wonder if RBTI is going to be affected by his lack of presence. But regardless of how critically received Wreck-It-Ralph was in 2012, it still made less money than it's successors, unfortunately.

I haven't seen it in my adult years, but I remember seeing some parts of it during my teenage years and not finding it as bad. Yet I know several Disney historians have a soft spot for The Rescuers and calling it the only good picture in the dark era, as Walt would've made it. Which is fair enough, since Disney historians has labeled the time after Walt as being too harmless and catered mostly for children.

Speaking of which, do you like The Fox and the Hound?

It says a lot about you :P Kidding ;) I thought Naveen resembled Jean-Bob in the teaser, the one that wasn't a clip from the movie. As for Jean-Bob, I liked Puffin and Speed more. They were better characters than him.

Disney are actually good at giving their heroines regular dresses, so it's remarkable that Tiana is given none.

Fair enough. I know there are people who actually like the title Tangled, but I remember the controversy against it. What's even more messed up is that they made the dolls before the title was settled. But it took them four years before finally admitting the truth about the title :P. I know purists wants the name changed, but I wonder if the title is ever going to be changed.

As for how Frozen was influenced about it, I thought it's title made more sense, due to it actually being a metaphor for the theme of the movie. Despite how Frozen was influenced by Tangled, at least Frozen managed to be a darker drama than Tangled.

Thanks. I liked the series, because it was genuniely funny at times. And it was a feel good show, overall. Despite that Nani wasn't particularly enhanced as a character.

They did? It's a pity. I know Tarzan was featured in some marketing afterwards, but nowadays you rarely see him. Otherwise, I do like Tarzan, despite that I find the film flawed as well.

Yeah, I've heard that unrealatable theory with Pocahontas as well. And I've never heard those arguments that she was boring before meeting Smith. I remember that I used to like Smith as a child and didn't find him boring, but now I do :P As for Mulan, I like the character, but the movie is just meh. Though I respect it rather than like it and realize that it's solid on it's own terms, it's not great either.

At least Bastion seemed more endearing and heartwarming than Flynn ever was. I remember the marketing bragging about Flynn's entertaining appeal, but frankly I don't find him as entertaining as people wants him to be.

Oh, they still are there around. They're just not as dominant, but they are around.

That's a pity that Rajah was basically absent from the film.

I haven't heard people calling Moana retro, but I do remember people saying that it was the film that perfected the Disney formula (something I don't agree with at all but that's besides the point).

I don't really mind the changes for the live-action Mulan. In part, because the animated version isn't something I hold sacred, but also because I love the actress Gong Li so I'm glad to see her playing the villain. Mushu was never a good fit for the movie anyway imo and I found Shang boring (although his replacement seems to be even more generic). I'm sure the little sister character will end up being unremarkable as well, just shoe-horned in because of Frozen. I don't consider Mulan a musical either so the lack of songs doesn't bother me either.

There are independent animated films set in the Middle East, but I can't see Disney going that route. At least we have Aladdin.

Apparently Twitter reviews are raving about WIR2 but I don't go by Twitter when it comes to film reviews since they are just general audiences who'll likely gush about anything if it's free. Let's wait for the real critics to chime in. I imagine that Lasseter had a lot of influence in this film, even if the final product departed from what he wanted with Menken's song. That's why I wouldn't call this the first new Disney film without Lasseter's influence. That'll likely be Dragon Empire or maybe Frozen 2.

I haven't seen The Fox and the Hound in ages. The songs aren't memorable at all imo and I remember hating the subplot with the woodpecker. The film was too sad for my taste although I'm sure I'd appreciate it more now, but unfortunately it's not on Netflix and I don't have much of an interest to buy it. The characters come off as generic imo, or at least the side characters. Vixey takes the cake when it comes to generic female created just to give the male character a love interest. I thought Maid Marian was insufferable but she's as empowered as Belle when it comes to Vixey's portrayal.

I liked Puffin and Speed a lot too. All three sidekicks in The Swan Princess had good chemistry. I also liked the animal who came in the third film. I don't remember his name, but he works with Zelda and he's a bird that can mimic anyone's voice.

Tiana was probably limited by the time period. The other princesses can wear fantasyesque peasant/regular dresses, but Tiana doesn't get that luxury.

If I cared for Tangled, I'd want the title to be changed over the years, but since I can't stand it, I have no interest for people to connect it even more to the original Rapunzel story. Frozen's title makes much more sense especially since it literally has almost nothing in common with The Snow Queen. Frozen was darker than Tangled but it was still neutered imo. I guess they felt that Hans made up for that but I would have liked to have seen more of the dysfunctional relationship between Elsa and Anna rather than it being swept aside so that they love each other no matter what.

I suppose Nani took a backseat in the TV series since the emphasis was on the experiments.

Disney can't use Tarzan anymore, only the characters that they created themselves for the film. So Terk and Tantor still rarely show up but I don't think either of them are hugely popular enough to see walls of plush toys for.

Ironically enough, back when I used to love the Mulan film, it was highly underrated and not really favored by audiences and Disney. Now, when I've no longer a fan, the young generations have raised it up to be the best Disney film ever. Then again, they claim the same about Tangled, so that shows their taste lol.

I really liked the characterization that Bastion was meant to have and he felt really fleshed out while Flynn feels like a caricature. I'm sure that if he wasn't designed the way he was, most people wouldn't really care for him. Kristoff, for example, doesn't seem to have nearly half the fanbase that Flynn has despite coming from the more popular movie.

At least this site is exempt from trolls. Although sometimes when I look at old threads, I find some particularly interesting posts.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:56 pm 
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Sorry for another delayed answer once again, I've been busy with several things lately.

Quote:
I haven't heard people calling Moana retro, but I do remember people saying that it was the film that perfected the Disney formula (something I don't agree with at all but that's besides the point).

Really? Where did you hear that?

Quote:
I don't really mind the changes for the live-action Mulan. In part, because the animated version isn't something I hold sacred, but also because I love the actress Gong Li so I'm glad to see her playing the villain. Mushu was never a good fit for the movie anyway imo and I found Shang boring (although his replacement seems to be even more generic). I'm sure the little sister character will end up being unremarkable as well, just shoe-horned in because of Frozen. I don't consider Mulan a musical either so the lack of songs doesn't bother me either.

To be honest, I don't mind the lack of songs, since I was never crazy about the songs for Mulan. However, I dislike some changes of characters and the fact that the villian is going to be a witch. It just seems ridiculous.

Quote:
There are independent animated films set in the Middle East, but I can't see Disney going that route. At least we have Aladdin.

True, despite how it's been tarnished by the naysayers :P I can't wait for the hoopla when the live action remake comes :P

Quote:
Apparently Twitter reviews are raving about WIR2 but I don't go by Twitter when it comes to film reviews since they are just general audiences who'll likely gush about anything if it's free. Let's wait for the real critics to chime in.

Well said. I remember some people saying that Ralph Breaks the Internet lacks the depth of it's predecessor, which isn't exactly weird :P

Quote:
I imagine that Lasseter had a lot of influence in this film, even if the final product departed from what he wanted with Menken's song. That's why I wouldn't call this the first new Disney film without Lasseter's influence. That'll likely be Dragon Empire or maybe Frozen 2.

I think Frozen 2 must had some of his influence, so I guess Dragon Empire will be the one who will be abscent of his influence. Though I doubt it. Do you believe in those rumors about Lasseter dismissing Menken? And what are your thoughts about Lasseter?

Quote:
I haven't seen The Fox and the Hound in ages. The songs aren't memorable at all imo and I remember hating the subplot with the woodpecker. The film was too sad for my taste although I'm sure I'd appreciate it more now, but unfortunately it's not on Netflix and I don't have much of an interest to buy it. The characters come off as generic imo, or at least the side characters. Vixey takes the cake when it comes to generic female created just to give the male character a love interest. I thought Maid Marian was insufferable but she's as empowered as Belle when it comes to Vixey's portrayal.

To be honest, I liked The Fox and the Hound when I was a kid, though it was never one of my true favorites. I liked it enough to pleade to get it on VHS, but I rarely watched it again after getting it :P. In fact, my appreciation for the movie has grown wider now as an adult and it's one of my favorites. I do find it to be a heartwarming and haunting film with a memorable score, engaging characters and a solid premise. However, my adult and teenage years has made me realize it's faults. Tod and Copper's friendship is quite underdeveloped and not enhanced enough to actually make you invest in their friendship. The screenplay is not particularly tidy and could've been better developed (why on Earth doesn't Tod defend himself when Chief gets hit by a train and what about him not question why he's being left in the wood afterwards).
Which the same could be said abouts Chief and Copper's dynamic (yes, we have the notion that Chief has taken him in as a pup, but Chief's resentment towards Copper is at full bloom afterwards, which really doesn't reasonate with Copper's revenge afterwards). Besides, Dinky and Boomer gets a catterpillar chase too many and none of those chases actually serves the story. However, my love for the film has grown nonetheless and I find it to rank up among Disney's finest. I know it has a big fanbase, but Disney historians have a tendency to dismiss it's importance :P

Quote:
I liked Puffin and Speed a lot too. All three sidekicks in The Swan Princess had good chemistry. I also liked the animal who came in the third film. I don't remember his name, but he works with Zelda and he's a bird that can mimic anyone's voice.

OK. I remember seeing the sequels to The Swan Princess and finding them meh. But I agree that the sidekicks in the original Swan Princess had good chemistry. They complimented each other, despite how they were radically different. Btw, I find it funny that The Swan Princess was directed by the same director of The Fox and the Hound, Richard Rich. Two really overlooked films.

Quote:
If I cared for Tangled, I'd want the title to be changed over the years, but since I can't stand it, I have no interest for people to connect it even more to the original Rapunzel story. Frozen's title makes much more sense especially since it literally has almost nothing in common with The Snow Queen.

True. For all the flack Disney gets for their Disneyfication, it's notable when their work actually qualifies as being a complete departure from their original source material and not. I know that Anna was supposedly based on Gerda and that there were talks about adapting it straight from the original tale in the nineties. But Frozen does neither. Since Frozen was catered to be shaped from Tangled, I wonder how Frozen would've been if it was released in the nineties :P. It wouldn't made Kai and Gerda children anyways :P

Quote:
Frozen was darker than Tangled but it was still neutered imo. I guess they felt that Hans made up for that but I would have liked to have seen more of the dysfunctional relationship between Elsa and Anna rather than it being swept aside so that they love each other no matter what.

Frozen was definitively darker than Tangled, despite that I felt that Tangled had it's dark moments as well. Yet I wouldn't call Frozen Disney's darkest film ever. It certainly been the darkest of the Revival films, yet I remember that there were some complaints about the tone problems (which I agree with).

Quote:
Disney can't use Tarzan anymore, only the characters that they created themselves for the film. So Terk and Tantor still rarely show up but I don't think either of them are hugely popular enough to see walls of plush toys for.

I doubt that Terk and Tantor were rather popular. I think people disliked them and so did several reviewers. As for myself, I hated Tantor as an adult, but he was kinda amusing as a kid. Some people have called them a retread of Timon and Pumbaa and I can see it, just that Timon and Pumbaa are superior.

Quote:
Ironically enough, back when I used to love the Mulan film, it was highly underrated and not really favored by audiences and Disney. Now, when I've no longer a fan, the young generations have raised it up to be the best Disney film ever. Then again, they claim the same about Tangled, so that shows their taste lol.

I've never considered Mulan to be underrated. Perhaps it didn't got the recognition of the most acclaimed Disney films, but I certainly wasn't underrated. The same goes for Tangled and many people found that movie to be overrated.

Quote:
I really liked the characterization that Bastion was meant to have and he felt really fleshed out while Flynn feels like a caricature. I'm sure that if he wasn't designed the way he was, most people wouldn't really care for him. Kristoff, for example, doesn't seem to have nearly half the fanbase that Flynn has despite coming from the more popular movie.

Ironic, isn't it? But Kristoff was a fairly bland character, in my opinion. Even more bland than Hans. Wonder how the buzz would've been if Rapunzel was paired up with Bastion. There weren't so much buzz about Anna teaming up with a non-hunk as Kristoff.

Quote:
At least this site is exempt from trolls. Although sometimes when I look at old threads, I find some particularly interesting posts.

In fact, yes. Though there has been a couple of naysayers around here as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:19 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Sorry for another delayed answer once again, I've been busy with several things lately.

Really? Where did you hear that?

To be honest, I don't mind the lack of songs, since I was never crazy about the songs for Mulan. However, I dislike some changes of characters and the fact that the villian is going to be a witch. It just seems ridiculous.

I think Frozen 2 must had some of his influence, so I guess Dragon Empire will be the one who will be abscent of his influence. Though I doubt it. Do you believe in those rumors about Lasseter dismissing Menken? And what are your thoughts about Lasseter?

To be honest, I liked The Fox and the Hound when I was a kid, though it was never one of my true favorites. I liked it enough to pleade to get it on VHS, but I rarely watched it again after getting it :P. In fact, my appreciation for the movie has grown wider now as an adult and it's one of my favorites. I do find it to be a heartwarming and haunting film with a memorable score, engaging characters and a solid premise. However, my adult and teenage years has made me realize it's faults. Tod and Copper's friendship is quite underdeveloped and not enhanced enough to actually make you invest in their friendship. The screenplay is not particularly tidy and could've been better developed (why on Earth doesn't Tod defend himself when Chief gets hit by a train and what about him not question why he's being left in the wood afterwards).
Which the same could be said abouts Chief and Copper's dynamic (yes, we have the notion that Chief has taken him in as a pup, but Chief's resentment towards Copper is at full bloom afterwards, which really doesn't reasonate with Copper's revenge afterwards). Besides, Dinky and Boomer gets a catterpillar chase too many and none of those chases actually serves the story. However, my love for the film has grown nonetheless and I find it to rank up among Disney's finest. I know it has a big fanbase, but Disney historians have a tendency to dismiss it's importance :P

OK. I remember seeing the sequels to The Swan Princess and finding them meh. But I agree that the sidekicks in the original Swan Princess had good chemistry. They complimented each other, despite how they were radically different. Btw, I find it funny that The Swan Princess was directed by the same director of The Fox and the Hound, Richard Rich. Two really overlooked films.

True. For all the flack Disney gets for their Disneyfication, it's notable when their work actually qualifies as being a complete departure from their original source material and not. I know that Anna was supposedly based on Gerda and that there were talks about adapting it straight from the original tale in the nineties. But Frozen does neither. Since Frozen was catered to be shaped from Tangled, I wonder how Frozen would've been if it was released in the nineties :P. It wouldn't made Kai and Gerda children anyways :P

Frozen was definitively darker than Tangled, despite that I felt that Tangled had it's dark moments as well. Yet I wouldn't call Frozen Disney's darkest film ever. It certainly been the darkest of the Revival films, yet I remember that there were some complaints about the tone problems (which I agree with).

I doubt that Terk and Tantor were rather popular. I think people disliked them and so did several reviewers. As for myself, I hated Tantor as an adult, but he was kinda amusing as a kid. Some people have called them a retread of Timon and Pumbaa and I can see it, just that Timon and Pumbaa are superior.

I've never considered Mulan to be underrated. Perhaps it didn't got the recognition of the most acclaimed Disney films, but I certainly wasn't underrated. The same goes for Tangled and many people found that movie to be overrated.

Ironic, isn't it? But Kristoff was a fairly bland character, in my opinion. Even more bland than Hans. Wonder how the buzz would've been if Rapunzel was paired up with Bastion. There weren't so much buzz about Anna teaming up with a non-hunk as Kristoff.

In fact, yes. Though there has been a couple of naysayers around here as well.

That's all right. I don't mind.

When Moana came out, I remember reading so many articles that Moana had perfected the Disney formula and that 80 so years had been building up to this: Disney's perfect movie. It was a little annoying actually because even The Lion King and Frozen were never called perfect.

The witch does seem out of place in Mulan but I like the actress portraying her so it doesn't bother me too much.

All the evidence seems to point towards Lasseter basically sacking Menken and it's especially suspicious that Menken has returned just after Lasseter left. Dragon Empire, also being the first non-sequel released in several years will probably be the determinating factor as to whether or not the Disney Revival is over or not without Lasseter.

It always surprises me how little time Tod and Copper spend together in The Fox and the Hound as children, especially since the marketing of the film only focuses on those early scenes. People really do seem to love the film though, like you said, especially the ones who grow up on it. It usually ranks as one of their favorite so I'm surprised Disney ignores it so much. Maybe because they don't find it marketable although they did release plushes for Tod and Copper a while ago in the Disney Store. I've read that some fans came together and wanted to release a Making-of documentary for the film with Disney's permission, but Disney said they weren't interested.

I liked the third film in The Swan Princess series because I enjoyed Zelda and her "romance" with Rogers. Odette's death at the end seemed unnecessary though, not to mention her swan transformation but I suppose they felt that every film needed to have her transformed into a swan. Yeah it is interesting that Richard Rich did both The Swan Princess and The Fox and the Hound since both films are so different from each other.

I'm sure that Kai and Gerda would have been teens if Disney had made The Snow Queen in the 90s. They definitely would have been lovers as well then.

Yeah, Frozen isn't even close to any of Disney's darkest films. I think Zootopia has some dark moments that could make it a close second-runner as the Revival's darkest film, after Frozen.

I know Terk is hated but people generally aren't fond of Tantor either. I like both a lot actually which is kinda sad. I think the comparisons to Timon and Pumbaa are only because both are duos in jungle films, but otherwise, I don't see any similarities between the two duos.

Count me in as one of the people who thinks Tangled is hugely overrated.

The fandom does seem to like Hans a lot but Tumblr fangirls always go for the brooding male with a tragic past (ahem..Kylo Ren). Yeah, I'm curious as to how Bastion would have been received. I think Kristoff got less attention because they couldn't really sell him as the love interest without exposing Hans' true intentions.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:55 pm 
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That's all right. I don't mind.

Thanks :D :P

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When Moana came out, I remember reading so many articles that Moana had perfected the Disney formula and that 80 so years had been building up to this: Disney's perfect movie. It was a little annoying actually because even The Lion King and Frozen were never called perfect.

Lol. I've never heard of it. Perhaps Frozen wasn't called perfect, but I remember it was labeled as the best film since The Lion King. Even The Lion King wasn't labeled as perfection when it arrived, despite it getting good reviews. You know that honor goes to Beauty and the Beast (which I thought was perceived as being Disney's best picture anyways, so I found it strange that The Lion King received that honor).

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All the evidence seems to point towards Lasseter basically sacking Menken and it's especially suspicious that Menken has returned just after Lasseter left. Dragon Empire, also being the first non-sequel released in several years will probably be the determinating factor as to whether or not the Disney Revival is over or not without Lasseter.

Yeah, I thought the theories were just theories from fans that were bitter by Menken's departure, but now several evidence seems to point out how Lasseter has dismissed him. And that he was brought to Tangled just because he writes fast, which was also proven. It makes sense why Menken was involved in Enchanted, due to Lasseter not having any control over it.
Truth to be told, we're just getting two sequels from the Revival era from now on. None of the other films have been greenlit a sequel. But I wonder when the Revival era will officially end.
What are your thoughts on Lasseter in general?

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It always surprises me how little time Tod and Copper spend together in The Fox and the Hound as children, especially since the marketing of the film only focuses on those early scenes.

True, but that issue is also repeated in Simba's Pride. The marketing showed Kiara and Kovu mostly as cubs, when they have more screentime as adults. Which I found it odd. At least Simba is equally marketed as both and Tarzan is more marketed as an adult, since he spends more time as an adult, anyways.

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People really do seem to love the film though, like you said, especially the ones who grow up on it. It usually ranks as one of their favorite so I'm surprised Disney ignores it so much. Maybe because they don't find it marketable although they did release plushes for Tod and Copper a while ago in the Disney Store.

True, but as I've mentioned before, the fanbase of The Fox and the Hound seems to be more of an adult one. Disney has a tendency to not give certain underrated movies as much attention, despite it's fanbase (*cough, Hunchback, cough*).

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I've read that some fans came together and wanted to release a Making-of documentary for the film with Disney's permission, but Disney said they weren't interested.

I know. I've read about it on the Moviechat.org boards. And it was due to how the film was made under bad circumstances and the crew had little positive to say about it. But at least it was an admirable move.

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I liked the third film in The Swan Princess series because I enjoyed Zelda and her "romance" with Rogers. Odette's death at the end seemed unnecessary though, not to mention her swan transformation but I suppose they felt that every film needed to have her transformed into a swan.

I remember Odette's death in the third film and Rogers' fling. Rogers is an enjoyable character and frankly, I think The Swan Princess excells with it's characters. Uberta is also a good character, though I thought Bromley was just meh.

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Yeah it is interesting that Richard Rich did both The Swan Princess and The Fox and the Hound since both films are so different from each other.

True and both are highly underrated. The Swan Princess even more so than The Fox and the Hound.

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I'm sure that Kai and Gerda would have been teens if Disney had made The Snow Queen in the 90s. They definitely would have been lovers as well then.

Haha, well said! I bet Disney would've made them a romantic couple by then. I doubt they've would've made both Anna and Elsa princesses, since they were catered for the Princess lineup, anyways.

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I know Terk is hated but people generally aren't fond of Tantor either. I like both a lot actually which is kinda sad. I think the comparisons to Timon and Pumbaa are only because both are duos in jungle films, but otherwise, I don't see any similarities between the two duos.

Fair enough. I think the comparison is shallow, due to them resembling them in size and dynamic. But truth to be told, Terk is even more comparable to Timon than Tantor is to Pumbaa (despite how both Tantor and Pumbaa has the same color schemes). At least Terk and Timon serves as the leader of the duo and is the wisecracking one (though Timon is more praised), whereas Tantor is more whimpier and neurotic than Pumbaa (though however, Pumbaa has his moments of nerves as well).
Speaking of which, I've always found it unfair that Timon has a tendency to take credit for Pumbaa's brilliant ideas. And how Timon is bossing him around. This is certainly evident in the series.

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The fandom does seem to like Hans a lot but Tumblr fangirls always go for the brooding male with a tragic past (ahem..Kylo Ren). Yeah, I'm curious as to how Bastion would have been received. I think Kristoff got less attention because they couldn't really sell him as the love interest without exposing Hans' true intentions.

I know about those fanboys. I know that's one of the reasons why Elsa is so worshipped. But I wonder if the live action version of the Beast has gotten more praise due to his tragic past.


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:frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :yinyang: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :ears:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:16 am 
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Lol. I've never heard of it. Perhaps Frozen wasn't called perfect, but I remember it was labeled as the best film since The Lion King. Even The Lion King wasn't labeled as perfection when it arrived, despite it getting good reviews. You know that honor goes to Beauty and the Beast (which I thought was perceived as being Disney's best picture anyways, so I found it strange that The Lion King received that honor).

Yeah, I thought the theories were just theories from fans that were bitter by Menken's departure, but now several evidence seems to point out how Lasseter has dismissed him. And that he was brought to Tangled just because he writes fast, which was also proven. It makes sense why Menken was involved in Enchanted, due to Lasseter not having any control over it.
Truth to be told, we're just getting two sequels from the Revival era from now on. None of the other films have been greenlit a sequel. But I wonder when the Revival era will officially end.
What are your thoughts on Lasseter in general?

True, but that issue is also repeated in Simba's Pride. The marketing showed Kiara and Kovu mostly as cubs, when they have more screentime as adults. Which I found it odd. At least Simba is equally marketed as both and Tarzan is more marketed as an adult, since he spends more time as an adult, anyways.

True, but as I've mentioned before, the fanbase of The Fox and the Hound seems to be more of an adult one. Disney has a tendency to not give certain underrated movies as much attention, despite it's fanbase (*cough, Hunchback, cough*).

I know. I've read about it on the Moviechat.org boards. And it was due to how the film was made under bad circumstances and the crew had little positive to say about it. But at least it was an admirable move.

I remember Odette's death in the third film and Rogers' fling. Rogers is an enjoyable character and frankly, I think The Swan Princess excells with it's characters. Uberta is also a good character, though I thought Bromley was just meh.

True and both are highly underrated. The Swan Princess even more so than The Fox and the Hound.

Haha, well said! I bet Disney would've made them a romantic couple by then. I doubt they've would've made both Anna and Elsa princesses, since they were catered for the Princess lineup, anyways.

Fair enough. I think the comparison is shallow, due to them resembling them in size and dynamic. But truth to be told, Terk is even more comparable to Timon than Tantor is to Pumbaa (despite how both Tantor and Pumbaa has the same color schemes). At least Terk and Timon serves as the leader of the duo and is the wisecracking one (though Timon is more praised), whereas Tantor is more whimpier and neurotic than Pumbaa (though however, Pumbaa has his moments of nerves as well).
Speaking of which, I've always found it unfair that Timon has a tendency to take credit for Pumbaa's brilliant ideas. And how Timon is bossing him around. This is certainly evident in the series.

I know about those fanboys. I know that's one of the reasons why Elsa is so worshipped. But I wonder if the live action version of the Beast has gotten more praise due to his tragic past.

BATB is considered Disney's most prestigious film, since it was the one that won all the awards, or nearly did. The Lion King is their biggest commercial success, up until Frozen.

Zootopia has been confirmed to be getting a sequel as well. Big Hero 6 and Moana didn't make enough at the box office which is why the former has only gotten a TV series. Neither of them were huge merchandise sellers either. I never had a very high opinion of Lasseter but I most certainly can't think of a single good thing about him now that all the dirt on him has come out. I'm glad he's gone. Good riddance.

Yeah, I was thinking of parallels between Simba's Pride and The Fox and the Hound as well. You mentioned Simba and Tarzan, but Bambi is another one who only gets portrayed as a child. He does spend a little less than half the movie as an adult. What's weirder though is that Thumper is always portrayed as a child but we see him paired off with Miss Bunny in merchandise but she was only introduced as an adult. That would be like merchandising child Simba with adult Nala, or I guess child Tod with Vixey.

Disney still occasionally does small things for Hunchback, like the stage show, the cast recording, and they even planned a limited TV series for Esmeralda at one point before that was cancelled. The Fox and the Hound gets next to nothing, which is saying something.

I suppose Disney didn't want to look bad which they likely would have if there was a Fox and the Hound documentary, especially since there's so much bad blood with that film since they lost so many people. If they wouldn't release The Sweatbox or anything connected to Kingdom of the Sun, they definitely wouldn't work on this documentary.

I love Uberta as well. Like you, Bromley is the weak link of the films. I can't stand the character. I don't remember him having much of a role in the two sequels though.

I think The Swan Princess suffers more than The Fox and the Hound because it isn't Disney so it doesn't get that mass appeal and promotion that most Disney films do. Even the lesser Disney films tend to be better remembered than non-Disney studio animated films, especially the older 2D ones.

I'm assuming Gerda and Kai would just be villagers, since Disney wasn't obsessed back then with making every heroine a princess. The Snow Queen character would have been the queen of the snowbees. The film would still have a princess (and prince) though if they kept the part where Gerda visits the palace.

Yeah, I can see what you mean that Timon and Terk have more in common than Pumbaa and Tantor despite the color scheme. I always felt that Timon's overall bossiness and tendency to co-opt anything Pumbaa says to be one of the highlights of the duo's chemistry. That's just me though. I don't remember their portrayals in the series, but I do remember Timon doing that in the original film.

Good point about the live-action Beast and how Tumblr feels about him, because I was wondering the same thing. I remember people overall liking the backstory he was given but I don't remember him becoming an overall huge object of the Tumblr fandom's affections.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:58 pm 
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thedisneyspirit wrote:
:frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :yinyang: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :ears:

And what do you mean by that?

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BATB is considered Disney's most prestigious film, since it was the one that won all the awards, or nearly did. The Lion King is their biggest commercial success, up until Frozen.

Beauty and the Beast is indeed Disney's most beloved and acclaimed film. There's no question about that. Regardless of what people think, every Disnerd knows BATB's regarded position in Disney history. It's so regarded so much that it's been labeled as perfect (despite it's plot holes that people has ranted about for several years :P). What are your thoughts about BATB, btw?

I wonder if there's going to be another film that will beat Frozen twenty years from now. But at least Frozen is a full cicrcle for Disney, since it's a Princess movie (yes, please indulge me for using that term, but if we're going to be technical, it's what they are) that has become a Box Office Champion. Remember that a not only Disney's trademarks, but hits as well, as proven wiyh Snow White, Cinderella, BATB and Tangled.

Since the Revival era has mirrored the Renaissance, it's remarkable that Frozen wasn't an animal movie like The Lion King, since that would've made the synergy even more overt. But no matter what you can say about The Lion King, at least it's a way better movie than Frozen.

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Zootopia has been confirmed to be getting a sequel as well. Big Hero 6 and Moana didn't make enough at the box office which is why the former has only gotten a TV series. Neither of them were huge merchandise sellers either.

I'm surprised that Big Hero 6 never got a sequel, due to it's premise screaming franchise. But at least it got a TV series. Not that surprised over Moana isn't getting any sequel, yet it wasn't a flop either.

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I never had a very high opinion of Lasseter but I most certainly can't think of a single good thing about him now that all the dirt on him has come out. I'm glad he's gone. Good riddance.

Me too. Most of what was said about Lasseter was pure praise, but afterwards it was implied that he wasn't a Messiah. So I'm glad he was exposed, despite that I believe that he'll still have his defenders. Good riddance.

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Yeah, I was thinking of parallels between Simba's Pride and The Fox and the Hound as well. You mentioned Simba and Tarzan, but Bambi is another one who only gets portrayed as a child. He does spend a little less than half the movie as an adult. What's weirder though is that Thumper is always portrayed as a child but we see him paired off with Miss Bunny in merchandise but she was only introduced as an adult. That would be like merchandising child Simba with adult Nala, or I guess child Tod with Vixey.

True. Bambi gets more promotion as a fawn than as an adult, which is a departure from Simba, who gets equal exposure. Same with Nala. But since we now have Simba's Pride and The Lion Guard, Simba spends more time as an adult, anyways :P But I think it's fair, since Simba is more likable and tolerable as an adult, anyways.

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Disney still occasionally does small things for Hunchback, like the stage show, the cast recording, and they even planned a limited TV series for Esmeralda at one point before that was cancelled. The Fox and the Hound gets next to nothing, which is saying something.

Alright, fair enough. But Hunchback is still regarded as belonging to the underrated-shelf and not being as promoted. Wonder if Disney would dare to give it a live action adaptation. At least The Fox and the Hound got a non-canon cheapquel (that I've never seen).

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I suppose Disney didn't want to look bad which they likely would have if there was a Fox and the Hound documentary, especially since there's so much bad blood with that film since they lost so many people. If they wouldn't release The Sweatbox or anything connected to Kingdom of the Sun, they definitely wouldn't work on this documentary.

Most likely. But it's still a pity that they won't give it a proper documentary. Have you seen The Sweatbox, btw?

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I love Uberta as well. Like you, Bromley is the weak link of the films. I can't stand the character. I don't remember him having much of a role in the two sequels though.

Agreed. I don't loathe him, but he's just meh. But at least he serves as a friend to our male lead (which is unusual for an animated feature, Disney or not, despite that he's not a realistic one). But at least he gets to progress the plot in the first movie.

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I think The Swan Princess suffers more than The Fox and the Hound because it isn't Disney so it doesn't get that mass appeal and promotion that most Disney films do. Even the lesser Disney films tend to be better remembered than non-Disney studio animated films, especially the older 2D ones.

Most likely. Despite that the naysayers always whine about certain Disney films receiving less attention than others.

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I'm assuming Gerda and Kai would just be villagers, since Disney wasn't obsessed back then with making every heroine a princess. The Snow Queen character would have been the queen of the snowbees. The film would still have a princess (and prince) though if they kept the part where Gerda visits the palace.

Yeah, say what you want about Disney in the nineties, but at least they weren't obsessed of making every heroine a Princess. And thank goodness for that. Wonder if Disney would've had the Princess and a Prince nonetheless.

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Yeah, I can see what you mean that Timon and Terk have more in common than Pumbaa and Tantor despite the color scheme. I always felt that Timon's overall bossiness and tendency to co-opt anything Pumbaa says to be one of the highlights of the duo's chemistry. That's just me though. I don't remember their portrayals in the series, but I do remember Timon doing that in the original film.

Well, their dynamic was pretty much the same in the the series.

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Good point about the live-action Beast and how Tumblr feels about him, because I was wondering the same thing. I remember people overall liking the backstory he was given but I don't remember him becoming an overall huge object of the Tumblr fandom's affections.

Really? Does he have a fanbase on Tumblr? I didn't know. But thanks :D


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:47 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Beauty and the Beast is indeed Disney's most beloved and acclaimed film. There's no question about that. Regardless of what people think, every Disnerd knows BATB's regarded position in Disney history. It's so regarded so much that it's been labeled as perfect (despite it's plot holes that people has ranted about for several years :P). What are your thoughts about BATB, btw?

I wonder if there's going to be another film that will beat Frozen twenty years from now. But at least Frozen is a full cicrcle for Disney, since it's a Princess movie (yes, please indulge me for using that term, but if we're going to be technical, it's what they are) that has become a Box Office Champion. Remember that a not only Disney's trademarks, but hits as well, as proven wiyh Snow White, Cinderella, BATB and Tangled.

Since the Revival era has mirrored the Renaissance, it's remarkable that Frozen wasn't an animal movie like The Lion King, since that would've made the synergy even more overt. But no matter what you can say about The Lion King, at least it's a way better movie than Frozen.

I'm surprised that Big Hero 6 never got a sequel, due to it's premise screaming franchise. But at least it got a TV series. Not that surprised over Moana isn't getting any sequel, yet it wasn't a flop either.

Me too. Most of what was said about Lasseter was pure praise, but afterwards it was implied that he wasn't a Messiah. So I'm glad he was exposed, despite that I believe that he'll still have his defenders. Good riddance.

True. Bambi gets more promotion as a fawn than as an adult, which is a departure from Simba, who gets equal exposure. Same with Nala. But since we now have Simba's Pride and The Lion Guard, Simba spends more time as an adult, anyways :P But I think it's fair, since Simba is more likable and tolerable as an adult, anyways.

Alright, fair enough. But Hunchback is still regarded as belonging to the underrated-shelf and not being as promoted. Wonder if Disney would dare to give it a live action adaptation. At least The Fox and the Hound got a non-canon cheapquel (that I've never seen).

Most likely. But it's still a pity that they won't give it a proper documentary. Have you seen The Sweatbox, btw?

Agreed. I don't loathe him, but he's just meh. But at least he serves as a friend to our male lead (which is unusual for an animated feature, Disney or not, despite that he's not a realistic one). But at least he gets to progress the plot in the first movie.

Most likely. Despite that the naysayers always whine about certain Disney films receiving less attention than others.

Yeah, say what you want about Disney in the nineties, but at least they weren't obsessed of making every heroine a Princess. And thank goodness for that. Wonder if Disney would've had the Princess and a Prince nonetheless.

Well, their dynamic was pretty much the same in the the series.

Really? Does he have a fanbase on Tumblr? I didn't know. But thanks :D


I like BATB a lot although I don't think it's perfect. The inconsistent animation is a major hit against the film imo. The "plot holes" don't really bother me tbh. I would have liked solo songs for Belle and the Beast though just because Gaston ends up singing more in this film than either of them.

I too am curious as to whether what the next Lion King/Frozen will be. Zootopia had the box office results but I don't think it had the same lasting appeal for whatever reason. I definitely would call Frozen a princes movie, not a fairy tale film. Imo, the fairy tale films were all the ones created before there was a princess franchise. On top of that, Frozen isn't even really a fairy tale so princess is a better fitting moniker. The Lion King definitely isn't as flawed as Frozen. I think Frozen received the accolades and public acclaim that it did because it came out at the right time with all the right pieces.

Big Hero 6 didn't do nearly as well as the two films it was sandwiched between: Frozen and Zootopia. Even with the Marvel logo attached to it (although the Marvel influence was minimal). Not to mention, Disney already has one animated blockbuster superhero franchise, The Incredibles, so I don't think they really see the need to expand Big Hero 6.

I prefer adult Simba as well. Child Simba is pretty annoying actually. Nala I like at both ages. The Bambi characters I tend to prefer as children though. Not that there's anything wrong with their adult incarnations, but I find them to be more appealing as children.

I think Disney recognizes that Hunchback has appeal, it just doesn't fit their mainstream family-friendy appeal that Disney is known for. Hence why the stage show didn't even have the Disney name attached as if they didn't want to be associated wit it (or they felt that it would be off-putting for people who want to watch a serious, mature show). I'd love a live-action film for Hunchback but I don't think we'll see one. It's not really the type of film to relegate to streaming either imo. The Fox and the Hound midquel is awful. I think I shut it off halfway through just because it was so irrelevant and unnecessary, even moreso than typical Disney sequels.

I always want to get around to watching The Sweatbox but I never get around to it. I've seen clips of it though, mainly relating to Yzma's song, Snuff Out the Light. One day I plan on actually watching it though. Have you seen it?

Yeah, Bromley actualy gets some development seeing as how he's instrumental in helping Derek defeat Rothbart in the first film. So his inclusion is somewhat warranted.

They do have a point though that not every Disney film gets the same treatment. Really just most of the Walt Era films and the Big Four get attention along with Lilo & Stitch, Tangled, Frozen, and now Moana. The Dark Ages films are entirely absent except Marie gets constant exposure which keeps her movie somewhat alive although the other characters are ignored at the expense of Marie. Now Mulan gets attention but the rest of the late Renaissance films are mostly ignored.

I'm certain that a character like Meg would have been a DP had the DP franchise existed at that point. Even Mulan would probably get her story changed to make her a princess by the end, such as by turning Shang into the Emperor's son.

I haven't seen the series in a long time but I'm not surprised to hear that. It was never my favorite Disney TV show.

Sorry, what I was trying to say is that the live-action Beast doesn't have a strong following on Tumblr. Which I thought was somewhat surprising since he fits into the mold of character that Tumblr likes such as Elsa and Kylo Ren. The only time I remember hearing discussion about live-action Beast was when the movie first came out but it's not really talked about now.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:24 pm 
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I like BATB a lot although I don't think it's perfect. The inconsistent animation is a major hit against the film imo. The "plot holes" don't really bother me tbh. I would have liked solo songs for Belle and the Beast though just because Gaston ends up singing more in this film than either of them. .

I like BATB more now than I did as a child, despite not finding it as perfect. I like the songs, the score and Belle is a quite likable heroine. However, I find Gaston to be not as compelling as most people do and frankly, I've never been so fond of the comedy in the film, which is quite grating.

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I too am curious as to whether what the next Lion King/Frozen will be. Zootopia had the box office results but I don't think it had the same lasting appeal for whatever reason.

Some people have cited that Zootopia could probably date faster due to it being more modern.

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I definitely would call Frozen a princes movie, not a fairy tale film. Imo, the fairy tale films were all the ones created before there was a princess franchise. On top of that, Frozen isn't even really a fairy tale so princess is a better fitting moniker.

Reviewer Ben Simon from Animated Views cited that TPATF was Disney's first Princess movie and that Disney never made Princess-movies prior to it.

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Big Hero 6 didn't do nearly as well as the two films it was sandwiched between: Frozen and Zootopia. Even with the Marvel logo attached to it (although the Marvel influence was minimal). Not to mention, Disney already has one animated blockbuster superhero franchise, The Incredibles, so I don't think they really see the need to expand Big Hero 6.

It's remarkable to think that a mash-up project with the Marvel name didn't make a huge profit. But it's remarkable that Disney chose an unknown Marvel property to brand it. I know several people compare Big Hero 6 to The Incredibles, but regardless of how homogenous Disney and Pixar has been, at least Disney also deserve to have their own superhero franchise.

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I prefer adult Simba as well. Child Simba is pretty annoying actually. Nala I like at both ages. The Bambi characters I tend to prefer as children though. Not that there's anything wrong with their adult incarnations, but I find them to be more appealing as children.

Agreed. I dislike cub Simba due to the reasons people dislike him; Because of being an entitled and cocky semi-brat. However, to his defense, he does mellow up after his trauma. Whereas about Nala, I find cub Nala to be somewhat mischevious as well and to be an improvement as an adult. As the Bambi characters, I prefer them as fawns, cause I find adult Bambi a little bland. Faline is fine as an adult, though she has more personality as a fawn. As for Tod and Copper, both are definitively endearing as cubs, though Tod comes across as even more likable and charismatic as an adult. Copper has his own faults :P

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I think Disney recognizes that Hunchback has appeal, it just doesn't fit their mainstream family-friendy appeal that Disney is known for. Hence why the stage show didn't even have the Disney name attached as if they didn't want to be associated wit it (or they felt that it would be off-putting for people who want to watch a serious, mature show). I'd love a live-action film for Hunchback but I don't think we'll see one. It's not really the type of film to relegate to streaming either imo.

Agreed. It baffles me how people tend to ignore Hunchback's controversies and tend to find newer Disney even more controversial and groundbreaking than priorly. As for the LaJolla version, it's somewhat contradicting to not have the Disney logo on it, since it's Disney's version, something that is a departure from Hugo's version, nonetheless :P

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I always want to get around to watching The Sweatbox but I never get around to it. I've seen clips of it though, mainly relating to Yzma's song, Snuff Out the Light. One day I plan on actually watching it though. Have you seen it?

Yup, I've seen it once. It's really interesting and I really liked it. It certainly shows some clips from Kingdom of the Sun, though they're unfortunately in minority, since The Emperor's New Groove takes most of the spot. But at least it's something, cause they shows some rough animation of Manco, Pacha and Yzma.

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They do have a point though that not every Disney film gets the same treatment. Really just most of the Walt Era films and the Big Four get attention along with Lilo & Stitch, Tangled, Frozen, and now Moana. The Dark Ages films are entirely absent except Marie gets constant exposure which keeps her movie somewhat alive although the other characters are ignored at the expense of Marie. Now Mulan gets attention but the rest of the late Renaissance films are mostly ignored.

Agreed, though I personally think that Hercules has rised from it's ground and become more worshipped and appreciated. I remember there were being some naysayers claiming that Mulan's popularity is just because of her inclusion in the DP franchise. But Mulan has a higher fanbase and more ratings, overall.
I know there is some affection for The Aristocats, regardless of it's position.
It's funny to think that Lilo & Stitch was the only hit in a brief time of failures and that it was a brief revival of hand drawn, just to experience that hand drawn would see it's demise just five months later.

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Sorry, what I was trying to say is that the live-action Beast doesn't have a strong following on Tumblr. Which I thought was somewhat surprising since he fits into the mold of character that Tumblr likes such as Elsa and Kylo Ren. The only time I remember hearing discussion about live-action Beast was when the movie first came out but it's not really talked about now.

Oh, sorry for that misunderstanding. I agree. There are some complaints about him being a bigger jerk in the live action version.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:51 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I like BATB more now than I did as a child, despite not finding it as perfect. I like the songs, the score and Belle is a quite likable heroine. However, I find Gaston to be not as compelling as most people do and frankly, I've never been so fond of the comedy in the film, which is quite grating.

Some people have cited that Zootopia could probably date faster due to it being more modern.

Reviewer Ben Simon from Animated Views cited that TPATF was Disney's first Princess movie and that Disney never made Princess-movies prior to it.

It's remarkable to think that a mash-up project with the Marvel name didn't make a huge profit. But it's remarkable that Disney chose an unknown Marvel property to brand it. I know several people compare Big Hero 6 to The Incredibles, but regardless of how homogenous Disney and Pixar has been, at least Disney also deserve to have their own superhero franchise.

Agreed. I dislike cub Simba due to the reasons people dislike him; Because of being an entitled and cocky semi-brat. However, to his defense, he does mellow up after his trauma. Whereas about Nala, I find cub Nala to be somewhat mischevious as well and to be an improvement as an adult. As the Bambi characters, I prefer them as fawns, cause I find adult Bambi a little bland. Faline is fine as an adult, though she has more personality as a fawn. As for Tod and Copper, both are definitively endearing as cubs, though Tod comes across as even more likable and charismatic as an adult. Copper has his own faults :P

Agreed. It baffles me how people tend to ignore Hunchback's controversies and tend to find newer Disney even more controversial and groundbreaking than priorly. As for the LaJolla version, it's somewhat contradicting to not have the Disney logo on it, since it's Disney's version, something that is a departure from Hugo's version, nonetheless :P

Yup, I've seen it once. It's really interesting and I really liked it. It certainly shows some clips from Kingdom of the Sun, though they're unfortunately in minority, since The Emperor's New Groove takes most of the spot. But at least it's something, cause they shows some rough animation of Manco, Pacha and Yzma.

Agreed, though I personally think that Hercules has rised from it's ground and become more worshipped and appreciated. I remember there were being some naysayers claiming that Mulan's popularity is just because of her inclusion in the DP franchise. But Mulan has a higher fanbase and more ratings, overall.
I know there is some affection for The Aristocats, regardless of it's position.
It's funny to think that Lilo & Stitch was the only hit in a brief time of failures and that it was a brief revival of hand drawn, just to experience that hand drawn would see it's demise just five months later.

Oh, sorry for that misunderstanding. I agree. There are some complaints about him being a bigger jerk in the live action version.

I enjoy Gaston as a villain although I can see why some people think he doesn't stack up to the Disney greats like Maleficent, Cruella, Ursula, Jafar, Scar, etc. He works well enough in the film for me though. What scenes that were intended to be funny do you not like?

I never really thought of Zootopia as being a film that could be dated. I suppose that's true but I think it can hold up well regardless of some specific references.

This certainly explains why I haven't liked any of the recent princess films very much, since all the ones before 2000 weren't princess films but fairy tale films.

Big Hero 6 suffers from more generic characters though. The Incredibles did a good job of fleshing out all the main characters in one film but Big Hero 6 really just focuses on Hiro and Baymax. Baymax is lovable but Hiro is a tad bit generic imo and the rest of the characters get very little screentime so there's not much reasons for audiences to love them.

How do you feel about child Kiara vs adult Kiara? And Kovu too for that matter? Lol, Copper definitely has his faults. I have to agree on that as well as adult Faline being more bland than her younger version.

I think most of the animation scenes from Kingdom of the Sun, I've seen in the form of little snippets on Tumblr. I really do want to get around to watching it one of these days. Do you remember if Eartha Kitt has any significant screentime in it beyond singing Snuff Out the Light?

I've noticed in the past few years that Hercules has been getting more and more merchandise and fans are loving it a lot more. However, it still gets little representation even if it isn't as non-existent as Hunchback and Tarzan are. I'm not the biggest fan of The Aristocats myself tbh. I liked it enough when I was younger but the film doesn't hold up as well anymore and I really can't see why people adore Marie so much. As for Lilo & Stitch, I was too young to be aware about the situation with hand-drawn animation at the time but I can imagine how disheartening it must have been for this film to be a big success, making people believe that hand-drawn animation still had a place with Disney, only for Treasure Planet's grisly demise to scrap any hopes of that.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:37 pm 
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I enjoy Gaston as a villain although I can see why some people think he doesn't stack up to the Disney greats like Maleficent, Cruella, Ursula, Jafar, Scar, etc. He works well enough in the film for me though.

To be honest, I've never perceived Gaston that way. I guess I've should've given him a chance, but he just doesn't do it for me. The best Disney villains does have a certain charisma to them, but I don't think Gaston has it. Yet, to be fair, he does improve throughout the film and becomes more threatening.

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What scenes (in BATB) that were intended to be funny do you not like?

To be honest, most of the slapstick comedy. I felt pretty much everything about the slapstick was off-putting, jarring and out of place.

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This certainly explains why I haven't liked any of the recent princess films very much, since all the ones before 2000 weren't princess films but fairy tale films.

Don't take this the wrong way, but why is that?

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Big Hero 6 suffers from more generic characters though. Baymax is lovable but Hiro is a tad bit generic imo and the rest of the characters get very little screentime so there's not much reasons for audiences to love them.

I somewhat agree. Though they don't become unsufferable, none of them truly shines. As you said, the rest of the squad gets little screentime, despite displaying more potential than the leads. Just wondering, what do you think about the inclusion of Hiro's brothers death? To be honest, I don't have anything against it, but I do find it to be a little shoehorned in.

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The Incredibles did a good job of fleshing out all the main characters in one film but Big Hero 6 really just focuses on Hiro and Baymax.

I agree, but the characters in The Incredibles are more generic than those in Big Hero 6. To be honest, I find their arcs to be too conventional and some of them are more fleshed out (Dash), whereas others aren't developed enough (Violet and Mirage). Besides, the storyline of The Incredibles is too generic to be inventive.

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How do you feel about child Kiara vs adult Kiara? And Kovu too for that matter?

Kiara as a cub is endearing enough and certainly more tolerable than she's an adult. While I've realized that she's flawed as well as a cub, her faults becomes more massive later on. Kovu is fine enough as a cub, but blander as grown. Besides, despite having more depth and being more of a tragic character, his arc is too conventional, almost to a point when it becomes downright laughable.

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I have to agree on that as well as adult Faline being more bland than her younger version.

True, but I don't find adult Faline to be that bland. But that's just me.

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I think most of the animation scenes from Kingdom of the Sun, I've seen in the form of little snippets on Tumblr. I really do want to get around to watching it one of these days. Do you remember if Eartha Kitt has any significant screentime in it beyond singing Snuff Out the Light?

You know what, she does. They show her record some lines beyond that song. But they do show the recording of that song. As for the animation of Kingdom of the Sun, it made me eager to see more of that movie :P

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I've noticed in the past few years that Hercules has been getting more and more merchandise and fans are loving it a lot more. However, it still gets little representation even if it isn't as non-existent as Hunchback and Tarzan are.

Fair enough. Hercules does belong in that category, to be honest. But I don't think Disney historians are particularly keen on that movie, either. They have a tendency to dismiss it.

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As for Lilo & Stitch, I was too young to be aware about the situation with hand-drawn animation at the time but I can imagine how disheartening it must have been for this film to be a big success, making people believe that hand-drawn animation still had a place with Disney, only for Treasure Planet's grisly demise to scrap any hopes of that.

True, but personally I find it more disheartening that hand drawn animation was dismissed after bringing it shortly back after tha arrival of CGI (with TPATF). But that's just me, though. I wonder if Enchanted gets a sequel, the buzz about returning to hand drawn will be huge. Let's hope that the quality of hand drawn sequences will be good.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:34 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
To be honest, I've never perceived Gaston that way. I guess I've should've given him a chance, but he just doesn't do it for me. The best Disney villains does have a certain charisma to them, but I don't think Gaston has it. Yet, to be fair, he does improve throughout the film and becomes more threatening.

To be honest, most of the slapstick comedy. I felt pretty much everything about the slapstick was off-putting, jarring and out of place.

Don't take this the wrong way, but why is that?

I somewhat agree. Though they don't become unsufferable, none of them truly shines. As you said, the rest of the squad gets little screentime, despite displaying more potential than the leads. Just wondering, what do you think about the inclusion of Hiro's brothers death? To be honest, I don't have anything against it, but I do find it to be a little shoehorned in.

I agree, but the characters in The Incredibles are more generic than those in Big Hero 6. To be honest, I find their arcs to be too conventional and some of them are more fleshed out (Dash), whereas others aren't developed enough (Violet and Mirage). Besides, the storyline of The Incredibles is too generic to be inventive.

Kiara as a cub is endearing enough and certainly more tolerable than she's an adult. While I've realized that she's flawed as well as a cub, her faults becomes more massive later on. Kovu is fine enough as a cub, but blander as grown. Besides, despite having more depth and being more of a tragic character, his arc is too conventional, almost to a point when it becomes downright laughable.

True, but I don't find adult Faline to be that bland. But that's just me.

You know what, she does. They show her record some lines beyond that song. But they do show the recording of that song. As for the animation of Kingdom of the Sun, it made me eager to see more of that movie :P

Fair enough. Hercules does belong in that category, to be honest. But I don't think Disney historians are particularly keen on that movie, either. They have a tendency to dismiss it.

True, but personally I find it more disheartening that hand drawn animation was dismissed after bringing it shortly back after tha arrival of CGI (with TPATF). But that's just me, though. I wonder if Enchanted gets a sequel, the buzz about returning to hand drawn will be huge. Let's hope that the quality of hand drawn sequences will be good.

How do you feel about the live-action portrayal of Gaston by Luke Evans?

I don't remember much slapstick in the film besides Cogsworth and Lumiere banter and then the battle scene at the end which does get criticism although not nearly as much as Hunchback's ending does. I can see your point though, especially in the song Human Again.

I don't like how the new princess films seem to be created just for the purpose of adding another princess to the franchise. During the 90s, the films weren't created to fulfill some quota and just for the purpose of merchandise. No one is denying that Disney didn't try the market the hell out of these films, but at the same time, the films weren't greenlighted just for merchandise sake. Hunchback would never have been created then. Films like Hercules and Tarzan were still made despite the fact that male-oriented Disney films didn't tend to do as well when it came to selling merchandise. Frankly, this trend applies to non-princess films now as well such as all the Disney sequels, but mainly Cars comes to mind. The only reason the franchise continues to exist is because even with the lackluster box office returns, the franchise is one of Disney's most lucrative.

I didn't mind the death of Tadashi. It worked well enough for me although I can see why people would feel he was just killed off so that audiences would feel for the characters and so it was nothing other than a cheap emotional play. I know lots of people preferred Tadashi over Hiro, although I'm not one of them. I do think his death works since it brings the group together around Hiro and Baymax and Baymax is sort of a spiritual successor, not to mention Hiro takes his brother's place in the group of friends. I'm not sure the dynamic would work as well with both brothers in place.

I don't find the Incredibles characters to be generic. Bob and Helen both get a lot of character development throughout both films, Bob moreso than Helen though since he requires more changes. Violet I think develops way more than Dash does in the first film. Dash doesn't really change at all from beginning to end. He enjoys using his powers and wants to race and ultimately Helen allows him to do so. Violet however goes from a shy, introverted girl who hides her face to someone confident enough to ask her crush out. Mirage I don't really count because she's a supporting character and she's meant to be enigmatic. I don't think I agree that the Incredibles plotline is derivative either. Maybe now it feels that way because there have been so many superhero films since, but this film was the superhero blockbuster way before the Marvel movies became vogue and it also resonated with all ages.

I agree that adult Kiara is more flawed than her younger counterpart. They try to make Kovu somewhat of a rogue and antihero character that was so popular in the 90s but they very quickly backtrack from that path, as if afraid that audiences wouldn't root for him anymore then.

I don't really mind Faline's role either because she serves her purpose and unlike similar female characters (Vixey), we did get to see her at other times of her life.

Ok, then I definitely need to watch The Sweatbox in its entirety soon. Thanks for informing me!

Hercules usually gets voted the weakest of the Disney Renaissance. If not Hercules, then Pocahontas. The Rescuers Down Under is never even considered lol.

Enchanted's hand-drawn scenes probably won't be any longer than anything in Mary Poppins Returns so if there's any buzz to capitalize on, it would probably be now since the gap between Mary Poppins Returns and Winnie the Pooh will likely be longer than the gap between Enchanted 2 and Mary Poppins Returns. And this is all hypothetical since we don't even know if Enchanted 2 will ever see the light of day at this point since it's been in development hell for years now. Personally I think it's going to fade away like the Roger Rabbit sequels. A reboot in a decade or two is more likely.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:24 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
How do you feel about the live-action portrayal of Gaston by Luke Evans?

Well, he was certainly hot as Gaston! :D He did a fine job, though I agree with those who thinks that Gaston's arc was inconsistent. Gaston has some moments where he comes across as somewhat redeemable, but still becomes villainous at the end. But there has been some theories of making a sequel where he returns.

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I don't remember much slapstick in the film besides Cogsworth and Lumiere banter and then the battle scene at the end which does get criticism although not nearly as much as Hunchback's ending does. I can see your point though, especially in the song Human Again.

True, but I don't think Human Again was the worst example of jarring comedy.

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I don't like how the new princess films seem to be created just for the purpose of adding another princess to the franchise. During the 90s, the films weren't created to fulfill some quota and just for the purpose of merchandise. No one is denying that Disney didn't try the market the hell out of these films, but at the same time, the films weren't greenlighted just for merchandise sake. Hunchback would never have been created then. Films like Hercules and Tarzan were still made despite the fact that male-oriented Disney films didn't tend to do as well when it came to selling merchandise. Frankly, this trend applies to non-princess films now as well such as all the Disney sequels, but mainly Cars comes to mind. The only reason the franchise continues to exist is because even with the lackluster box office returns, the franchise is one of Disney's most lucrative.

Alright, fair enough. Though Disney has still made films with male protagonists during this Revival era. But I wonder if we'll ever see a Disney musical with a male on it, like the Renaissance films.

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I didn't mind the death of Tadashi. It worked well enough for me although I can see why people would feel he was just killed off so that audiences would feel for the characters and so it was nothing other than a cheap emotional play. I know lots of people preferred Tadashi over Hiro, although I'm not one of them. I do think his death works since it brings the group together around Hiro and Baymax and Baymax is sort of a spiritual successor, not to mention Hiro takes his brother's place in the group of friends. I'm not sure the dynamic would work as well with both brothers in place.

Fair enough. I didn't mind Tadashi's death, but it still felt a little shoehorned in, due to how death was suddenly seemed as a Disney trope and how that trope was increased in the Renaissance and later on. When in fact death wasn't a big issue in Walt's films, with the exception of Bambi. But because of Bambi, it's been a trope and certainly the loss of a sibling. I can see why people liked Tadashi more, because he was a redeemable older brother and his relationship with Hiro was heartwarming enough.

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I don't find the Incredibles characters to be generic. Bob and Helen both get a lot of character development throughout both films, Bob moreso than Helen though since he requires more changes. Violet I think develops way more than Dash does in the first film. Dash doesn't really change at all from beginning to end. He enjoys using his powers and wants to race and ultimately Helen allows him to do so. Violet however goes from a shy, introverted girl who hides her face to someone confident enough to ask her crush out. Mirage I don't really count because she's a supporting character and she's meant to be enigmatic. I don't think I agree that the Incredibles plotline is derivative either. Maybe now it feels that way because there have been so many superhero films since, but this film was the superhero blockbuster way before the Marvel movies became vogue and it also resonated with all ages.

Alright, fair enough.

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I agree that adult Kiara is more flawed than her younger counterpart. They try to make Kovu somewhat of a rogue and antihero character that was so popular in the 90s but they very quickly backtrack from that path, as if afraid that audiences wouldn't root for him anymore then.

Were the antiheroes so popular in the nineties?

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Ok, then I definitely need to watch The Sweatbox in its entirety soon. Thanks for informing me!

You're welcome.

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Hercules usually gets voted the weakest of the Disney Renaissance. If not Hercules, then Pocahontas. The Rescuers Down Under is never even considered lol.

I know the weakest film of the Renaissance is something of a passionate and subjective debate, due to people considering if Pocahontas, Hunchback or Hercules were the ones who were the weakest of the Renaissance.

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Enchanted's hand-drawn scenes probably won't be any longer than anything in Mary Poppins Returns so if there's any buzz to capitalize on, it would probably be now since the gap between Mary Poppins Returns and Winnie the Pooh will likely be longer than the gap between Enchanted 2 and Mary Poppins Returns. And this is all hypothetical since we don't even know if Enchanted 2 will ever see the light of day at this point since it's been in development hell for years now. Personally I think it's going to fade away like the Roger Rabbit sequels. A reboot in a decade or two is more likely.

To be honest, I'm not crazy about the hand drawn scenes in Mary Poppins Returns. They look awful I hoped that we could see an Enchanted 2, but it's been in delopment hell for years now. But you've probably right. But which franchise do you mean that would see a reboot?


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