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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:11 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I'm more of an Ariel fan than a Belle fan although I don't really believe the criticism that Belle gets from her haters. Although TLM is my personal favorite film, I don't deny that BATB has more depth to it. At the same time, I don't think TLM is really that much lacking in depth. Most certainly can't say the same about Tangled.

I prefer Belle to Ariel. And I'm not hating Ariel, but I just find Belle more endearing, appealing and last, but not least hotter ;) But I think Ariel gets overall more flack than Belle.

Fair enough, but I think that Tangled has more depth than Mermaid. And I'm not denying that Mermaid lacks depth completely, but it's a Musker and Clements movie and they've known for being fun and light. I feel that the depth in Mermaid is secondary. I'm one of those who thinks that The Princess and the Frog is this generations Mermaid (both cronologically and tone-wise), while Tangled is this generations Beauty. But I know there are different opinions about that, since many compares Mermaid to Tangled and Frozen to Beauty (which is understandable enough, since both shares similar components).

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Lol, I'm sure there's nothing to forgive.

Thanks :D

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Out of the classic fairy tale princes (which don't include the Beast and Aladdin), Derek is certainly the most fleshed out, even more than Eric. But there's just a lack of consistency in the overall character arcs for him and Odette. And frankly, I always found Rothbart to be forgettable, especially design-wise. I wish Disney could have made Swan Lake way back in the day.

I agree that Rothbart is forgettable. Not utterly generic, but passable and little beyond that.

I actually think Eric is a fairly good character and I don't he gets the credit he deserves. He may not be as winning as the best Disney male leads, but I think that he's a way superior charater that he gets credit for. He's kind, likable and does many right things.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:28 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I prefer Belle to Ariel. And I'm not hating Ariel, but I just find Belle more endearing, appealing and last, but not least hotter ;) But I think Ariel gets overall more flack than Belle.

Fair enough, but I think that Tangled has more depth than Mermaid. And I'm not denying that Mermaid lacks depth completely, but it's a Musker and Clements movie and they've known for being fun and light. I feel that the depth in Mermaid is secondary. I'm one of those who thinks that The Princess and the Frog is this generations Mermaid (both cronologically and tone-wise), while Tangled is this generations Beauty. But I know there are different opinions about that, since many compares Mermaid to Tangled and Frozen to Beauty (which is understandable enough, since both shares similar components).

I agree that Rothbart is forgettable. Not utterly generic, but passable and little beyond that.

I actually think Eric is a fairly good character and I don't he gets the credit he deserves. He may not be as winning as the best Disney male leads, but I think that he's a way superior charater that he gets credit for. He's kind, likable and does many right things.

For some reason, Belle never appealed to me very much when I was younger. Ironically enough I have a lot in common with her but that's become more pronounced in recent years so now I love and appreciate Belle a lot more. Ariel will probably always be my favorite though. I agree that she gets the most flack out of any of the princesses, except for the classic three.

I find Tangled especially lacking in depth. Flynn is just a Dreamworks character but Disney gives him a very generic backstory as Eugene which didn't affect me emotionally at all (not sure what that says about me lol). Rapunzel doesn't seem at all like a character who's been emotionally and socially stunted for 18 years. Quasi was a pretty realistic depiction, but Rapunzel sounds and feels like any teenager you'd see on the road in the 21st century. She's way too adaptable and perky, and while I'm not asking for a Rapunzel who becomes insane and suicidal like she was in the Into the Woods stage adaptation, I would have liked to have seen way more of her inner psyche explored than the superficial gloss we got. Glen Keane's Rapunzel sounded very layered and would have been a more realistic depiction of an abused child.

Gothel also is a character who I don't really get in Tangled. It's left ambiguous whether or not she really loves Rapunzel for who she is, or just for her hair, but I would have liked a more definitive answer to that. She's also lackluster as a villainess for me, and only Donna Murphy's performance gives her some memorablility. I'm not too fond of her design either. The Gothel from Barbie's Rapunzel was maybe too much of a prototypical Lady Tremaine-Maleficent character, but she was far more interesting than anything Disney did with Gothel. It helped that she was voiced by Anjelica Huston there.

As for TPATF, that reminds me more of Oliver & Company at worst, or The Great Mouse Detective at best. People say it ushered in Disney's return to fairy tales, but really that honor should go to Enchanted which debuted 2 years before TPATF. And Tangled, as much as I hate to admit it, was the one that really won audiences back.

I actually think Eric is the best developed of the classic princes, certainly more than Florian and Henry, and even more than Phillip who still got a great deal of character and screentime compared to his predecessors. However, Eric can't compare to the Beast and Aladdin who are titular characters. Aladdin is certainly the central character of his story and even the Beast can be argued as the main character since that is what Howard Ashman believed. As for Derek, he's not the main character, but a lot of screentime is devoted to him and his life, so I think he ends up more fleshed out than Eric. However, I didn't mean to make it sound like I'd discounted Eric. He's one of my favorite Disney princes, if not my absolute favorite (I'm torn between him and Phillip).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:16 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
For some reason, Belle never appealed to me very much when I was younger. Ironically enough I have a lot in common with her but that's become more pronounced in recent years so now I love and appreciate Belle a lot more. Ariel will probably always be my favorite though. I agree that she gets the most flack out of any of the princesses, except for the classic three.


I have in lot of common with Belle as well :P. I remember Nostalgia Critic/Doug Walker citing on his review that he was surprised that Jasmine wasn't more hated, due to the reasons to hate her.

And sure, Walt's Princesses gets a lot of flack, but as The Three Commentears put it, it's Cinderella who gets the most flack for all the Princesses, due to the obvious reasons. But for what the Princesses are essentially criticized for (their blandness) I think that Cinderella has some moments where she shows a genuine personality, but it's not as enhanced enough. But she's certainly more mature than Snow White, who does perhaps have more of a genuine personality than her two other followers.

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I find Tangled especially lacking in depth. Flynn is just a Dreamworks character but Disney gives him a very generic backstory as Eugene which didn't affect me emotionally at all (not sure what that says about me lol).

Yeah, it says a lot about you :P

Perhaps depth isn't the right term, but at least Tangled is darker and more harrowing than TPAFT, which was pretty jolly and lightweight (with the exception of the death scene). The same issue can be discussed with Mermaid vs. Beauty, the latter being more darker and harrowing than the former.

I agree about Flynn, who's been labeled as a DreamWorks-character by many (which pretty much was his intention). But the worst thing about his backstory is essentially how we doesn't get to hear a single word about his parents or why he was an orphan (not to mention his generic name, Eugene).

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Rapunzel doesn't seem at all like a character who's been emotionally and socially stunted for 18 years. Quasi was a pretty realistic depiction, but Rapunzel sounds and feels like any teenager you'd see on the road in the 21st century. She's way too adaptable and perky, and while I'm not asking for a Rapunzel who becomes insane and suicidal like she was in the Into the Woods stage adaptation, I would have liked to have seen way more of her inner psyche explored than the superficial gloss we got. Glen Keane's Rapunzel sounded very layered and would have been a more realistic depiction of an abused child.

I've read some complains about Quasimodo as well, but I agree that he was more realistic. Though Rapunzel has her moments of doubt, she does adapt more quickly. I've heard constant comparisons between her and Ariel, but frankly I disagree (at least with Ariel in the movie, at least the comparison in the series makes more sense for me).

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Gothel also is a character who I don't really get in Tangled. It's left ambiguous whether or not she really loves Rapunzel for who she is, or just for her hair, but I would have liked a more definitive answer to that. She's also lackluster as a villainess for me, and only Donna Murphy's performance gives her some memorablility. I'm not too fond of her design either. The Gothel from Barbie's Rapunzel was maybe too much of a prototypical Lady Tremaine-Maleficent character, but she was far more interesting than anything Disney did with Gothel. It helped that she was voiced by Anjelica Huston there.

I've couldn't have said it better myself! Gothel was a generic villain and a underdeveloped character. She lacks the "it" factor that makes the best Disney villlains. I like her design, but that's about it. At least TPATF had a much better villain.

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As for TPATF, that reminds me more of Oliver & Company at worst, or The Great Mouse Detective at best. People say it ushered in Disney's return to fairy tales, but really that honor should go to Enchanted which debuted 2 years before TPATF. And Tangled, as much as I hate to admit it, was the one that really won audiences back.

Yeah, but remember that Enchanted was just a modest hit and was a blend of live action and animation. And the buzz around the hand drawn sequences was not as huge. I hoped that it would at least pay the way for a comeback for hand drawn animation to come back, but unfortunately it wasn't the case. And besides, since Disney has milked the Princess franchise as heck, it would be easy to assume that Giselle was going to join the lineup (and yes, I know all about the reason why she wasn't).

What are your thoughts about Enchanted, anyway?

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I actually think Eric is the best developed of the classic princes, certainly more than Florian and Henry, and even more than Phillip who still got a great deal of character and screentime compared to his predecessors. However, Eric can't compare to the Beast and Aladdin who are titular characters. Aladdin is certainly the central character of his story and even the Beast can be argued as the main character since that is what Howard Ashman believed. As for Derek, he's not the main character, but a lot of screentime is devoted to him and his life, so I think he ends up more fleshed out than Eric. However, I didn't mean to make it sound like I'd discounted Eric. He's one of my favorite Disney princes, if not my absolute favorite (I'm torn between him and Phillip).

Who's Florian and Henry?

I'm glad you like Prince Eric and it always irked me when people have neglected him at the expense of the Beast (even Disney themselves have done that). Perhaps Eric may be bland and boring, but he has good sides that makes up for it. I also happen to like Aladdin as well, who has a real personality and is not as bland as people wants him to be.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:24 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I have in lot of common with Belle as well :P. I remember Nostalgia Critic/Doug Walker citing on his review that he was surprised that Jasmine wasn't more hated, due to the reasons to hate her.

And sure, Walt's Princesses gets a lot of flack, but as The Three Commentears put it, it's Cinderella who gets the most flack for all the Princesses, due to the obvious reasons. But for what the Princesses are essentially criticized for (their blandness) I think that Cinderella has some moments where she shows a genuine personality, but it's not as enhanced enough. But she's certainly more mature than Snow White, who does perhaps have more of a genuine personality than her two other followers.

Perhaps depth isn't the right term, but at least Tangled is darker and more harrowing than TPAFT, which was pretty jolly and lightweight (with the exception of the death scene). The same issue can be discussed with Mermaid vs. Beauty, the latter being more darker and harrowing than the former.

I agree about Flynn, who's been labeled as a DreamWorks-character by many (which pretty much was his intention). But the worst thing about his backstory is essentially how we doesn't get to hear a single word about his parents or why he was an orphan (not to mention his generic name, Eugene).

I've read some complains about Quasimodo as well, but I agree that he was more realistic. Though Rapunzel has her moments of doubt, she does adapt more quickly. I've heard constant comparisons between her and Ariel, but frankly I disagree (at least with Ariel in the movie, at least the comparison in the series makes more sense for me).

I've couldn't have said it better myself! Gothel was a generic villain and a underdeveloped character. She lacks the "it" factor that makes the best Disney villlains. I like her design, but that's about it. At least TPATF had a much better villain.

Yeah, but remember that Enchanted was just a modest hit and was a blend of live action and animation. And the buzz around the hand drawn sequences was not as huge. I hoped that it would at least pay the way for a comeback for hand drawn animation to come back, but unfortunately it wasn't the case. And besides, since Disney has milked the Princess franchise as heck, it would be easy to assume that Giselle was going to join the lineup (and yes, I know all about the reason why she wasn't).

What are your thoughts about Enchanted, anyway?

Who's Florian and Henry?

I'm glad you like Prince Eric and it always irked me when people have neglected him at the expense of the Beast (even Disney themselves have done that). Perhaps Eric may be bland and boring, but he has good sides that makes up for it. I also happen to like Aladdin as well, who has a real personality and is not as bland as people wants him to be.


Cinderella gets the most flack because she's the most high-profile princess. Out of the classic three, she's usually touted as the strongest and most developed but casual fans only regard her as the blonde bimbo best known for her castle in the Disney Parks. Snow White, I'd say, also has a personality but she's just more of an acquired taste, in part because she's so influenced by her era and it hasn't aged as well as some of the others.

I don't really see Tangled as darker though. TPATF has all the voodoo scenes plus one of the sidekick characters actually dies. The only scene that I find especially dark in tone in Tangled is when Gothel has Rapunzel tied up and stabs Flynn, and maybe her death scene. Otherwise, I find Tangled to be light and frivolous fun. The pub scene is a good example of that. Maybe I'm inclined to believe this because I've followed Glen Keane's initial concept which actually was darker and far more mature in terms of the story and character development. The pub thugs are utter jokes compared to the thieves of the shadowy underworld in Keane's treatment of Rapunzel (and if we're being really honest, the pub thugs are clowns regardless of who they're compared to).

I don't mind not knowing why Flynn is an orphan. I just found the entire backstory contrived and clearly created to make audiences feel something for Flynn. Otherwise he just comes off as a dirtbag thief.

A Rapunzel who has never met anybody besides Gothel and Pascal should be far more wary of the outside world, especially when she's been indoctrinated her whole life to believe that everyone is a monster or ruffian. I haven't seen the Tangled series so I can't compare her to Ariel in her own series.

One of TPATF's few strengths is its villain and there's a reason that Dr. Facilier is touted as Disney's last great classic villain. Although I quite like King Candy but he doesn't fit the Disney Villain mold very well.

Part of the reason that Enchanted bringing back hand-drawn animation wasn't as big a deal was because Disney had announced by then that they were returning to hand-drawn animation with TPATF and the plan, at least back then, was to make every other movie hand-drawn. So while Enchanted was a return, I think most fans didn't realize that this was just one of three offerings they'd be getting in the near future and that's only if you count Winnie the Pooh since lots of people don't. Not to mention that there was only a 3 year gap between Home on the Range and Enchanted. Between TPATF and Mary Poppins Returns is almost a whole decade and even if you do count Winnie the Pooh, that's still 7 whole years.

Enchanted is one of my favorite Disney films to come out since the end of the Disney Renaissance. It was a pretty big hit for Disney at the time even it's box office records pale in comparison to the Disney films that came afterwards. But that's not too different with how The Little Mermaid really didn't gross that much compared to all the Renaissance films after. But it was a big hit for the time and paved the way for all the films after, which is how I regard Enchanted. The only reason it isn't better remembered is because Disney can't do much with it anymore, otherwise I remember lots of people calling it this generation's Mary Poppins. I'd love a sequel but it seems more and more unlikely that we'll be getting one and after seeing how Wreck-It Ralph 2 was co-opted, I think it might almost be better if Enchanted doesn't become a franchise either. For all we know, the sequel will take the characters into a CGI fantasy world where all the Internet princesses from WIR2 all inhabit.

Florian is Snow White's prince and Henry is Cinderella's. I didn't realize that people call Aladdin bland. For many people, he's Disney's only developed male protagonist, since Quasi and Tarzan get forgotten a lot and most people associate Belle as the main character of BATB, not the Beast. I love Aladdin as well and he's my third favorite prince after Eric and Aladdin. I'm a bit biased towards Eric anyway since Ariel's my favorite prince and TLM my favorite film.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:11 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
Cinderella gets the most flack because she's the most high-profile princess. Out of the classic three, she's usually touted as the strongest and most developed but casual fans only regard her as the blonde bimbo best known for her castle in the Disney Parks. Snow White, I'd say, also has a personality but she's just more of an acquired taste, in part because she's so influenced by her era and it hasn't aged as well as some of the others.

I think Cinderella has a couple of moments where she displays a genuine personality, but she’s not given enough time to truly shine. What really could be seen as contradicting is that she actually is assertive enough to stand up when she’s oppressed, but she rarely does it. The only one she truly stands up to, is Lucifer. But she tries to even preach to Bruno to see his good sides (even when she’s unable to find them, hahaha :P). As the matter of fact, the live action remake of Cinderella has her even being sweeter and submissive to her stepmother, despite that she does stands up to her one moment. Certainly something to irk the naysayers :P!

Truth to be told, Snow White is in reality the epitome of a stereotype of a Disney Princess. There are certain stereotypes that a Disney Princess is labeled for, as sweetness, naiveté and perkiness. Though most of the Disney Princesses have those traits (especially Giselle, Rapunzel and Anna), Snow White is really the epitome of all those.

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I don't really see Tangled as darker though. TPATF has all the voodoo scenes plus one of the sidekick characters actually dies. The only scene that I find especially dark in tone in Tangled is when Gothel has Rapunzel tied up and stabs Flynn, and maybe her death scene. Otherwise, I find Tangled to be light and frivolous fun. The pub scene is a good example of that. Maybe I'm inclined to believe this because I've followed Glen Keane's initial concept which actually was darker and far more mature in terms of the story and character development. The pub thugs are utter jokes compared to the thieves of the shadowy underworld in Keane's treatment of Rapunzel (and if we're being really honest, the pub thugs are clowns regardless of who they're compared to).

OK, then we can agree to disagree. At least Tangled is more serious, whereas TPATF is light and frivolous fun for me, regardless of the darker stuff TPATF.

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I don't mind not knowing why Flynn is an orphan. I just found the entire backstory contrived and clearly created to make audiences feel something for Flynn. Otherwise he just comes off as a dirtbag thief.

At least for what it’s worth, Flynn Rider goes through an arc.

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A Rapunzel who has never met anybody besides Gothel and Pascal should be far more wary of the outside world, especially when she's been indoctrinated her whole life to believe that everyone is a monster or ruffian. I haven't seen the Tangled series so I can't compare her to Ariel in her own series.

Well, to be fair, Rapunzel is vary of strangers until she meets her own Kingdom.

What I meant that I find Rapunzel from her feature film comparable to Ariel in the TV series. I’ve never seen the Tangled series, due to it’s unappealing animation (though I like the theme song, though).

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One of TPATF's few strengths is its villain and there's a reason that Dr. Facilier is touted as Disney's last great classic villain. Although I quite like King Candy but he doesn't fit the Disney Villain mold very well.

Agreed. King Candy is ok and had potential, but he’s not close enough to match the truly great Disney villain. But it’s not as Disney always had great villains, though, since some films excluded them. But don’t get me wrong, I love a great Disney villain.

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Part of the reason that Enchanted bringing back hand-drawn animation wasn't as big a deal was because Disney had announced by then that they were returning to hand-drawn animation with TPATF and the plan, at least back then, was to make every other movie hand-drawn. So while Enchanted was a return, I think most fans didn't realize that this was just one of three offerings they'd be getting in the near future and that's only if you count Winnie the Pooh since lots of people don't. Not to mention that there was only a 3 year gap between Home on the Range and Enchanted. Between TPATF and Mary Poppins Returns is almost a whole decade and even if you do count Winnie the Pooh, that's still 7 whole years.

Fair enough.

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Enchanted is one of my favorite Disney films to come out since the end of the Disney Renaissance. It was a pretty big hit for Disney at the time even it's box office records pale in comparison to the Disney films that came afterwards. But that's not too different with how The Little Mermaid really didn't gross that much compared to all the Renaissance films after. But it was a big hit for the time and paved the way for all the films after, which is how I regard Enchanted. The only reason it isn't better remembered is because Disney can't do much with it anymore, otherwise I remember lots of people calling it this generation's Mary Poppins. I'd love a sequel but it seems more and more unlikely that we'll be getting one and after seeing how Wreck-It Ralph 2 was co-opted, I think it might almost be better if Enchanted doesn't become a franchise either. For all we know, the sequel will take the characters into a CGI fantasy world where all the Internet princesses from WIR2 all inhabit.

To be honest, Enchanted is a mixed bag for me. My main desire to see it was the hand drawn animation scenes, which were wonderful. Also I liked the jokes and the clever contrast between the real world and a fantasy world, which were effectively shown in the poignant moments (where Robert tells about Morgan’s mother and the Witch lures Giselle to bite the apple). The reduced screentime of them wasn’t the biggest problem, but there were many issues with Enchanted;
The film is fluffy even at it’s live action parts, which truly doesn’t suit the settings (thanks to Menken’s fluffy score). The “real” Pip is highly annoying (his animated version was better). I usually like Patrick Dempsey, but he was too grating and dour in this film. As for the love arcs, the two leads had absolutely no chemistry and their arc was contrived, spending the entire movie disagreeing and just falling in love with no question. What’s even more contrived in this love quadrangle was the pairing of Edward and Nancy (though truth to be told, they had more chemistry). Besides, it’s easy to see Giselle’s purpose in the real world, but her arc and transformation is sparse and vague (though to her credit, she does save Robert at the end). I liked Narissa and thought she was a great villain, despite how she got annoying at the very end as a dragon. The most developed of the character was Nathaniel, who went through an overt, but quite satisfying arc.

It’s pretty remarkable that it’s taken so long to get a sequel and it’s remarkable that they didn’t do it before, riding on it’s popularity.

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Florian is Snow White's prince and Henry is Cinderella's.

Oh, I didn’t know that. Where did you found that information?

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I didn't realize that people call Aladdin bland. For many people, he's Disney's only developed male protagonist, since Quasi and Tarzan get forgotten a lot and most people associate Belle as the main character of BATB, not the Beast. I love Aladdin as well and he's my third favorite prince after Eric and Aladdin. I'm a bit biased towards Eric anyway since Ariel's my favorite prince and TLM my favorite film.

Why ain’t I surprised? :P

I’ve seen several people calling Aladdin bland, but I don’t think he is. But my favorite Prince of the Revival era has been Prince Naveen, who actually burst with charisma and personality. I like both Quasimodo and Phoebus and thought they were stronger leads than both Hercules and Shang (though teenage Hercules was endearing, though). Disney leads got rarely as much praise, but I saw an increasing quality in them through the nineties. Tarzan is okay, though.

What I really find contradicting considering the protagonists in Beauty is how the documentary of the Platinum Edition cites that both title leads were equally essential, whereas the Diamond Edition and Charles Salomon’s book cites that Beast is the main lead. When in reality they could be both.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:24 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I think Cinderella has a couple of moments where she displays a genuine personality, but she’s not given enough time to truly shine. What really could be seen as contradicting is that she actually is assertive enough to stand up when she’s oppressed, but she rarely does it. The only one she truly stands up to, is Lucifer. But she tries to even preach to Bruno to see his good sides (even when she’s unable to find them, hahaha :P). As the matter of fact, the live action remake of Cinderella has her even being sweeter and submissive to her stepmother, despite that she does stands up to her one moment. Certainly something to irk the naysayers :P!

Truth to be told, Snow White is in reality the epitome of a stereotype of a Disney Princess. There are certain stereotypes that a Disney Princess is labeled for, as sweetness, naiveté and perkiness. Though most of the Disney Princesses have those traits (especially Giselle, Rapunzel and Anna), Snow White is really the epitome of all those.

OK, th
en we can agree to disagree. At least Tangled is more serious, whereas TPATF is light and frivolous fun for me, regardless of the darker stuff TPATF.

At least for what it’s worth, Flynn Rider goes through an arc.

Well, to be fair, Rapunzel is vary of strangers until she meets her own Kingdom.

What I meant that I find Rapunzel from her feature film comparable to Ariel in the TV series. I’ve never seen the Tangled series, due to it’s unappealing animation (though I like the theme song, though).

To be honest, Enchanted is a mixed bag for me. My main desire to see it was the hand drawn animation scenes, which were wonderful. Also I liked the jokes and the clever contrast between the real world and a fantasy world, which were effectively shown in the poignant moments (where Robert tells about Morgan’s mother and the Witch lures Giselle to bite the apple). The reduced screentime of them wasn’t the biggest problem, but there were many issues with Enchanted;
The film is fluffy even at it’s live action parts, which truly doesn’t suit the settings (thanks to Menken’s fluffy score). The “real” Pip is highly annoying (his animated version was better). I usually like Patrick Dempsey, but he was too grating and dour in this film. As for the love arcs, the two leads had absolutely no chemistry and their arc was contrived, spending the entire movie disagreeing and just falling in love with no question. What’s even more contrived in this love quadrangle was the pairing of Edward and Nancy (though truth to be told, they had more chemistry). Besides, it’s easy to see Giselle’s purpose in the real world, but her arc and transformation is sparse and vague (though to her credit, she does save Robert at the end). I liked Narissa and thought she was a great villain, despite how she got annoying at the very end as a dragon. The most developed of the character was Nathaniel, who went through an overt, but quite satisfying arc.

It’s pretty remarkable that it’s taken so long to get a sequel and it’s remarkable that they didn’t do it before, riding on it’s popularity.

Oh, I didn’t know that. Where did you found that information?

I’ve seen several people calling Aladdin bland, but I don’t think he is. But my favorite Prince of the Revival era has been Prince Naveen, who actually burst with charisma and personality. I like both Quasimodo and Phoebus and thought they were stronger leads than both Hercules and Shang (though teenage Hercules was endearing, though). Disney leads got rarely as much praise, but I saw an increasing quality in them through the nineties. Tarzan is okay, though.

What I really find contradicting considering the protagonists in Beauty is how the documentary of the Platinum Edition cites that both title leads were equally essential, whereas the Diamond Edition and Charles Salomon’s book cites that Beast is the main lead. When in reality they could be both.

I disagree that Cinderella doesn't stand up for herself enough. I think as an abuse victim, you learn when is the right time to be assertive and when you should just keep quiet. When Anastasia tells Lady Tremaine that Cinderella put a mouse in her cup as a practical joke, Cinderella tries to defend herself but she keeps getting cut off. When the invitation to the ball comes and Cinderella is laughed at for wanting to attend, she makes clear that every eligible maiden is invited. So she does have her moments. I agree that the live-action Cinderella is way more passive, almost annoyingly so in the final scene when she's just sitting in her attic despondent, but the deleted scenes explain that. I wish they had kept the one where she actually sends a letter to Kit and hopes to meet up with him. It showed that she was willing to go after her dreams.

You're right about Snow White but she was the first and basically every princess after her is based on her so I wouldn't call her a stereotype as much as model for the rest of them. Not to mention she does demonstrate a bossy and even slightly manipulative side to her so she isn't entirely Miss Pure. Either way, I make allowances for her character since she was created in a time when audiences weren't even sure if they could feel for an animated character.

I suppose the long foray into the bayou makes TPATF come off as light, especially with crude humor of Ray, Louis, and the frog hunters. But Tangled's middle act isn't tonally dissimilar with the pub thugs and Maximus and Flynn's relationship.

I mean, Naveen goes through a character arc in his movie too but I don't find it any more realistic than Flynn's emotional journey.

Rapunzel bonds with all the pub thugs and right after, she has a heart-to-heart with Flynn. Then she bonds instantly with Maximus. And for a person who's never been in a crowd of people before, she seems way too at ease in a bustling kingdom with people all around. She's never even met a child before yet she doesn't feel at all uncomfortable around them.

What makes you think that Rapunzel is more similar to Ariel from the TV series compared to Ariel from her movie?

I like Pip in both his versions, including the live-action one. I think it's cute how he's lost his voice and is forced to communicate in pantomime. Dempsey's character of Robert is meant to be jaded from living in the real world, raising a daughter alone after his wife dumps them, and being a divorce lawyer who constantly has to deal with relationships breaking up and never gets to see them being formed (or likely salvaged until Giselle comes into his life). I think their relationship was realistic or at least as realistic as a Disney relationship could be. They both rub off on each other and learn from each other. They balance each other out so Giselle becomes more worldly while Robert becomes more optimistic. Nancy is shown to be a true romantic at heart (as seen in a deleted scene) so I think Robert wouldn't have been a good fit for her. He wouldn't have been able to bring the inner romantic out of her, unlike Edward. I also liked Nathaniel which is why Lawrence from TPATF comes off as especially derivative.

I'm assuming the reason we haven't seen a sequel to Enchanted yet is because Disney hasn't been able to figure out a storyline that could continue after all the happily ever afters in the first film. There's really no where to go after the original story.

Florian comes from some Disney on Ice merchandise I believe. The name has caught on since then. Henry was the name that France used for the prince in promotion for the Diamond Edition and since then, that name has caught on as well. You can find both names and their individual histories on the Disney Wiki pages for both princes.

I don't like Naveen at all; he reminds me too much of Flynn, just an earlier iteration. I love Quasi and Phoebus as well and wish both would be more prominently promoted alongside their movie. Hercules is bland for me although I also prefer his teenage version. Shang I also find to be dull.

I consider both Belle and the Beast protagonists even if the Beast gets more development than Belle does. Most people today would identify Belle as the main character probably because she's promoted way more. It's like how on the Disney Store's website, if you look up Aladdin or Beauty and the Beast, you'll find Jasmine and Belle promoting their respective movies, not Aladdin and the Beast. Although they may have changed that since I last checked.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:55 pm 
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I disagree that Cinderella doesn't stand up for herself enough. I think as an abuse victim, you learn when is the right time to be assertive and when you should just keep quiet. When Anastasia tells Lady Tremaine that Cinderella put a mouse in her cup as a practical joke, Cinderella tries to defend herself but she keeps getting cut off. When the invitation to the ball comes and Cinderella is laughed at for wanting to attend, she makes clear that every eligible maiden is invited. So she does have her moments.

Well, then you’ve must have misunderstood me, because I never said that she didn’t stood up for herself. I said that she did, but rarely. But fair enough, you’ve otherwise right.
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I agree that the live-action Cinderella is way more passive, almost annoyingly so in the final scene when she's just sitting in her attic despondent, but the deleted scenes explain that. I wish they had kept the one where she actually sends a letter to Kit and hopes to meet up with him. It showed that she was willing to go after her dreams.

Agreed. One moment where she was rebellious and realistic was when she tried to escape from her oppression, but otherwise she was almost annoyingly perky and sweet, especially in the final ending. I know the purpose was forgiveness, but still it felt contrived and unrealistic. No offense to Lily James, who did a fairly good job. At least Tangled, though modeled after the same scene in Hunchback, was more realistic, by having Rapunzel confronting Gothel and even pushing her.

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You're right about Snow White but she was the first and basically every princess after her is based on her so I wouldn't call her a stereotype as much as model for the rest of them. Not to mention she does demonstrate a bossy and even slightly manipulative side to her so she isn't entirely Miss Pure. Either way, I make allowances for her character since she was created in a time when audiences weren't even sure if they could feel for an animated character.

Very well. She isn’t entirely Miss Pure, but she’s not far from it :P

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I mean, Naveen goes through a character arc in his movie too but I don't find it any more realistic than Flynn's emotional journey.

Fair enough, but it’s remarkable how Flynn and Naveen has essentially a similar arc. They have different purposes, but both changes for the better after having met their love interest.

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What makes you think that Rapunzel is more similar to Ariel from the TV series compared to Ariel from her movie?

At least personality-wise, I find them similar. The same warm and perky nature.

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Nancy is shown to be a true romantic at heart (as seen in a deleted scene) so I think Robert wouldn't have been a good fit for her. He wouldn't have been able to bring the inner romantic out of her, unlike Edward.

But Giselle was also a true romantic at heart, so he could’ve been with Nancy as well. But that’s just me, though. Sorry, I don’t mean to come across as condescending or something, but still.
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I also liked Nathaniel which is why Lawrence from TPATF comes off as especially derivative.

True, but what irks me about that is how Lawrence gets captured, when he’s in fact not completely evil. I think he could’ve needed redemption.

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I'm assuming the reason we haven't seen a sequel to Enchanted yet is because Disney hasn't been able to figure out a storyline that could continue after all the happily ever afters in the first film. There's really no where to go after the original story.

True, but there’s plenty you can do with the fairy tale vs. reality premise. And besides it’s a neat way to see hand drawn animation again. Though I know there are some fans of Enchanted who doesn’t want a sequel.

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Florian comes from some Disney on Ice merchandise I believe. The name has caught on since then. Henry was the name that France used for the prince in promotion for the Diamond Edition and since then, that name has caught on as well. You can find both names and their individual histories on the Disney Wiki pages for both princes.

Speaking of which, what do you think of the theories about the Beast being named Adam? There has been muddled theories about that.

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I don't like Naveen at all; he reminds me too much of Flynn, just an earlier iteration.

To be honest, I find Naveen superior to Flynn and while both of them shares quite similar attributes, they’re still different enough to distinguish them. Flynn is more snarky and sardonic in a overt way, whereas Naveen is more smooth and suave.
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I love Quasi and Phoebus as well and wish both would be more prominently promoted alongside their movie. Hercules is bland for me although I also prefer his teenage version. Shang I also find to be dull.

Great minds think alike! I think Phoebus is an especially good character and though I’ve seen praise for him, he’s a quite likable and affable lug.

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I consider both Belle and the Beast protagonists even if the Beast gets more development than Belle does.

True, but I’ve always felt that Belle has a minor arc of her own. Her growth is to see beyond the Beast’s exterior. While it’s not as overt as the Beast’s, it still counts.
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Most people today would identify Belle as the main character probably because she's promoted way more. It's like how on the Disney Store's website, if you look up Aladdin or Beauty and the Beast, you'll find Jasmine and Belle promoting their respective movies, not Aladdin and the Beast. Although they may have changed that since I last checked.

Fair enough. The Three Commentears have pointed out that the Princess franchise is one of the reasons for why Aladdin was swept aside for a while. What do you think?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:07 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Well, then you’ve must have misunderstood me, because I never said that she didn’t stood up for herself. I said that she did, but rarely. But fair enough, you’ve otherwise right.

Agreed. One moment where she was rebellious and realistic was when she tried to escape from her oppression, but otherwise she was almost annoyingly perky and sweet, especially in the final ending. I know the purpose was forgiveness, but still it felt contrived and unrealistic. No offense to Lily James, who did a fairly good job. At least Tangled, though modeled after the same scene in Hunchback, was more realistic, by having Rapunzel confronting Gothel and even pushing her.

Very well. She isn’t entirely Miss Pure, but she’s not far from it :P

Fair enough, but it’s remarkable how Flynn and Naveen has essentially a similar arc. They have different purposes, but both changes for the better after having met their love interest.

At least personality-wise, I find them similar. The same warm and perky nature.

But Giselle was also a true romantic at heart, so he could’ve been with Nancy as well. But that’s just me, though. Sorry, I don’t mean to come across as condescending or something, but still.

True, but what irks me about that is how Lawrence gets captured, when he’s in fact not completely evil. I think he could’ve needed redemption.

True, but there’s plenty you can do with the fairy tale vs. reality premise. And besides it’s a neat way to see hand drawn animation again. Though I know there are some fans of Enchanted who doesn’t want a sequel.

Speaking of which, what do you think of the theories about the Beast being named Adam? There has been muddled theories about that.

Great minds think alike! I think Phoebus is an especially good character and though I’ve seen praise for him, he’s a quite likable and affable lug.

True, but I’ve always felt that Belle has a minor arc of her own. Her growth is to see beyond the Beast’s exterior. While it’s not as overt as the Beast’s, it still counts.

Fair enough. The Three Commentears have pointed out that the Princess franchise is one of the reasons for why Aladdin was swept aside for a while. What do you think?

I don't think Cinderella standing up for herself is as rare as some people believe, but that's just me. I think what we get in the final animated film is appropriate enough to convey a character who is unhappy with her lot in life and stands up for herself when she can. Some of her more rebellious moments aren't with her stepfamily at all, like her reaction when she's woken up by the clock at the start of the movie and again when she remarks on "interrupting the music lesson."

To be fair, Lily James' character of Ella also confronts her wicked stepmother, but she isn't as aggressive about it as Rapunzel is. In part, because Rapunzel's had a life-altering revelation, whereas Cinderella is actually backed into a corner in the scene when she asks her stepmother why she treats her the way she does.

If anyone should be Miss Pure it should be Snow White ;) Ironically enough, Miss Pure was the nickname I was given in high school because I was likened to Snow White and also considered a prude. So from experience I can testify that it's certainly a fitting moniker.

I don't find Naveen or Flynn's character arcs to be very believable but I'm slightly biased because I consider them both to be cads and I don't believe the narrative that Hollywood often tries to promote in their films that there's one woman out there who is the one and thus will be able to domesticate the playboy or reform the rogue.

Warm and perky could be used to describe some of the other princesses you mentioned before as well though, like Snow White, Anna, and even Giselle.

The difference between Giselle and Nancy is that Giselle embodies romanticism whereas Nancy has hidden it deep within her. She's become just as jaded as Robert from the real world, but there's still that inner girl inside of her that dreams of something more even if she doesn't think it's realistic. Robert is able to embrace another side of himself, not because of Nancy but through Giselle (even if she does it for Nancy's sake). Nancy wasn't the woman who could bring that out of Robert because on paper she's not that different from him. Both of these NYC individuals required more fantastical characters (Giselle and Edward) to lighten them up. Nancy requires less work which is why she and Edward immediately run off together, whereas Robert takes a few days to really fall in love with Giselle. You don't come across as condescending and you're certainly entitled to your opinion about Enchanted.

Well, Lawrence is complicit in trapping Charlotte in marriage and killing her father, not to mention he didn't have the nicest plans set for Naveen either. Maybe he wasn't evil but he was a criminal. If Horace and Jasper in 101 Dalmatians can be locked up, despite Cruella being the true evil, so should Lawrence.

The only storyline I could see for an Enchanted sequel is a jump 10 years in the future (which is appropriate since it's been around that long since the previous film) where Giselle has been affected by real world living as much as anyone else, and thus lost her inner spark of fantasy. But I'm not sure how believable it would be that Giselle would ever lose herself that much. As long as the sequel doesn't ruin the characterizations of the original characters (like Wreck-It Ralph 2 seems to be doing), I'd love to see a return to Andalasia.

I'm torn in my feelings about Adam's name. The filmmakers claim that Adam was never the original name and they responded by saying that if they had given the Beast a name, they'd have given him a French name, which sounds plausible. Especially, since there's a big deal about how the Beast was never given a name in the film, so Belle has to call him Beast during the climax scene. On the other hand, Paige O'Hara claims that Disney is lying and Adam has always been the Beast's name. So I'm not sure entirely what to believe.

You're right that Naveen and Flynn aren't carbon copies, but both come across as womanizing cads to me, so I consider them cut from the same cloth.

The Broadway musical gives Belle a character arc in the song "A Change in Me" with her believing that all along she has craved for adventures and traveling the world, but at the end she confesses to her father the realization that in fact that's not what she wants anymore. As for the animated movie, I guess I never really considered Belle seeing the Beast as a person as development, in part because she seems to treat him like that after coming off the initial shock of his appearance.

Do you mean Aladdin the character or Aladdin the film?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:04 pm 
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I don't think Cinderella standing up for herself is as rare as some people believe, but that's just me. I think what we get in the final animated film is appropriate enough to convey a character who is unhappy with her lot in life and stands up for herself when she can. Some of her more rebellious moments aren't with her stepfamily at all, like her reaction when she's woken up by the clock at the start of the movie and again when she remarks on "interrupting the music lesson."

Perhaps rare isn’t the right word, but she doesn’t do it towards those who truly oppresses her. So that’s that. I wonder if there’s ever going to be a version where Cinderella gets revenge at her stepmother :P Despite that it would’ve ruined the intention of the original tale.

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To be fair, Lily James' character of Ella also confronts her wicked stepmother, but she isn't as aggressive about it as Rapunzel is. In part, because Rapunzel's had a life-altering revelation, whereas Cinderella is actually backed into a corner in the scene when she asks her stepmother why she treats her the way she does.

Yeah and I wanted to point it out as well. If we’re going to compare those scenes in both Tangled and Hunchback, at least Quasimodo pushes Frollo blatantly once, but that’s at least justified, due to how assertive and violent Frollo is (crushes his toy city), whereas Gothel is not violent towards Rapunzel, just manipulative and yet Rapunzel is violent towards her more than once.

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If anyone should be Miss Pure it should be Snow White Ironically enough, Miss Pure was the nickname I was given in high school because I was likened to Snow White and also considered a prude. So from experience I can testify that it's certainly a fitting moniker.

Really? I’m sorry to hear about it.

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I don't find Naveen or Flynn's character arcs to be very believable but I'm slightly biased because I consider them both to be cads and I don't believe the narrative that Hollywood often tries to promote in their films that there's one woman out there who is the one and thus will be able to domesticate the playboy or reform the rogue.

True, but that’s how Hollywood is, child ;) Effective storytelling is often enhanced with contrasts to make them compelling and resonant.

Speaking of which, what do you think about the comparison between John Smith and Phoebus?

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The difference between Giselle and Nancy is that Giselle embodies romanticism whereas Nancy has hidden it deep within her. She's become just as jaded as Robert from the real world, but there's still that inner girl inside of her that dreams of something more even if she doesn't think it's realistic. Robert is able to embrace another side of himself, not because of Nancy but through Giselle (even if she does it for Nancy's sake). Nancy wasn't the woman who could bring that out of Robert because on paper she's not that different from him. Both of these NYC individuals required more fantastical characters (Giselle and Edward) to lighten them up. Nancy requires less work which is why she and Edward immediately run off together, whereas Robert takes a few days to really fall in love with Giselle. You don't come across as condescending and you're certainly entitled to your opinion about Enchanted.

OK, thanks.

Alright, fair enough. That’s a way of looking at it. But that’s what I meant by saying that it’s easy to spot Giselle’s purpose in the real world, due to her mission is to mellow Robert and make him believe in her world. Whereas what Giselle’s purpose in the real world is not as made as clear, in my opinion (besides saving Robert).

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Well, Lawrence is complicit in trapping Charlotte in marriage and killing her father, not to mention he didn't have the nicest plans set for Naveen either. Maybe he wasn't evil but he was a criminal. If Horace and Jasper in 101 Dalmatians can be locked up, despite Cruella being the true evil, so should Lawrence.

OK, fair enough. I thought it was just an easy solution for a character that had more dimension that he was given credit for.

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The only storyline I could see for an Enchanted sequel is a jump 10 years in the future (which is appropriate since it's been around that long since the previous film) where Giselle has been affected by real world living as much as anyone else, and thus lost her inner spark of fantasy. But I'm not sure how believable it would be that Giselle would ever lose herself that much. As long as the sequel doesn't ruin the characterizations of the original characters (like Wreck-It Ralph 2 seems to be doing), I'd love to see a return to Andalasia.

Yeah, I’ve would’ve liked to see a sequel that was even more in-depth to the pro and cons between fantasy vs. reality, which is rarely explored in animation. And I hope there will be hand drawn animation involved.

As for Ralph Breaks the Internet, I get the notion that it’s going to make me dislike Vanellope. She was flawed in the first film (which a friend of mine pointed out, because he thought she was a Mary Sue), but at least she was somewhat likable in my opinion. In this film she seems like she’s going to be utterly selfish and therefore detestable and unappealing.

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I'm torn in my feelings about Adam's name. The filmmakers claim that Adam was never the original name and they responded by saying that if they had given the Beast a name, they'd have given him a French name, which sounds plausible. Especially, since there's a big deal about how the Beast was never given a name in the film, so Belle has to call him Beast during the climax scene. On the other hand, Paige O'Hara claims that Disney is lying and Adam has always been the Beast's name. So I'm not sure entirely what to believe.

According to The Three Commentears, Glen Keane has even stated that his name is not Adam. Though Disney haven’t confirmed it, it’s still remarkable that he’s been labeled as Adam in some merchandise. A French name does of course makes sense, but Adam would’ve been a fitting name. The directors even jokes about the non-name issue in their Audio Commentary from the film.

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You're right that Naveen and Flynn aren't carbon copies, but both come across as womanizing cads to me, so I consider them cut from the same cloth

Agreed and so do I. I used to find Flynn hot priorly, despite not precisely loving the character. Though Naveen is more overtly a womanizing cad, it’s easy to spot that Flynn’s that, too, due to his suave way of charming Rapunzel when they first meet.

It’s remarkable that Disney had two womanizing cads in a row (which wasn’t something that they duplicated in Frozen, since they were too busy turning the tropes at the head and Kristoff ended just being semi-snarky). Say whatever you want about the Disney human males in the nineties. Despite that Aladdin does have some brief interactions with other girls (and almost kisses one in A Friend Like Me, none of those males were womanizing cads (despite that it would be easy to presume that even John Smith or Phoebus could’ve been that). Heck, even Hercules never deliberately seeks out his groupies :P

Another Disney male that could’ve been seen as a cad is Peter Pan, but he’s a youth, so he’s excused :P.

What really irks me with Naveen is that he was given an Indian name, despite not having an Indian background at all. With inventing a nation, why giving him a name from a region that he’s not from?

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The Broadway musical gives Belle a character arc in the song "A Change in Me" with her believing that all along she has craved for adventures and traveling the world, but at the end she confesses to her father the realization that in fact that's not what she wants anymore. As for the animated movie, I guess I never really considered Belle seeing the Beast as a person as development, in part because she seems to treat him like that after coming off the initial shock of his appearance.

Yeah, I think the growth and depth between Belle and Beast is pretty enhanced in the Broadway musical. Say what you want about these shows, but they do fill in some gaps that they missed in the movie. Both musical versions of Hunchback do precisely that.

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Do you mean Aladdin the character or Aladdin the film?

The film.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:00 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Perhaps rare isn’t the right word, but she doesn’t do it towards those who truly oppresses her. So that’s that. I wonder if there’s ever going to be a version where Cinderella gets revenge at her stepmother :P Despite that it would’ve ruined the intention of the original tale.

Yeah and I wanted to point it out as well. If we’re going to compare those scenes in both Tangled and Hunchback, at least Quasimodo pushes Frollo blatantly once, but that’s at least justified, due to how assertive and violent Frollo is (crushes his toy city), whereas Gothel is not violent towards Rapunzel, just manipulative and yet Rapunzel is violent towards her more than once.

Really? I’m sorry to hear about it.

Speaking of which, what do you think about the comparison between John Smith and Phoebus?

Alright, fair enough. That’s a way of looking at it. But that’s what I meant by saying that it’s easy to spot Giselle’s purpose in the real world, due to her mission is to mellow Robert and make him believe in her world. Whereas what Giselle’s purpose in the real world is not as made as clear, in my opinion (besides saving Robert).

As for Ralph Breaks the Internet, I get the notion that it’s going to make me dislike Vanellope. She was flawed in the first film (which a friend of mine pointed out, because he thought she was a Mary Sue), but at least she was somewhat likable in my opinion. In this film she seems like she’s going to be utterly selfish and therefore detestable and unappealing.

According to The Three Commentears, Glen Keane has even stated that his name is not Adam. Though Disney haven’t confirmed it, it’s still remarkable that he’s been labeled as Adam in some merchandise. A French name does of course makes sense, but Adam would’ve been a fitting name. The directors even jokes about the non-name issue in their Audio Commentary from the film.

Agreed and so do I. I used to find Flynn hot priorly, despite not precisely loving the character. Though Naveen is more overtly a womanizing cad, it’s easy to spot that Flynn’s that, too, due to his suave way of charming Rapunzel when they first meet.

It’s remarkable that Disney had two womanizing cads in a row (which wasn’t something that they duplicated in Frozen, since they were too busy turning the tropes at the head and Kristoff ended just being semi-snarky). Say whatever you want about the Disney human males in the nineties. Despite that Aladdin does have some brief interactions with other girls (and almost kisses one in A Friend Like Me, none of those males were womanizing cads (despite that it would be easy to presume that even John Smith or Phoebus could’ve been that). Heck, even Hercules never deliberately seeks out his groupies :P

Another Disney male that could’ve been seen as a cad is Peter Pan, but he’s a youth, so he’s excused :P.

What really irks me with Naveen is that he was given an Indian name, despite not having an Indian background at all. With inventing a nation, why giving him a name from a region that he’s not from?

Yeah, I think the growth and depth between Belle and Beast is pretty enhanced in the Broadway musical. Say what you want about these shows, but they do fill in some gaps that they missed in the movie. Both musical versions of Hunchback do precisely that.

The film.


There are so many adaptations of Cinderella that I'm sure one day in the future we'll get a version where she does get revenge on her stepfamily. I know there have been several modern iterations of the story (A Cinderella Story, Another Cinderella Story, etc.) but even in those, I don't think the Cinderella character ever gets revenge on her stepfamily.

Not to mention the fact that Quasi is exceptionally strong and not having much physical contact with people usually, he probably isn't aware of his own strength. Rapunzel doesn't have that excuse.

Oh, I actually liked the nickname. There are certainly worse ones you can get in high school. I wore mine with pride lol.

I've often seen similarities between John Smith and Phoebus. Both are adventurus and hunky blonde captains who are older than the typical Prince Charming character. They both have a sense of humor, Phoebus, albeit, a bit more. Even their suits of armor are complementary with John Smith in silver and Phoebus in gold. Both become involved with a woman of another race and end up having to rebel against a higher authority in an act of redemption for past wrongs (more John Smith than Phoebus though presumably). Also both had high-profile actors voicing them.

I don't think I follow you exactly. You said that it's easy to spot Giselle's purpose in the real world (saving Robert) but then you said that Giselle's purpose in the real world is not made as clear. Do you mean that Giselle's purpose is about helping Robert grow, but it's unclear what her purpose to herself is?

I liked Vanellope in the first film, but I'm not too big a fan of what I've read so far from spoilers. Meanwhile, Ralph seems to have regressed back to his storyline in the first film.

I've seen Adam in some Disney Princess toys, but even at one of the Disney resorts in New Orleans. So Disney has certainly used it several times before, even in an official capacity. I'm not sure who to believe between Glen Keane and Paige O'Hara.

I do find Flynn attractive although I don't think he's the dreamboat that everyone makes him out to be. Yeah, Aladdin has a few suspicious moments in his film which I'm not too fond of but the Friend Like Me scene was animated back when the film was in one of its previous drafts so Aladdin was younger. I guess the younger version of him was meant to be a real flirt. John Smith actually comes off as really asexual in his film. I read that the real John Smith was a womanizer, or at least popular with women, although I can't see why since the real John Smith is nothing appealing to look at. As for Phoebus, he was a flirt in the book and even in the stage adaptation but the movie turns away from this depiction, which I prefer. I hate the book version of Phoebus so the further away he is from that portrayal, the better. Hercules, I suppose, is meant to still be that shy, awkward boy even though his physical body belies that.

Don't even get me started on Peter Pan lol because I've ranted about him several times before and how the Disney version is just a disservice to the original character. Whereas films like Cinderella took the best elements of the 1950s, Peter Pan took the worst, with a strict adherence to traditional gender roles.

Naveen is supposed to be a blend of different cultures. It was Disney's attempt to avoid controversy over making him either strictly white or black. Hence his Brazilian voice actor, Italian type accent, a kingdom that likely hails from the Caribbean or Mediterranean, and Indian name. Even his mother, from what I remember, is wearing what almost looks like a traditional Indian sari.

I really like the additions to the BATB and TLK musicals. I haven't seen Mary Poppins or Tarzan on stage, and I saw TLM but I don't really remember it because it was so long ago. None of the new material made an impression anyhow. Haven't seen Aladdin yet, but I know people either love the new stuff or feel it detracts from the original as the Ashman additions aren't integrated well enough. I liked some of the changes for the Hunchback musical, but I think the American version went too far. I preferred the German version, minus the fact that they kept A Guy Like You and didn't restore In a Place of Miracles. Also, I prefer Esmeralda's characterization in the American version since she's more like the animated version. The only other change I'd make was keeping Esmeralda alive, although I can see why European audiences would prefer a more tragic ending.

I've never felt that the Aladdin movie has been forgotten or neglected though. Because of Jasmine, and to a lesser extent, Genie and Jafar, it's remained in the spotlight. Aladdin, the character himself, has been especially neglected though. Jasmine usually takes his place in group shots of Disney characters and merchandise.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:15 pm 
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There are so many adaptations of Cinderella that I'm sure one day in the future we'll get a version where she does get revenge on her stepfamily. I know there have been several modern iterations of the story (A Cinderella Story, Another Cinderella Story, etc.) but even in those, I don't think the Cinderella character ever gets revenge on her stepfamily.

Most likely. Cinderella is labeled for being the most famous fairy tale in the world and existing in other regions. But there's always fanfiction who could justify the revenge issue ;)

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Not to mention the fact that Quasi is exceptionally strong and not having much physical contact with people usually, he probably isn't aware of his own strength. Rapunzel doesn't have that excuse.

True, but Quasi's ignorance about his own strength isn't a problem as his follower (*cough, Hercules, cough*). Besides, I thought it was a pity that Quasi attacked Frollo just once.
The dialogue between Rapunzel and Quasi's confrontations are strikingly similar, though Rapunzel's comment about the only one who's cruel is Gothel reasonates more, since Quasi gets mocked by the public, without any orders from Frollo (if we're going to look at it more closely, it's remarkable that Esmeralda just blames Frollo for Quasi's mockery and not the public nor the soldiers). At least everyone Rapunzel meets are friendly, whereas Frollo's theory about the cruel world is (ironically) true.

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Oh, I actually liked the nickname. There are certainly worse ones you can get in high school. I wore mine with pride lol.

OK, that's good :)

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I've often seen similarities between John Smith and Phoebus. Both are adventurus and hunky blonde captains who are older than the typical Prince Charming character. They both have a sense of humor, Phoebus, albeit, a bit more. Even their suits of armor are complementary with John Smith in silver and Phoebus in gold. Both become involved with a woman of another race and end up having to rebel against a higher authority in an act of redemption for past wrongs (more John Smith than Phoebus though presumably). Also both had high-profile actors voicing them.

Yeah, but I've noticed that people have a tendency to label John Smith and Phoebus (at least design-wise) as almost identical, despite how they have different facial features. The only thing they have in common feature-wise is how they have blond hair. Otherwise they have both much in common and both even has a similar arc. But if we're going to scrutinize it closely, Phoebus seems to have his good values all along, unlike John Smith, so it's contradictory that Phoebus doesn't decline Frollo's offer right away. At least John Smith has a clearer arc, as having a completely change of heart after meeting Pocahontas. But truth to be told, though Smith raves about fighting the Natives, at least he's more interested to explore the land.
But personally I think Phoebus is a superior character. I used to like John Smith, but now I understand why people consider him to be bland. And people seem to like Phoebus more.

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I don't think I follow you exactly. You said that it's easy to spot Giselle's purpose in the real world (saving Robert) but then you said that Giselle's purpose in the real world is not made as clear. Do you mean that Giselle's purpose is about helping Robert grow, but it's unclear what her purpose to herself is?

Exactly.

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I've seen Adam in some Disney Princess toys, but even at one of the Disney resorts in New Orleans. So Disney has certainly used it several times before, even in an official capacity. I'm not sure who to believe between Glen Keane and Paige O'Hara.

Ask Robby Benson :P But seriously, I happen to rather believe Keane, due to him being the animator.

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I do find Flynn attractive although I don't think he's the dreamboat that everyone makes him out to be. Yeah, Aladdin has a few suspicious moments in his film which I'm not too fond of but the Friend Like Me scene was animated back when the film was in one of its previous drafts so Aladdin was younger. I guess the younger version of him was meant to be a real flirt. John Smith actually comes off as really asexual in his film. I read that the real John Smith was a womanizer, or at least popular with women, although I can't see why since the real John Smith is nothing appealing to look at. As for Phoebus, he was a flirt in the book and even in the stage adaptation but the movie turns away from this depiction, which I prefer. I hate the book version of Phoebus so the further away he is from that portrayal, the better. Hercules, I suppose, is meant to still be that shy, awkward boy even though his physical body belies that.

Yeah, Aladdin has a couple of remarkable moments where he comes across as a flirt, but it's rather underplayed (fortunately).

I find it funny and contradictory that John Smith is not a flirt, due to him could've been easily labeled as a womanizing cad. He's cocky enough to be so. And not to mention that he's drop dead gorgeous, so any woman would drool over him.

And yeah, I prefer Disney's Phoebus than Phoebus from the book. Lindsay Ellis says that he's basically Gaston in the book. And if you've noticed ProfessorRatigan (one of Hunchback's biggest fans on this board) statements about practically every character in the book being unlikable, which I agree upon. But the character I truly despise from the book, is Esmeralda. Who's truly an unlikable, selfish and whiny bitch.

At least Hercules is somewhat of a first for Disney, a grown hunk with an completely innocent and doe-eyed personality. I felt that some of his adorability traits were passed on from Quasimodo, just that Herc ended up to be an inferior copy (though as aforementioned, teenage Herc is adorable).

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Don't even get me started on Peter Pan lol because I've ranted about him several times before and how the Disney version is just a disservice to the original character. Whereas films like Cinderella took the best elements of the 1950s, Peter Pan took the worst, with a strict adherence to traditional gender roles.

Yeah, I've understand the arguments against Peter Pan in the Disney version. Yet for all his rebellion and callous sides, he does have a slight arc where he does realize his necessity of Tinker Bell. Which is good. Too bad that he's not developed more, because Wendy becomes the most fully developed of the characters.

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Naveen is supposed to be a blend of different cultures. It was Disney's attempt to avoid controversy over making him either strictly white or black. Hence his Brazilian voice actor, Italian type accent, a kingdom that likely hails from the Caribbean or Mediterranean, and Indian name. Even his mother, from what I remember, is wearing what almost looks like a traditional Indian sari.

I know all about that issue.

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I really like the additions to the BATB and TLK musicals. I haven't seen Mary Poppins or Tarzan on stage, and I saw TLM but I don't really remember it because it was so long ago. None of the new material made an impression anyhow. Haven't seen Aladdin yet, but I know people either love the new stuff or feel it detracts from the original as the Ashman additions aren't integrated well enough. I liked some of the changes for the Hunchback musical, but I think the American version went too far. I preferred the German version, minus the fact that they kept A Guy Like You and didn't restore In a Place of Miracles. Also, I prefer Esmeralda's characterization in the American version since she's more like the animated version. The only other change I'd make was keeping Esmeralda alive, although I can see why European audiences would prefer a more tragic ending.

I've never seen a Disney musical on stage, so I've seen them through YouTube. Otherwise, I agree with you about Hunchback. I prefer the German one, which was more faithful to the movie and served as an expansion of it. I disliked that Disney tried to cater to Hugo's plotpoints at the expense of the animated movie and very little of these changes actually reasonated (as The Bells of Notre Dame, where Frollo's genocide of the gypsies is pretty much thrown aside and now is the insipid notion of Jehan being Quasi's father, without really being as impacting as Frollo's genocide).
I didn't completely hate the LaJolla version, since it had it's perks, but I dislike the adjustments made to songs like Top of the World. I did like Ciara Renee's Esmeralda, though, due to her likability and warmth. And about Esmeralda's death, it was a deliberate choice, due to how Europeans would perceive it as being romantic. But I still feel the death of Esmeralda never resonates, nonetheless.

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I've never felt that the Aladdin movie has been forgotten or neglected though. Because of Jasmine, and to a lesser extent, Genie and Jafar, it's remained in the spotlight. Aladdin, the character himself, has been especially neglected though. Jasmine usually takes his place in group shots of Disney characters and merchandise.

I've used to think that too, but Aladdin was the last movie to be released of the Diamond Edition line. And there has been certain complaints about fans.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:44 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
True, but Quasi's ignorance about his own strength isn't a problem as his follower (*cough, Hercules, cough*). Besides, I thought it was a pity that Quasi attacked Frollo just once.
The dialogue between Rapunzel and Quasi's confrontations are strikingly similar, though Rapunzel's comment about the only one who's cruel is Gothel reasonates more, since Quasi gets mocked by the public, without any orders from Frollo (if we're going to look at it more closely, it's remarkable that Esmeralda just blames Frollo for Quasi's mockery and not the public nor the soldiers). At least everyone Rapunzel meets are friendly, whereas Frollo's theory about the cruel world is (ironically) true.

Yeah, but I've noticed that people have a tendency to label John Smith and Phoebus (at least design-wise) as almost identical, despite how they have different facial features. The only thing they have in common feature-wise is how they have blond hair. Otherwise they have both much in common and both even has a similar arc. But if we're going to scrutinize it closely, Phoebus seems to have his good values all along, unlike John Smith, so it's contradictory that Phoebus doesn't decline Frollo's offer right away. At least John Smith has a clearer arc, as having a completely change of heart after meeting Pocahontas. But truth to be told, though Smith raves about fighting the Natives, at least he's more interested to explore the land.
But personally I think Phoebus is a superior character. I used to like John Smith, but now I understand why people consider him to be bland. And people seem to like Phoebus more.

Ask Robby Benson :P But seriously, I happen to rather believe Keane, due to him being the animator.

Yeah, Aladdin has a couple of remarkable moments where he comes across as a flirt, but it's rather underplayed (fortunately).

I find it funny and contradictory that John Smith is not a flirt, due to him could've been easily labeled as a womanizing cad. He's cocky enough to be so. And not to mention that he's drop dead gorgeous, so any woman would drool over him.

And yeah, I prefer Disney's Phoebus than Phoebus from the book. Lindsay Ellis says that he's basically Gaston in the book. And if you've noticed ProfessorRatigan (one of Hunchback's biggest fans on this board) statements about practically every character in the book being unlikable, which I agree upon. But the character I truly despise from the book, is Esmeralda. Who's truly an unlikable, selfish and whiny bitch.

At least Hercules is somewhat of a first for Disney, a grown hunk with an completely innocent and doe-eyed personality. I felt that some of his adorability traits were passed on from Quasimodo, just that Herc ended up to be an inferior copy (though as aforementioned, teenage Herc is adorable).

Yeah, I've understand the arguments against Peter Pan in the Disney version. Yet for all his rebellion and callous sides, he does have a slight arc where he does realize his necessity of Tinker Bell. Which is good. Too bad that he's not developed more, because Wendy becomes the most fully developed of the characters.


I've never seen a Disney musical on stage, so I've seen them through YouTube. Otherwise, I agree with you about Hunchback. I prefer the German one, which was more faithful to the movie and served as an expansion of it. I disliked that Disney tried to cater to Hugo's plotpoints at the expense of the animated movie and very little of these changes actually reasonated (as The Bells of Notre Dame, where Frollo's genocide of the gypsies is pretty much thrown aside and now is the insipid notion of Jehan being Quasi's father, without really being as impacting as Frollo's genocide).
I didn't completely hate the LaJolla version, since it had it's perks, but I dislike the adjustments made to songs like Top of the World. I did like Ciara Renee's Esmeralda, though, due to her likability and warmth. And about Esmeralda's death, it was a deliberate choice, due to how Europeans would perceive it as being romantic. But I still feel the death of Esmeralda never resonates, nonetheless.

I've used to think that too, but Aladdin was the last movie to be released of the Diamond Edition line. And there has been certain complaints about fans.

Esmeralda blames Frollo because he's the only one in a position of power and he has a past record of terrorizing her people. Also, his guards are the ones who start pelting fruit at Quasi (although Esmeralda was in her tent changing then so she wouldn't have seen who started it). Your comment about Rapunzel only meeting friendly people just reminds me even more of how flawed and unrealistic Tangled is.

Facially, both look completely different. John Smith has very sharp features not to mention that he's clean-shaven. Their hair styles are completely different as well. I don't think it's completely contradictory though that Phoebus doesn't decline Frollo's offer right off the bat. He's been fighting in the war for two decades and now he has a job that can grant him rest (and recreation, at least in the stage version). It's clear that he isn't pleased with how Frollo is treating people as seen in the montage where Frollo is ransacking homes for Esmeralda, but the final straw is when an innocent family is nearly killed. I think that's pretty realistic. There are lots of times that we are forced to do something we don't want to do because of a superior but it's one particular incident that really makes us break away, even if we wanted to do that way earlier.

I suppose Giselle's purpose to herself is to experience the world fully and not just be entrapped in one single emotion which is joy. That's why it's so important that she has moments where she gets angry and learns that love isn't just meeting someone and marrying the next day, but actually getting to know somebody else. In her hag form, Narissa convinces Giselle that she should eat the apple because she's experienced so much pain and this will solve all her problems, but all that pain is exactly what Giselle needed to grow as a person and truly earn her happy ending. Her real happy ending that is.

Perhaps Paige O'Hara is mistaken, having seen the Adam name used on unofficial Disney merchandise. It's strange though that Disney didn't bother to give him a new in the live-action version like they did with Cinderella's prince. For all the "plotholes" they tried to resolve, this was the most pressing one and they just flat out ignored it.

While I can see Aladdin as flirtatious, I also don't think he means much by it. I remember Musker and Clements saying that Aladdin has never had feelings for a girl before until he sees Jasmine in the marketplace and instantly falls in love with her. Considering that he's a loner, I'm not too surprised by that. His flirtatious nature is probably just because he knows it can help him survive because other girls and older women find him cute (like in the One Jump Ahead sequence. You can tell he knows the effect he has on all the female figures in the song).

We never really see John Smith with a woman besides Pocahontas but the way he treats Pocahontas doesn't ever indicate that he's a womanizer. I don't consider him particularly cocky though, as much as he's just sure of himself because he does have so much worldly experience with exploring new worlds and all. I never see him boasting to the other men on the ship besides some friendly humor and banter.

Gaston is a good example to compare book Phoebus too. Lol, I've heard some people hate book Esmeralda before, but I don't hate her. I don't really find anything about her particularly off-putting. True, she's about naive but most of us are at the beginning anyway and she's only 16. Not too different from Snow White, Aurora, Ariel, and Jasmine in that respect, who also get criticized for being naive or selfish.

Your comments on Hercules are very true and I definitely get Quasi vibes from him. You're also right that probably this is why Herc comes off looking lesser in comparison.

Even the Tinker Bell situation doesn't work for me. There's a huge explosion that can be seen from Captain Hook's ship, yet Peter remains unscathed. And he just has to say a few things to Tink to revive her all of a sudden. The emotional connection just isn't there for me. I know Walt felt that the scene where the audience has to clap and believe in fairies wouldn't work for a film, but the 2003 live-action Universal film succeeded. Also Peter's main relationship isn't supposed to be Tink, which is another thing Disney gets wrong. In the play and book, by the time Peter meets Wendy the next year, he's already forgotten all about Tink. She's died since I think fairies have a short life span and she clearly wasn't important enough for him to remember, regardless of how she felt for him. Disney should have spent more time developing Peter's relationship with Wendy, especially since the story was originally named after both of those characters, not just Peter.

I've only seen TLM and TLK in person. BATB I've missed the few times I had the opportunity to do so unfortunately. Hunchback I saw on YouTube and Anastasia I've also seen online although I plan to watch it soon. If not the NY version, then I'll catch it during the national tour. Same with Aladdin.

I didn't care much for Jehan being shoehorned into the story. It was nice that Disney tried to make more references to the novel, but as many people pointed out, people watching the Disney version expect the Disney version. Hugo purists won't be anymore won over by this version, regardless of Jehan's inclusion, Esmeralda dying, Frollo being a priest, etc. Completely agree with you on how The Bells of Notre Dame is much superior in the animated film. I'd love if Hunchback could get reworked in the U.S. and then hopefully brought to Broadway, but if I'm correct, they're actually bringing the U.S. version to Europe and getting rid of the German one altogether.

What was Top of the World like before the final iteration of it? I liked the entire cast, especially Michael Arden, Ciara Renee, and Patrick Page. I can see why they kill off Esmeralda, but I prefer the happier ending especially since even Hugo changed the ending to a happier one when he adapted his novel for other mediums.

Aladdin didn't sell very well during the Platinum line so it was rumored that Disney planned to remove it from the Diamond lineup. Hence why it got an early Blu-Ray release in Europe. However, clearly Disney ended up changing their mind, since they were planning on making it the next Diamond title after Cinderella before it was unceremoniously replaced by Peter Pan. Frankly, that made more sense since big titles like Aladdin and the other princess films have always been sold in the fall. The Diamond Edition has sold very well, one of Disney's top sellers. I can't remember the stats off the top of my head now, but I think they're located in the Blu-ray thread. The only other 2D animated films that beat it in sales were The Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Snow White, and I think maybe Sleeping Beauty. It was pretty much on par with The Little Mermaid in overall Blu-Ray sales.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Your comment about Rapunzel only meeting friendly people just reminds me even more of how flawed and unrealistic Tangled is.

Thanks, I know that I'm always right :P Just kidding.

The most unrealistic thing is how Rapunzel easily persuades the thugs in I've Got a Dream and making them nice through a single song and naively sings about her dream. I've read complains about how unrealistic that Rapunzel turned against Gothel after the revelation. But frankly the only opponents Rapunzel meets are the Stabbington Brothers, who are the antagonists anyway (but honestly, everyone would be after a hair that could make someone stay forever young).

For all the unrealism in Tangled about oppressed people, at least Frozen handled it more realistically, despite it's flaws. In some extent. At least in Elsa's case, where it showed that Elsa couldn't really control her powers in public. Anna case is different, but at least she gets to know a love interest who doesn't have her best intentions.

In reality, though Rapunzel and Quasimodo faces the same arc, at least Quasi's fate is way more grim and tragic than Rapunzel's. His mother (who was the only person who truly cared about him) gets blatantly killed and Quasi doesn't even get the girl, whereas Rapunzel gets her cake and gets to eat it too (she gets to rejoice with her loving parents and getting her love interest). But regardless of Quasi's grusome fate, I thought that he got his happy ending either way, since he got what he initially wanted all way long; Acceptance by the world outside.

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Facially, both look completely different. John Smith has very sharp features not to mention that he's clean-shaven. Their hair styles are completely different as well. I don't think it's completely contradictory though that Phoebus doesn't decline Frollo's offer right off the bat. He's been fighting in the war for two decades and now he has a job that can grant him rest (and recreation, at least in the stage version). It's clear that he isn't pleased with how Frollo is treating people as seen in the montage where Frollo is ransacking homes for Esmeralda, but the final straw is when an innocent family is nearly killed. I think that's pretty realistic. There are lots of times that we are forced to do something we don't want to do because of a superior but it's one particular incident that really makes us break away, even if we wanted to do that way earlier.

True. In reality John Smith is more classically handsome than Phoebus, who has more rougher features. But Phoebus's case could've been perceived as scrutiny, as he does nothing to not oppress against the arrested gypsies, while he risks his life to save the millers family. Something that the naysayers could've scrutinize about :P. Btw, speaking of which, it's remarkable that Hunchback got away of it's (mostly) PC-potrayal of gypsies, where the gypsies are mostly depicted as an oppressed people.

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I suppose Giselle's purpose to herself is to experience the world fully and not just be entrapped in one single emotion which is joy. That's why it's so important that she has moments where she gets angry and learns that love isn't just meeting someone and marrying the next day, but actually getting to know somebody else. In her hag form, Narissa convinces Giselle that she should eat the apple because she's experienced so much pain and this will solve all her problems, but all that pain is exactly what Giselle needed to grow as a person and truly earn her happy ending. Her real happy ending that is.

Fair enough, but Giselle's arc is still subdued and understated. It's not as overstated as other arcs in the movie.

Btw, though Giselle was supposed to be a stereotype of a Disney Princess, I thought they took it too far at times. I thought it was odd that she had never heard about anger before. It was cute on the nose, but perhaps a little too tongue in cheek.

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Perhaps Paige O'Hara is mistaken, having seen the Adam name used on unofficial Disney merchandise. It's strange though that Disney didn't bother to give him a new in the live-action version like they did with Cinderella's prince. For all the "plotholes" they tried to resolve, this was the most pressing one and they just flat out ignored it.

You know what, I've seen complains about that issue on this site! It's remarkable how Disney desperately tried to fill all the plotholes this movie has and didn't bother to give the Beast a name. But hey, it's impossible to fix every plotholes.

Besides, people have complained about how this movie fixes the plotholes which the purists didn't perceive as plotholes, but I don't mind it, since I overall liked the live action version of Beauty and the Beast, despite it's flaws.

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Gaston is a good example to compare book Phoebus too. Lol, I've heard some people hate book Esmeralda before, but I don't hate her. I don't really find anything about her particularly off-putting. True, she's about naive but most of us are at the beginning anyway and she's only 16. Not too different from Snow White, Aurora, Ariel, and Jasmine in that respect, who also get criticized for being naive or selfish..

OK, we can agree to disagree.

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Your comments on Hercules are very true and I definitely get Quasi vibes from him. You're also right that probably this is why Herc comes off looking lesser in comparison.

Thanks. I've always right ;) :P

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Even the Tinker Bell situation doesn't work for me. There's a huge explosion that can be seen from Captain Hook's ship, yet Peter remains unscathed. And he just has to say a few things to Tink to revive her all of a sudden. The emotional connection just isn't there for me. I know Walt felt that the scene where the audience has to clap and believe in fairies wouldn't work for a film, but the 2003 live-action Universal film succeeded. Also Peter's main relationship isn't supposed to be Tink, which is another thing Disney gets wrong. In the play and book, by the time Peter meets Wendy the next year, he's already forgotten all about Tink. She's died since I think fairies have a short life span and she clearly wasn't important enough for him to remember, regardless of how she felt for him. Disney should have spent more time developing Peter's relationship with Wendy, especially since the story was originally named after both of those characters, not just Peter.

What really makes the confrontation in Disney's version is how one-sided the scene is, as only Peter is able to express his thoughts. And then we cut to the pirate song, but never actually seeing Peter and Tinker Bell having somewhat a closure (despite that it could've been done better, but still). At least the problem was somewhat better sovled in the sequel, as much as I hate to admit it, because at least Wendy's daughter Jane and Tinker Bell does have a little closure after Jane I've never seen the 2003 version fully, I've just saw the first part of it on TV about ten years ago

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I've only seen TLM and TLK in person. BATB I've missed the few times I had the opportunity to do so unfortunately. Hunchback I saw on YouTube and Anastasia I've also seen online although I plan to watch it soon. If not the NY version, then I'll catch it during the national tour. Same with Aladdin.

Have you've seen the stage version of Anastasia online? Where?

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I didn't care much for Jehan being shoehorned into the story. It was nice that Disney tried to make more references to the novel, but as many people pointed out, people watching the Disney version expect the Disney version. Hugo purists won't be anymore won over by this version, regardless of Jehan's inclusion, Esmeralda dying, Frollo being a priest, etc. Completely agree with you on how The Bells of Notre Dame is much superior in the animated film. I'd love if Hunchback could get reworked in the U.S. and then hopefully brought to Broadway, but if I'm correct, they're actually bringing the U.S. version to Europe and getting rid of the German one altogether.

There's nothing wrong to include elements from Hugo's version, as long as they resonate. In LaJolla's version Hugo's elements feels shoehorned in, especially about Frollo being a priest. Since the expansions in the German version actually made the Disney version resonate more, it made perfect sense to watch the Disney version. And I'm glad you agree about the changes with The Bells of Notre Dame ;) It's almost ridiculous how they've reworked the European musical to the LaJolla version, which is not a full circle at all. What's even more odd is that there was an American stage version of Hunchback that was pretty faithful to the German version (with the exception of Phoebus being renamed) and was released the prior year to the LaJolla version.

Btw, one thing that is especially remarkable with the LaJolla version is how Quasimodo is basically more closer to the book. He comes across as even more as the stereotype of the character, but he comes across as almost autistic (not that it's a offense to it) and not the sweet, shy and endearing character that was in the Disney version.

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What was Top of the World like before the final iteration of it? I liked the entire cast, especially Michael Arden, Ciara Renee, and Patrick Page. I can see why they kill off Esmeralda, but I prefer the happier ending especially since even Hugo changed the ending to a happier one when he adapted his novel for other mediums.

I thought Top of the World was a superior song in the German version. It had a different chorus and another verse, that were superior. I liked Ciara Renee, Patrick Page and Andrew Samonsky. Michael Arden did a decent job, but personally I wasn't that impressed with him.

Quote:
Aladdin didn't sell very well during the Platinum line so it was rumored that Disney planned to remove it from the Diamond lineup. Hence why it got an early Blu-Ray release in Europe. However, clearly Disney ended up changing their mind, since they were planning on making it the next Diamond title after Cinderella before it was unceremoniously replaced by Peter Pan. Frankly, that made more sense since big titles like Aladdin and the other princess films have always been sold in the fall. The Diamond Edition has sold very well, one of Disney's top sellers. I can't remember the stats off the top of my head now, but I think they're located in the Blu-ray thread. The only other 2D animated films that beat it in sales were The Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Snow White, and I think maybe Sleeping Beauty. It was pretty much on par with The Little Mermaid in overall Blu-Ray sales.

Really? I'm impressed, due to Aladdin's popularity and how it's perceived to belong amongst the Fab Four of the actual Renaissance. At least the Platinum Edition of Aladdin was released after the ones of Beauty and The Lion King and it got good reviews. I've always got the notion that the Diamond Release was somewhat shoehorned to the death of Robin Williams, since it was released the following year. But that's just me, though.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:50 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
The most unrealistic thing is how Rapunzel easily persuades the thugs in I've Got a Dream and making them nice through a single song and naively sings about her dream. I've read complains about how unrealistic that Rapunzel turned against Gothel after the revelation. But frankly the only opponents Rapunzel meets are the Stabbington Brothers, who are the antagonists anyway (but honestly, everyone would be after a hair that could make someone stay forever young).

For all the unrealism in Tangled about oppressed people, at least Frozen handled it more realistically, despite it's flaws. In some extent. At least in Elsa's case, where it showed that Elsa couldn't really control her powers in public. Anna case is different, but at least she gets to know a love interest who doesn't have her best intentions.

In reality, though Rapunzel and Quasimodo faces the same arc, at least Quasi's fate is way more grim and tragic than Rapunzel's. His mother (who was the only person who truly cared about him) gets blatantly killed and Quasi doesn't even get the girl, whereas Rapunzel gets her cake and gets to eat it too (she gets to rejoice with her loving parents and getting her love interest). But regardless of Quasi's grusome fate, I thought that he got his happy ending either way, since he got what he initially wanted all way long; Acceptance by the world outside.

True. In reality John Smith is more classically handsome than Phoebus, who has more rougher features. But Phoebus's case could've been perceived as scrutiny, as he does nothing to not oppress against the arrested gypsies, while he risks his life to save the millers family. Something that the naysayers could've scrutinize about :P. Btw, speaking of which, it's remarkable that Hunchback got away of it's (mostly) PC-potrayal of gypsies, where the gypsies are mostly depicted as an oppressed people.

Fair enough, but Giselle's arc is still subdued and understated. It's not as overstated as other arcs in the movie.

Btw, though Giselle was supposed to be a stereotype of a Disney Princess, I thought they took it too far at times. I thought it was odd that she had never heard about anger before. It was cute on the nose, but perhaps a little too tongue in cheek.

You know what, I've seen complains about that issue on this site! It's remarkable how Disney desperately tried to fill all the plotholes this movie has and didn't bother to give the Beast a name. But hey, it's impossible to fix every plotholes.

Besides, people have complained about how this movie fixes the plotholes which the purists didn't perceive as plotholes, but I don't mind it, since I overall liked the live action version of Beauty and the Beast, despite it's flaws.

What really makes the confrontation in Disney's version is how one-sided the scene is, as only Peter is able to express his thoughts. And then we cut to the pirate song, but never actually seeing Peter and Tinker Bell having somewhat a closure (despite that it could've been done better, but still). At least the problem was somewhat better sovled in the sequel, as much as I hate to admit it, because at least Wendy's daughter Jane and Tinker Bell does have a little closure after Jane I've never seen the 2003 version fully, I've just saw the first part of it on TV about ten years ago

Have you've seen the stage version of Anastasia online? Where?

There's nothing wrong to include elements from Hugo's version, as long as they resonate. In LaJolla's version Hugo's elements feels shoehorned in, especially about Frollo being a priest. Since the expansions in the German version actually made the Disney version resonate more, it made perfect sense to watch the Disney version. And I'm glad you agree about the changes with The Bells of Notre Dame ;) It's almost ridiculous how they've reworked the European musical to the LaJolla version, which is not a full circle at all. What's even more odd is that there was an American stage version of Hunchback that was pretty faithful to the German version (with the exception of Phoebus being renamed) and was released the prior year to the LaJolla version.

Btw, one thing that is especially remarkable with the LaJolla version is how Quasimodo is basically more closer to the book. He comes across as even more as the stereotype of the character, but he comes across as almost autistic (not that it's a offense to it) and not the sweet, shy and endearing character that was in the Disney version.

I thought Top of the World was a superior song in the German version. It had a different chorus and another verse, that were superior. I liked Ciara Renee, Patrick Page and Andrew Samonsky. Michael Arden did a decent job, but personally I wasn't that impressed with him.

Really? I'm impressed, due to Aladdin's popularity and how it's perceived to belong amongst the Fab Four of the actual Renaissance. At least the Platinum Edition of Aladdin was released after the ones of Beauty and The Lion King and it got good reviews. I've always got the notion that the Diamond Release was somewhat shoehorned to the death of Robin Williams, since it was released the following year. But that's just me, though.

The Snuggly Duckling scene is one of my least favorite scenes in the film, which is saying something since I'm not fond of much anything in that film. Frozen, compared to Tangled, definitely had a more realistic take with Elsa and even Anna, although I don't think their sisterly relationship was portrayed well (and it's especially boring in all the Frozen shorts). Quasi does get the short end of the stick compared to Rapunzel, especially since his fantasy was to look normal and handsome and while Ariel and the Beast manage to transform their bodies, Quasi can't even do that. So he comes off as especially tragic if you compare him to other characters as well. Still, he does receive acceptance at the end which is something, and arguably more realistic which is fitting for one of Disney's most realistic and itty-gritty films.

You do have a point that Phoebus doesn't act to save any of the arrested Roma, but it's also possible that since he was just arresting them, he didn't think their lives were in any immediate danger. The miller's family was going to die so that's what prompts him. I think the reason that Disney never got much flack about their portrayal of the Roma was because there isn't much awareness for them in the U.S. for starters. As for in Europe, they're still very much a neglected and abused minority. Although I can't say this for sure, I don't think Europe is as politically correct as the U.S. so that might also be why there was no outcries there, unlike the U.S. with Pocahontas.

I don't think Giselle's arc is that understated, but that's just me. I do agree that it's ridiculous that she's never felt angry before in her life. Especially since even in Walt's era, we saw Cinderella get angry and even Snow White assert herself when the dwarfs haven't washed. I think the inability to feel anger was because of how audiences viewed the princesses, not from the original films, but the Disney Princess franchise which had colored (and tainted) the characters since the franchise's inception. Enchanted was released during the height of the franchise and with all the princesses assumed to be brainless bimbos who always dress everything up in pink and are constantly having tea parties, I can see why audiences would believe that Giselle (or any other princess) would never feel angry.

The live-action BATB is just fine but it isn't an overly stellar film that will bolster Disney's reputation imo. It definitely pales in comparison to the animated film and even some of Disney's other live-action remakes (Cinderella, Jungle Book). I hope Aladdin doesn't end up in the vein of their BATB. I really didn't care for pretty much most of the added material like the new songs, the backstories for Belle and the Beast, Belle's inventing skills, the "subplot" of women not being able to read in the village, and the magic book. There were somethings I really liked though like Gaston and LeFou as well as the ending where the objects die for a moment.

I'm not surprised that Tink is unable to express her thoughts considering the fact that she's supposed to be dying (not to mention that she's mute), but I agree that there's no closure to their scene. We see Peter apologize and that's it. Nothing that revives Tink and has them "hug it out" or something like that. I did like the scene better in the sequel with Jane. It's one of the only high points in the film for me. I'd recommend watching the live-action film. It's very true to the book and has great acting while still some brief homages to the Disney version. The score is to die for, especially the Flying scene. It's epic enough that Disney even loved it enough to use it in commercials for the Disney Parks lol.

I don't think Anastasia was ever posted to YouTube but check out this post here to find sources for it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Broadway/comme ... ws_online/

I didn't realize that there was an American version of Hunchback that portrayed the German version accurately before we got the new one. You said though that Phoebus had been renamed in even that version so was he Phoebus de Martin there as well? I always wondered why they changed Phoebus' last name from the book but I guess it was too difficult to pronounce. I do like the take on Quasi in the American version but it maybe differs too much for the Disney version, for better or worse. He's supposed to not only be more socially isolated, but he really comes off as different because he's partially or mostly deaf from the bells. As such he communicates in sign language.

I'll have to listen to the German version of Top of the World then. Perhaps you didn't like Arden's Quasi because you mentioned earlier that you weren't too fond on the new take on him, likening him to a stereotype of the character.

I'm not sure why Aladdin struggled in the Platinum line. I know Cinderella struggled in the Diamond line, although that doesn't surprise me too much. I don't remember now when Aladdin's Diamond Edition was announced so I'm not sure if it was only released that way because of Robin Williams' death. I do know that there was a resurgence of love for Aladdin after his passing so it wouldn't surprise me entirely.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:12 pm 
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The Snuggly Duckling scene is one of my least favorite scenes in the film, which is saying something since I'm not fond of much anything in that film.

Me too, mostly due to I've Got a Dream, which is awfully generic (and remarkably reminiscent of the Hit the Big Boss For a Raise from Dumbo (the song which the circus crew performs and spilling the beer). If you don't believe it, take a listen.

Just wondering, which movie is your favorite from the Revival era?

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Frozen, compared to Tangled, definitely had a more realistic take with Elsa and even Anna, although I don't think their sisterly relationship was portrayed well (and it's especially boring in all the Frozen shorts).

True. Their relationship is one-dimensionally and boringly potrayed in the shorts. In the movie at least their relationship is hampered by having been raised apart, but I wasn't fond of that portrayal either. In fact, their relationship was strictly one-dimensional, but mostly due to the writing in Frozen, which wasn't really the best.

In fact, my main gripe with Frozen is how Elsa gets reduced screentime, due to being a deutegoranist and how Frozen is filled with the unnecessary plotlines of Anna's quest for true love, when in fact the sisterly relationship was enough of a plotline for the movie. I'm not implying that Elsa should've been the main character, but for being the catalyst of the events, Elsa should've been given more screentime. Besides, Elsa's characterization and personality is also reduced because of her limited screentime, as her characterization is mostly based on her struggles and little else. I may sound judgemental, but I've also thought that was a big flaw in Frozen. Many people complain about the overloaded plot in The Princess and the Frog, but rarely do people complain about Frozen, who has the exact same issue.

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Quasi does get the short end of the stick compared to Rapunzel, especially since his fantasy was to look normal and handsome and while Ariel and the Beast manage to transform their bodies, Quasi can't even do that. So he comes off as especially tragic if you compare him to other characters as well. Still, he does receive acceptance at the end which is something, and arguably more realistic which is fitting for one of Disney's most realistic and itty-gritty films.

True, but turning him to a handsome was never an option for a realistic setting as Hunchback anyway. The marketing team even raved about this being a progress, though I've ever heard some rants about the crowd acceptance of Quasi being unrealistic as well. Perhaps, but not that unrealistic that it's unheard of.
In my childhood Quasi was my favorite character and therefore I definitively wanted him to get the girl, due to it being a reward for his cruel fate. But now I've come to terms with it that it's at least nice to have one Disney film that is true to life in that regard. And besides, Esmeralda was too emotionally mature for Quasi anyways.

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You do have a point that Phoebus doesn't act to save any of the arrested Roma, but it's also possible that since he was just arresting them, he didn't think their lives were in any immediate danger.

Fair enough. Though some people have criticized Phoebus for it, it's not as he enjoyed seeing Frollo doing this, due to him shaking his head in frustration.

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I think the reason that Disney never got much flack about their portrayal of the Roma was because there isn't much awareness for them in the U.S. for starters. As for in Europe, they're still very much a neglected and abused minority. Although I can't say this for sure, I don't think Europe is as politically correct as the U.S. so that might also be why there was no outcries there, unlike the U.S. with Pocahontas.

Fair enough, but I think it may have created controversy in Europe nonetheless. I remember reading a comment that Frollo demonstrating how to crush the gypsies with the ants created controversy in Netherlands.

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I don't think Giselle's arc is that understated, but that's just me. .

Yeah, that's only you :P Kidding ;) It's not as your points are unreasonable, anyways :)

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I do agree that it's ridiculous that she's never felt angry before in her life. Especially since even in Walt's era, we saw Cinderella get angry and even Snow White assert herself when the dwarfs haven't washed. I think the inability to feel anger was because of how audiences viewed the princesses, not from the original films, but the Disney Princess franchise which had colored (and tainted) the characters since the franchise's inception. Enchanted was released during the height of the franchise and with all the princesses assumed to be brainless bimbos who always dress everything up in pink and are constantly having tea parties, I can see why audiences would believe that Giselle (or any other princess) would never feel angry.

Not only ridiculous, but completely unrealistic and implausible (despite how it was funny as well).

And your comments really cites the negative perception of a Disney Princesses. I've never called them bimbo's, but as I've said earlier, there is a perception that their good qualities (perkiness, naivite and sweetness) is overplayed and therefore they have been stereotyped for it.
And yes, it's somewhat contradictory how Disney made a movie that poked fun of the Princess genre and not having her a part of the franchise, since later on Disney would rely on the lineup to introduce their Princesses (but if we're going to be technical, Giselle isn't even a Princess, she's just a commoner and that choice is also questionable, if she's a commoner, why does she so blatantly stereotype the Disney Princess qualities?).

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The live-action BATB is just fine but it isn't an overly stellar film that will bolster Disney's reputation imo. It definitely pales in comparison to the animated film and even some of Disney's other live-action remakes (Cinderella, Jungle Book). I hope Aladdin doesn't end up in the vein of their BATB. I really didn't care for pretty much most of the added material like the new songs, the backstories for Belle and the Beast, Belle's inventing skills, the "subplot" of women not being able to read in the village, and the magic book. There were somethings I really liked though like Gaston and LeFou as well as the ending where the objects die for a moment..

Well, to be honest, I thought the live action BATB did a fine job with filling the so-called plotholes people have been ranted about and it served as a smart, intelligent take. My only main gripes with it were Watson's lackluster performance as Belle (sorry for repeating myself, but that was a main gripe) and the new songs. To be honest, Evermore was fine enough, but I didn't care for Days in the Sun nor How Does a Moment Last Forever, which were both tedious and boring.

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I'm not surprised that Tink is unable to express her thoughts considering the fact that she's supposed to be dying (not to mention that she's mute), but I agree that there's no closure to their scene. We see Peter apologize and that's it. Nothing that revives Tink and has them "hug it out" or something like that.

True.

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I did like the scene better in the sequel with Jane. It's one of the only high points in the film for me..

True. While it's sparse and could've been expanded, at least it's a slight closure between Tink and Jane. Not to mention that it's a part of Jane's arc. I'm not so fond of Return to Neverland (due to it being a cheapquel, which means that they are mostly bad, duuuh), despite that it had it's perks (a good score and some nice moments). But despite how rushed the film is, at least it is a genuine arc.

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I'd recommend watching the live-action film. It's very true to the book and has great acting while still some brief homages to the Disney version. The score is to die for, especially the Flying scene. It's epic enough that Disney even loved it enough to use it in commercials for the Disney Parks lol.

OK, I'll watch it.

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I don't think Anastasia was ever posted to YouTube but check out this post here to find sources for it.

Thanks.

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I didn't realize that there was an American version of Hunchback that portrayed the German version accurately before we got the new one. You said though that Phoebus had been renamed in even that version so was he Phoebus de Martin there as well? I always wondered why they changed Phoebus' last name from the book but I guess it was too difficult to pronounce.

No, it wasn't Martin. I couldn't really catch what it was, but his name started with the letter E. But here's the first act, btw; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS2L9lceBSw&list=PL94vLxE4ww1078c6NjxY0j501oZ6ozEX3

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I do like the take on Quasi in the American version but it maybe differs too much for the Disney version, for better or worse. He's supposed to not only be more socially isolated, but he really comes off as different because he's partially or mostly deaf from the bells. As such he communicates in sign language.

Yup, that was one thing that I forgot to mention.

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I'll have to listen to the German version of Top of the World then. Perhaps you didn't like Arden's Quasi because you mentioned earlier that you weren't too fond on the new take on him, likening him to a stereotype of the character.

To be honest, it's not as I dislike Arden, but I thought they could've chosen someone else, someone who was more suitable, in my opinion. He wasn't bad with the part, but I wanted someone who was more endearing and likable than Arden, since Disney's Quasimodo is all of those things.

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I'm not sure why Aladdin struggled in the Platinum line. I know Cinderella struggled in the Diamond line, although that doesn't surprise me too much. .

Yeah, and the Diamond Edition of Cinderella didn't even had new bonus features (not that it's a reason for flopping, but still). One would normally assume that a Diamond title is superior to a Platinum, yet my main interest to buy these re-releases (besides having their movies) are the Bonus Features for a geek like myself. So the Diamond Edition have seen a slow, but steady decline in both quality and quantity of Bonus Features (but hey, that's because of the times we live in).

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I don't remember now when Aladdin's Diamond Edition was announced so I'm not sure if it was only released that way because of Robin Williams' death. I do know that there was a resurgence of love for Aladdin after his passing so it wouldn't surprise me entirely.

Me neither. The passing of Williams is a shallow and cynical suggestion, but we live in a shallow and cynical world.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Me too, mostly due to I've Got a Dream, which is awfully generic (and remarkably reminiscent of the Hit the Big Boss For a Raise from Dumbo (the song which the circus crew performs and spilling the beer). If you don't believe it, take a listen.

Just wondering, which movie is your favorite from the Revival era?

True. Their relationship is one-dimensionally and boringly potrayed in the shorts. In the movie at least their relationship is hampered by having been raised apart, but I wasn't fond of that portrayal either. In fact, their relationship was strictly one-dimensional, but mostly due to the writing in Frozen, which wasn't really the best.

In fact, my main gripe with Frozen is how Elsa gets reduced screentime, due to being a deutegoranist and how Frozen is filled with the unnecessary plotlines of Anna's quest for true love, when in fact the sisterly relationship was enough of a plotline for the movie. I'm not implying that Elsa should've been the main character, but for being the catalyst of the events, Elsa should've been given more screentime. Besides, Elsa's characterization and personality is also reduced because of her limited screentime, as her characterization is mostly based on her struggles and little else. I may sound judgemental, but I've also thought that was a big flaw in Frozen. Many people complain about the overloaded plot in The Princess and the Frog, but rarely do people complain about Frozen, who has the exact same issue.

True, but turning him to a handsome was never an option for a realistic setting as Hunchback anyway. The marketing team even raved about this being a progress, though I've ever heard some rants about the crowd acceptance of Quasi being unrealistic as well. Perhaps, but not that unrealistic that it's unheard of.
In my childhood Quasi was my favorite character and therefore I definitively wanted him to get the girl, due to it being a reward for his cruel fate. But now I've come to terms with it that it's at least nice to have one Disney film that is true to life in that regard. And besides, Esmeralda was too emotionally mature for Quasi anyways.

Fair enough, but I think it may have created controversy in Europe nonetheless. I remember reading a comment that Frollo demonstrating how to crush the gypsies with the ants created controversy in Netherlands.

Not only ridiculous, but completely unrealistic and implausible (despite how it was funny as well).

And your comments really cites the negative perception of a Disney Princesses. I've never called them bimbo's, but as I've said earlier, there is a perception that their good qualities (perkiness, naivite and sweetness) is overplayed and therefore they have been stereotyped for it.
And yes, it's somewhat contradictory how Disney made a movie that poked fun of the Princess genre and not having her a part of the franchise, since later on Disney would rely on the lineup to introduce their Princesses (but if we're going to be technical, Giselle isn't even a Princess, she's just a commoner and that choice is also questionable, if she's a commoner, why does she so blatantly stereotype the Disney Princess qualities?).

Well, to be honest, I thought the live action BATB did a fine job with filling the so-called plotholes people have been ranted about and it served as a smart, intelligent take. My only main gripes with it were Watson's lackluster performance as Belle (sorry for repeating myself, but that was a main gripe) and the new songs. To be honest, Evermore was fine enough, but I didn't care for Days in the Sun nor How Does a Moment Last Forever, which were both tedious and boring.

True. While it's sparse and could've been expanded, at least it's a slight closure between Tink and Jane. Not to mention that it's a part of Jane's arc. I'm not so fond of Return to Neverland (due to it being a cheapquel, which means that they are mostly bad, duuuh), despite that it had it's perks (a good score and some nice moments). But despite how rushed the film is, at least it is a genuine arc.

No, it wasn't Martin. I couldn't really catch what it was, but his name started with the letter E. But here's the first act, btw; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS2L9lceBSw&list=PL94vLxE4ww1078c6NjxY0j501oZ6ozEX3

To be honest, it's not as I dislike Arden, but I thought they could've chosen someone else, someone who was more suitable, in my opinion. He wasn't bad with the part, but I wanted someone who was more endearing and likable than Arden, since Disney's Quasimodo is all of those things.

Yeah, and the Diamond Edition of Cinderella didn't even had new bonus features (not that it's a reason for flopping, but still). One would normally assume that a Diamond title is superior to a Platinum, yet my main interest to buy these re-releases (besides having their movies) are the Bonus Features for a geek like myself. So the Diamond Edition have seen a slow, but steady decline in both quality and quantity of Bonus Features (but hey, that's because of the times we live in).

Me neither. The passing of Williams is a shallow and cynical suggestion, but we live in a shallow and cynical world.


I listened to the Dumbo song and I can somewhat hear the similarities between it and I've Got a Dream. However, if you hadn't mentioned it, I don't think I would have noticed the resemblance. To be honest, I never paid much attention to that Dumbo song anyway.

My favorite Revival film used to be Frozen but the past few years have mellowed my feelings on it. It has a lot of faults which detract from my love for the film, which is a pity because it has a lot going for it. I'm not fond of how they villainize finding true love in a day (literally with Hans), but then turn around and establish Kristoff and Anna as loving each other, despite the fact that they've known each other as long as Anna knew Hans, if not less. As such, I'd say that my favorite is either Wreck-It Ralph or Zootopia. Tangled I despise, Moana is generic, and Big Hero 6 I liked, but I realized that I don't care that much for it since I've barely watched it since it came out.

I find it unrealistic that Anna wouldn't hold any resentment towards Elsa throughout the film. The only team she displays that is when Elsa refuses to bless Anna and Hans' marriage, but I would have liked to see more of an emotional reaction from Anna later on. Like in the deleted song, "Life's Too Short," where the sisters are fighting. That was much more realistic than "For the First Time in Forever (Reprise)." I know Anna is an optimistic and cheerful person, but all the problems in their sisterly relationship feel sidelined.

I think most people felt that Elsa's role in the film was way too limited, and time devoted to Kristoff and the trolls could have been centered on Elsa. Especially time fleshing her out and her relationship with Anna.

I was just reading The Art of the Hunchback of Notre Dame book and it said many of the things you just said, about how progresive it was for a Disney film to have an unattractive main character who doesn't get the girl but is still lovable because of the beauty of his soul. This plus the realistic setting which really shows the grittiness of living in Paris during the Medieval period. I've heard some people on this forum complain about Hunchback's ending with the little girl. Personally, I was never offended by it, except I really hated the little girl's design. Something about it felt very off, which is ironic because Hunchback's art book has some concept art and storyboards for the ending scene and I quite like her design in that.

I hadn't heard of any controversy with Hunchback in Europe. In fact, I remember it was better received there than in the U.S. Hercules is the film I remember that didn't do so well there, especially Greece where it was essentially banned.

The princesses are definitely more than just kindness and good manners, but unfortunately that's what they are typecast as now. I wish Enchanted had been inducted into the DP franchise just so it would get more promotion and merchandise. As for why Giselle is such a Disney Princess without being a princess, I suppose the answer is that she's like Cinderella in that respect. Cinderella is also a commoner but she's described in the opening song as having the air of a queen, or being a queen. Basically she has all the dreamy princess qualities and this is why she gets to marry a prince and become a princess. Giselle is a similar case and if it hadn't been for Narissa's intervention, she'd have married a prince and then officially become a princess. But I suppose the point is that even though she didn't have the title, she carried herself like a fairy tale princess. Even if Cinderella wouldn't marry the prince, or was divorced for some reason, she'd still carry those same qualities. That's my take on it though.

I never really saw BATB as having plotholes. The winter thing never once occurred to me and I always assumed that the castle was so deeply forested away that the villagers were never really aware of it. I'm fine with the memory part of the spell though, but I didn't care for how it was revealed that Mrs. Potts' husband and Cogsworth's wife actually lived in the village. Emma Watson's performance was not particularly well done for my taste either. As for the songs, I also liked Evermore, but the others didn't do a thing for me. Wasted opportunity to use the Broadway songs and bring back Human Again.

I haven't seen Return to Neverland in a long time, but I remember being fond of it as a kid. I'm sure my opinion would change now though. I was never too fond of Jane anyway since I preferred Wendy. I also didn't care for the octopus and the lack of the mermaids. Tell me how you feel about the live-action Peter Pan. I've heard lots of people say that this is the film Disney should have made.

Thanks for posting the early American production of Hunchback. I always wanted to watch the German version but I could never find an English version of it and I guess this is the closest to that. I'll be sure to watch it now! Is the version of Top of the World in this production like the German one that you praised?

Why do you feel Arden wasn't suitable for the role of Quasi? Personally, I found him likable, as much as Tom Hulce was in the animated film. Perhaps he didn't have enough charisma in the role for you.

The Diamond Edition of Cinderella was one of the few times that I was happy Disney didn't port all the DVD bonus features over. The Platinum Edition had annoying featurettes on NFL football players or something like that which I always felt was a waste of space. I'm hoping that since Disney is starting to release some of their catalogue titles in 4K UHD, that maybe they'll start to release new bonus features and port over all the old ones. After all, the first Disney DVDs and later Blu-Rays were packed with extras.

I do remember that Aladdin made its Disney Channel premiere right after Robin Williams died. Which could have influenced its American Blu-Ray release.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Quote:
I listened to the Dumbo song and I can somewhat hear the similarities between it and I've Got a Dream. However, if you hadn't mentioned it, I don't think I would have noticed the resemblance. To be honest, I never paid much attention to that Dumbo song anyway.

Fair enough. I haven't seen Dumbo in ages, despite that it was the very first Disney film I ever saw and loved. In my childhood I tended to prefer Walt's films, actually. They spoke to me more back then and I found them more appealing due to their innocence and endearing nature. Until I saw The Lion King at it's release at the age of ten and it converted me to like the Renaissance films more. None of the other Renaissance films truly appealed to me as much as The Lion King did.

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My favorite Revival film used to be Frozen but the past few years have mellowed my feelings on it. It has a lot of faults which detract from my love for the film, which is a pity because it has a lot going for it.

Really? Were you a fan a long time? And what did you like about it?

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I'm not fond of how they villainize finding true love in a day (literally with Hans), but then turn around and establish Kristoff and Anna as loving each other, despite the fact that they've known each other as long as Anna knew Hans, if not less.

Well said! I've never thought about that one before, but you've absolutely right. But it's always irked me that they added an (contrived) love triangle for Anna, due to my aforementioned rants about Elsa and Anna's conflict being enough of a plot for the movie.

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As such, I'd say that my favorite is either Wreck-It Ralph or Zootopia. Tangled I despise, Moana is generic, and Big Hero 6 I liked, but I realized that I don't care that much for it since I've barely watched it since it came out.

Wreck-It Ralph is my favorite too, due to how it was Disney trying to do something new and it felt fresh, engaging and clever. I had a ingenious, savvy plot and likable characters. I didn't thought of it as being Pixar-esque, but rather DreamWorks-like (post-2008, when DreamWorks had more clever movies). I thought Zootopia was just meh. Big Hero 6 eventually grew on me and it has it's moments, but it never felt invigorating at the same way Ralph did. Tangled and Moana has their moments and while they're respectable additions, they felt overall meh to me. But at least Moana didn't struggle with the uneven tone that Tangled had. And don't get me started on Frozen, which is just meh.

Btw, since we've already discussed the cons of Tangled, one moment in the film that was especialy cringe-worthy is Rapunzel's realization of her identity. It just was so contrived and off putting to have the sun marks glow just to make them overtly. It felt like an insult to the audiences intelligence, because it could've been made without having making them glow. And how the camera swoops down in circles was also too much and the flashback moments were awfully blurry, even for a flashback moment. And what's with Rapunzel reviving the same moment of staring at herself with the crown in an empty, black space? I hated that scene.

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I find it unrealistic that Anna wouldn't hold any resentment towards Elsa throughout the film. The only team she displays that is when Elsa refuses to bless Anna and Hans' marriage, but I would have liked to see more of an emotional reaction from Anna later on. Like in the deleted song, "Life's Too Short," where the sisters are fighting. That was much more realistic than "For the First Time in Forever (Reprise)." I know Anna is an optimistic and cheerful person, but all the problems in their sisterly relationship feel sidelined.

Agreed. But Anna's characterization is meant to be the devoted believer to a person and Anna isn't the only archetype who's that. Though of course I agree about Anna's lack of resentment is unrealistic.

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I think most people felt that Elsa's role in the film was way too limited, and time devoted to Kristoff and the trolls could have been centered on Elsa. Especially time fleshing her out and her relationship with Anna..

I know, but I know many people who think that Elsa's limited screentime is just fine and that she shouldn't been more developed. And yes, it's true. Speaking of Kristoff, he was also one of the cons of the film. He's a quite little developed character and basically another archetype of a loner who doesn't like people and not having a reason for justifying it. Besides, since Frozen had a love quadrangle, I've read a comment that Kristoff should've ended with Elsa, due to them both being lovers who had their affection for ice :P And I agree, because they've would've made a better pairing. Besides, by having a love quadrangle, why wasting on someone who's evil?

Speaking of which, what are your thoughts about giving Elsa a girlfriend?

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I was just reading The Art of the Hunchback of Notre Dame book and it said many of the things you just said, about how progresive it was for a Disney film to have an unattractive main character who doesn't get the girl but is still lovable because of the beauty of his soul. This plus the realistic setting which really shows the grittiness of living in Paris during the Medieval period. I've heard some people on this forum complain about Hunchback's ending with the little girl. Personally, I was never offended by it, except I really hated the little girl's design. Something about it felt very off, which is ironic because Hunchback's art book has some concept art and storyboards for the ending scene and I quite like her design in that...

Lately I've found her design to be more off-putting, but her design is still not the worst of the worst. Btw, I've always liked the ending, that a little, unknown girl actually makes the first movie to bring Quasi to acceptance. I thought it was cute. Even though I saw Disney's Hunchback before being aware of it being an story that I've payed attention to before (I've had of course seen nods to the story in pop culture prior to seeing Disney's version, but I never payed attention to those before seeing Disney's version)

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I hadn't heard of any controversy with Hunchback in Europe. In fact, I remember it was better received there than in the U.S.

You know what? I happen to be a Norwegian with Latino roots, so I saw Hunchback in Latin-America the summer of 1996 prior to it being released in Norway. Hunchback created a lot of controversy in Norway, since some local distributors complained that it was too controversial and dark for kids. Hunchback didn't do well in Norway, but I've heard absolutely none of the controversy in Chile (which was the country I saw it) and it did pretty well there. But I've heard that it was a bigger hit in Europe otherwise. The directors even talks about the European success in their Audio Commentary (despite that I have a Norwegian Movie Magazine back on it's release where the directors were confronted with the controversial content)

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Hercules is the film I remember that didn't do so well there, especially Greece where it was essentially banned..

Oh, I know all about it! I remember the Norwegian press actually confirming it on it's release. But Hercules didn't do domestically either, unfortunately, though it did pretty well overseas general.

Do you like Hercules, btw?

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The princesses are definitely more than just kindness and good manners, but unfortunately that's what they are typecast as now.

There's nothing wrong that a (Disney) Princess is labeled for her kindness and such, but unfortunately it's a stock trait that stereotypes the Princesses in a negative way. In fact, Disney characters are usually labeled for being archetypes, but Disney Princesses are certainly just labeled for those traits.

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I wish Enchanted had been inducted into the DP franchise just so it would get more promotion and merchandise. As for why Giselle is such a Disney Princess without being a princess, I suppose the answer is that she's like Cinderella in that respect. Cinderella is also a commoner but she's described in the opening song as having the air of a queen, or being a queen. Basically she has all the dreamy princess qualities and this is why she gets to marry a prince and become a princess. Giselle is a similar case and if it hadn't been for Narissa's intervention, she'd have married a prince and then officially become a princess. But I suppose the point is that even though she didn't have the title, she carried herself like a fairy tale princess. Even if Cinderella wouldn't marry the prince, or was divorced for some reason, she'd still carry those same qualities. That's my take on it though.

True, but the difference is that Giselle never becomes actually married to a Prince, unlike Cinderella, Belle and Tiana (which is defintively true in the latters case, due to her position).

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I never really saw BATB as having plotholes. The winter thing never once occurred to me and I always assumed that the castle was so deeply forested away that the villagers were never really aware of it.

To be honest, that was a weird contrivance. Since the animated film occurred in the fall that merged into winter, it was contrived to have the spell casting winter over the forest and the castle. Guess they were inspired by Frozen too much :P Which is funny, since the 2017 update of Charles Salomon's The Art and Making of BATB has the creators saying of how to differentiate their live action remake from Frozen (it's true).

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I'm fine with the memory part of the spell though, but I didn't care for how it was revealed that Mrs. Potts' husband and Cogsworth's wife actually lived in the village.

In fact, I thought it was a contrived choice to have Jean being Mrs. Pott's husband and therefore making him sympathetic and redeemable.

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Wasted opportunity to use the Broadway songs and bring back Human Again.

Agreed. I've read that the original idea was to adapt the Broadway show as a musical. As for Human Again, I was lukewarm to it initially, but I've grown to love it afterwards.

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I haven't seen Return to Neverland in a long time, but I remember being fond of it as a kid. I'm sure my opinion would change now though. I was never too fond of Jane anyway since I preferred Wendy. I also didn't care for the octopus and the lack of the mermaids.

Yeah, I didn't care for Jane either, due to her being too prissy (yet's, I know it was the intention of her character, but still). My biggest grief was the lack of the Native Americans, since I never liked the mermaids. And I hated the octupus (which was the worst part of the film, those scenes of the octupus looking through his victims makes me cringe everytime).

Otherwise, I felt sorry for Wendy for all the abuse she went through in NeverLand. But despite this, it was probably a part of having her grow and evolve as a character, due to learning that growing up is about having decency and that NeverLand is not a particularly friendly places.

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Tell me how you feel about the live-action Peter Pan. I've heard lots of people say that this is the film Disney should have made.

Well, if it's a good remake that honors the original, I wouldn't mind it. And probably one that deepens the characters.

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Thanks for posting the early American production of Hunchback.

To quote the Great Maui; You're welcome. One thing that I dislike about this version, is how the speed of the opening chants of The Bells of Notre Dame is slowed down. I thought it definitively didn't suit the song, since it worked better with a normal speed.

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I always wanted to watch the German version but I could never find an English version of it and I guess this is the closest to that. I'll be sure to watch it now!

Oh, there's a German version with English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP8cM6QRkA4&t=1660s. For your service ;)

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Is the version of Top of the World in this production like the German one that you praised?

Yup. Actually. It's a pity that it was never truly transferred to the LaJolla version.

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Why do you feel Arden wasn't suitable for the role of Quasi? Personally, I found him likable, as much as Tom Hulce was in the animated film. Perhaps he didn't have enough charisma in the role for you.

Exactly.

One thing that I did like from the LaJolla version was The Tavern Song Yet I've noticed that the official soundtrack has different versions from the actual stageplay, which is certainly true in The Tavern Song.

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I'm hoping that since Disney is starting to release some of their catalogue titles in 4K UHD, that maybe they'll start to release new bonus features and port over all the old ones. After all, the first Disney DVDs and later Blu-Rays were packed with extras.

One thing that I've noticed is how Disney has a tendency of being late with home media trends, as with DVD and Blu Ray. Disney used some time before releasing all their films in DVD and Blu Ray. Perhaps it's due to the Disney Vault?

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I do remember that Aladdin made its Disney Channel premiere right after Robin Williams died. Which could have influenced its American Blu-Ray release.

Most likely. It's not strange that DC showed Aladdin in honor to Williams' death. I never bothered to check out the European Blu-Ray release, due to it's lack of new bonus features.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:13 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Fair enough. I haven't seen Dumbo in ages, despite that it was the very first Disney film I ever saw and loved. In my childhood I tended to prefer Walt's films, actually. They spoke to me more back then and I found them more appealing due to their innocence and endearing nature. Until I saw The Lion King at it's release at the age of ten and it converted me to like the Renaissance films more. None of the other Renaissance films truly appealed to me as much as The Lion King did.

Really? Were you a fan a long time? And what did you like about it?

Well said! I've never thought about that one before, but you've absolutely right. But it's always irked me that they added an (contrived) love triangle for Anna, due to my aforementioned rants about Elsa and Anna's conflict being enough of a plot for the movie.

Wreck-It Ralph is my favorite too, due to how it was Disney trying to do something new and it felt fresh, engaging and clever. I had a ingenious, savvy plot and likable characters. I didn't thought of it as being Pixar-esque, but rather DreamWorks-like (post-2008, when DreamWorks had more clever movies). I thought Zootopia was just meh. Big Hero 6 eventually grew on me and it has it's moments, but it never felt invigorating at the same way Ralph did. Tangled and Moana has their moments and while they're respectable additions, they felt overall meh to me. But at least Moana didn't struggle with the uneven tone that Tangled had. And don't get me started on Frozen, which is just meh.

Btw, since we've already discussed the cons of Tangled, one moment in the film that was especialy cringe-worthy is Rapunzel's realization of her identity. It just was so contrived and off putting to have the sun marks glow just to make them overtly. It felt like an insult to the audiences intelligence, because it could've been made without having making them glow. And how the camera swoops down in circles was also too much and the flashback moments were awfully blurry, even for a flashback moment. And what's with Rapunzel reviving the same moment of staring at herself with the crown in an empty, black space? I hated that scene.

Agreed. But Anna's characterization is meant to be the devoted believer to a person and Anna isn't the only archetype who's that. Though of course I agree about Anna's lack of resentment is unrealistic.

I know, but I know many people who think that Elsa's limited screentime is just fine and that she shouldn't been more developed. And yes, it's true. Speaking of Kristoff, he was also one of the cons of the film. He's a quite little developed character and basically another archetype of a loner who doesn't like people and not having a reason for justifying it. Besides, since Frozen had a love quadrangle, I've read a comment that Kristoff should've ended with Elsa, due to them both being lovers who had their affection for ice :P And I agree, because they've would've made a better pairing. Besides, by having a love quadrangle, why wasting on someone who's evil?

Speaking of which, what are your thoughts about giving Elsa a girlfriend?

Lately I've found her design to be more off-putting, but her design is still not the worst of the worst. Btw, I've always liked the ending, that a little, unknown girl actually makes the first movie to bring Quasi to acceptance. I thought it was cute. Even though I saw Disney's Hunchback before being aware of it being an story that I've payed attention to before (I've had of course seen nods to the story in pop culture prior to seeing Disney's version, but I never payed attention to those before seeing Disney's version)

You know what? I happen to be a Norwegian with Latino roots, so I saw Hunchback in Latin-America the summer of 1996 prior to it being released in Norway. Hunchback created a lot of controversy in Norway, since some local distributors complained that it was too controversial and dark for kids. Hunchback didn't do well in Norway, but I've heard absolutely none of the controversy in Chile (which was the country I saw it) and it did pretty well there. But I've heard that it was a bigger hit in Europe otherwise. The directors even talks about the European success in their Audio Commentary (despite that I have a Norwegian Movie Magazine back on it's release where the directors were confronted with the controversial content)

Oh, I know all about it! I remember the Norwegian press actually confirming it on it's release. But Hercules didn't do domestically either, unfortunately, though it did pretty well overseas general.

Do you like Hercules, btw?

True, but the difference is that Giselle never becomes actually married to a Prince, unlike Cinderella, Belle and Tiana (which is defintively true in the latters case, due to her position).

To be honest, that was a weird contrivance. Since the animated film occurred in the fall that merged into winter, it was contrived to have the spell casting winter over the forest and the castle. Guess they were inspired by Frozen too much :P Which is funny, since the 2017 update of Charles Salomon's The Art and Making of BATB has the creators saying of how to differentiate their live action remake from Frozen (it's true).

In fact, I thought it was a contrived choice to have Jean being Mrs. Pott's husband and therefore making him sympathetic and redeemable.

Yeah, I didn't care for Jane either, due to her being too prissy (yet's, I know it was the intention of her character, but still). My biggest grief was the lack of the Native Americans, since I never liked the mermaids. And I hated the octupus (which was the worst part of the film, those scenes of the octupus looking through his victims makes me cringe everytime).

Otherwise, I felt sorry for Wendy for all the abuse she went through in NeverLand. But despite this, it was probably a part of having her grow and evolve as a character, due to learning that growing up is about having decency and that NeverLand is not a particularly friendly places.

To quote the Great Maui; You're welcome. One thing that I dislike about this version, is how the speed of the opening chants of The Bells of Notre Dame is slowed down. I thought it definitively didn't suit the song, since it worked better with a normal speed.

Oh, there's a German version with English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP8cM6QRkA4&t=1660s. For your service ;)

Yup. Actually. It's a pity that it was never truly transferred to the LaJolla version.

One thing that I did like from the LaJolla version was The Tavern Song Yet I've noticed that the official soundtrack has different versions from the actual stageplay, which is certainly true in The Tavern Song.

One thing that I've noticed is how Disney has a tendency of being late with home media trends, as with DVD and Blu Ray. Disney used some time before releasing all their films in DVD and Blu Ray. Perhaps it's due to the Disney Vault?

I need to watch Dumbo with the Cine-Explore option one day because I started that but didn't finish it all the way through. Having been born in the late 90s, I mostly watched the Renaissance films, followed by the Walt era films. Now I love the Walt ones even more than I used to, some of them even more than some of the Renaissance films. I always liked The Lion King (it was hard not to love that film growing up in the 90s) but it was never my absolute favorite. I know even non-Disney fans tend to love this movie, which was also the case for Frozen at least before it became overhyped and toxic.

It was the first Disney film that felt like Classic Disney since Enchanted for me. I think the songs were the main selling point for me, because I had read the script about a month or two before the film came out and I wasn't a fan of it at all. I almost planned not to watch it because I was disappointed that not only was the film nothing like The Snow Queen, but also that the most interesting character, Elsa, was sidelined for another buddy comedy road trip. I thought Anna would be Rapunzel 2.0 and since I hated Rapunzel, I was not looking forward to this. But the songs turned out to be glorious and won me over like most of the world and it's easier to connect to the characters when you actually see them as part of the movie than when you just read through their lines. I think also reading the script beforehand gave me time to get over the shock of various disappointments so that I could be prepared for the actual film. Otherwise, I would have gone into the film expecting a more faithful take on the original fairy tale, Hans being the love interest rather than Kristoff, Elsa being the main character, etc. and I would have been bummed out by all that.

It also doesn't help that I actually quite liked Hans' character whereas Kristoff is too broody and unhygienic for my taste.

I never really thought of Wreck-It Ralph as Dreamworksy but maybe that's because I only saw their early films and not really any from 2008 onwards, which is the era you are referring to. I remember lots of people mistook Wreck-It Ralph as a Pixar film though since it apparently had more depth than they were used to from Disney (not to mention Brave was decidedly lacking).

Lol, I've never really had a grievance towards the scene where Rapunzel realizes her true identity. I did prefer the version in Glen Keane's script, where there's a portrait or mosaic or something of the Queen in full chainmail armor. Rapunzel and Bastion are with Xavier, the blacksmith (who you'll also recognize from Tangled: The Series) and he creates some chainmail armor that Rapunzel puts on. That's when they realize her striking resemblance to the queen and her identity would be revealed.

You're right though that Anna is the type to have unending faith in somebody she believes in, such as Elsa and even Hans.

As I mentioned above, I didn't really like Kristoff. He's really underdeveloped and he's really just there to give Anna help in climbing the mountains and to serve as a de facto love interest, which comes off as particularly regressive in a film that places such emphasis on the main heroine not requiring a romance. I agree that Kristoff and Elsa would have been better suited to each other since he's similarly a loner and also loves ice. But to be honest, I can't really see them having much in common beyond that.

I think giving Elsa a girlfriend could be risky but I also think she's Disney's best bet for a gay character. Frozen, at least it seems, is such a juggernaut that even if some countries decided to ban the movie, I feel there would be enough public backlash to stop that. Like how Russia wanted to ban the live-action BATB because of LeFou's sexuality but the film was too big for that to happen. Elsa is such an iconic and popular character now, known all over the world, that it seems she has too much staying payer to be tarnished. So while I'm sure there will be some people who will refuse to watch the movie or buy her merchandise, she's too big a character to really hurt. At least that's my take on it but I could be very wrong. Disney might not want to risk it, but if they don't risk it with Frozen and Elsa, I can't see them risking it with anything else besides lame supporting characters who just serve as comic relief (and only in their live-action films too for that matter).

I like the ending too so I don't see why people have such an issue with it. Nothing's as offensive as the old man dressed up as Cupid who serves as the ending shot for Tangled.

I'll have to listen to Hunchback's audio commentary one of these days. I'm glad that it didn't get any controversy in Chile and presumably the rest of Latin America. I wonder how the rest of the Scandinavian countries reacted to Hunchback. I've heard that Pocahontas is really big in Norway though. Apparently as popular as the Renaissance's Big 4, but you would be able to confirm that, since I've only seen one source for that.

I didn't realize Hercules did well overseas. I know it was the lowest grossing Renaissance film, save for The Rescuers Down Under, here in the U.S. I'm fond of Hercules mainly because I liked it as a kid. It has some clever moments and I like some of the characters and songs, but overall the film doesn't work for me. It's too frenetic and scrambled. I know Hades is really popular, but I never cared too much for him, and I especially don't care for him now because of James Woods. Hercules, like we've discussed before, is a tad bit on the dull side, at least when he's grown up. Phil isn't really a fav of mine and I didn't care for the take on the other Gods and Goddesses. To be honest, the art direction for this film simply didn't work for me...it was too un-Disney. I don't mind the art styles in Aladdin, Pocahontas, Sleeping Beauty, Lilo & Stitch, etc. but I really couldn't connect to it here. Especially the weird designs of the citizens of Thebes. Meg is the main highlight of the film for me, but even so, I would have preferred a more classical take on Greek Mythology. Not a Superman knock-off that was only created because Musker and Clements were blackmailed into making it so they could achieve their true dream project, Treasure Planet.

My point though was that if you disregard Giselle's lack of marriage to a prince, she fits with all the princess qualities that her predecessors are known for. I've even heard some people argue that Belle isn't a princess since unlike Cinderella, we never see her wedding, which I think is ridiculous.

Disney seems to really have a thing for cursed winters, because that was the original plan for Brave as well. In fact, if Brave had come after Frozen, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept the cursed winter just to get audiences to feel as though they were watching Frozen's spiritual sequel.

Was Mrs. Potts' husband really unsympathetic before his reveal though?

I never cared much for the Red Indians in Peter Pan so I didn't even notice their exclusion in the sequel. The Wendy of the book doesn't have nearly as hard a time in Neverland, but she still comes to the same conclusion that it's time to go when she realizes that her brothers are forgetting her parents (plus Peter stating that he'll only ever see her as a mother).

I checked out the opening of the Hunchback stage adaptation, and I agree, that the slowed down version doesn't work for me. But maybe that's just because I'm not used to hearing it at that tempo. Thanks for posting the German one with English subtitles. However, I'm glad that the American version you linked to features the Top of the World rendition that you prefer. While I could still get the difference from listening to it in German, I'd rather hear an English version to really compare it to the LaJolla one.

I actually prefer the added parts to the Tavern Song in the LaJolla stage version, compared to the soundtrack version.

I think Disney likes to stagger their releases for some sort of economic benefit, although I'm not sure what that would be. It's funny how they've moved onto a new format now even though the entire Disney canon (both animated and live-action) haven't even been fully released on Blu-Ray yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Sorry for my late reply, I've been busy lately.

JeanGreyForever wrote:
Having been born in the late 90s, I mostly watched the Renaissance films, followed by the Walt era films..

Really? So you're born in the late nineties? I was born in the mid-eighties.

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Now I love the Walt ones even more than I used to, some of them even more than some of the Renaissance films. I always liked The Lion King (it was hard not to love that film growing up in the 90s) but it was never my absolute favorite. I know even non-Disney fans tend to love this movie, which was also the case for Frozen at least before it became overhyped and toxic..

I loved The Lion King when it was first released and I saw it trice theatrically and on VHS afterwards. There was a time in my early teens that I was tired of it, since my younger brother watched it too much, but I did regard it highly in my teens. However, there was a time where my affection for the film was less, due to how it was basically liked by the majority and frankly how I found the film to be a little too po-faced and serious at times. But I realize that I still have my affection for it, nonetheless.
Either way, I thought The Lion King was waaay better than Frozen.

I've always wondered how non-Disney fans perceive Disney film, it must have been very interesting, hahahaha.

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It was the first Disney film that felt like Classic Disney since Enchanted for me. I think the songs were the main selling point for me, because I had read the script about a month or two before the film came out and I wasn't a fan of it at all. I almost planned not to watch it because I was disappointed that not only was the film nothing like The Snow Queen, but also that the most interesting character, Elsa, was sidelined for another buddy comedy road trip. I thought Anna would be Rapunzel 2.0 and since I hated Rapunzel, I was not looking forward to this. But the songs turned out to be glorious and won me over like most of the world and it's easier to connect to the characters when you actually see them as part of the movie than when you just read through their lines. I think also reading the script beforehand gave me time to get over the shock of various disappointments so that I could be prepared for the actual film. Otherwise, I would have gone into the film expecting a more faithful take on the original fairy tale, Hans being the love interest rather than Kristoff, Elsa being the main character, etc. and I would have been bummed out by all that.

Funny how you say that Frozen felt Disney since Enchanted, since both features Idina Menzel in it, though of course in a bigger role in the former, which has immortalized her. It's a shallow notion, but still.

I wasn't particularly impressed by Frozen, since it was just passable. I liked a couple of the songs (Frozen Heart, For the First Time in Forever and the overhyped anthem Let it Go), but the score itself was awfully generic. Otherwise, I thought Frozen suffered a bit from dramtic uneveness (as Tangled did). It's perhaps the darkest film of the Revival era. And also due to the aforementioned rants of Elsa.
I noticed there were a lot of anticipation of Frozen in advance, especially due to Elsa. And I've noticed that it was due to how Elsa was supposedly going to be a tragic figure in the vain of the Beast. However, despite it's limited screentime, Elsa has gained an enourmous fanbase that I've never seen for a Disney character. Either way, while it's easy to see that comparison, I felt that Elsa was not as complex as the Beast (a friend of mine used to rant about why Elsa created Marshmellow that could've easily killed Anna, though I never saw it that way). Elsa was a misunderstood heroine that overall loved her sister. But since Frozen came at a very dark period in my life, I've don't have fond memories of that film, to be honest.

I agree that Anna was a Rapunzel 2.0. and perhaps a little too much goofy, perky and over the top. But I hated the character designs for the humans in Frozen, which were awfully generic.
Oh, I remember the script being released before the movie, but I just read barely the first pages. :P

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It also doesn't help that I actually quite liked Hans' character whereas Kristoff is too broody and unhygienic for my taste.

To be honest, I thought Hans' turn was a contrived one and he was likable as a good guy, but a bland and generic villain. Kristoff was just as generic. I'm wondering if the Frozen-mania will be revived when the sequel will be released next year.

To be honest, I've enjoyed the Frozen shorts more than the actual movie. I thought they were cute and endearing.

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I never really thought of Wreck-It Ralph as Dreamworksy but maybe that's because I only saw their early films and not really any from 2008 onwards, which is the era you are referring to. I remember lots of people mistook Wreck-It Ralph as a Pixar film though since it apparently had more depth than they were used to from Disney (not to mention Brave was decidedly lacking).

Yeah, DreamWorks improved their films from 2008, where their films were being less frenetic and blatant and more savvier and story oriented, which is certainly true in Megamind's case. I remember the switch comparisons between Wreck-It-Ralph and Brave, but I never thought that Ralph was as Pixaresque as people made it out to be, despite it being the video game equivalent of Toy Story. Yet I don't think Disney lacks as much depth as opposed to Pixar.

Do you like Pixar, btw?

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You're right though that Anna is the type to have unending faith in somebody she believes in, such as Elsa and even Hans.

Woody from Toy Story is also such a archetype, who is the constant believer (on Andy).

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As I mentioned above, I didn't really like Kristoff. He's really underdeveloped and he's really just there to give Anna help in climbing the mountains and to serve as a de facto love interest, which comes off as particularly regressive in a film that places such emphasis on the main heroine not requiring a romance.

Well said! I couldn't agree more! I don't mind that there was a love interest, but if they were going to stress the notion of being progressive, they should've done that they did in Moana, which unlike Brave and Frozen, was actually progressive and threw the love interest away. Though I feel the warranting of a single heroine is contrived (due to our scrutinizing, nitpicking time), it's still a progressive choice.
It's particularly lately that I've realized how feminist the climax of Frozen is, especially in a quite overtly way.

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I think giving Elsa a girlfriend could be risky but I also think she's Disney's best bet for a gay character. Frozen, at least it seems, is such a juggernaut that even if some countries decided to ban the movie, I feel there would be enough public backlash to stop that. Like how Russia wanted to ban the live-action BATB because of LeFou's sexuality but the film was too big for that to happen. Elsa is such an iconic and popular character now, known all over the world, that it seems she has too much staying payer to be tarnished. So while I'm sure there will be some people who will refuse to watch the movie or buy her merchandise, she's too big a character to really hurt. At least that's my take on it but I could be very wrong. Disney might not want to risk it, but if they don't risk it with Frozen and Elsa, I can't see them risking it with anything else besides lame supporting characters who just serve as comic relief (and only in their live-action films too for that matter).

Well said. Though I can see that Disney would've made Elsa lesbian, it would've been a risk, due to her popularity.

I don't understand why there were so much fuzz about LeFou's sexuality, when those scenes were harmless. I know people have ranted about the ending, where he ends up with a guy, but at least that scene is vague. I found also another reference in Gaston, where Gaston and LeFou cross arms, which was at least a little overt, but at least it wasn't such a biggie to make a fuzz about.

Do you look forward to the live action version of Aladdin, btw?

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I've heard that Pocahontas is really big in Norway though. Apparently as popular as the Renaissance's Big 4, but you would be able to confirm that, since I've only seen one source for that.

Really? Where did you heard that? I've heard that Pocahontas was a success in Norway, but not as huge as it's preceeding feline movie.

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I didn't realize Hercules did well overseas. I know it was the lowest grossing Renaissance film, save for The Rescuers Down Under, here in the U.S. I'm fond of Hercules mainly because I liked it as a kid. It has some clever moments and I like some of the characters and songs, but overall the film doesn't work for me. It's too frenetic and scrambled. I know Hades is really popular, but I never cared too much for him, and I especially don't care for him now because of James Woods. Hercules, like we've discussed before, is a tad bit on the dull side, at least when he's grown up. Phil isn't really a fav of mine and I didn't care for the take on the other Gods and Goddesses. To be honest, the art direction for this film simply didn't work for me...it was too un-Disney. I don't mind the art styles in Aladdin, Pocahontas, Sleeping Beauty, Lilo & Stitch, etc. but I really couldn't connect to it here. Especially the weird designs of the citizens of Thebes. Meg is the main highlight of the film for me, but even so, I would have preferred a more classical take on Greek Mythology. Not a Superman knock-off that was only created because Musker and Clements were blackmailed into making it so they could achieve their true dream project, Treasure Planet.

I remember looking forward to Hercules and being dissapointed by it when seeing it initially. I found the film to be underwhelming, dramatically uneven and soulless. However, getting the movie on VHS got me finally loving it, but lately I've been struck by it's tone problems. My problem was that the script was predictable and the film was too sappy at times. However, the designs of the characters are a mixed bag. I thought the settings were somewhat underwhelming as well, as having too many visually dark scenes. I liked the designs of the people of Thebes, but not of the rest of the Grecian people. Otherwise, the film grew on me due to finally realizing it's strengths. And one of them is Meg, who is amazing. But I also like the score and the fun tone.

Speaking of Treasure Planet, what are your thoughts about it?

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Disney seems to really have a thing for cursed winters, because that was the original plan for Brave as well. In fact, if Brave had come after Frozen, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept the cursed winter just to get audiences to feel as though they were watching Frozen's spiritual sequel.

True, but I've still wondered if the scrapping of the cursed winter a conscious choice because of the follow-up of Frozen. However, according to the Audio Commentary, it was supposedly scrapped due to not loosing the beauty of the landscapes.

What are your thoughts about Brave?

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Was Mrs. Potts' husband really unsympathetic before his reveal though?

No, not at all. He was one of the more genuienly nicer villagers. But it was a still a contrived choice of having him being her husband. But at least I'm glad they made one of the villagers redeemable.

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I never cared much for the Red Indians in Peter Pan so I didn't even notice their exclusion in the sequel.

I could thank Pocahontas for that, since it sparked an interest in Native Americans.

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Thanks for posting the German one with English subtitles.

You're welcome.

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I actually prefer the added parts to the Tavern Song in the LaJolla stage version, compared to the soundtrack version.

Great minds think alike :)

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I think Disney likes to stagger their releases for some sort of economic benefit, although I'm not sure what that would be. It's funny how they've moved onto a new format now even though the entire Disney canon (both animated and live-action) haven't even been fully released on Blu-Ray yet.

True, but I have the feeling that Disney won't abandon the Blu-Ray format entirely yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:38 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Sorry for my late reply, I've been busy lately.

Really? So you're born in the late nineties? I was born in the mid-eighties.

I loved The Lion King when it was first released and I saw it trice theatrically and on VHS afterwards. There was a time in my early teens that I was tired of it, since my younger brother watched it too much, but I did regard it highly in my teens. However, there was a time where my affection for the film was less, due to how it was basically liked by the majority and frankly how I found the film to be a little too po-faced and serious at times. But I realize that I still have my affection for it, nonetheless.
Either way, I thought The Lion King was waaay better than Frozen.

I've always wondered how non-Disney fans perceive Disney film, it must have been very interesting, hahahaha.

Funny how you say that Frozen felt Disney since Enchanted, since both features Idina Menzel in it, though of course in a bigger role in the former, which has immortalized her. It's a shallow notion, but still.

I wasn't particularly impressed by Frozen, since it was just passable. I liked a couple of the songs (Frozen Heart, For the First Time in Forever and the overhyped anthem Let it Go), but the score itself was awfully generic. Otherwise, I thought Frozen suffered a bit from dramtic uneveness (as Tangled did). It's perhaps the darkest film of the Revival era. And also due to the aforementioned rants of Elsa.
I noticed there were a lot of anticipation of Frozen in advance, especially due to Elsa. And I've noticed that it was due to how Elsa was supposedly going to be a tragic figure in the vain of the Beast. However, despite it's limited screentime, Elsa has gained an enourmous fanbase that I've never seen for a Disney character. Either way, while it's easy to see that comparison, I felt that Elsa was not as complex as the Beast (a friend of mine used to rant about why Elsa created Marshmellow that could've easily killed Anna, though I never saw it that way). Elsa was a misunderstood heroine that overall loved her sister. But since Frozen came at a very dark period in my life, I've don't have fond memories of that film, to be honest.

I agree that Anna was a Rapunzel 2.0. and perhaps a little too much goofy, perky and over the top. But I hated the character designs for the humans in Frozen, which were awfully generic.
Oh, I remember the script being released before the movie, but I just read barely the first pages. :P

To be honest, I thought Hans' turn was a contrived one and he was likable as a good guy, but a bland and generic villain. Kristoff was just as generic. I'm wondering if the Frozen-mania will be revived when the sequel will be released next year.

To be honest, I've enjoyed the Frozen shorts more than the actual movie. I thought they were cute and endearing.

Yeah, DreamWorks improved their films from 2008, where their films were being less frenetic and blatant and more savvier and story oriented, which is certainly true in Megamind's case. I remember the switch comparisons between Wreck-It-Ralph and Brave, but I never thought that Ralph was as Pixaresque as people made it out to be, despite it being the video game equivalent of Toy Story. Yet I don't think Disney lacks as much depth as opposed to Pixar.

Do you like Pixar, btw?

Woody from Toy Story is also such a archetype, who is the constant believer (on Andy).

Well said! I couldn't agree more! I don't mind that there was a love interest, but if they were going to stress the notion of being progressive, they should've done that they did in Moana, which unlike Brave and Frozen, was actually progressive and threw the love interest away. Though I feel the warranting of a single heroine is contrived (due to our scrutinizing, nitpicking time), it's still a progressive choice.
It's particularly lately that I've realized how feminist the climax of Frozen is, especially in a quite overtly way.

Well said. Though I can see that Disney would've made Elsa lesbian, it would've been a risk, due to her popularity.

I don't understand why there were so much fuzz about LeFou's sexuality, when those scenes were harmless. I know people have ranted about the ending, where he ends up with a guy, but at least that scene is vague. I found also another reference in Gaston, where Gaston and LeFou cross arms, which was at least a little overt, but at least it wasn't such a biggie to make a fuzz about.

Do you look forward to the live action version of Aladdin, btw?

Really? Where did you heard that? I've heard that Pocahontas was a success in Norway, but not as huge as it's preceeding feline movie.

I remember looking forward to Hercules and being disappointed by it when seeing it initially. I found the film to be underwhelming, dramatically uneven and soulless. However, getting the movie on VHS got me finally loving it, but lately I've been struck by it's tone problems. My problem was that the script was predictable and the film was too sappy at times. However, the designs of the characters are a mixed bag. I thought the settings were somewhat underwhelming as well, as having too many visually dark scenes. I liked the designs of the people of Thebes, but not of the rest of the Grecian people. Otherwise, the film grew on me due to finally realizing it's strengths. And one of them is Meg, who is amazing. But I also like the score and the fun tone.

Speaking of Treasure Planet, what are your thoughts about it?

True, but I've still wondered if the scrapping of the cursed winter a conscious choice because of the follow-up of Frozen. However, according to the Audio Commentary, it was supposedly scrapped due to not loosing the beauty of the landscapes.

What are your thoughts about Brave?

No, not at all. He was one of the more genuienly nicer villagers. But it was a still a contrived choice of having him being her husband. But at least I'm glad they made one of the villagers redeemable.

I could thank Pocahontas for that, since it sparked an interest in Native Americans.

True, but I have the feeling that Disney won't abandon the Blu-Ray format entirely yet.


That's quite all right! I don't expect immediate responses, especially considering the lengths of our conversations lol.

That means you must have grown up right in the midst of the Disney Renaissance! I basically just caught the very end of it, even that, but luckily the 90s films were popular enough that their impact was still felt in those later years so it wasn't a complete loss.

That's nice that you've learned to appreciate The Lion King again. I've heard people with similar situations, where they really loved a movie, eventually distanced themselves from it as they grew up, before learning to love it again. I do have to admit though that when Frozen became such a big deal, I was very happy that it had supplanted The Lion King as the public's favorite Disney movie. After two decades of hearing every film compared to The Lion King it was quite refreshing but now it's only been a few years since Frozen has come out, and I'm already tired of every film being compared to that so clearly be careful what you wish for.

When Big Hero 6 came out, I was in my last year of high school and I had a friend who made a comment saying "who watches cartoons like that" lol. I thought that after Frozen, which was almost universally loved in my high school, that people would be more appreciative of future Disney films but clearly not. Then again, I'm not sure this girl even watched Frozen so maybe she wasn't a reliable person to get testimony from.

Ironically enough, I don't think I even knew who Idina Menzel was when I watched Enchanted. I agree that Frozen's score is completely forgettable. I can't remember any significant scene from the score alone unlike Menken's scores. I also agree that Elsa isn't nearly as complex as the Beast, which I blame on bad storytelling and frankly a lack of emphasis on Elsa's character and development. She gets treated more like a plot device at times, much like Aurora. I'm not too surprised that she blew up the way she did, with her hair, dress, song, powers, plus the way that different groups can imprint themselves onto her (those suffering from depression or other forms of mental illness, the LGBT community, etc.) I'm sure to hear that Frozen came out during a dark period in your life. I know that has a tendency to taint one's perception of anything that coincided with that period.

I hated the character designs for Frozen as well when they were first released in those posters that people kept debating the legitimacy of. Anna looked like Rapunzel 2.0 although her personality and character was more endearing to me than Rapunzel's ever was. I do think the character designs look better in the concept art, particularly when they're rendered in 2D.

I'm curious to see if Frozen's sequel will top the first or if it'll be a case like Avengers: Age of Ultron where it couldn't quite reach the heights of its predecessor. I don't mind the Frozen shorts but they all seem to have the same premise: Elsa feels guilty that she can't provide Anna with something because of her past and then sulks. Anna (and Olaf and company) have to cheer her up to save the day and then Elsa has some sort of revelation and they all celebrate. If this is what Elsa is going to be like in the sequel, constantly moping, then I'd rather her part be limited like in the first Frozen.

I'm not surprised that we both have similar views on Hans. Actually I've noticed a lot of people here really liked Hans before his villain reveal.

I never saw Megamind. It looked incredibly dull from the trailers and like typical CGI fare. I suppose I shouldn't judge the movie just from that though.

I do like Pixar, especially since I grew up in the early 2000s and most of Disney's films back then paled in comparison to the Pixar ones. However, I do think Pixar is highly overrated and I don't like the way that general audiences dismiss Disney for Pixar. As if everything good that Disney created since The Lion King is automatically Pixar. Luckily that mentality has slowly started to fade away but it still exists in many circles.

I forgot about Woody's faith in Andy. Even Nemo counts considering his unwavering faith in Dory in Finding Dory.

I forgot to mention that the ending of Frozen was another reason I especially loved it. The idea that it wasn't True Love's Kiss that saved the day but instead it was a sisterly act. Anna even notices Kristoff and he's the only one who can save her life, but she chooses to use her last few moments to rescue her sister instead. Having come right after Once Upon a Time, whose Season 1 finale ended on a similar note with True Love's Kiss being between a mother and her son, I was quite won over by this ending. However, by the time Maleficent came out a few months later, this felt overplayed and unoriginal.

I think the main controversy came because the director announced that LeFou was gay. Most people wouldn't even notice it in the film, but because attention was drawn to the issue, that's what caused an uproar. I'm not sure why Condon felt the need to promote it either. The film already had everything going for it so it wasn't like they needed to provide more promotion or another reason to convince moviegoers to come and watch this movie.

I am looking forward to Aladdin but I hope it's more in the vein of Cinderella and The Jungle Book than BATB.

TV Tropes used to say that Pocahontas was a huge deal in Norway, however I'm searching for it now, and I can't find it. I'm assuming that it turned out to be a falsehood or at least largely exagerrated so it was removed. Which I guess answers the question as to its veracity, alongside your remarks.

We seem to have similar views on Hercules then. The film is also riddled with plotholes and the TV series goes even further since Hades knows all about Hercules being alive whereas the whole premise of the film is that he doesn't (and even that never made sense considering he's the Lord of the Dead). As for Treasure Planet, I actually quite like that movie and think it's an underrated gem. I never watched it in theaters actually. It was one of the few movies of the 2000s that I missed, even though I saw The Emperor's New Groove, Dinosaur, Brother Bear, Atlantis, Chicken Little, etc. but this one really didn't interest me, despite all its promotion. I wasn't very sci-fi oriented back then so that was probably part of the problem and I think I was probably just too young to really care for an action/adventure story since Disney didn't usually make those. I think Jim is a great Disney protagonist, especially considering the "scarcity" of male ones, at least that's what Disney sometimes gets accused of. His relationship with John Silver is really well developed and I like the inclusion of Jim's daddy issues plus the song, I'm Still Here. The voice acting is incredible for pretty much the entire cast and you can tell that there was a lot of love put into every aspect of the film by the cast and crew. It really didn't deserve to bomb the way it dead. I feel similarly about John Carter a decade later, which was plagued with similar problems such as a terrible release date and hackneyed promotion. Neither of these films seem to have achieved cult classic status the way that The Nightmare Before Christmas (or even Alice in Wonderland) did, which is a pity. I've heard that John Carter at least broke box office records in Russia.

I've heard the same thing about Brave, that they didn't want to lose the beautiful landscapes, which I find plausible enough since the backgrounds are one of Brave's strengths. I also love the songs that are employed in the background. I've said before that I don't really hate Merida the way other people do, because she reminds me of some of my favorite princesses, but she's got a lot of faults still. I agree with the complaint that the women only seem so empowered and feminist because the male characters are turned into absolute buffoons. I've also noticed how ugly they all look, compared to the female characters, maybe because they wouldn't be believable as comic relief characters otherwise. The crude humor and nudity seemed out of place as well. I think the film would have been better if Brenda Chapman had been able to stay on and see her project completed to fruition, but we'll never know. The film has a lot of potential but it didn't live up to it for me. I mentioned earlier that I had been disillusioned with Disney before Frozen, and part of that was because I walked into this film expecting another Pixar classic like Toy Story 3 before it (didn't even realize Cars 2 was released in between lol), but I walked out not particularly hating the movie, but not loving it either.

Cogsworth's wife in BATB was absolutely deplorable. I didn't even know she was supposed to be his wife, but I couldn't stand her character. Every scene she came in made me detest her even more. If I remember, she's the one who spills Belle's laundry, but it's been a while so I can't remember for sure. The one thing I did like though was that women were included as part of the angry mob in BATB since the animated film keeps them sidelined to waving the men goodbye.

If I'm correct, I remember hearing that while some Native Americans weren't particularly pleased with Disney's Pocahontas, they did take comfort in the fact that some of those kids might end up taking an actual interest in Native American history after watching the movie and then choose to learn about the real Pocahontas. I know something like that was said about Anastasia, but I'm pretty sure that some Native Americans (the ones who didn't outright hate the film and its distortion of history) said something similar. Sounds like you certainly fit that bracket since Pocahontas sparked an interest in you.

Yeah, 4K UHD is very niche, much like 3D Blu-Ray before it, and some even argue that Blu-Ray is niche, at least when compared to DVD. So I don't see it being permanently supplanted by 4K UHD. By digital streaming though...


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