The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part II

Disney's Divinity · Post by **Disney's Divinity** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:41 pm

Of course I appreciate the work of artists who do rotoscoping (as well as regular live-action reference work), but to me the practice has always come off as the lip-syncing of the animated world. In fact, it irritates me even moreso to think that some modern films get criticized for not being animated as good as older films when so many older films relied on rotoscoping at times.

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:50 pm

UmbrellaFish wrote:Well, there was a reason that Disney kept the practice of rotoscopping hidden. They considered it unprofessional and unartistic, and used it only out of necessity.

And Don Bluth used it out of love for the technique? No, out of necessity of course also. He had a small newly found studio, a small budget and little time to complete the movie. And considering the circumstances he did beyond satisfying.

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:57 pm

Disney's Divinity wrote:In fact, it irritates me even moreso to think that some modern films get criticized for not being animated as good as older films when so many older films relied on rotoscoping at times.

Sorry for the double post.

In know you are talking in general but just let me clarify smt. When i pointed out the differences in animation between PatF and the Fab 4 and Anastasia i was doing just that. I did not label them as being better or worse.

UmbrellaFish · Post by **UmbrellaFish** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:02 pm

sotiris2006 wrote:
UmbrellaFish wrote:Well, there was a reason that Disney kept the practice of rotoscopping hidden. They considered it unprofessional and unartistic, and used it only out of necessity.
And Don Bluth used it out of love for the technique? No, out of necessity of course also. He had a small newly found studio, a small budget and little time to complete the movie.

I didn't mean to imply that, I love Anastasia as well.

However, Anastasia is obviously HEAVILY rotoscopped. As far as I know, Snow White was rotoscopped in only one scene. And Snow White had many more obstacles and much more pressure than Anastasia.

Do I know much about Don Bluth and his company? No. Do I think rotoscopping makes something a bad film? No. Am I an outsider voicing his outside opinion? Yes.

And in my opinion it takes some of the art out of animation.

I would however, very much like and appreciate it if you could explain more about the history of rotoscopping in Disney, and animation history overall. I am skeptical that Snow White was rotoscopped in more than one scene and that Disney is used it extensively afterwards. If you can show me some proof, away from Wikipedia, I would gladly retract everything I've said. Which FYI, is not meant to disrespect the creators and animators of Anastasia. It is a beautiful film art-wise, and a wonderful film storywise.

pap64 · Post by **pap64** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:09 pm

I admit I used to be against rotoscoped animation simply because it made the animation look more stiff in comparison to fluid animation. But then I realized that rotoscoping is a bit of a technique in itself. I love Anastasia because the rotoscoping makes the film look like a colorful live action film, and the musical numbers benefit the film greatly.

I still prefer actual hand drawn animation, but I learned to respect the technique because even the master animators of yesteryear had to use it. Human movement is a pain to translate into paper, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were some scenes that proved troublesome.

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:21 pm

UmbrellaFish wrote:However, Anastasia is obviously HEAVILY rotoscopped. As far as I know, Snow White was rotoscopped in only one scene.

Actually they've used it in every scene that features a human character besides the dwarfs.

UmbrellaFish wrote: Do I think rotoscopping makes something a bad film? No. Am I an outsider voicing his outside opinion? Yes.

No one accused you of anything. We are all just voicing our opinions and respect each other's opinion in return.

UmbrellaFish wrote:I would however, very much like and appreciate it if you could explain more about the history of rotoscopping in Disney, and animation history overall. I am skeptical that Snow White was rotoscopped in more than one scene and that Disney is used it extensively afterwards. If you can show me some proof, away from Wikipedia, I would gladly retract everything I've said.

I did post excerpts from an article about the book "Hippo in a Tutu" in the previous page that says a few things.

Here they are again:

1) "Of course, when it came to "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs," Disney did have a secret weapon: 14 year-old Majorie Belcher. Starting in 1934, this professionally trained dancer appeared in dozens of 16 mm films that the Studios artists then blew up into photostats. Which were then traced so that the movement of this film's title character would be that much more life-like, would come across as that much more believably human".

2) "Marge may been the first dancer to toil in secret for Disney (Says Belcher: 'I was sworn to secrecy about all that I did ... The words rotoscoping and tracing ... were forbidden')".

You could buy the book, I'm sure it will give you an insight on the subject. The reason that there is not so much info about Disney rotoscoping out there is because of Disney's efforts to disclose the matter.

UmbrellaFish · Post by **UmbrellaFish** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:32 pm

Actually they've used it in every scene that features a human character besides the dwarfs.

See, that's the part I find hard to believe. The only scene I have ever heard that was rotoscopped was the "Dancing with the Dwarfs" scene (LOOK, Disney, you've got your new reality show!). Maybe Deco King will stop by and confirm or deny this.

No one accused you of anything. We are all just voicing our opinions and respect each other's opinion in return.

Just pointing out that I am making these observations on an outsider's slant.

I did post excerpts from an article about the book "Hippo in a Tutu" in the previous page that says a few things.

Those quotes are rather cryptic and can be read in different ways. They say that a dancer's, Marjorie Belcher, movements were rotoscopped for the film. It doesn't specify whether it was the entire film, or just segments of the film. Which leads me to believe that Ms. Belcher's dancing was used for only one scene, which I already specified.

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:38 pm

I'm not saying its an easy thing to do, or doesn't take a lot of technique, but I'm against rotoscoping on principal alone. I agree with the sentiment that its the lip syncing of the animation world. Sure, there's a way to make it look very convincing, but its still pretty frowned upon. And I'm not sure I buy that its ever really "necessary" to do. can anyone tell me Why and when would it ever be necessary? is it to meet a deadline? if so, delay the film if you have to, be an animator and do your job the way its meant to be done, by using live action only as a reference, nothing more.

I know disney classics have done it too, and they wont get a free pass from me either.

UmbrellaFish · Post by **UmbrellaFish** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:57 pm

Kyle wrote:I'm not saying its an easy thing to do, or doesn't take a lot of technique, but I'm against rotoscoping on principal alone. I agree with the sentiment that its the lip syncing of the animation world. Sure, there's a way to make it look very convincing, but its still pretty frowned upon. And I'm not sure I buy that its ever really "necessary" to do. can anyone tell me Why and when would it ever be necessary? is it to meet a deadline? if so, delay the film if you have to, be an animator and do your job the way its meant to be done, by using live action only as a reference, nothing more.

I know disney classics have done it too, and they wont get a free pass from me either.

I agree. However, it certainly was a necessity in Snow White, to meet the deadline. If they had screwed up, you could kiss the last 74 years of animation good-bye. Today, big studios like Disney shouldn't have to resort to it, but it is understanding when a fledgling company has to use it, limitedly.

EDIT: Good God, 13 posts in a single day! I haven't been this active on UD in months.

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:10 pm

correct me if I'm wrong, but back then wasn't it Walt's philosophy to delay a film as long as it needed to be to make sure it was done right?

anyway, I never posted my thoughts about the trailer: love it. people are right when they said its more cartoony, and I wouldn't have it any other way. they could probably push it even further.

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:14 pm

I think we are getting way out of topic here. There is already a thread where we can discuss about Disney and rotoscoping.

http://www.ultimatedisney.com/forum/vie ... 33810ae5eb

UmbrellaFish · Post by **UmbrellaFish** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:14 pm

Kyle wrote:correct me if I'm wrong, but back then wasn't it Walt's philosophy to delay a film as long as it needed to be to make sure it was done right?

anyway, I never posted my thoughts about the trailer: love it. people are right when they said its more cartoony, and I wouldn't have it any other way. they could probably push it even further.

I have no idea, and if it was true, keep in mind that up to that point Disney had only made short features. An animated feature was entirely different beast. No one expected it to succeed the way it did, it had really low expectations.

I think we are getting way out of topic here. There is already a thread where we can discuss about Disney and rotoscoping.

http://www.ultimatedisney.com/forum/vie ... 33810ae5eb

I agree, I'm willing to drop it.

Hmmm...

I'm going to watch that beautiful trailer again.

Elladorine · Post by **Elladorine** » Sun May 10, 2009 9:25 pm

I was about to go off on a rant about rotoscoping but then I realized I already did in the link provided.

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Sun May 10, 2009 9:51 pm

UmbrellaFish wrote:keep in mind that up to that point Disney had only made short features. An animated feature was entirely different beast. No one expected it to succeed the way it did, it had really low expectations.

I understand that, which is why if any Disney film were to get the okay from me it would probably be that one, though I would still much prefer them to have taken their time and actually animate it.

But yeah, I'll drop it, Ive been into this already, maybe in this very thread.

time for random on topic comment: the look and color pallet reminds me of the short "one by one".

Neal · Post by **Neal** » Sun May 10, 2009 10:14 pm

I feel the exact same way and made the same comment on another forum!

Neal · Post by **Neal** » Sun May 10, 2009 10:59 pm

The Trailer Is Now On Apple In Full HD!

http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/pr ... ndthefrog/

Enjoy!

tsom · Post by **tsom** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:37 pm

I just love watching the trailer. I've probably watched it over twenty times. It's just magical.

My only qualm with it is that it gives so much away. Although, decades ago trailers were 3-5 minutes long and they pretty much gave the story away.

disneystarsfan · Post by **disneystarsfan** » Mon May 11, 2009 1:07 am

Neal wrote:The Trailer Is Now On Apple In Full HD!

http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/pr ... ndthefrog/

Enjoy!

Darn it Neal, you beat me to it.

I was just about to post the same thing to let everyone here on UD know that you can watch the trailer in 480p, 720p, or 1080p(which by the way is breathtakingly beautiful).

Thanks for posting it though!

HD-Trailers also has it in the amazing format:
http://www.hd-trailers.net/movie/princess_and_the_frog/

You can also save it to your hard drive through the website above.

Mooky · Post by **Mooky** » Mon May 11, 2009 2:08 am

)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii95 ... patf69.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii95 ... patf70.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii95 ... patf71.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii95 ... patf72.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii95 ... patf73.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii95 ... patf74.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii95 ... patf75.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii95 ... patf76.jpg

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Mon May 11, 2009 5:02 am

Thanks for the screencaps Mooky!

The trailer looks soooo good in HD it's practically orgasmic

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The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part II

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