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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:38 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Thanks. And yes, I agree that the 90's had some very well-done openings. My favorites are the ones from The Rescuers Down Under, The Lion King, Hunchback and Tarzan. And the title credits from Pocahontas are well done, despite that I've never been crazy about Virginia Company itself. Even the opening from Dinosaur is excellent, no matter what could be said about that movie.

I loved BATB's prologue the most alongside Hunchback and Tarzan. I always loved how the opening of Pocahontas starts out from a historical piece of artwork at a museum though. I still need to get around to watching Dinosaur especially since I recently saw someone make a list of their favorite Disney films on Deviantart and I was a fan of all his/her top 10 except for Dinosaur which was surprisingly on the list.

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Agreed. Though Donkey could be too much at times, he was still more endearing and likable than Mushu.

I think Donkey works for the style of comedy in Shrek so he never came off as overbearing to me. He wouldn't be a good fit in a Disney film though.

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Well, I've never been gaga for Mushu, so I don't mind. But to be fair, I wouldn't mind if he was a part of the movie either.

I think the problem with Mushu is that he would immediately take Chinese viewers out of the movie since that's exactly what happened with the animated film.

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Haha, it's tempting to compare the mermaids in Peter Pan to those in The Little Mermaid, due to the shallow fact of them all being mermaids! Yet there are a couple of them that resembles Ariel. I remember seeing Mermaid prior to Peter Pan in my childhood, though, yet I know there's been some pleas about making the mermaids from Pan their own franchise, despite that we've seen another property in Pixie Hollows (*cough, Tinker Bell, cough*).
Speaking of which, I dislike the mermaids from Pan, mostly due to how mean they are to Wendy. She's yearning to see them and they're mean to her, yet never apologizes for it. And they never reappears again to make up for it.

I've always been fascinated with mermaids so that was the main appeal of Peter Pan for me. I was very disappointed in the 2003 live-action film which I specifically watched to see the mermaids but they end up appearing onscreen for only five seconds lol. Some people speculate that Ariel's mother, Athena, came from Neverland or after she "died" from the pirate ship, she was whisked away to Neverland. You know how I feel about these theories though lol. I didn't know people wanted the Neverland mermaids to have their own franchise. Disney tried with Ariel's sisters around the time of the Platinum Edition but the merch didn't take off (and I don't blame people for not buying the stuff because the merchandise was terrible).

Yeah, I hate the mermaids in Neverland too (not design wise but personality wise). They're really terrible and unfriendly and in fact, this is one of the rare examples where they were nicer in the book. They had issues there too but they weren't as overtly malicious as in the Disney film which is strange since Disney usually sanitizes their characters. I honestly never cared for any of the Neverland characters" Tink, the mermaids, the Indians, the Pirates, and even the Lost Boys were flat and one-dimensional to me. The mermaids and Tink are incredibly unlikable characters although I do like how Disney didn't try and redeem the mermaids later on.

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Well, to be fair, I've never considered her to be a beau, despite that I know there are many who does that.

Have you seen ScarJo's latest comments about how she should be allowed to play any role, even if it's a tree lol? Clearly she feels attacked for being cast in Ghost of a Shell. It's interesting how when Emma Stone got backlash for playing a Hawaiian role in Aloha, she apologized and even said sorry about taking the role at the Golden Globes or the Oscars (I don't remember which ceremony it was).

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I was tired of Let it Go, mainly because of mere overexposure of Frozen. But I was never gaga for Frozen, anyways. As for Elsa, I'll hope that she'll get a more pivotal role in the sequel, due to her sheer popularity. Regardless of Frozen coming of the heels of it's Revival predecessors, I read some claims that people looked forward to Elsa due to her being iconic in her own right in the same vain as Tinker Bell or Maleficent. Which is fair enough.

From the trailers and all the leaked material of Frozen 2, it definitely looks like Elsa will be front and center although Anna will also be as pivotal. I'm glad Anna isn't being sidelined in favor of the more popular sister. Yes, I'd say Elsa has become as iconic as Tinker Bell and Maleficent for better or for worse.

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Which makes Hiro and Baymax's relationship even more resonant, due to him being a creation of his late brother. I thought their dynamic was touching and investable. I know several people have compared Big Hero 6 to The Iron Giant, which is after all fair.

I only saw the Iron Giant for the first time a few months ago so I can see the parallels with Big Hero 6 now. I quite enjoyed the film actually and the re-release featured a nice allusion to Tomorrowland which Brad Bird got with Disney's permission.

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What's remarkable is that he's tied in the opening to Anna and Elsa, yet he never even mentions it again later on in the movie. And yes, it's easy to label Kristoff as successor of Bastion in the original Rapunzel, but at least Bastion looked superior. In fact, all of the Glen Keane sketches looked good for Tangled.

Yeah, I always thought it was weird that Kristoff never mentions that he witnessed Elsa's family visting the trolls. There's a lot of stuff in the film which needed to be ironed out imo. I completely agree that Bastion was the far superior design compared to Kristoff. Keane did an amazing job with his Rapunzel designs and it's a pity he stepped down as director.

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After listening to the commentaries to the deleted songs on the Laserdisc, I think really the story needed a moment to celebrate the wedding after all the heavy drama. While I think that both As Long As There's a Moon and In a Place of Miracles are fine enough, without being the best songs from the picture, I think both have their cues that would've benefited from being animated. At least In a Place of Miracles had it's own resonance, since Quasi does acknowledge their friendship and sees himself as handsome.
And at least As Long As There's a Moon had Quasi almost bringing their hands together, which would've made the ending more resonant. Yet I felt an actual wedding between Esmeralda and Phoebus would be too traditional, since a wedding is a Disney stock trope and Disney were trying to break away from that.

As Long as There's a Moon featured Esmeralda and Phoebus getting married which I always felt was a super odd reaction since they should all be running away with Frollo coming soon. That's another reason I prefer In a Place of Miracles because story-wise, it flows better. However, to address your point that a wedding would have been too traditional for this film, it technically does get interrupted by Frollo so that itself is a subversion. After all, most weddings in Disney films happen at the end of the films and they're your traditional happy endings so what occurs in As Long as There's a Moon is quite unique for Disney.

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True, but let's hope that Onward is going to be better than The Good Dinosaur, which was a bizarre mess to begin with. I don't know if we've discussed that movie before, but it was just bizarre from beginning to end. Everything to it's jarringly cartoony character designs that didn't mesh with the realistic backgrounds at all, to the mismatch of the premise and to uinteresting characters and pale story, makes the movie utterly bizarre. Yet the naysayers never whined so much about that movie as they did with Cars 2 and Brave.

I hated the cartoony designs of The Good Dinosaur. They really didn't feel like they belonged to a Pixar film at all and I agree that aspects of the story were so bizarre like the hallucinogenic berries. The Lion King's most emotional scene being copied here totally didn't work since all it did was make audiences want to watch The Lion King instead. That's the worst thing a movie can do which is to reference a far superior movie which makes viewers wish they were watching that instead lol. I think The Good Dinosaur never got as much complaints as Cars 2 and Brave mainly because it was the least watched Pixar film.

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Well, those callbacks are pretty overt and obvious and to be fair, Brother Bear was greenlit after The Lion King's success, so the connection is similar to something more than one. But Brother Bear is a mashup of Pocahontas and Bambi as well, taking obvious cues from both of them.

I haven't seen Brother Bear in years so I honestly don't remember most of it. I think it was on Netflix some time back but I never had an interest even then to watch it. Home on the Range I would rewatch just to laugh at how terrible it is but Brother Bear isn't even bad enough to want to make fun of.

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Really? Okay. I thought you liked the Princess formula.

To be honest, the Princess comment in Moana hardly made any sense, since Moana wasn't technically a Princess after all. It was too meta. And all the rants about how un-Princessy (yeah, I know it's not an actual word, but nonetheless) Merida was, there was nothing truly innovative about her characterization that broke from the Princess trope. Besides, her conflict was as traditional as it would be: She had to rebel against suitors, anyways.

I love the Princess formula! I'm just not a fan of how it's been subverted and made fun of in the Revival films with the supposed new "princess" films like Tangled, Frozen, Moana, alongside Brave, Maleficent and the live-action BATB. The comment in Moana was so badly shoehorned and threw me out of the film. At least in the live-action BATB, the remark made by Emma Watson still made sense story-wise, even if her delivery couldn't have more possibly shown her disgust. If I'm correct, the makers of Brave flat out said that the character and the film was created to make an anti-princess film or something along the lines of that. The only major subversion though was Merida not marrying anyone at the end since there was no central romance in the film but it was hardly groundbreaking otherwise.

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Yeah, I meant about the four friends. That would've been a nice quadrangle.

I wish we got more information about that version of Gigantic. If nothing else, it was nice to see a Disney film that doesn't just focus on two characters but instead an ensemble cast, just to prove that Disney can make films that aren't buddy comedies.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:27 pm 
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I think the problem with Mushu is that he would immediately take Chinese viewers out of the movie since that's exactly what happened with the animated film

Fair enough. I actually like Eddie Murphy as a person and consider his work to be fine enough, yet it's headscratching why he even was casted as Mushu. He just seems miscasted due to his ethnicity, despite that he wasn't utterly terrible at the part. At least they had the rest of the cast right, though when I learned that the cast was almost all Asian-American, it reminded me shallowly of the cast that Disney did for Pocahontas (though the comparison is still somewhat fair, since both movies are about non-Caucasian female leads). Since you've remembered that I initially though Disney were going to make Mushu an actual, real-size dragon, I wondered how it would be combined if Eddie Murphy voiced a large dragon.

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I've always been fascinated with mermaids so that was the main appeal of Peter Pan for me. I was very disappointed in the 2003 live-action film which I specifically watched to see the mermaids but they end up appearing onscreen for only five seconds lol.

Okay. I don't remember so much from the 2003 version, but I thought it was meh.

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Some people speculate that Ariel's mother, Athena, came from Neverland or after she "died" from the pirate ship, she was whisked away to Neverland. You know how I feel about these theories though lol.

Oh, I've heard about those theories, but I doubt that they're true. But at least it makes sense, due to how both Peter Pan and The Little Mermaid both have mermaids. But you know, there are fans who truly believes in certain theories (*cough, Frozen-Tangled-Tarzan, theory, cough*)

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I didn't know people wanted the Neverland mermaids to have their own franchise.

I remember reading some vaguely rumors about some people wanting the mermaids to have their franchise, but I could be wrong about it, though. But hey, why not? At least they could redeem them, as they've done with Tinker Bell.

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Disney tried with Ariel's sisters around the time of the Platinum Edition but the merch didn't take off (and I don't blame people for not buying the stuff because the merchandise was terrible).

Haha, they were indeed! But not as terrible as the doll of Melody.

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Yeah, I hate the mermaids in Neverland too (not design wise but personality wise). They're really terrible and unfriendly and in fact, this is one of the rare examples where they were nicer in the book. They had issues there too but they weren't as overtly malicious as in the Disney film which is strange since Disney usually sanitizes their characters. I honestly never cared for any of the Neverland characters" Tink, the mermaids, the Indians, the Pirates, and even the Lost Boys were flat and one-dimensional to me. The mermaids and Tink are incredibly unlikable characters although I do like how Disney didn't try and redeem the mermaids later on.

Frankly, most of the characters in NeverLand are unapprochable and hostile, though to be fair, both The Lost Boys and the Natives at least mellow up through their movie. However, in my adult years I've realized that it could be a theory of growing up is to be decent, since NeverLand represents the worst behaviours of childhood. To be fair, the Natives are initially suspicious for a legit reason, whereas The Lost Boys (who I used to like in my childhood) are incredibly obnoxious, yet they're still not as malicious as either Tinker Bell, the mermaids or the pirates. Though to her credit, Tinker Bell has a slight moments where she fights a pirate, but that's not enough to redeem her.

What's really contradictory is how Mister Smee is even among the pirates when he clearly could've been a good character. But perhaps he's too dense and naive to realize it.

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Have you seen ScarJo's latest comments about how she should be allowed to play any role, even if it's a tree lol? Clearly she feels attacked for being cast in Ghost of a Shell. It's interesting how when Emma Stone got backlash for playing a Hawaiian role in Aloha, she apologized and even said sorry about taking the role at the Golden Globes or the Oscars (I don't remember which ceremony it was).

No, I haven't.

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From the trailers and all the leaked material of Frozen 2, it definitely looks like Elsa will be front and center although Anna will also be as pivotal. I'm glad Anna isn't being sidelined in favor of the more popular sister. Yes, I'd say Elsa has become as iconic as Tinker Bell and Maleficent for better or for worse.

True, but what differentiates Elsa is how she's basically not as malicious as Maleficent or Tinker Bell (despite how the previous live action version has redeemed our dear Mistress of Evil). Unlike those two, Elsa is just a misunderstood loner. Yet I bet there wouldn't have been as many complains if Anna eventually became sidelinded.

You know, I don't know if I've said this before, but I had a friend through e-mail who disliked Frozen and complained about certain points: If fear is Elsa's enemy, then why does her parents just trigger her fears? And if Elsa is afraid not to hurt Anna, why does she creates a monster of a snowman that could kill her (despite that I've never saw it like that). And he certainly complained about the ending, where "love" is suddenly the resolution to Elsa's powers and only that, withouth further explanation.

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I only saw the Iron Giant for the first time a few months ago so I can see the parallels with Big Hero 6 now. I quite enjoyed the film actually and the re-release featured a nice allusion to Tomorrowland which Brad Bird got with Disney's permission.

I haven't seen The Iron Giant so many times, but I agree with all of those acclaims that praises it, since it is a pleasant and good film. I like the score, the characterizations and the overall vibe of the film, though to be fair I've considered to be Brad Bird's only truly great film. Both The Incredibles and Ratatouille had their things to recommend about them, but weren't as a great as Giant

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I completely agree that Bastion was the far superior design compared to Kristoff. Keane did an amazing job with his Rapunzel designs and it's a pity he stepped down as director.

You know what? The aforementioned friend of mine mentioned that if Keane was the director all along, the music would've been better :P Which is fair, since it recently was confirmed that the music in Tangled was made under non-creative circumstances.

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As Long as There's a Moon featured Esmeralda and Phoebus getting married which I always felt was a super odd reaction since they should all be running away with Frollo coming soon. That's another reason I prefer In a Place of Miracles because story-wise, it flows better. However, to address your point that a wedding would have been too traditional for this film, it technically does get interrupted by Frollo so that itself is a subversion. After all, most weddings in Disney films happen at the end of the films and they're your traditional happy endings so what occurs in As Long as There's a Moon is quite unique for Disney.

True. But frankly is not as every Disney couple needed a wedding, despite that it's become a Disney trope. The late Renaissance pictures excluded the weddings, despite that Tarzan and Jane are referred to as husband and wife in their animated series. But frankly, I would rather have the love duet fo|r a Disney couple than a wedding.

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I hated the cartoony designs of The Good Dinosaur. They really didn't feel like they belonged to a Pixar film at all and I agree that aspects of the story were so bizarre like the hallucinogenic berries. The Lion King's most emotional scene being copied here totally didn't work since all it did was make audiences want to watch The Lion King instead. That's the worst thing a movie can do which is to reference a far superior movie which makes viewers wish they were watching that instead lol. I think The Good Dinosaur never got as much complaints as Cars 2 and Brave mainly because it was the least watched Pixar film.

I know, right? Pixar has been so-so with their designs, but the designs for The Good Dinosaur were jarringly lackluster to begin with, even by Pixar standards! The fact that the dinosaurs were farmers were just as jarring! The premise could've worked if they've managed to solve it in a compelling way, which they didn't. Besides, I absolutely HATED the scene where Arlo is rescued by his dad in his dreams and his dad just bluntly ignores him and comes around when Arlo acknowledges that Spot wasn't the reason that he was killed. That's an unreasonable and harsh way of handling a trauma. I think The Good Dinosaur wasn't as hated as Cars 2 and Brave is that they were perceived as being the firsts duds and how Inside Out was their brief comeback that outshined their following dud.

Have we ever talked about Inside Out, btw?

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I love the Princess formula! I'm just not a fan of how it's been subverted and made fun of in the Revival films with the supposed new "princess" films like Tangled, Frozen, Moana, alongside Brave, Maleficent and the live-action BATB. The comment in Moana was so badly shoehorned and threw me out of the film. At least in the live-action BATB, the remark made by Emma Watson still made sense story-wise, even if her delivery couldn't have more possibly shown her disgust. If I'm correct, the makers of Brave flat out said that the character and the film was created to make an anti-princess film or something along the lines of that. The only major subversion though was Merida not marrying anyone at the end since there was no central romance in the film but it was hardly groundbreaking otherwise.

Alright, fair enough. To be honest, I felt Belle's "I'm not a Princess"-comment in the live-action BATB was just as shoehorned in and therefore mandatory. And yeah, Brave was hardly groundbreaking otherwise, despite that repeated viewings made me realize that Ellinor and Merida eventually learned from each other; Merida learned diplomacy with putting down the clans with a speech, whereas Ellinor learned to eventually use her wits to fight, as Merida would've done.

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I wish we got more information about that version of Gigantic. If nothing else, it was nice to see a Disney film that doesn't just focus on two characters but instead an ensemble cast, just to prove that Disney can make films that aren't buddy comedies.

Agreed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:56 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Fair enough. I actually like Eddie Murphy as a person and consider his work to be fine enough, yet it's headscratching why he even was casted as Mushu. He just seems miscasted due to his ethnicity, despite that he wasn't utterly terrible at the part. At least they had the rest of the cast right, though when I learned that the cast was almost all Asian-American, it reminded me shallowly of the cast that Disney did for Pocahontas (though the comparison is still somewhat fair, since both movies are about non-Caucasian female leads). Since you've remembered that I initially though Disney were going to make Mushu an actual, real-size dragon, I wondered how it would be combined if Eddie Murphy voiced a large dragon.

Aren't the major Native American characters all from some sort of Native American descent in Pocahontas anyway? Pocahontas and her father are, but I'm not sure about Nakoma and Kocoum and the rest of the cast are all supposed to be British, animals, or a tree. Mulan's all-Asian cast makes sense since the film features only Asian characters besides a cricket and a dragon. Disney changed Mushu into being a pocket-sized dragon when they realized it wouldn't be feasible that Mulan is accompanied by a full-sized dragon and nobody ever sees him, so I doubt that idea ever got very far. I think part of Eddie Murphy's charm is from voicing what essentially what be a runt in the dragon litter lol, so I can't even imagine what it would be like if he voiced a full-sized dragon (except for maybe when he impersonates the Golden Dragon of Unity at the end of Mulan II).

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Okay. I don't remember so much from the 2003 version, but I thought it was meh.

The 2003 Peter Pan film is actually my favorite lol. It's the definitive Peter Pan and the most faithful adaptation of the text. Funny how I went from only watching it for a glance at the mermaids to eventually regarding it as one of my favorite films ever.

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Oh, I've heard about those theories, but I doubt that they're true. But at least it makes sense, due to how both Peter Pan and The Little Mermaid both have mermaids. But you know, there are fans who truly believes in certain theories (*cough, Frozen-Tangled-Tarzan, theory, cough*)

Yeah, we've discussed those Frozen theories before and you know I'm not a fan of them at all. Casual fans seem to take those easter eggs for face value and assume that Jane must be a descendant of Belle since she has Mrs. Potts and Chip or that Tarzan is Elsa and Anna's brother.

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I remember reading some vaguely rumors about some people wanting the mermaids to have their franchise, but I could be wrong about it, though. But hey, why not? At least they could redeem them, as they've done with Tinker Bell.

I wouldn't call Tink redeemed as much as her personality was completely overhauled. Even in the original books, Tink was pretty true to character. I guess because she wasn't the main character in those, they felt they didn't need to drastically alter her. Vidia was also toned down from the books in the movies.

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Haha, they were indeed! But not as terrible as the doll of Melody.

Yeah that Melody doll has a frightening face. Whatever people think of Melody and her characterization, I have to say that I've always loved her design.

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Frankly, most of the characters in NeverLand are unapprochable and hostile, though to be fair, both The Lost Boys and the Natives at least mellow up through their movie. However, in my adult years I've realized that it could be a theory of growing up is to be decent, since NeverLand represents the worst behaviours of childhood. To be fair, the Natives are initially suspicious for a legit reason, whereas The Lost Boys (who I used to like in my childhood) are incredibly obnoxious, yet they're still not as malicious as either Tinker Bell, the mermaids or the pirates. Though to her credit, Tinker Bell has a slight moments where she fights a pirate, but that's not enough to redeem her.

What's really contradictory is how Mister Smee is even among the pirates when he clearly could've been a good character. But perhaps he's too dense and naive to realize it.

Well, Tinker Bell fights pirates because her ultimate loyalty is to Peter Pan. Not because she feels for Wendy or her brothers, so I'm not sure I would even credit her for that lol. As for Smee, that's in part because of Disney's toned down characterization. In the book/play, he's supposed to have this nice, grandfatherly type image (much like in the Disney movie) but he's actually one of the most dangerous and vile of all the pirates. But neither Hook or Smee come across as menacing at all in the Disney film and are in some ways, more sympathetic than the main characters of Peter and Tink.

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No, I haven't.

Yeah, ScarJo's comments were all over the Internet and she's gotten a lot of backlash for her tonedeaf comments. I think they've made a meme from what she's said.

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True, but what differentiates Elsa is how she's basically not as malicious as Maleficent or Tinker Bell (despite how the previous live action version has redeemed our dear Mistress of Evil). Unlike those two, Elsa is just a misunderstood loner. Yet I bet there wouldn't have been as many complains if Anna eventually became sidelinded.

You know, I don't know if I've said this before, but I had a friend through e-mail who disliked Frozen and complained about certain points: If fear is Elsa's enemy, then why does her parents just trigger her fears? And if Elsa is afraid not to hurt Anna, why does she creates a monster of a snowman that could kill her (despite that I've never saw it like that). And he certainly complained about the ending, where "love" is suddenly the resolution to Elsa's powers and only that, withouth further explanation.

Well Maleficent and Tinker Bell have both been "redeemed" (and by that I mean completely replaced with sanitized versions) through the Maleficent film and the Disney Fairies series so it's not surprising that Disney went with an overly commercialized version of Elsa. Yeah, Frozen's script isn't very well-done or polished which is why there are so many story issues and problems. A lot of Disney films get criticism for having plotholes like BATB or TLM, but Frozen takes the cake probably. From what I remember, the script was finalized only a few months before release because of how much they were constantly changing. I also agree with you that Marshmallow wasn't really supposed to be a life-threatening danger to Anna's life, but just a bodyguard of sorts to kick the characters out of Elsa's palace.

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I haven't seen The Iron Giant so many times, but I agree with all of those acclaims that praises it, since it is a pleasant and good film. I like the score, the characterizations and the overall vibe of the film, though to be fair I've considered to be Brad Bird's only truly great film. Both The Incredibles and Ratatouille had their things to recommend about them, but weren't as a great as Giant

I've grown up with The Incredibles and Ratatouille whereas I just saw The Iron Giant for the first time recently and haven't rewatched it since so I can't really compare it to his other works yet. I know that The Incredibles was always my favorite Pixar film growing up so I don't think anything will replace that yet from Bird's films.

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You know what? The aforementioned friend of mine mentioned that if Keane was the director all along, the music would've been better :P Which is fair, since it recently was confirmed that the music in Tangled was made under non-creative circumstances.

I agree that the music probably would have been better in Keane's Rapunzel. The music changed constantly as well because originally it was supposed to feature songs the way the classic Walt Disney films had them but they weren't these big-budget Broadway ensembles. I guess when Menken came on board, that's when they transitioned the film into a full-fledged musical but I think even that was more after Keane came off board because going by what we know of the plot, his version doesn't sound like the typical musical. I know Menken was heavily constrained during Tangled with what he could do and was told to tone down the musical elements so I See the Light wasn't as grand or epic as it was meant to be.

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True. But frankly is not as every Disney couple needed a wedding, despite that it's become a Disney trope. The late Renaissance pictures excluded the weddings, despite that Tarzan and Jane are referred to as husband and wife in their animated series. But frankly, I would rather have the love duet for a Disney couple than a wedding.

There really aren't that many Disney weddings anyway, at least not ones we see onscreen. I think Phoebus and Esmeralda having a love duet would have helped audiences accept their relationship more the way that many people said that Pocahontas and John Smith's relationship was never very believable until after If I Never Knew You was added back into the film.

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I know, right? Pixar has been so-so with their designs, but the designs for The Good Dinosaur were jarringly lackluster to begin with, even by Pixar standards! The fact that the dinosaurs were farmers were just as jarring! The premise could've worked if they've managed to solve it in a compelling way, which they didn't. Besides, I absolutely HATED the scene where Arlo is rescued by his dad in his dreams and his dad just bluntly ignores him and comes around when Arlo acknowledges that Spot wasn't the reason that he was killed. That's an unreasonable and harsh way of handling a trauma. I think The Good Dinosaur wasn't as hated as Cars 2 and Brave is that they were perceived as being the firsts duds and how Inside Out was their brief comeback that outshined their following dud.

Have we ever talked about Inside Out, btw?


Cars 2 (and Cars 3 as well to a lesser extent) get the most hate but The Good Dinosaur gets way more flack than Brave online. That's usually just when it's remembered because a lot of people admit that they usually don't even remember that the film existed lol. I think we've talked about Inside Out before, at least briefly. Imo it's a decent film but massively overhyped. I don't find it as well done as other people seem to regard it and the characters are all very unlikable. The general premise of the film is super interesting but the film is reduced to a generic buddy comedy road trip film. I honestly only like the character of Bing Bong.

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Alright, fair enough. To be honest, I felt Belle's "I'm not a Princess"-comment in the live-action BATB was just as shoehorned in and therefore mandatory. And yeah, Brave was hardly groundbreaking otherwise, despite that repeated viewings made me realize that Ellinor and Merida eventually learned from each other; Merida learned diplomacy with putting down the clans with a speech, whereas Ellinor learned to eventually use her wits to fight, as Merida would've done.

Yeah, most people hate Emma Watson's comment as Belle just as much as the one in Moana, but admittedly it never bothered me as much. The mention of a princess (and Belle not really being one) actually makes sense in the context of the scene, not to mention the film setting. In Moana, it's completely out of the blue and had no reason to be included at all except to poke fun at Disney's legacy. Say what you want about Enchanted, but that film never tried to deride Disney's classic traditions even as it went about gently subverting some tropes. I'm glad you've learned to appreciate Brave more. I think the mother-daughter relationship would have worked out better if Brenda Chapman had been allowed to stay and see it fully executed according to her vision.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:25 pm 
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Aren't the major Native American characters all from some sort of Native American descent in Pocahontas anyway? Pocahontas and her father are, but I'm not sure about Nakoma and Kocoum and the rest of the cast are all supposed to be British, animals, or a tree.

I dunno. Perhaps they are, but I doubt that they do descend directly from Pocahontas. Though I know that Irene Bedard is half eskimo and half cree.

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The 2003 Peter Pan film is actually my favorite lol. It's the definitive Peter Pan and the most faithful adaptation of the text. Funny how I went from only watching it for a glance at the mermaids to eventually regarding it as one of my favorite films ever.

Whoops, I'm sorry!

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Yeah, we've discussed those Frozen theories before and you know I'm not a fan of them at all. Casual fans seem to take those easter eggs for face value and assume that Jane must be a descendant of Belle since she has Mrs. Potts and Chip or that Tarzan is Elsa and Anna's brother.

Oh, I dislike the theory of Jane originating from Belle, due to how both are brunettes that wear the same dress colors! They don't even come from the same country and Mrs Potts was never confirmed to be English in the first place (despite her accent). If that were so, we could simply say that all Disney movies originate from each other! Even as a Disney obsessed child would never come up with those theories, though crossovers are still fun, though. In fact, it happens that I watch those on YouTube.
Since Disney are labeled for being so derivative (and frankly, it's not as bad as most people want it to be, since I happen to in fact love the fact that there are nods to their past), it's not strange that they even come up with those theories. But to be fair, I thought the Aladdin and Hercules connections made sense, since after all Aladdin and Jasmine do visit a Greek garden locations. I'm surprised that Aladdin and Mulan hasn't been linked as much, due to how Aladdin and Jasmine visits the Forbidden City after all :P

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I wouldn't call Tink redeemed as much as her personality was completely overhauled. Even in the original books, Tink was pretty true to character. I guess because she wasn't the main character in those, they felt they didn't need to drastically alter her. Vidia was also toned down from the books in the movies.

True. I haven't read the books, but I would want to, since they look after all appealing. Is it just me, or does Vidia resemble Megara design-wise?

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Yeah that Melody doll has a frightening face. Whatever people think of Melody and her characterization, I have to say that I've always loved her design.

Okay. Her design is not bad, but I dislike that her hair color is black, just like her fathers. I find it to be quite generic.

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Well, Tinker Bell fights pirates because her ultimate loyalty is to Peter Pan. Not because she feels for Wendy or her brothers, so I'm not sure I would even credit her for that lol. As for Smee, that's in part because of Disney's toned down characterization. In the book/play, he's supposed to have this nice, grandfatherly type image (much like in the Disney movie) but he's actually one of the most dangerous and vile of all the pirates. But neither Hook or Smee come across as menacing at all in the Disney film and are in some ways, more sympathetic than the main characters of Peter and Tink.

Well, to be fair, Hook does have some genuine moments of menace, but is unfortunately meant to be a comedic villain and therefore never comes across as credible with his cruelty. To be honest, I thought it was really callous what Peter did to Hook to begin with. And sure, everybody complains about Peter being a brat and though he is, he's not all bad all the time.
At least he has some redeemable moments now and then. He does acknowledge Tinker Bell when the bomb has been exploded, though unfortunately is not as satisfying as it could've been. Unfortunately Peter doesn't have an actual arc. The most developed of the characters are Wendy and her father.

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Well Maleficent and Tinker Bell have both been "redeemed" (and by that I mean completely replaced with sanitized versions) through the Maleficent film and the Disney Fairies series so it's not surprising that Disney went with an overly commercialized version of Elsa.

You know what? Funny that we should link Elsa and Tinker Bell together, because I remember when the first image of Elsa was leaked in 2013, I thought that she looked like a character that could stem from the Tinker Bell franchise, hahahaha!

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Yeah, Frozen's script isn't very well-done or polished which is why there are so many story issues and problems. A lot of Disney films get criticism for having plotholes like BATB or TLM, but Frozen takes the cake probably. From what I remember, the script was finalized only a few months before release because of how much they were constantly changing. I also agree with you that Marshmallow wasn't really supposed to be a life-threatening danger to Anna's life, but just a bodyguard of sorts to kick the characters out of Elsa's palace.

Yeah. I won't say that Frozen is the very worst, but it does have a couple of plot contrivances that calls for scrutiny.

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I've grown up with The Incredibles and Ratatouille whereas I just saw The Iron Giant for the first time recently and haven't rewatched it since so I can't really compare it to his other works yet. I know that The Incredibles was always my favorite Pixar film growing up so I don't think anything will replace that yet from Bird's films.

To be honest, I thought The Incredibles was just meh when I saw it initially. I thought it was fine, but nothing special otherwise. But later viewings have me realized it's strengths and it manages to be fun and entertaining. Despite that I don't find the premise particularly innovative and find some of the characters to be underdeveloped (Violet) and certain contrivances in the plot (of how Bob Parr is approached to begin his mission).

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I know Menken was heavily constrained during Tangled with what he could do and was told to tone down the musical elements so I See the Light wasn't as grand or epic as it was meant to be.

To be honest, I thought I See The Lights was the very best song of the film. Healing Incantation was the second, but never got to truly shine.

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There really aren't that many Disney weddings anyway, at least not ones we see onscreen. I think Phoebus and Esmeralda having a love duet would have helped audiences accept their relationship more the way that many people said that Pocahontas and John Smith's relationship was never very believable until after If I Never Knew You was added back into the film.

Agreed, I've heard that too! At the release, I didn't knew about If I Never Knew You being cut from the movie (for not having access to English speaking media), so at the time I thought it was somewhat odd to have a pivotal Disney romance without the big love duet. But in my adult years I learned about If I Never Knew You and while it's understandable why it was cut, it was pivotal to enhance the romance and it does give it the depth that it needs.

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I think we've talked about Inside Out before, at least briefly. Imo it's a decent film but massively overhyped. I don't find it as well done as other people seem to regard it and the characters are all very unlikable. The general premise of the film is super interesting but the film is reduced to a generic buddy comedy road trip film. I honestly only like the character of Bing Bong.

To be honest, I liked Inside Out, despite that it's not the very best that Pixar has done. Even though, it had it's own kind of flaws within itself. The premise is extremely intriguing, though one would wonder with such a complex premise that Pixar would break the mold and make the story more adult and layered with complexity, since it's basically just another childhood vs. adulthood premise of theirs. Even then, I thought Bing Bong was awkwardly juvenile, even for a Pixar character and was the weak link for the story. What strikes me with Joy's purpose is that she's basically representative of what people wants to be in life: Devoided for sadness.
I liked that Joy eventually went through an arc of her own, that her arc was minimalist, yet emotionally satisfying. But I disliked that her polar opposite, Sadness, who was after all the catalyst for the events, never went on a similar arc or realization that she needed the polar opposite. That was my main gripe with the story, since both characters needed to grow. However, the premise is still interesting enough to warrant a second film, so I would've liked actually if there were made more films about it.

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Say what you want about Enchanted, but that film never tried to deride Disney's classic traditions even as it went about gently subverting some tropes.

True. Enchanted was meant to be lovingly homage to the Disney fairy tale roots, anyways and succeeded in doing so. It didn't felt contrived as in other properties.

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I'm glad you've learned to appreciate Brave more. I think the mother-daughter relationship would have worked out better if Brenda Chapman had been allowed to stay and see it fully executed according to her vision.

Wonder how Chapman's original vision was to begin with. I know that she's stated that there weren't so many changes after all, yet it's been suggested that Andrews added the comedic fights and such. But I highly doubt he actually did, since Brave hardly had any action to begin with. I think Brave suffered from two things: For being a Pixar property that was shaped under the Disney Princess mold and for being the follower to Cars 2 and not being the ultimate compensation for it.

You know what? Regarding the Latina Princess-movie, I'm still baffled that Disney even considered that route. Due to how Disney shoehorned in an African-American Princess with Tiana, I thought that Disney had learned that not every nation needs to be shoehorned a Princess for mandatory and politically correct reasons. I thought they had enough with Elena of Avalor to begin with.

What do you think of the casting of a Ariel with color in the live action remake? To be honest, I don't mind it by itself, but I think it would've made more sense in a stage play or so than in a movie. Due to that Ariel is meant to be Caucasian and the notion of giving her color seems contrived for politically correct reasons. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind giving the Princesses colors, but it has to make sense and not just to be shoehorned in for PC-reasons.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:30 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I dunno. Perhaps they are, but I doubt that they do descend directly from Pocahontas. Though I know that Irene Bedard is half eskimo and half cree.

One of Pocahontas' direct descendants spoke out a few years ago in favor of Trump. She's incredibly wealthy and white lol. I think it's safe to say that Disney wouldn't have considered her a prime choice for Pocahontas lol, so I think that's probably why they didn't pursue an actual descendant of her to play the part.

What's interesting is that the CW made a TV show called Reign based on the life of Mary Queen of Scots and the lead actress was actually a descendant of Mary.

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Whoops, I'm sorry!

Lol, please don't apologize. Just because I love the movie doesn't mean you need to apologize for not liking it or finding it boring. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and in fact, I'd love to hear why you feel that way about it.

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Oh, I dislike the theory of Jane originating from Belle, due to how both are brunettes that wear the same dress colors! They don't even come from the same country and Mrs Potts was never confirmed to be English in the first place (despite her accent). If that were so, we could simply say that all Disney movies originate from each other! Even as a Disney obsessed child would never come up with those theories, though crossovers are still fun, though. In fact, it happens that I watch those on YouTube.
Since Disney are labeled for being so derivative (and frankly, it's not as bad as most people want it to be, since I happen to in fact love the fact that there are nods to their past), it's not strange that they even come up with those theories. But to be fair, I thought the Aladdin and Hercules connections made sense, since after all Aladdin and Jasmine do visit a Greek garden locations. I'm surprised that Aladdin and Mulan hasn't been linked as much, due to how Aladdin and Jasmine visits the Forbidden City after all :P

I remember I used to notice Pinocchio in Sebastian in Aladdin, or Mrs. Potts and Chip in Tarzan, but I never used to think they must all co-exist and be connected to each other (outside of House of Mouse or the Disney Parks). Jane and Belle both being brunettes in yellow (even though Belle's dress was explicitly called gold originally) is such a silly reason to connect them like you said.
Is the palace in Mulan explicitly called the Forbidden City? I know in development they just wanted a palace that would make audiences think of China and since that was the most famous one, it was based off that. I'm not sure if the one in Aladdin is explicitly the Forbidden City either though. I think the Aladdin/Hercules crossover is more known because of the TV series crossover and because both are sword-wielding male protagonists in a film known for its anachronistic humor and bombastic characters. Meg and Jasmine get a lot of comparisons too.

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True. I haven't read the books, but I would want to, since they look after all appealing. Is it just me, or does Vidia resemble Megara design-wise?

The books are more based on the original Peter Pan novel rather than the Disney film which I prefer. Because of that, the books are more whimsical and like the tone of the original novel. However, the character designs are all based on the Disney film though as is evident from Tinker Bell. I think the books are a lot more impressive and the characters more well-rounded whereas the ones in the films seem to just be known for a stock trait (Fawn likes animals, Rosetta is sorta frivolous, Iridessa is a worrywart). The books have a much more magical and fantastical tone that I prefer over the films. Yes, I always got Vidia and Meg comparisons too. Probably why I like Vidia so much.

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Okay. Her design is not bad, but I dislike that her hair color is black, just like her fathers. I find it to be quite generic.

I actually liked Melody with black hair. Making it red would have made her too much of an Ariel clone and often Disney makes their daughters identical to their mother (Lady and her daughters, Duchess and Marie, Queen Iduna and Elsa, Queen Leah and Aurora, Queen Athena and Ariel, Queen Primrose and Rapunzel, etc.)

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Well, to be fair, Hook does have some genuine moments of menace, but is unfortunately meant to be a comedic villain and therefore never comes across as credible with his cruelty. To be honest, I thought it was really callous what Peter did to Hook to begin with. And sure, everybody complains about Peter being a brat and though he is, he's not all bad all the time.
At least he has some redeemable moments now and then. He does acknowledge Tinker Bell when the bomb has been exploded, though unfortunately is not as satisfying as it could've been. Unfortunately Peter doesn't have an actual arc. The most developed of the characters are Wendy and her father.

I've honestly never found Hook menacing. He's a dandy in the original works, but never to the extent where Walt Disney opted not to kill him off because he felt audiences would love him too much. I find it perplexing that the audience would root for the villain enough to not want to see him defeated. That defeats the point of a villain and really is nothing like the actual menacing character he was. In the book, he's closer in tone to something like the Evil Queen. The fact that Disney will very often put group shots of all their characters together and use only good characters, but throw in Captain Hook, tells me that he's not even treated like a villain by Disney themselves. That's also why Peter's action comes across as so malicious on his part because the audience is on Hook's side, whereas a proper villainous Hook would not elicit that same amount of sympathy. No one is supposed to feel for Maleficent or The Queen when they meet their comeuppance.

The Tinker Bell scene is so jarring because the explosion can be seen from Captain Hook's ship yet she's completely unscathed and suddenly is fine a few minutes later. That was not well done at all and even the sequel did this scene better actually.

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You know what? Funny that we should link Elsa and Tinker Bell together, because I remember when the first image of Elsa was leaked in 2013, I thought that she looked like a character that could stem from the Tinker Bell franchise, hahahaha!

Elsa looked like a copy of Silvermist for sure! I remember everyone made the Disney Fairies connection back then.

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To be honest, I thought The Incredibles was just meh when I saw it initially. I thought it was fine, but nothing special otherwise. But later viewings have me realized it's strengths and it manages to be fun and entertaining. Despite that I don't find the premise particularly innovative and find some of the characters to be underdeveloped (Violet) and certain contrivances in the plot (of how Bob Parr is approached to begin his mission).

Violet gets a lot more screentime in Incredibles 2 and she's more confident with her powers as well. She was always my favorite character. I actually always thought it was clever that Mirage finds Bob only because she tracked down Frozone and otherwise, Bob and Helen were pretty well hidden.

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To be honest, I thought I See The Lights was the very best song of the film. Healing Incantation was the second, but never got to truly shine.

I See the Lights is my favorite song as well from the film. It's the only one besides the Healing Incantation I liked. It sounds best during the Soundsational Parade when it's really loud and has a chorus so I which it sounded like that more during the movie where it's softer and more intimate.

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Agreed, I've heard that too! At the release, I didn't knew about If I Never Knew You being cut from the movie (for not having access to English speaking media), so at the time I thought it was somewhat odd to have a pivotal Disney romance without the big love duet. But in my adult years I learned about If I Never Knew You and while it's understandable why it was cut, it was pivotal to enhance the romance and it does give it the depth that it needs.

Cutting If I Never Knew You was akin to if they had cut Part of Your World from TLM since that was the plan as well. Luckily Howard Ashman was there to keep that from happening but Menken and Schwartz didn't champion If I Never Knew You as much in Pocahontas.

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To be honest, I liked Inside Out, despite that it's not the very best that Pixar has done. Even though, it had it's own kind of flaws within itself. The premise is extremely intriguing, though one would wonder with such a complex premise that Pixar would break the mold and make the story more adult and layered with complexity, since it's basically just another childhood vs. adulthood premise of theirs. Even then, I thought Bing Bong was awkwardly juvenile, even for a Pixar character and was the weak link for the story. What strikes me with Joy's purpose is that she's basically representative of what people wants to be in life: Devoided for sadness.
I liked that Joy eventually went through an arc of her own, that her arc was minimalist, yet emotionally satisfying. But I disliked that her polar opposite, Sadness, who was after all the catalyst for the events, never went on a similar arc or realization that she needed the polar opposite. That was my main gripe with the story, since both characters needed to grow. However, the premise is still interesting enough to warrant a second film, so I would've liked actually if there were made more films about it.

I think Bing Bong was supposed to be a juvenile character since he's a child's imaginary friend. I found Joy annoying although she does grow and realize the importance of sadness towards the end. I think Sadness never had her own journey because maybe the makers felt that since Joy is dominant in Riley's life, the real lesson is that Sadness needs her time too, whereas Sadness never tries to completely overwhelm Riley. At least, that's why I'm assuming they didn't give her similar character development.

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I'm glad you've learned to appreciate Brave more. I think the mother-daughter relationship would have worked out better if Brenda Chapman had been allowed to stay and see it fully executed according to her vision.

Wonder how Chapman's original vision was to begin with. I know that she's stated that there weren't so many changes after all, yet it's been suggested that Andrews added the comedic fights and such. But I highly doubt he actually did, since Brave hardly had any action to begin with. I think Brave suffered from two things: For being a Pixar property that was shaped under the Disney Princess mold and for being the follower to Cars 2 and not being the ultimate compensation for it.

You know what? Regarding the Latina Princess-movie, I'm still baffled that Disney even considered that route. Due to how Disney shoehorned in an African-American Princess with Tiana, I thought that Disney had learned that not every nation needs to be shoehorned a Princess for mandatory and politically correct reasons. I thought they had enough with Elena of Avalor to begin with.

What do you think of the casting of a Ariel with color in the live action remake? To be honest, I don't mind it by itself, but I think it would've made more sense in a stage play or so than in a movie. Due to that Ariel is meant to be Caucasian and the notion of giving her color seems contrived for politically correct reasons. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind giving the Princesses colors, but it has to make sense and not just to be shoehorned in for PC-reasons.[/quote]
Maybe the comedy that Andrews added was the stuff with all the suitors and their fathers because they were some of the worst parts of the film. I knew that the film ended up closer to Chapman's vision than before but it's possible that the reason the film is more considered good rather than great is becausse of her lack of presence to oversee the final film. Following Cars 2 should actually have made it easier to win back fans since anything would look better than that film. I agree that trying to beat the princes formula probably hurt the film.

I'm guessing that Elena has been successful enough for them to consider a full-length film for her. Possibly they felt Elena would be enough to sate the audience's appetite for a Hispanic princess but maybe they got enough criticism from the fact that she's a TV character and thus will never have the longevity and appeal of the others. It's also possible they just used her as a placeholder until they finally get around to making a film on a Hispanic princess.

Honestly, the fact that Disney would only look at black actresses and not any other ethnicity (Asian, Hispanic, etc.) makes me think this was a very carefully calculated decision to appear progressive. So I find that very upsetting that they didn't even consider ethnic groups except for in the form of a seagull (or whatever new bird Scuttle is supposed to be). I think colorblind casting works better on stage than in film like you. I think it's actually progressive to create new roles and new characters who are actually ethnic rather than shoehorn them into existing characters.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:20 pm 
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Quote:
One of Pocahontas' direct descendants spoke out a few years ago in favor of Trump. She's incredibly wealthy and white lol. I think it's safe to say that Disney wouldn't have considered her a prime choice for Pocahontas lol, so I think that's probably why they didn't pursue an actual descendant of her to play the part. What's interesting is that the CW made a TV show called Reign based on the life of Mary Queen of Scots and the lead actress was actually a descendant of Mary.

Really? Wow. But descendants of Natives could always be white ones. I remember that there was an interview about one of her descendants who actually happened to live in Norway.

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Lol, please don't apologize. Just because I love the movie doesn't mean you need to apologize for not liking it or finding it boring. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and in fact, I'd love to hear why you feel that way about it.

Thanks :) It's been a decade since I saw the 2003-version of Peter Pan, but I felt that it was hokey in an off-putting way. The dialogue, the acting and the overall sentiment was quite hokey. The characters were unlikable and unrealtable as well. Perhaps I should've given it another shot.

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I remember I used to notice Pinocchio in Sebastian in Aladdin, or Mrs. Potts and Chip in Tarzan, but I never used to think they must all co-exist and be connected to each other (outside of House of Mouse or the Disney Parks). Jane and Belle both being brunettes in yellow (even though Belle's dress was explicitly called gold originally) is such a silly reason to connect them like you said.

The same here. I never considered to think that Disney movies co-existed in the same universe, though I remember that an older cousin of mine told me that Belle appeared in Hunchback and it made me really curious (though I didn't notice it until as an adult, lol). I thought the Scar cameo in Hercules made somewhat sense, since Greeks and Romans had lions. Have you noticed how Easter Eggs get published quite in advance nowadays? And often prior to the movie's releases? If there have been an Easter Egg that truly dissapointed me, it's Flounder in Moana. It hardly looked like him at all!
But since we're talking about Tarzan, I thought that it was a pity that it didn't have any cameos from The Lion King at all, since it would've made some sense after all! They're both placed in the same continent.

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Is the palace in Mulan explicitly called the Forbidden City? I know in development they just wanted a palace that would make audiences think of China and since that was the most famous one, it was based off that. I'm not sure if the one in Aladdin is explicitly the Forbidden City either though.

I cannot remember that it was referred to as the Forbidden City, but I've just assumed so, since it was modeled after it. It was just an assumption of mine, since it's one of the most iconic cities and places in China.

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I think the Aladdin/Hercules crossover is more known because of the TV series crossover and because both are sword-wielding male protagonists in a film known for its anachronistic humor and bombastic characters. Meg and Jasmine get a lot of comparisons too.

True. Since Pocahontas had so many obvious similarities to Mermaid and Hunchback was basically another Beauty and the Beast-premise, I guessed that Hercules would follow the Aladdin-mold and be a comedy with pop culture references with a male hero. The comparisons may be shallow, but we know that Hercules was deliberately shaped to be like Aladdin, since they have more similarities than one. I wondered if there was going to be a movie that would follow The Lion King-mold and it was of course Tarzan. Yet I've always felt that Tarzan was an amalgam of both The Lion King and Pocahontas simultaneously, but I've probably said it before.

Of course the comparisons between Hunchback/Beauty and Hercules/Aladdin are not only just a mere coincidence, since those movies have the same directing team. Of course the nods to Beauty in Hunchback were overt and obvious, but when I saw Hercules for the first time, I remember feeling that the nods to Musker and Clements' prior movies were too overt and obvious (Zeus resembling King Triton, Hades being a male version of Ursula and last, but not least how Hercules and Phil's fight is reminiscent of the one between Aladdin and Genie).

To be honest, I don't find Jasmine and Meg that comparable. Both are strong-willed and stubborned women, but besides that, they have very little in common. At least Meg's design is a true departure from the typical Disney heroine, since that's how Ken Duncan designs women.

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I actually liked Melody with black hair. Making it red would have made her too much of an Ariel clone and often Disney makes their daughters identical to their mother (Lady and her daughters, Duchess and Marie, Queen Iduna and Elsa, Queen Leah and Aurora, Queen Athena and Ariel, Queen Primrose and Rapunzel, etc.)

Fair enough. I'm not saying that Melody needed to be a ginger like her mother, but I've would had another hair color for her. To be honest, I don't find Rapunzel and her mother that similar, since Rapunzel's design in slightly more charicatured than her mothers (sorry to nitpick, but her name is Arianna according to Disney Wiki).

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I've honestly never found Hook menacing. He's a dandy in the original works, but never to the extent where Walt Disney opted not to kill him off because he felt audiences would love him too much. I find it perplexing that the audience would root for the villain enough to not want to see him defeated. That defeats the point of a villain and really is nothing like the actual menacing character he was. In the book, he's closer in tone to something like the Evil Queen. The fact that Disney will very often put group shots of all their characters together and use only good characters, but throw in Captain Hook, tells me that he's not even treated like a villain by Disney themselves. That's also why Peter's action comes across as so malicious on his part because the audience is on Hook's side, whereas a proper villainous Hook would not elicit that same amount of sympathy. No one is supposed to feel for Maleficent or The Queen when they meet their comeuppance.

Okay. Fair enough.

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Elsa looked like a copy of Silvermist for sure! I remember everyone made the Disney Fairies connection back then.

I know, right? I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that connection! But frankly, those leaked pictures were the best ones of the sisters. I remember there were a lot of complaints about Anna looking like a Rapunzel-look-a-like at the time, yet those complaints are legit. I even remember people whining about Anna being too white and there was made a collage picture of all the non-White Disney heroines.

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Violet gets a lot more screentime in Incredibles 2 and she's more confident with her powers as well. She was always my favorite character. I actually always thought it was clever that Mirage finds Bob only because she tracked down Frozone and otherwise, Bob and Helen were pretty well hidden.

Okay, I hope you didn't felt that I was trashing Violet. I haven't seen Incredibles 2 yet.

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Cutting If I Never Knew You was akin to if they had cut Part of Your World from TLM since that was the plan as well. Luckily Howard Ashman was there to keep that from happening but Menken and Schwartz didn't champion If I Never Knew You as much in Pocahontas

Fair enough, but the difference between If I Never Knew You and Part of Your World is that IIKY was a love duet that happened late in the game and therefore it's placement was that ultimately was misplaced, whereas POYW was the "I Want"-number tha occurred early, so therefore it was more acceptable. Though IIKY would happen prior to Savages.

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I think Bing Bong was supposed to be a juvenile character since he's a child's imaginary friend. I found Joy annoying although she does grow and realize the importance of sadness towards the end. I think Sadness never had her own journey because maybe the makers felt that since Joy is dominant in Riley's life, the real lesson is that Sadness needs her time too, whereas Sadness never tries to completely overwhelm Riley. At least, that's why I'm assuming they didn't give her similar character development.

Fair enough, but I thought the story would've resonated more if Sadness also had her own arc and realized the necessity of her polar opposite. As for Joy, she could be somewhat grating, but not as grating as she could've been. As for Riley, I felt that Riley was a pretty bland character and more a prop in her own movie than an actual character.

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Maybe the comedy that Andrews added was the stuff with all the suitors and their fathers because they were some of the worst parts of the film. I knew that the film ended up closer to Chapman's vision than before but it's possible that the reason the film is more considered good rather than great is becausse of her lack of presence to oversee the final film. Following Cars 2 should actually have made it easier to win back fans since anything would look better than that film. I agree that trying to beat the princes formula probably hurt the film.

Yeah, I think Andrews added the comedic fights and they were the least gelling part, as they were juvenile and grating. I wonder if the buzz regarding the changes has been huge due to the fact of the public scrutiny Chapman faced and to our times of social media. Yet one cannot help but feeling sorry for her, she was taken on her pet project.

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I'm guessing that Elena has been successful enough for them to consider a full-length film for her. Possibly they felt Elena would be enough to sate the audience's appetite for a Hispanic princess but maybe they got enough criticism from the fact that she's a TV character and thus will never have the longevity and appeal of the others. It's also possible they just used her as a placeholder until they finally get around to making a film on a Hispanic princess.

True, but the new Latina project haven't been labeled as a full-length adaptation of the Elena series. So let's hope it will have some originality.

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Honestly, the fact that Disney would only look at black actresses and not any other ethnicity (Asian, Hispanic, etc.) makes me think this was a very carefully calculated decision to appear progressive. So I find that very upsetting that they didn't even consider ethnic groups except for in the form of a seagull (or whatever new bird Scuttle is supposed to be). I think colorblind casting works better on stage than in film like you. I think it's actually progressive to create new roles and new characters who are actually ethnic rather than shoehorn them into existing characters.

Well said! Let's not forget that we had Brandy as Cinderella in 1997, but at least that was more acceptable. In fact, Ariel is so iconic due to her ginger hair.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:18 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Really? Wow. But descendants of Natives could always be white ones. I remember that there was an interview about one of her descendants who actually happened to live in Norway.

You're right that descendants of Native Americans can be white. I certainly know considering the amount of white people in my school who would go around talking about their Native American ancestry. That's really interesting that Pocahontas has a descendant in Norway now.

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Thanks :) It's been a decade since I saw the 2003-version of Peter Pan, but I felt that it was hokey in an off-putting way. The dialogue, the acting and the overall sentiment was quite hokey. The characters were unlikable and unrealtable as well. Perhaps I should've given it another shot.

Lol, if you found the dialogue and overall sentiment hokey, then you probably wouldn't be a fan of the Peter Pan book because much of the dialogue is lifted word for word. And the overall tone of the film comes from the book as well which is very much meant to be addressed to a small child who still believes in fairies. In which case, probably you won't like those early Disney Fairies books either. Did you find the characters in the 2003 live-action Peter Pan more unlikable and unrelatable as compared to their Disney counterparts? For me it was the opposite, because I used to be fine with the Disney versions until I saw the 2003 film and then that soured my impressions on the Disney characters because they couldn't hold up.

It's actually a deep regret of mine that I can no longer look at the Disney Peter Pan film with love and adoration anymore because all I see is wasted potential but I have felt better about it because of how so many people online (including on this forum) have talked about how Disney's Peter Pan is really one of Walt's worst films and hasn't aged as well as the rest of the movies he made.

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The same here. I never considered to think that Disney movies co-existed in the same universe, though I remember that an older cousin of mine told me that Belle appeared in Hunchback and it made me really curious (though I didn't notice it until as an adult, lol). I thought the Scar cameo in Hercules made somewhat sense, since Greeks and Romans had lions. Have you noticed how Easter Eggs get published quite in advance nowadays? And often prior to the movie's releases? If there have been an Easter Egg that truly dissapointed me, it's Flounder in Moana. It hardly looked like him at all!
But since we're talking about Tarzan, I thought that it was a pity that it didn't have any cameos from The Lion King at all, since it would've made some sense after all! They're both placed in the same continent.

It's funny how that scene with Belle in Hunchback also features the Carpet and Pumbaa. Scar had quite a prominent cameo as you said but his always felt seamless. Yeah, Easter Eggs in general are pretty popular for all films these days so I'm not surprised that Disney makes a bigger deal out of them then they used to (which always felt more like they were created for the animators themselves rather than the audience).

Yeah, Flounder was disappointing in Moana. I'm still surprised they flat-out mentioned Sebastian in the end-credits scene but I guess Moana already had some very meta commentary like the princess reference and their next film (WIR2) would only jump on that bandwagon even more. It's a good thing Sebastian's reference is kept till the end because that's another example (at least to me) of a lesser film referencing a far superior one. It totally makes me want to switch movies to the better film being referenced, in this case TLM so Sebastian not being mentioned until literally the very end prevents from the danger of viewers switching films halfway through.

Yeah, I always thought it was weird too that there aren't any obvious Lion King references in Tarzan.

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I cannot remember that it was referred to as the Forbidden City, but I've just assumed so, since it was modeled after it. It was just an assumption of mine, since it's one of the most iconic cities and places in China.

Oh ok, my assumption as well was that Aladdin visited the Forbidden City but I wasn't completely sure especially since most people think the palace in Mulan is supposed to be that as well.

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True. Since Pocahontas had so many obvious similarities to Mermaid and Hunchback was basically another Beauty and the Beast-premise, I guessed that Hercules would follow the Aladdin-mold and be a comedy with pop culture references with a male hero. The comparisons may be shallow, but we know that Hercules was deliberately shaped to be like Aladdin, since they have more similarities than one. I wondered if there was going to be a movie that would follow The Lion King-mold and it was of course Tarzan. Yet I've always felt that Tarzan was an amalgam of both The Lion King and Pocahontas simultaneously, but I've probably said it before.

Of course the comparisons between Hunchback/Beauty and Hercules/Aladdin are not only just a mere coincidence, since those movies have the same directing team. Of course the nods to Beauty in Hunchback were overt and obvious, but when I saw Hercules for the first time, I remember feeling that the nods to Musker and Clements' prior movies were too overt and obvious (Zeus resembling King Triton, Hades being a male version of Ursula and last, but not least how Hercules and Phil's fight is reminiscent of the one between Aladdin and Genie).

To be honest, I don't find Jasmine and Meg that comparable. Both are strong-willed and stubborned women, but besides that, they have very little in common. At least Meg's design is a true departure from the typical Disney heroine, since that's how Ken Duncan designs women.

I'm not that surprised that I love Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Tarzan because they parallel with TLM, BATB, and TLK (and as you said Tarzan sorta draws from both TLK and Pocahontas). Weird that I love Aladdin but not its direct parallel, Hercules. As many people say, Hercules is Aladdin on steroids so maybe that's why. The comic relief works in Aladdin because even though the Genie comes to dominate the middle part of the film, he has a lot of heart to him as well unlike any of the comic relief in Hercules. And one character (or two if you count Iago) is still pretty balanced for Aladdin whereas literally every character in Hercules, major and minor, are constantly whipping out zinger lines.

The Zeus in Hercules has a strong resemblance to the Zeus in Fantasia which is probably what they were more closely referencing. But you're right that Triton and Zeus have a lot in common design-wise and it's even more obvious with Ursula and Hades and even Genie and Phil. If I'm correct, Eric Goldberg animated Phil so that's another connection to the Genie. Pegasus is even a Carpet surrogate. Jasmine, Esmeralda, and Meg tend to get compared a lot to each other, not just for being strong-willed and spitfires but also for the fact that all three very sexualized (Jasmine seducing Jafar, Frollo desiring Esmeralda, Meg seducing Hercules).

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Fair enough. I'm not saying that Melody needed to be a ginger like her mother, but I've would had another hair color for her. To be honest, I don't find Rapunzel and her mother that similar, since Rapunzel's design in slightly more charicatured than her mothers (sorry to nitpick, but her name is Arianna according to Disney Wiki).

I think another hair color for Melody would be problematic though because if she has blonde or brown hair, suddenly it'll be weird for little kids that she has no resemblance whatsoever to either of her parents. It's not like Ariel's sisters are really well known or iconic enough in design to explain for why merpeople all look different from each other. I always felt Melody's design was skillfully done because she resembled a healthy mix of both her parents whereas usually a child is designed to completely resemble only one parent.

Tbh, all the CGI women look alike to me. Oops, you're right about Rapunzel's mother's name. I don't watch the TV series but I remember they gave her a name so when I was referencing her, I originally planned on just calling her Rapunzel's mother before thinking that I better use her real name. For some reason I thought Primrose was her given name, probably because the fandom used to use that for fanfics and fanart before the TV series. I forgot that Arianna was her given name. I think the King is called Frederic but I don't remember what the fandom used to call him.

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I know, right? I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that connection! But frankly, those leaked pictures were the best ones of the sisters. I remember there were a lot of complaints about Anna looking like a Rapunzel-look-a-like at the time, yet those complaints are legit. I even remember people whining about Anna being too white and there was made a collage picture of all the non-White Disney heroines.

Honestly when I first saw Anna, I thought it was fanmade because it really did look like a poor redressing of Rapunzel. I was not pleased when I heard that Anna and Elsa's leaked images were in fact real since Elsa looked like a Disney Fairies reject like we said earlier.

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Okay, I hope you didn't felt that I was trashing Violet. I haven't seen Incredibles 2 yet.

Oh don't worry, I didn't feel you were trashing Violet. As I said before, you're entitled to your own opinions and I hope you don't feel that you have to hide your feelings towards a film, character, song, etc. that you dislike just because I like it or vice-versa. I liked Incredibles 2 a lot but if you weren't a fan of the original then there probably isn't much about this film to recommend itself to you.

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Fair enough, but the difference between If I Never Knew You and Part of Your World is that IIKY was a love duet that happened late in the game and therefore it's placement was that ultimately was misplaced, whereas POYW was the "I Want"-number tha occurred early, so therefore it was more acceptable. Though IIKY would happen prior to Savages.

I've always wondered why there's such a big deal about musical numbers not being introduced late in the running time of a film. Jafar's villain song was similarly cut because the directors felt that it was too late in the film to have a song.

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Fair enough, but I thought the story would've resonated more if Sadness also had her own arc and realized the necessity of her polar opposite. As for Joy, she could be somewhat grating, but not as grating as she could've been. As for Riley, I felt that Riley was a pretty bland character and more a prop in her own movie than an actual character.

Yeah, Riley was very boring and even unlikable (although that part may have been on purpose because of how out of balance she is with Joy and Sadness fighting for dominion over her). Honestly, I think even a tertiary character like Andy resonates more than Riley ever did. I understand your point about Sadness' own arc. I'm curious if the makers ever thought about more carefully balancing her storyline with Joy's or if the plan was always to just focus on Joy's development.

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Yeah, I think Andrews added the comedic fights and they were the least gelling part, as they were juvenile and grating. I wonder if the buzz regarding the changes has been huge due to the fact of the public scrutiny Chapman faced and to our times of social media. Yet one cannot help but feeling sorry for her, she was taken on her pet project.

Agreed, Brenda Chapman got a raw deal.

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True, but the new Latina project haven't been labeled as a full-length adaptation of the Elena series. So let's hope it will have some originality.

Sorry, what I meant to say earlier was that Elena was successful enough that Disney sees the merits in having a film based on a Hispanic princess. So Elena's popularity has paved the way for an actual Hispanic princess in a real Disney film rather than just a TV show. I realize from the way I worded it before that it sounded like I was saying that Disney felt Elena was popular enough that they should make a cinematic film for her.

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Well said! Let's not forget that we had Brandy as Cinderella in 1997, but at least that was more acceptable. In fact, Ariel is so iconic due to her ginger hair.

The thing about Brandy's Cinderella was that it wasn't based on the Disney version but the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. Because Disney was making it though, they probably decided to change the dress (which is white in the original) to the blue that most people associate Cinderella with. It was never a direct adaptation or remake of the classic 1950 film the way the new Mermaid film is supposed to be.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:20 pm 
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I know this is completely Deja Vu, but once again, sorry for my late reply. Though it's not as late as it could've been, but nonetheless ;)

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You're right that descendants of Native Americans can be white. I certainly know considering the amount of white people in my school who would go around talking about their Native American ancestry.

OK. Many white Americans does that, though. It's truly a pity what history has done to the Native Americans.

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Lol, if you found the dialogue and overall sentiment hokey, then you probably wouldn't be a fan of the Peter Pan book because much of the dialogue is lifted word for word. And the overall tone of the film comes from the book as well which is very much meant to be addressed to a small child who still believes in fairies. In which case, probably you won't like those early Disney Fairies books either. Did you find the characters in the 2003 live-action Peter Pan more unlikable and unrelatable as compared to their Disney counterparts? For me it was the opposite, because I used to be fine with the Disney versions until I saw the 2003 film and then that soured my impressions on the Disney characters because they couldn't hold up.

Oh, that's a pity, I was looking so much forward to the Disney Fairies book series :P I found the characters from the 2003 version to be more unlikable, to be honest. But do you remember the Peter Pan series from Saban? Peter was definitively both selfish and callous there.

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It's actually a deep regret of mine that I can no longer look at the Disney Peter Pan film with love and adoration anymore because all I see is wasted potential but I have felt better about it because of how so many people online (including on this forum) have talked about how Disney's Peter Pan is really one of Walt's worst films and hasn't aged as well as the rest of the movies he made.

Well, the problem with Walt's Peter Pan is despite that it's deliberately about adult- vs. childhood, it still never fulfills it's potential. It has a premise that calls for development and arcs for the characters, yet very little of them do develop. The most overt ones are Wendy, who frankly becomes a surrogate adult at the end, and George Darling's, who's hatred for Pan is at least logically set up and his final arc is quite subdued, yet satisfying.
Peter Pan was perhaps not one of my true favorites as a child, yet I used to watch it regularly and I enjoyed it for what it was. As an adult I don't find it awful, but perhaps not right for it's time, since were it made today, it would've developed the characters more. I know that Walt was overall dissatisfied with the film, because it lacked heart and the characterization of Peter himself. Yet Peter Pan was more praised by the Disney artists and Disney historians than Alice in Wonderland was.

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It's funny how that scene with Belle in Hunchback also features the Carpet and Pumbaa.

True, but at least it was harder to see Pumbaa. I know there were rumors about Pumbaa being one of the Gargoyles on the Cathedral, but I think it's was an actual Gargoyle.

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Scar had quite a prominent cameo as you said but his always felt seamless. Yeah, Easter Eggs in general are pretty popular for all films these days so I'm not surprised that Disney makes a bigger deal out of them then they used to (which always felt more like they were created for the animators themselves rather than the audience).

True. I know Pocahontas was going to have Genie's lamp among the junk that Meeko has on Grandmother Willow, but it was cut out. I know it was due to how desperately Disney was trying to be serious with that movie, but I think the Genie lamp could've worked. I'm surprised that Mulan didn't have any Easter egg at all.

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Yeah, Flounder was disappointing in Moana. I'm still surprised they flat-out mentioned Sebastian in the end-credits scene but I guess Moana already had some very meta commentary like the princess reference and their next film (WIR2) would only jump on that bandwagon even more. It's a good thing Sebastian's reference is kept till the end because that's another example (at least to me) of a lesser film referencing a far superior one. It totally makes me want to switch movies to the better film being referenced, in this case TLM so Sebastian not being mentioned until literally the very end prevents from the danger of viewers switching films halfway through.

To be honest, I thought that Sebastian reference was cute on the nose and frankly superior to the Princess-comment from Maui earlier. I made totally sense, but I hated Tamatoa. I hated his design and characterization, though ironically enough, he had the very best song of the film. But fortuntately he was just an episodic cameo and not so much a part of the story.

And yeah, of course Mermaid is superior to Moana, yet frankly Moana had very obvious cues to Mermaid. I know we've talked about how derivative Disney are, but the Mermaid-influence on Moana was quite overt and obvious. Some claimed that it was due to how it was Musker and Clements last movie together and therefore it was a call back to their very iconic sea-movie.
I know there was a review that claimed that Hercules was essentially a remake of Mermaid with a male protagonist: http://www.reelviews.net/search/Hercules. However, while Moana was far from great, it still was a fairly decent movie and did have a couple of good components.

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I'm not that surprised that I love Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Tarzan because they parallel with TLM, BATB, and TLK (and as you said Tarzan sorta draws from both TLK and Pocahontas).

Really? You love Tarzan as well? I thought it wasn't right up your alley, due to it not being primarily a drama.

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Weird that I love Aladdin but not its direct parallel, Hercules. As many people say, Hercules is Aladdin on steroids so maybe that's why. The comic relief works in Aladdin because even though the Genie comes to dominate the middle part of the film, he has a lot of heart to him as well unlike any of the comic relief in Hercules. And one character (or two if you count Iago) is still pretty balanced for Aladdin whereas literally every character in Hercules, major and minor, are constantly whipping out zinger lines.

Well said. I know many people think Hercules is frenetic, due to how everything about it scream pop culture references, yet the difference between it and Aladdin is how Genie and Iago are basically the only characters that calls for it, whereas everything in Hercules snaps zinger lines. Yet I felt that Hercules is still more mellow and sappy than Aladdin was. I didn't know that you liked Aladdin as well.

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The Zeus in Hercules has a strong resemblance to the Zeus in Fantasia which is probably what they were more closely referencing. But you're right that Triton and Zeus have a lot in common design-wise and it's even more obvious with Ursula and Hades and even Genie and Phil. If I'm correct, Eric Goldberg animated Phil so that's another connection to the Genie.

Yeah, Triton and Zeus comparisons may be shallow, but they do somewhat resemble each other. Perhaps Ursula and Hades aren't exact replicas, but they do have a similar color scheme and both are comical villains. Eric Goldberg animated both Genie and Phil. It's remarkable that he's animated comedic sidekicks, yet he seems to praise Genie most. Perhaps due to that it probably was more fun to do the Genie, since he could morph into different characters.

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Jasmine, Esmeralda, and Meg tend to get compared a lot to each other, not just for being strong-willed and spitfires but also for the fact that all three very sexualized (Jasmine seducing Jafar, Frollo desiring Esmeralda, Meg seducing Hercules).

True. Lindsay Ellis (former Nostalgia Chick) has stated how the non-Caucasian Disney heroines in the 90's were way more sexualized than the white ones, yet I never thought of it before she said it. With the exception of Mulan, of course. While Meg is still Caucasian, she's still quite sexualized, as you said.
Yeah, it's fair to draw those comparisons between Jasmine, Esmeralda and Meg, since they're all seductive (to be fair, Esmeralda has her seductive qualities, since she has a slight moment where she seduces Frollo). But at least Jasmine and Esmeralda are more likely to be comparable, since they visually resemble each other (after all, they stem from a similar race). Yet regarding Meg's seducing moment, I thought it was extremely steamy and I'm surprised that it hasn't gotten as much flack.

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I think another hair color for Melody would be problematic though because if she has blonde or brown hair, suddenly it'll be weird for little kids that she has no resemblance whatsoever to either of her parents. It's not like Ariel's sisters are really well known or iconic enough in design to explain for why merpeople all look different from each other. I always felt Melody's design was skillfully done because she resembled a healthy mix of both her parents whereas usually a child is designed to completely resemble only one parent.

Fair enough. Just wondering, do you like The Little Mermaid II, btw?

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Tbh, all the CGI women look alike to me. Oops, you're right about Rapunzel's mother's name. I don't watch the TV series but I remember they gave her a name so when I was referencing her, I originally planned on just calling her Rapunzel's mother before thinking that I better use her real name. For some reason I thought Primrose was her given name, probably because the fandom used to use that for fanfics and fanart before the TV series. I forgot that Arianna was her given name. I think the King is called Frederic but I don't remember what the fandom used to call him.

Yup, he's called Frederic, as proven by Google. To be honest, I've never watched the series either, since the animation looks horrible and far from appealing.

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Honestly when I first saw Anna, I thought it was fanmade because it really did look like a poor redressing of Rapunzel. I was not pleased when I heard that Anna and Elsa's leaked images were in fact real since Elsa looked like a Disney Fairies reject like we said earlier.

True, they looked fanmade, though I remember that people said that Anna looked too much like a Rapunzel-look-a-like. But people weren't too keen about those pictures, anyway. But at least they looked better in those leaked pictures than they've done for the leaks of their sequel. I thought Moana was frankly the best looking of the Revival Princess, since she had some traits of an hand drawn character.

Btw, here are the articles about how some parents were baffled over Elsa's popularity; https://www.oregonlive.com/living/2014/10/halloween_princesses_prefer_fr.html. https://www.wsj.com/articles/elsa-dominates-anna-in-frozen-merchandise-sales-1415131605

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Oh don't worry, I didn't feel you were trashing Violet. As I said before, you're entitled to your own opinions and I hope you don't feel that you have to hide your feelings towards a film, character, song, etc. that you dislike just because I like it or vice-versa. I liked Incredibles 2 a lot but if you weren't a fan of the original then there probably isn't much about this film to recommend itself to you.

Aaaaw, thanks :)

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Yeah, Riley was very boring and even unlikable (although that part may have been on purpose because of how out of balance she is with Joy and Sadness fighting for dominion over her). Honestly, I think even a tertiary character like Andy resonates more than Riley ever did. I understand your point about Sadness' own arc. I'm curious if the makers ever thought about more carefully balancing her storyline with Joy's or if the plan was always to just focus on Joy's development.

Agreed, Riley was not particularly likable and was even a brat at times. And the comparison to Andy is at least legit, due to how Andy serves as being a similar archetype, yet Andy was at least more tolerable and enhanced, since he at least had a connection to Woody and their relationship was heartfelt and genuine.

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Sorry, what I meant to say earlier was that Elena was successful enough that Disney sees the merits in having a film based on a Hispanic princess. So Elena's popularity has paved the way for an actual Hispanic princess in a real Disney film rather than just a TV show. I realize from the way I worded it before that it sounded like I was saying that Disney felt Elena was popular enough that they should make a cinematic film for her.

That's all right. I know there has been several pleas about Disney having a Hispanic Princess, nonetheless, as there is for every nation, to be honest.

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The thing about Brandy's Cinderella was that it wasn't based on the Disney version but the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. Because Disney was making it though, they probably decided to change the dress (which is white in the original) to the blue that most people associate Cinderella with. It was never a direct adaptation or remake of the classic 1950 film the way the new Mermaid film is supposed to be.

Well said. It's hard to believe that Brandy was just eighteen when the film was released.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:49 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I know this is completely Deja Vu, but once again, sorry for my late reply. Though it's not as late as it could've been, but nonetheless ;)

Well you've never been as late as I have with my response that took six months or so to craft so I think you're good ;)

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OK. Many white Americans does that, though. It's truly a pity what history has done to the Native Americans.

Agreed.

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Oh, that's a pity, I was looking so much forward to the Disney Fairies book series :P I found the characters from the 2003 version to be more unlikable, to be honest. But do you remember the Peter Pan series from Saban? Peter was definitively both selfish and callous there.

I know which Peter Pan series you are referring to but I have never seen it myself. Honestly, Peter being selfish and callous is a very accurate portrayal of him in general.

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Well, the problem with Walt's Peter Pan is despite that it's deliberately about adult- vs. childhood, it still never fulfills it's potential. It has a premise that calls for development and arcs for the characters, yet very little of them do develop. The most overt ones are Wendy, who frankly becomes a surrogate adult at the end, and George Darling's, who's hatred for Pan is at least logically set up and his final arc is quite subdued, yet satisfying.
Peter Pan was perhaps not one of my true favorites as a child, yet I used to watch it regularly and I enjoyed it for what it was. As an adult I don't find it awful, but perhaps not right for it's time, since were it made today, it would've developed the characters more. I know that Walt was overall dissatisfied with the film, because it lacked heart and the characterization of Peter himself. Yet Peter Pan was more praised by the Disney artists and Disney historians than Alice in Wonderland was.

I never found George Darling a very sympathetic character so his role probably wasn't one that endeared me to the film anyway. You're right that he's one of the few characters who actively grows despite little screentime outside of the beginning and ending of the film. That's probably where the film fails since even Wendy, despite being the true protagonist, feels a bit sidelined at times when the audience should be following her journey since Peter is meant to be a static character. I think Alice got a lot of flack compared to Peter because this was a story that audiences had always expected Walt Disney would do. If I remember correctly, there was a point where he didn't even want to do it anymore because of how difficult it was to adapt but he felt that he had to because of audience expectations. It gets lots of flack for being episodic and lacking heart and emotion, but the original is like that too so I've always felt that those elements are part of the movie's strengths.

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True, but at least it was harder to see Pumbaa. I know there were rumors about Pumbaa being one of the Gargoyles on the Cathedral, but I think it's was an actual Gargoyle.

I've never heard about Pumbaa being one of the gargoyles in Notre Dame. Considering how faithful they tried to be to the architecture, I'm guessing that rumor isn't very true but probably what someone thought from how a traditional gargoyle was depicted. I can't imagine Pumbaa is an important enough character that they felt the need to make him an easter egg twice in the same film lol.

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True. I know Pocahontas was going to have Genie's lamp among the junk that Meeko has on Grandmother Willow, but it was cut out. I know it was due to how desperately Disney was trying to be serious with that movie, but I think the Genie lamp could've worked. I'm surprised that Mulan didn't have any Easter egg at all.

Idk, I feel like Genie's lamp would have thrown me out of the film if it had showed up just because of how serious and authentic Pocahontas tries to be. Yeah, I never realized that Mulan doesn't have any easter eggs. Maybe because it was the first film to be made in the Florida studio if I'm correct. I know Lilo & Stitch referenced Mulan though with a poster in Nani's room.

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To be honest, I thought that Sebastian reference was cute on the nose and frankly superior to the Princess-comment from Maui earlier. I made totally sense, but I hated Tamatoa. I hated his design and characterization, though ironically enough, he had the very best song of the film. But fortuntately he was just an episodic cameo and not so much a part of the story.

And yeah, of course Mermaid is superior to Moana, yet frankly Moana had very obvious cues to Mermaid. I know we've talked about how derivative Disney are, but the Mermaid-influence on Moana was quite overt and obvious. Some claimed that it was due to how it was Musker and Clements last movie together and therefore it was a call back to their very iconic sea-movie.
I know there was a review that claimed that Hercules was essentially a remake of Mermaid with a male protagonist: http://www.reelviews.net/search/Hercules. However, while Moana was far from great, it still was a fairly decent movie and did have a couple of good components.

Yeah, Tamatoa feels shoe-horned in but overall he doesn't have enough of a presence to justify an appearance in the film. His song gets hated a lot but I quite liked it as well. The Mermaid/Moana parallels are definitely apparent and so are the Aladdin/Hercules ones but I've never heard of people comparing Mermaid and Hercules. Thanks for posting that review but while the reviewer mentions that he feels that Hercules could be considered a remake of TLM, he doesn't really go into detail on why he thinks that to be the case. A pity, because I was curious as to why he felt that way.

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Really? You love Tarzan as well? I thought it wasn't right up your alley, due to it not being primarily a drama.

Oh, I love Tarzan. Part of it as nostalgia because it is the first ever Disney film I saw in theaters and I had a lot of merch for it, but I really do love the film. Tonally, I think it's the strongest Disney film after TLK and it really is well-balanced like the Renaissance Big 4. Would you not consider it a drama? It has comedy with Terk and Tantor but I would consider it to be a drama, or at least a coming-of-age one. Certainly more dramatic than Hercules and even Mulan which also steers too much into the comedy side of things.

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Well said. I know many people think Hercules is frenetic, due to how everything about it scream pop culture references, yet the difference between it and Aladdin is how Genie and Iago are basically the only characters that calls for it, whereas everything in Hercules snaps zinger lines. Yet I felt that Hercules is still more mellow and sappy than Aladdin was. I didn't know that you liked Aladdin as well.

When you say mellow and sappy to describe Hercules, do you feel it has more heart than in Aladdin or do you mean that you feel the emotions in Hercules are very contrived and cliche? I find the "heart" in Hercules to be very shallow compared to in Aladdin. Yes, even though Aladdin has a lot more comedy than I usually like, it is one of my favorites because of the characters, story, and setting and even with all the comedy, I find it balanced with a lot of emotion and heart as well. All six of the classic Disney Princess films are my favs.

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Yeah, Triton and Zeus comparisons may be shallow, but they do somewhat resemble each other. Perhaps Ursula and Hades aren't exact replicas, but they do have a similar color scheme and both are comical villains. Eric Goldberg animated both Genie and Phil. It's remarkable that he's animated comedic sidekicks, yet he seems to praise Genie most. Perhaps due to that it probably was more fun to do the Genie, since he could morph into different characters.

Funny how I always loved Ursula but I never cared much for Hades. Although I feel the same way about Triton and Zeus. Triton, for all his faults, is still a compelling and sympathetic character whereas I could never take Zeus seriously. He felt like he was too much comic relief for my taste. Yeah, I think Phil in general is not a very popular character which may also be why Eric Goldberg doesn't talk much about him. I never liked Phil myself.

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True. Lindsay Ellis (former Nostalgia Chick) has stated how the non-Caucasian Disney heroines in the 90's were way more sexualized than the white ones, yet I never thought of it before she said it. With the exception of Mulan, of course. While Meg is still Caucasian, she's still quite sexualized, as you said.
Yeah, it's fair to draw those comparisons between Jasmine, Esmeralda and Meg, since they're all seductive (to be fair, Esmeralda has her seductive qualities, since she has a slight moment where she seduces Frollo). But at least Jasmine and Esmeralda are more likely to be comparable, since they visually resemble each other (after all, they stem from a similar race). Yet regarding Meg's seducing moment, I thought it was extremely steamy and I'm surprised that it hasn't gotten as much flack.

You could throw in Ariel and Pocahontas as well to the list of 90s sexualized heroines (more in appearance than behavior though) and Jessica Rabbit too. Oh yeah, I forgot that Esmeralda has that earlier moment with Frollo. For some reason what was coming to mind was when he is in the cathedral with her and sniffing her hair but her whole dance scene would count. Meg's is probably the one that should be most controversial since she's actively working with the villain to seduce the hero and depower him.

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Fair enough. Just wondering, do you like The Little Mermaid II, btw?

I used to like TLMII a lot when I was younger because the first was my favorite film and I had a lot of merchandise for this version. I liked Melody and Ariel wasn't as sidelined as I was afraid she would be (the way Esmeralda or Lady are in THONDII or LATTII) and maybe because I liked Timon and Pumbaa, I ended up liking Tip and Dash as well. Flounder growing up wasn't something I cared much for and he felt like a completely different character. Morgana was a decent Ursula replacement but I found Undertow super annoying. Her stingrays were chilling characters though and worked as Flotsam and Jetsam replacements. The overall storyline though was just a retread of the first film but that wasn't something that bothered me much when I was a kid.

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Yup, he's called Frederic, as proven by Google. To be honest, I've never watched the series either, since the animation looks horrible and far from appealing.

Yeah, the animation looks terrible and I saw some shots of Rapunzel which were just horrifically bad lol. I have no love for the original film either to warrant watching the show.

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True, they looked fanmade, though I remember that people said that Anna looked too much like a Rapunzel-look-a-like. But people weren't too keen about those pictures, anyway. But at least they looked better in those leaked pictures than they've done for the leaks of their sequel. I thought Moana was frankly the best looking of the Revival Princess, since she had some traits of an hand drawn character.

Btw, here are the articles about how some parents were baffled over Elsa's popularity; https://www.oregonlive.com/living/2014/10/halloween_princesses_prefer_fr.html. https://www.wsj.com/articles/elsa-dominates-anna-in-frozen-merchandise-sales-1415131605

Oh, I actually didn't mind the leaked pictures for Frozen II. I don't remember anything that I felt was terribly done. Imo, all the CGI girls look better in their 2D concept art, Moana included. The best looking for me might be either Anna or Elsa. Thanks for posting those articles btw! I always wondered why Anna never caught on as much.

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Agreed, Riley was not particularly likable and was even a brat at times. And the comparison to Andy is at least legit, due to how Andy serves as being a similar archetype, yet Andy was at least more tolerable and enhanced, since he at least had a connection to Woody and their relationship was heartfelt and genuine.

Completely agree.

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That's all right. I know there has been several pleas about Disney having a Hispanic Princess, nonetheless, as there is for every nation, to be honest.

Yeah, I never expected a Polynesian "princess" since there was never much fan outcry or demand for one. Usually I've heard people want a Hispanic princess and now there's been lots of talk for a proper African one.

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Well said. It's hard to believe that Brandy was just eighteen when the film was released.

Yeah, I never knew Brandy was famous before. My intro to her was from the Cinderella film.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Well you've never been as late as I have with my response that took six months or so to craft so I think you're good

Thanks :)

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I know which Peter Pan series you are referring to but I have never seen it myself. Honestly, Peter being selfish and callous is a very accurate portrayal of him in general.

I used to see that show occasionally in my childhood, but I never went gaga for it. But what's remarkable is that it shows the Darling childrens life after NeverLand.

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I never found George Darling a very sympathetic character so his role probably wasn't one that endeared me to the film anyway. You're right that he's one of the few characters who actively grows despite little screentime outside of the beginning and ending of the film. That's probably where the film fails since even Wendy, despite being the true protagonist, feels a bit sidelined at times when the audience should be following her journey since Peter is meant to be a static character.

Well, while George Darling is not a very sympathetic character, at least he's the character with the biggest arc in the film. That's quite ironic due to his brief screentime.

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I know Lilo & Stitch referenced Mulan though with a poster in Nani's room.

Yeah, but that cameo is so brief that it's hard to catch :P Besides, that's not the only Mulan-reference in the film, as one cafe is called Mulan Wok.

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Thanks for posting that review but while the reviewer mentions that he feels that Hercules could be considered a remake of TLM, he doesn't really go into detail on why he thinks that to be the case. A pity, because I was curious as to why he felt that way.

You're welcome :) I guess he feels it that way due to how Mermaid and Hercules are essentially about the protagonist wanting a litteral transformation. In Mermaid Ariel yearns to become a human, whereas Herc yearns to become a God. Besides, both are gingers and have a similar fathers and villains.

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Oh, I love Tarzan. Part of it as nostalgia because it is the first ever Disney film I saw in theaters and I had a lot of merch for it, but I really do love the film. Tonally, I think it's the strongest Disney film after TLK and it really is well-balanced like the Renaissance Big 4. Would you not consider it a drama? It has comedy with Terk and Tantor but I would consider it to be a drama, or at least a coming-of-age one. Certainly more dramatic than Hercules and even Mulan which also steers too much into the comedy side of things.

Really? But do you remember a lot of your viewing?

I've always felt that Tarzan was a pretty even mix of drama, comedy, action and romance and it felt more emotionally cohesive as the early Renaissance film. Yet truth to be told, later viewings made realize that Tarzan is not as dramatically even as it wants to be. Yeah, it has moments of drama, but they are just here and there. I could live through Terk, unlike the majority of people, but I hated Tantor and most of the slapstick comedy. Either way, Tarzan is the most solid film after The Lion King and despite that I've never gone crazy for it, I liked it a lot when I saw it theatrically and have a lot of good memories with it.

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When you say mellow and sappy to describe Hercules, do you feel it has more heart than in Aladdin or do you mean that you feel the emotions in Hercules are very contrived and cliche? I find the "heart" in Hercules to be very shallow compared to in Aladdin. Yes, even though Aladdin has a lot more comedy than I usually like, it is one of my favorites because of the characters, story, and setting and even with all the comedy, I find it balanced with a lot of emotion and heart as well. All six of the classic Disney Princess films are my favs.

Exactly. I felt the emotion in Hercules to be very contrived and cliche. I didn't mind that Disney reused the outcast-trope through the nineties, but the late Renaissance films were getting too overt with it. In Hercules it felt too contrived and sappy. The emotion in Aladdin is done right, compared to Hercules. Besides, in Hercules the outcast-trope is just as contrived, despite that Herc himself does have legitimate reason for being an outcast. It just feels shoehorned in for the sake of being shoehorned in.

Speaking of how the late nineties features were essentially remakes of their predecessors, I've probably mentioned it before, but I always thought that Mulan was somewhat of a remake of Pocahontas. Perhaps they're not exactly identical, but both have certains components in common: Both have non-Caucasian title characters and both are essentially about invasion and a conflict between two different races. And both have grandmothers and sidekicks.

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Funny how I always loved Ursula but I never cared much for Hades. Although I feel the same way about Triton and Zeus. Triton, for all his faults, is still a compelling and sympathetic character whereas I could never take Zeus seriously. He felt like he was too much comic relief for my taste. Yeah, I think Phil in general is not a very popular character which may also be why Eric Goldberg doesn't talk much about him. I never liked Phil myself.

I never went gaga for Hades, but he's frankly a well done character and very entertaining. The same goes for Ursula. I happened to like Zeus a lot when I saw the film and thought that he was one of the best characters in the film. I used to like Phil to a certain degree as well.

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You could throw in Ariel and Pocahontas as well to the list of 90s sexualized heroines (more in appearance than behavior though) and Jessica Rabbit too. Oh yeah, I forgot that Esmeralda has that earlier moment with Frollo. For some reason what was coming to mind was when he is in the cathedral with her and sniffing her hair but her whole dance scene would count. Meg's is probably the one that should be most controversial since she's actively working with the villain to seduce the hero and depower him..

Oh yeah, Jessica Rabbit is the epitome of sexualization and there's no reason for why she's been mentioned by reviewers and film historians! Pocahontas was indeed sexualized, but to be fair, she's still not as seductive as her counterparts (which wouldn't have suited her character, since she was a goody-two-shoes).
I think Esmeralda was the epitome of sexualization of a Disney heroine and there's never been a heroine that is as sexualized as her. Yet your reasons are the reasons for why I'm baffled by why Meg hasn't received as much flack, since she was supposed to be a villain's henchmen, anyways. What's remarkable is that Meg is the first Disney heroine who's given a past and a former boyfriend.

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I used to like TLMII a lot when I was younger because the first was my favorite film and I had a lot of merchandise for this version. I liked Melody and Ariel wasn't as sidelined as I was afraid she would be (the way Esmeralda or Lady are in THONDII or LATTII) and maybe because I liked Timon and Pumbaa, I ended up liking Tip and Dash as well. Flounder growing up wasn't something I cared much for and he felt like a completely different character. Morgana was a decent Ursula replacement but I found Undertow super annoying. Her stingrays were chilling characters though and worked as Flotsam and Jetsam replacements. The overall storyline though was just a retread of the first film but that wasn't something that bothered me much when I was a kid.

Okay, but do you still like it?

Well, truth to be told, The Little Mermaid II is not a very good movie. But to be fair, it does have a couple of redeeming qualities. At least the songs are not bad and I like that Melody, unlike Ariel, is given a resonant device to yearn for the sea (despite that the plot for the movie is bascially a reversed version of it's predecessor). I also like the mother/daughter dynamic, that was at least genuine and heartfelt, despite falling into contrivances (yeah, we all know about the ongoing criticism about Disney's tacklings of mother/daughter relationships). Yet Eric, for all the rants about him being bland and dull, is sidelinded in this film.
Tip and Dash were okay, but just like you, I kept comparing them to Timon and Pumbaa. Flounder growing up was baffling, reminding you that he was supposed to be a child in the first one. Undertow had his moments, yet he was never a character that stole the show either. As for Morgana, she's obviously given a reason to sympathize for her (her being sidelinded), yet unfortunately Morgana ends up being just a one-dimensional villain who's defeated in the end. I liked that Melody, despite not defeating the villain, was active at the climax.

As for what I dislike about the film, I dislike the juvenile comedy and frankly how Sebastian (despite never being my favorite character) was an inferior version of himself and even was more selfish in this movie. Scuttle, who at least was somewhat endearing in the first one, was pretty grating here. I thought Melody was fairly bland as well. The score was also pretty meh. And what's up with Melody just accepting the negative bullshit the other kids are saying about her and her being so easy to include them afterwards? She's a Princess, for goodness sake, so she could've scolded them.

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Thanks for posting those articles btw! I always wondered why Anna never caught on as much.

Mostly due to how she doesn't have an intense struggle like her sister. But that proves how sadness in art tend to reasonate more than it does in real life, where sadness is usually scolded or perceived as a weakness. You know what? I remember there was a user on IMDb that posted that he/she wished that Frozen was about Anna and the other characters, because the stuff revolving Elsa was so depressing and he/she claimed that Disney movies were supposed to be happy. Yeah, right :P

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Yeah, I never expected a Polynesian "princess" since there was never much fan outcry or demand for one. Usually I've heard people want a Hispanic princess and now there's been lots of talk for a proper African one.

True. Moana was originally going to be about Maui before changing it. Yet I found it really hypocritical how they wanted to launch a Polynesian Princess and afterwards desperately detracting her from the Princess stamp. Yet what differentiates Moana from Lilo & Stitch is that at least it has a different Polynesian location and is more tribal.

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Yeah, I never knew Brandy was famous before. My intro to her was from the Cinderella film.

Really? OK. My into to hear was through Moesha, which was released when I was a tween. I remember her for her music as well, so I was surprised when I saw a promo that she was Cinderella, haha.

Just wondering, would you like a sequel to Inside Out?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:15 am 
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I used to see that show occasionally in my childhood, but I never went gaga for it. But what's remarkable is that it shows the Darling childrens life after NeverLand.

That's neat! I wasn't aware of that. Most adaptations don't really get into their lives after the initial visit to Neverland.

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Well, while George Darling is not a very sympathetic character, at least he's the character with the biggest arc in the film. That's quite ironic due to his brief screentime.

Yeah, it's funny how George Darling gets the most development compared to the scene-stealers or actual protagonists of the film.

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Yeah, but that cameo is so brief that it's hard to catch :P Besides, that's not the only Mulan-reference in the film, as one cafe is called Mulan Wok.

I've heard about the Mulan Wok easter egg but I don't remember which scene that occurs in. Is it in one of the montage scenes?

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You're welcome :) I guess he feels it that way due to how Mermaid and Hercules are essentially about the protagonist wanting a litteral transformation. In Mermaid Ariel yearns to become a human, whereas Herc yearns to become a God. Besides, both are gingers and have a similar fathers and villains.

I guess the transformation thing doesn't really feel like something unique to TLM and Hercules because we have the Beast who wants to become human again (not to mention the objects), Aladdin wants to become a prince, and you could even throw in Quasimodo who wants to become handsome. The other points are valid though.

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Really? But do you remember a lot of your viewing?

I've always felt that Tarzan was a pretty even mix of drama, comedy, action and romance and it felt more emotionally cohesive as the early Renaissance film. Yet truth to be told, later viewings made realize that Tarzan is not as dramatically even as it wants to be. Yeah, it has moments of drama, but they are just here and there. I could live through Terk, unlike the majority of people, but I hated Tantor and most of the slapstick comedy. Either way, Tarzan is the most solid film after The Lion King and despite that I've never gone crazy for it, I liked it a lot when I saw it theatrically and have a lot of good memories with it.

No, I don't really remember the movie from my first viewing at all. I remember watching Fantasia 2000, Dinosaur, and The Emperor's New Groove though because I'd have been a few months older by then. My favorite scenes of Fantasia 2000 were always Rhapsody in Blue and the Firebird Suite. Dinosaur was a decent film but not one that captivated me. TENG really didn't resonate with me because the humor went off the top of my head and it felt so atypical to a regular Disney movie that I was turned off. The very intro of the film (where Kuzco is in the rain and narrating) was enough to tell me that this film was not for me lol, at least not back then.

Funny because most people hate Terk and are neutral towards Tantor. I always liked both of them especially since I like neurotic characters like Tantor (I like Rex from Toy Story a lot as well). The opening and ending of the film are both pretty dark between the deaths of Kala and Kerchak's son and Tarzan's parents, not to mention Clayton's hanging. I'm glad Disney pushed past their comfort level to create those scenes because I don't think we'd see them doing that in any of their current films. I'm glad you had good memories when you saw Tarzan theatrically :)


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Exactly. I felt the emotion in Hercules to be very contrived and cliche. I didn't mind that Disney reused the outcast-trope through the nineties, but the late Renaissance films were getting too overt with it. In Hercules it felt too contrived and sappy. The emotion in Aladdin is done right, compared to Hercules. Besides, in Hercules the outcast-trope is just as contrived, despite that Herc himself does have legitimate reason for being an outcast. It just feels shoehorned in for the sake of being shoehorned in.

Speaking of how the late nineties features were essentially remakes of their predecessors, I've probably mentioned it before, but I always thought that Mulan was somewhat of a remake of Pocahontas. Perhaps they're not exactly identical, but both have certains components in common: Both have non-Caucasian title characters and both are essentially about invasion and a conflict between two different races. And both have grandmothers and sidekicks.

Thanks for explaining what you meant about the emotion in Hercules! I feel exactly the same way as you do. It feels way too tacked on in Hercules like they knew they had to include emotion so they just create scenes that go through the movements without any actual attachment to the characters or the viewers. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels that way about the film.

Yeah, I can see why Mulan can be considered a remake of Pocahontas although it could also be considered another attempt at remaking Aladdin after Hercules. It's better at mixing drama and comedy than Hercules was (although still not as successful as in Aladdin) and casting a big actor as an anachronistic sidekick who takes over and changes the tone of the film is apparent here as well. Both films are set in Oriental settings as well. Going back to Mulan and Pocahontas, it's funny how the former is a war movie but the latter is all about creating peace to stop war. Even though technically Mulan does have two races (the Chinese and the Huns), I feel that the racial conflict trope that starts out in Pocahontas is more apparent in Hunchback than it ever is in Mulan. In both films, we see good and bad characters from both sides, but in Mulan, the Huns are depicted as this almost demonic or monstrous type of creatures. It's very one-sided and hasn't aged well imo, regardless of how people feel that the ethnic minorities were treated in Pocahontas and Hunchback.

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I never went gaga for Hades, but he's frankly a well done character and very entertaining. The same goes for Ursula. I happened to like Zeus a lot when I saw the film and thought that he was one of the best characters in the film. I used to like Phil to a certain degree as well.

James Woods portraying Hades has soured me on the character as well since Woods is very possessive about the character and has made sure to always reprise the role. He's despicable as a human being so it's hard for me to separate the two. What did you like about Zeus? He never left too much of an impression on me although he certainly had more of an impact on the film than Hera who could easily be cut out entirely.

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Oh yeah, Jessica Rabbit is the epitome of sexualization and there's no reason for why she's been mentioned by reviewers and film historians! Pocahontas was indeed sexualized, but to be fair, she's still not as seductive as her counterparts (which wouldn't have suited her character, since she was a goody-two-shoes).
I think Esmeralda was the epitome of sexualization of a Disney heroine and there's never been a heroine that is as sexualized as her. Yet your reasons are the reasons for why I'm baffled by why Meg hasn't received as much flack, since she was supposed to be a villain's henchmen, anyways. What's remarkable is that Meg is the first Disney heroine who's given a past and a former boyfriend.

Pocahontas is probably more "sexualized" from her appearance and steamy romance with John Smith than her actual actions. She never tries to seduce a character the way Jasmine, Esmeralda, or Meg try to do. I've heard people say that Pocahontas as a person actually comes off as very asexual like the classic princesses. Yeah, Esmeralda really is the epitome of a sexualized Disney heroine, for better or for worse. Demi Moore's casting is probably a big part of that. I've heard people suggest that Meg's lack of inclusion in the DP line (especially since she was never even originally part of it like Esmeralda was or considered to join like Jane briefly was) is because of her shady past and working with the villain. The fact that Disney uses her as Hades' assistant in one of their Disney Villains shows probably tells us that they don't consider her to be princess material.

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Okay, but do you still like it?

Well, truth to be told, The Little Mermaid II is not a very good movie. But to be fair, it does have a couple of redeeming qualities. At least the songs are not bad and I like that Melody, unlike Ariel, is given a resonant device to yearn for the sea (despite that the plot for the movie is bascially a reversed version of it's predecessor). I also like the mother/daughter dynamic, that was at least genuine and heartfelt, despite falling into contrivances (yeah, we all know about the ongoing criticism about Disney's tacklings of mother/daughter relationships). Yet Eric, for all the rants about him being bland and dull, is sidelinded in this film.
Tip and Dash were okay, but just like you, I kept comparing them to Timon and Pumbaa. Flounder growing up was baffling, reminding you that he was supposed to be a child in the first one. Undertow had his moments, yet he was never a character that stole the show either. As for Morgana, she's obviously given a reason to sympathize for her (her being sidelinded), yet unfortunately Morgana ends up being just a one-dimensional villain who's defeated in the end. I liked that Melody, despite not defeating the villain, was active at the climax.

As for what I dislike about the film, I dislike the juvenile comedy and frankly how Sebastian (despite never being my favorite character) was an inferior version of himself and even was more selfish in this movie. Scuttle, who at least was somewhat endearing in the first one, was pretty grating here. I thought Melody was fairly bland as well. The score was also pretty meh. And what's up with Melody just accepting the negative bullshit the other kids are saying about her and her being so easy to include them afterwards? She's a Princess, for goodness sake, so she could've scolded them.

I don't like TLMII very much anymore except for nostalgic reasons. I still like the songs a lot though and they're some of the best from the cheapquels. I also loved Melody's locket. Yeah, Eric feels very invisible in the movie. He was basically just included because they had to and the fact that his voice actor didn't return makes him feel even more marginalized. Adult Flounder just wasn't believable to me, but I'm curious as to why you felt that Sebastian and Scuttle were lesser versions of themselves. I really liked Melody's role in the climax too. I've heard lots of people complain about Melody's treatment by her less royal peers. It feels shoehorned in so that the audience will feel sympathetic for her running away but it belongs in a high school movie, not in a Disney Princess film.

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Mostly due to how she doesn't have an intense struggle like her sister. But that proves how sadness in art tend to reasonate more than it does in real life, where sadness is usually scolded or perceived as a weakness. You know what? I remember there was a user on IMDb that posted that he/she wished that Frozen was about Anna and the other characters, because the stuff revolving Elsa was so depressing and he/she claimed that Disney movies were supposed to be happy. Yeah, right :P

Lol, that IMDB user sounds very tonedeaf to his/her own remarks. What you said about sadness in art resonating more with people than in real life is very accurate. I guess real feelings are just too much for people to want to deal with, so it's more cathartic to deal with them through a fictional character.

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True. Moana was originally going to be about Maui before changing it. Yet I found it really hypocritical how they wanted to launch a Polynesian Princess and afterwards desperately detracting her from the Princess stamp. Yet what differentiates Moana from Lilo & Stitch is that at least it has a different Polynesian location and is more tribal.

I wasn't aware that Moana was supposed to be about Maui at first. Thanks for sharing that info! I wouldn't be surprised if Disney changed it to a female protagonist because they felt she'd sell more merch. Well, Moana has become an official DP now so I find it more hypocritical that in marketing they constantly mentioned that she is not a princess but now she is one. I mean, even in the movie they felt the need for her to say that so it just comes across as even more hypocritical than making Merida an official DP. There's tons of crossover fanart with Moana and Lilo & Stitch because of the similar settings.

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Really? OK. My into to hear was through Moesha, which was released when I was a tween. I remember her for her music as well, so I was surprised when I saw a promo that she was Cinderella, haha.

Yeah, I wasn't even aware of Moesha until a year or two ago lol. I was watching her on a morning show interview and that's when I first heard about the show. I had no idea that she was famous before Cinderella which I honestly thought was her debut. The show was before my time so that's probably why.

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Just wondering, would you like a sequel to Inside Out?

Inside Out isn't really my favorite but out of all of Pixar's new films, it's probably the one that lends itself best to a sequel. Even though I prefer Coco as a film, I don't think that one really works with a sequel and nobody wants to see a sequel for The Good Dinosaur lol. That leaves Brave but the film wasn't a big enough hit to warrant one most likely. I'd be curious how they explore the sequel for Inside Out and it may get me to like the original more if it's well-done which it probably well be knowing Pixar's reputation. Pete Docter seems very averse to sequels since none of his films have had any yet. Even Monsters got a prequel which he didn't direct and I think he had little involvement with it. Maybe that's why Inside Out hasn't gotten an announced sequel yet because Docter is not interested.

Speaking of Pixar sequels, would you be interested in a Monsters, Inc. sequel? Lots of fans ask Docter about it all the time and he's claimed that it's not out of the question. Personally I'd love to see Boo reunited with Mike and Sulley and I think a proper sequel would get more love than a prequel, especially if Pete Docter returned for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:17 pm 
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That's neat! I wasn't aware of that. Most adaptations don't really get into their lives after the initial visit to Neverland.

Word. But as I said, it's been a while since I've seen the show.

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Yeah, it's funny how George Darling gets the most development compared to the scene-stealers or actual protagonists of the film.

Yup. Yet at least his arc was needed, after all, at since he was a Pan-hater from the get-go.

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I've heard about the Mulan Wok easter egg but I don't remember which scene that occurs in. Is it in one of the montage scenes?

Here it is; https://www.google.no/search?q=lilo+and ... 80&bih=574

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I guess the transformation thing doesn't really feel like something unique to TLM and Hercules because we have the Beast who wants to become human again (not to mention the objects), Aladdin wants to become a prince, and you could even throw in Quasimodo who wants to become handsome. The other points are valid though.

Fair enough, but since both Mermaid and Hercules are Musker and Clements properties, it's enough to compare them for those reasons. But frankly, Beasts and Quasimodo's yearnings for their own transformations are less overt than Ariel and Hercules. At least their yearnings are understated.

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Funny because most people hate Terk and are neutral towards Tantor.

True, when I feels the opposite way. I know there were criticisms against Rosie O'Donnell getting the part for mandatory reasons.

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The opening and ending of the film are both pretty dark between the deaths of Kala and Kerchak's son and Tarzan's parents, not to mention Clayton's hanging. I'm glad Disney pushed past their comfort level to create those scenes because I don't think we'd see them doing that in any of their current films. I'm glad you had good memories when you saw Tarzan theatrically

True, but frankly Tarzan is not as graphic as you would think. Both those deaths happen off-screen and when I saw the film, I was dissapointed by the film not showing the demise of the parents (have I mentioned this before?) At least with Clayton you'll see the shadow, yet it's a brutal death. But for all the various deaths (which there are in the movie), Tarzan is pretty lighthearted overall, imo.

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Thanks for explaining what you meant about the emotion in Hercules! I feel exactly the same way as you do. It feels way too tacked on in Hercules like they knew they had to include emotion so they just create scenes that go through the movements without any actual attachment to the characters or the viewers. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels that way about the film.

You're welcome. And agreed. The emotion in Aladdin feels genuine, because it's not too sappy or po-faced. Which makes it more sincere, whereas in Hercules it feels too sappy and tacked on.

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Yeah, I can see why Mulan can be considered a remake of Pocahontas although it could also be considered another attempt at remaking Aladdin after Hercules. It's better at mixing drama and comedy than Hercules was (although still not as successful as in Aladdin) and casting a big actor as an anachronistic sidekick who takes over and changes the tone of the film is apparent here as well. Both films are set in Oriental settings as well.

True. The similarities between Aladdin and Mulan are overt and obvious, but mostly due to how both have an anachronistic sidekick who's voiced by a big actor. And since they both have Oriental settings, it's enough to compare them. But truth to be told, Mushu is probably the most prominent sidekick since the Genie and spends more time with Mulan than the other sidekicks and therefore gets his characterization fleshed out. So the comparison is not completely just for shallow purposes.

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Going back to Mulan and Pocahontas, it's funny how the former is a war movie but the latter is all about creating peace to stop war. Even though technically Mulan does have two races (the Chinese and the Huns), I feel that the racial conflict trope that starts out in Pocahontas is more apparent in Hunchback than it ever is in Mulan. In both films, we see good and bad characters from both sides, but in Mulan, the Huns are depicted as this almost demonic or monstrous type of creatures. It's very one-sided and hasn't aged well imo, regardless of how people feel that the ethnic minorities were treated in Pocahontas and Hunchback.

Agreed, but there's barely been a rant about that one-sided portrayal. We all know the fuzz was about regarding Pocahontas and somewhat Hunchback, but barely any for Mulan. Otherwise, while Hunchback showed the two sides of the conflict, it still managed to portray the gypsies as a persecuted minority and the movie sides with them at the end. As evidenced when the Parisians frees the Gypsies at the climax.

Speaking of Mulan, I remember reading a fan-fiction story long ago that was pretty akin to Mulan (unfortunately I haven't been able to find it ever since) and pretty much was an Incan version of it: It was about an Mestiza girl during the Incan Empire who was an outcast among both the Spaniards and the Incas for being a Mestiza. Yet she learns the fighting skills of the Spaniards and helps the Incas in their war. It was a pretty one-sided portrayal that demonized the Spaniards (but let's be real, it was mostly true to life). Perhaps no wonder why DreamWorks' The Road to El Dorado avoided this (despite that Spirit Stallion of the Cimarron didn't).

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What did you like about Zeus? He never left too much of an impression on me although he certainly had more of an impact on the film than Hera who could easily be cut out entirely.

No offense, but I've already told you why. He was jolly and fun and therefore somewhat endearing. Though I'm not so gaga for him anymore.

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I don't like TLMII very much anymore except for nostalgic reasons. I still like the songs a lot though and they're some of the best from the cheapquels. I also loved Melody's locket. Yeah, Eric feels very invisible in the movie. He was basically just included because they had to and the fact that his voice actor didn't return makes him feel even more marginalized. Adult Flounder just wasn't believable to me, but I'm curious as to why you felt that Sebastian and Scuttle were lesser versions of themselves.

Well, not to be mean, but I've already said why about Scuttle. He was just as dimwitted, but completely absent of his charm and endearing personality (despite that I've never been gaga about him in the first place). But I see that I didn't elaborate on Sebastian; He was just plain selfish, which was mostly proven when he blurts to Ariel that Melody had escaped. He just acted like a victim, but just for his own selfish purposes.

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I've heard lots of people complain about Melody's treatment by her less royal peers. It feels shoehorned in so that the audience will feel sympathetic for her running away but it belongs in a high school movie, not in a Disney Princess film.

True, but even a Disney character can stand up to bullies. Just look at Belle, Aladdin and even Quasimodo.

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Lol, that IMDB user sounds very tonedeaf to his/her own remarks.

Tell me about it. But there are a lot of those through the Internet and in the world in general, it makes me feel guilty about making fun of them, when they most likely can't help it.

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What you said about sadness in art resonating more with people than in real life is very accurate. I guess real feelings are just too much for people to want to deal with, so it's more cathartic to deal with them through a fictional character.

True, but that's one of the hypocrisies of life. Life and humans has a tendency to oppress sadness, whereas in art it becomes more acceptable. Of course not every single time, but usually.

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I wasn't aware that Moana was supposed to be about Maui at first. Thanks for sharing that info! I wouldn't be surprised if Disney changed it to a female protagonist because they felt she'd sell more merch. Well, Moana has become an official DP now so I find it more hypocritical that in marketing they constantly mentioned that she is not a princess but now she is one. I mean, even in the movie they felt the need for her to say that so it just comes across as even more hypocritical than making Merida an official DP. There's tons of crossover fanart with Moana and Lilo & Stitch because of the similar settings.

True. You're welcome. The switch of Moana's protagonist is pretty well known, but wonder if the movie would still be a musical they actually went with Maui as the lead. But we all know that Disney has a mandatory policy to make their heroines Princesses due to the Princess line, which makes Disney's stamp with fairy tales more relevant than ever! I've seen the fanarts, but at least both Lilo & Stitch and Moana are distinctive enough to differentiate from two different mediums.

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Inside Out isn't really my favorite but out of all of Pixar's new films, it's probably the one that lends itself best to a sequel. Even though I prefer Coco as a film, I don't think that one really works with a sequel and nobody wants to see a sequel for The Good Dinosaur lol. That leaves Brave but the film wasn't a big enough hit to warrant one most likely. I'd be curious how they explore the sequel for Inside Out and it may get me to like the original more if it's well-done which it probably well be knowing Pixar's reputation. Pete Docter seems very averse to sequels since none of his films have had any yet. Even Monsters got a prequel which he didn't direct and I think he had little involvement with it. Maybe that's why Inside Out hasn't gotten an announced sequel yet because Docter is not interested.

To be honest, I personally wouldn't mind a sequel for Brave, or at least some form of continuation, as long as we get a script that's better and actually would be clever with the fairy tale genre. I know Pixar purists loathe sequels in general. And yes, Inside Out lends itself to a sequel, though one would wonder how much complexity they would add to the story, since the premise is an adult one. Many reviewers has stated that Inside Out lends best to the adults, yet I felt that Inside Out was still, regardless of it's layered storytelling and complexity, quite juvenile even by Pixar standards.

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Speaking of Pixar sequels, would you be interested in a Monsters, Inc. sequel? Lots of fans ask Docter about it all the time and he's claimed that it's not out of the question. Personally I'd love to see Boo reunited with Mike and Sulley and I think a proper sequel would get more love than a prequel, especially if Pete Docter returned for it.

I wouldn't mind it, despite that I never went gaga for Monsters Inc to begin with.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:30 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Yup. Yet at least his arc was needed, after all, at since he was a Pan-hater from the get-go.

I can see that.

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Thanks for posting!

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Fair enough, but since both Mermaid and Hercules are Musker and Clements properties, it's enough to compare them for those reasons. But frankly, Beasts and Quasimodo's yearnings for their own transformations are less overt than Ariel and Hercules. At least their yearnings are understated.

Quasi's transformation I agree is less overt but I think Beast's is the most obvious besides Ariel's. Certainly more than Hercules' transformation into a God especially since he ends up rejecting godhood at the end.

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True, when I feels the opposite way. I know there were criticisms against Rosie O'Donnell getting the part for mandatory reasons.

If nothing else, I found it refreshing that we had a female sidekick for once, besides Mrs. Potts.

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True, but frankly Tarzan is not as graphic as you would think. Both those deaths happen off-screen and when I saw the film, I was dissapointed by the film not showing the demise of the parents (have I mentioned this before?) At least with Clayton you'll see the shadow, yet it's a brutal death. But for all the various deaths (which there are in the movie), Tarzan is pretty lighthearted overall, imo.

I think showcasing the violent deaths of the parents would have been too much. As it is, you can see their remains in the background when Kala finds baby Tarzan which I'm surprised Disney did. Clayton's death is still more overt than the typical Disney death where a villain falls to his/her death from a high ledge or cliff. I guess I don't find Tarzan that lighthearted in comparison to Hercules and Mulan although Mulan does have that scene where the village is massacred and all the soldiers are dead.

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You're welcome. And agreed. The emotion in Aladdin feels genuine, because it's not too sappy or po-faced. Which makes it more sincere, whereas in Hercules it feels too sappy and tacked on.

Perfectly agree.

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True. The similarities between Aladdin and Mulan are overt and obvious, but mostly due to how both have an anachronistic sidekick who's voiced by a big actor. And since they both have Oriental settings, it's enough to compare them. But truth to be told, Mushu is probably the most prominent sidekick since the Genie and spends more time with Mulan than the other sidekicks and therefore gets his characterization fleshed out. So the comparison is not completely just for shallow purposes.

Phil though has a pretty big role too and while he's absent from the Herc/Meg scenes, he's never far behind to come up and disturb them, much to Meg's annoyance.

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Agreed, but there's barely been a rant about that one-sided portrayal. We all know the fuzz was about regarding Pocahontas and somewhat Hunchback, but barely any for Mulan. Otherwise, while Hunchback showed the two sides of the conflict, it still managed to portray the gypsies as a persecuted minority and the movie sides with them at the end. As evidenced when the Parisians frees the Gypsies at the climax.

Speaking of Mulan, I remember reading a fan-fiction story long ago that was pretty akin to Mulan (unfortunately I haven't been able to find it ever since) and pretty much was an Incan version of it: It was about an Mestiza girl during the Incan Empire who was an outcast among both the Spaniards and the Incas for being a Mestiza. Yet she learns the fighting skills of the Spaniards and helps the Incas in their war. It was a pretty one-sided portrayal that demonized the Spaniards (but let's be real, it was mostly true to life). Perhaps no wonder why DreamWorks' The Road to El Dorado avoided this (despite that Spirit Stallion of the Cimarron didn't).

Funny how Mulan doesn't get much flack for the portrayal of the Huns. I've heard some Mongolians hate that depiction though. That's a really neat fanfic and yeah, I can see why they demonized the Spanish lol. It's too bad the Incan setting was wasted on TENG and not something more historically accurate like Kingdom of the Sun would have been.

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No offense, but I've already told you why. He was jolly and fun and therefore somewhat endearing. Though I'm not so gaga for him anymore.

Oh, I thought you might like him more beyond him just being "jolly and fun." I feel like a lot of Disney characters could be typecast that way so no wonder I don't find him particularly unique.

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Well, not to be mean, but I've already said why about Scuttle. He was just as dimwitted, but completely absent of his charm and endearing personality (despite that I've never been gaga about him in the first place). But I see that I didn't elaborate on Sebastian; He was just plain selfish, which was mostly proven when he blurts to Ariel that Melody had escaped. He just acted like a victim, but just for his own selfish purposes.

I didn't really find Scuttle much different from the first film so I was wondering if you had a specific example. Maybe he's caricatured more but I haven't seen the film in a long time to remember. He certainly comes in handy at the end when Ariel and Flounder tell him to get help. I never found Sebastian selfish though, at least not to the extent of Mushu in Mulan II.

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True, but even a Disney character can stand up to bullies. Just look at Belle, Aladdin and even Quasimodo.

Except Belle, Aladdin, and Quasi weren't dealing with peers of their age mocking them for typical teen stuff. They could have gone that route with Belle and the Bimbettes but the Bimbettes never trash talk her in the film. And with the three characters you listed, it could still work because none of them are royal unlike Melody so your point doesn't really stand there. Melody is not a peasant like the rest of them.

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Tell me about it. But there are a lot of those through the Internet and in the world in general, it makes me feel guilty about making fun of them, when they most likely can't help it.

I see.

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True, but that's one of the hypocrisies of life. Life and humans has a tendency to oppress sadness, whereas in art it becomes more acceptable. Of course not every single time, but usually.

Yes, I can see that.

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True. You're welcome. The switch of Moana's protagonist is pretty well known, but wonder if the movie would still be a musical they actually went with Maui as the lead. But we all know that Disney has a mandatory policy to make their heroines Princesses due to the Princess line, which makes Disney's stamp with fairy tales more relevant than ever! I've seen the fanarts, but at least both Lilo & Stitch and Moana are distinctive enough to differentiate from two different mediums.

Yes, good point at the end there.

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To be honest, I personally wouldn't mind a sequel for Brave, or at least some form of continuation, as long as we get a script that's better and actually would be clever with the fairy tale genre. I know Pixar purists loathe sequels in general. And yes, Inside Out lends itself to a sequel, though one would wonder how much complexity they would add to the story, since the premise is an adult one. Many reviewers has stated that Inside Out lends best to the adults, yet I felt that Inside Out was still, regardless of it's layered storytelling and complexity, quite juvenile even by Pixar standards.

Yeah, Inside Out felt juvenile to me too for the reasons we've said before. Nice to hear your thoughts on a Brave sequel.

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I wouldn't mind it, despite that I never went gaga for Monsters Inc to begin with.

If Pete Docter made a sequel, I'd rather he make one for Monsters than Inside Out personally.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:25 pm 
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Thanks for posting!

You're welcome.

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Quasi's transformation I agree is less overt but I think Beast's is the most obvious besides Ariel's. Certainly more than Hercules' transformation into a God especially since he ends up rejecting godhood at the end.

True. It's funny how simultaneously both Hercules and Anastasia has both of their title characters getting what they truly wanted and rejecting them at the expense of their love interests who betrayed them and redeemed themselves. Yet people have ranted about why Megara wasn't made a goddess. And if you truly think about it, why wants Hercules to join a father that he's barely began to know? :P

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If nothing else, I found it refreshing that we had a female sidekick for once (in Terk), besides Mrs. Potts.

Fair enough. I don't know if I've said this before, but I remember the early fansites for Tarzan back on it's release confirmed that she was going to be a boy. So I thought that Rosie O'Donnell being the voice wouldn't affect the gender, yet I was astonished when I learned that Terk was a girl after all (which has confused some users and is made even fun of in the series). However, Wreck-It-Ralph could've been close as having a similar dynamic between a male lead and a sidekick, though it ended up being a derivative trope during the entire Revival era.

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I think showcasing the violent deaths of the parents would have been too much. As it is, you can see their remains in the background when Kala finds baby Tarzan which I'm surprised Disney did. Clayton's death is still more overt than the typical Disney death where a villain falls to his/her death from a high ledge or cliff. I guess I don't find Tarzan that lighthearted in comparison to Hercules and Mulan although Mulan does have that scene where the village is massacred and all the soldiers are dead.

Okay, then we can agree to disagree. At least we don't see Clayton's body, despite his death being pretty grim. After all, Hunchback showed Quasimodo's gypsy mother getting killed on screen and both The Lion King, Pocahontas and somewhat Hercules had on-screen deaths, so Tarzan wouldn't have been a huge leap.

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Phil though has a pretty big role too and while he's absent from the Herc/Meg scenes, he's never far behind to come up and disturb them, much to Meg's annoyance.

Fair enough. But the difference is that Phil never takes the focus away from Herc and Meg's romance. To be fair, at least Aladdin has a fairly satisfying balance between developing Aladdin's dynamic to both Jasmine and the Genie, whereas in Mulan the romance is sidelinded at the expense of Mushu. Yet Herc and Phil's relationship is not as made in front as those other dynamics, imo

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Funny how Mulan doesn't get much flack for the portrayal of the Huns. I've heard some Mongolians hate that depiction though.

I can only imagine. Oh, I've heard some Asian-Americans ranting about Mulan's general portrayal of Asians, of how they used every stereotype of Asians. I know Mulan created fuzz in China, yet my aforementioned issue was something taken from IMDb boards.

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That's a really neat fanfic and yeah, I can see why they demonized the Spanish lol. It's too bad the Incan setting was wasted on TENG and not something more historically accurate like Kingdom of the Sun would have been.

I liked that fanfic as well. I was immediatly thinking about a Mulan set in Peru, yet it was a resonant story, though perhaps too traditional and straight-forward. I doubt Kingdom of the Sun would've been historically accurate, but at least more faithful to it's setting and mythology. At least the final script was cited to be a mixture of Incan myths as well, besides The Prince and the Pauper-premise.

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Oh, I thought you might like him (Zeus) more beyond him just being "jolly and fun." I feel like a lot of Disney characters could be typecast that way so no wonder I don't find him particularly unique.

Fair enough

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I never found Sebastian selfish though, at least not to the extent of Mushu in Mulan II.

Oh, Mushu in Mulan II takes the cake! He becomes downright unlikable and Mulan should've ditched him immediately and entirely :P! Sure, Mushu was supposed to be somewhat selfish in the first movie as well, but not to that degree.

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Except Belle, Aladdin, and Quasi weren't dealing with peers of their age mocking them for typical teen stuff. They could have gone that route with Belle and the Bimbettes but the Bimbettes never trash talk her in the film. And with the three characters you listed, it could still work because none of them are royal unlike Melody so your point doesn't really stand there. Melody is not a peasant like the rest of them.

Okay, fair enough.

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Yes, good point at the end there.

Thanks

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Nice to hear your thoughts on a Brave sequel.

Thanks, yet they were never specific ideas. Perhaps it could've delved more into Scottish mythology. Surprised that Disney didn't made an animated feature set in Scotland before Brave, since I could picture it being made in the 90's .

Have you seen the new live action remake of The Lion King, btw? I have and I loved it. Don't understand why it's received some many lackluster reviews. It was essentially a carbon copy of it's original predecessor, yet I felt that it enhanced the strengths of the original. It felt somewhat akin to Jon Favreau's The Jungle Book at certain points, yet it's not a bad thing.

Have you seen this video, btw? It's pretty much what I've always ranted about Elsa, but I can give you the link; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyRbIg64oiE&t=11s

Since we've somewhat talked about non-Disney animation, have we ever talked about properties like Balto and Quest for Camelot?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:43 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Quasi's transformation I agree is less overt but I think Beast's is the most obvious besides Ariel's. Certainly more than Hercules' transformation into a God especially since he ends up rejecting godhood at the end.

True. It's funny how simultaneously both Hercules and Anastasia has both of their title characters getting what they truly wanted and rejecting them at the expense of their love interests who betrayed them and redeemed themselves. Yet people have ranted about why Megara wasn't made a goddess. And if you truly think about it, why wants Hercules to join a father that he's barely began to know? :P[/quote]
I didn't even think about the parallels between the endings of Hercules and Anastasia. That's very insightful of you! I remember reading reviews at the time saying that Anastasia felt more like a Disney film than Hercules did which may also explain why I always preferred Anastasia. Between the two, which one do you think feels more like a Disney film? I think the problem with making Meg a goddess was that it would take away the emotional punch of the ending. It's pretty similar to the conundrum at the end of Aladdin. Aladdin only has one wish left and he has to decide between freeing the Genie and becoming a prince again. However, Jasmine or the Sultan (or maybe even Abu, Rajah, or Carpet) could have rubbed the lamp and become Genie's temporary new master. They could wish for Aladdin to become a prince and then Aladdin could reclaim the lamp and use his final wish to free the Genie. Going back to your statement about why Hercules would want to join his stranger of a father, I agree with you. I think Hercules would too once he realized how messed up the Olympians actually were in the real mythologies lol.

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Fair enough. I don't know if I've said this before, but I remember the early fansites for Tarzan back on it's release confirmed that she was going to be a boy. So I thought that Rosie O'Donnell being the voice wouldn't affect the gender, yet I was astonished when I learned that Terk was a girl after all (which has confused some users and is made even fun of in the series). However, Wreck-It-Ralph could've been close as having a similar dynamic between a male lead and a sidekick, though it ended up being a derivative trope during the entire Revival era.

I've never heard that before so thanks for sharing that tidbit! I wonder if Disney actually planned for Terk to be a boy even back then (after Rosie was cast) or if they just made a mistake when they released that information. There are several Disney characters whose genders have confused me when I was younger like Flower from Bambi, Rabbit and Piglet from Winnie the Pooh, and Terk of course. Djali as well although only after I found out that Djali is female in the book, otherwise I never had reason to assume Djali wasn't male. The dynamic in Wreck-It Ralph still felt a bit more fresh than the other Revival films because the typical roles were gender swapped. Maybe you could say it was derivative of Bolt though with the relationship of Bolt and Mittens.

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Okay, then we can agree to disagree. At least we don't see Clayton's body, despite his death being pretty grim. After all, Hunchback showed Quasimodo's gypsy mother getting killed on screen and both The Lion King, Pocahontas and somewhat Hercules had on-screen deaths, so Tarzan wouldn't have been a huge leap.

Clayton's body may have been too much which is why I think the silhouette is just enough for a family film. I think the reason that characters like Quasimodo's mother, Mufasa, and Meg could have their deaths shown is because they were killed from the impacts of heavy blows/falls. You'll notice that even with Kocoum, we never seen any blood or wound and I've heard people making fun of his death and how one wouldn't even be able to tell he was shot from his death scene. Most of these Disney deaths usually don't showcase any wounds but Clayton's neck being snapped from the vines wouldn't have been able to be subtly masked like the aforementioned deaths.

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Fair enough. But the difference is that Phil never takes the focus away from Herc and Meg's romance. To be fair, at least Aladdin has a fairly satisfying balance between developing Aladdin's dynamic to both Jasmine and the Genie, whereas in Mulan the romance is sidelinded at the expense of Mushu. Yet Herc and Phil's relationship is not as made in front as those other dynamics, imo.

You're right about Phil not taking away from the romance (despite his best attempts in the movie to sabotage them as a couple lol). I think in Mulan, it wasn't so much a case that the romance was sidelined to prop up Mushu as much as the romance wasn't a big deal. In Aladdin, the reason he makes a wish from the Genie is to win Jasmine's hand in marriage and the premise of the film is about a romance between these two. In Mulan, romance could have been removed and it wouldn't have affected the plot because that wasn't what the film was about. It was probably just thrown into the film because all the 90s films had romance but if the film was made in the current era, I doubt there'd be anything between her and Shang. It might be a relationship more like Judy and Nick. Which makes me wonder if the live-action film will bother with a romance as well.

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I can only imagine. Oh, I've heard some Asian-Americans ranting about Mulan's general portrayal of Asians, of how they used every stereotype of Asians. I know Mulan created fuzz in China, yet my aforementioned issue was something taken from IMDb boards.

Yes, in the live-action Mulan thread, I've posted some threads about Asian people and their mixed views on Mulan. In my experience Asian Americans are generally more accepting of the film because of the little representation they've seen of their culture in Hollywood whereas actual people living in Asia were more critical. Although that's not to say that many Asian Americans haven't been critical as well once they looked past nostalgia or even that there weren't some Asians who didn't love the film.

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I liked that fanfic as well. I was immediatly thinking about a Mulan set in Peru, yet it was a resonant story, though perhaps too traditional and straight-forward. I doubt Kingdom of the Sun would've been historically accurate, but at least more faithful to it's setting and mythology. At least the final script was cited to be a mixture of Incan myths as well, besides The Prince and the Pauper-premise.

Lol, you're right, historically accurate was an incorrect term. I suppose culturally accurate or at least striving to be accepted as an authentic experience for audiences unlike what we got in TENG would be more appropriate. I've collected a lot of info on Kingdom of the Sun and I really liked a lot of the mythological aspects they included such as Emperor Manco/Kuzco being considered the son of the sun god. I can't remember if in TENG, Kuzco ever goes around bragging about his divine heritage and how he's basically a god.

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Oh, Mushu in Mulan II takes the cake! He becomes downright unlikable and Mulan should've ditched him immediately and entirely :P! Sure, Mushu was supposed to be somewhat selfish in the first movie as well, but not to that degree.
Is it bad that I enjoyed Mushu nevertheless even in Mulan II? He has some funny moments such as when he tries to sabotage Mulan and Shang but keeps bringing them closer together.

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Thanks, yet they were never specific ideas. Perhaps it could've delved more into Scottish mythology. Surprised that Disney didn't made an animated feature set in Scotland before Brave, since I could picture it being made in the 90's .

Apparently Roy Disney really wanted a film based on Scottish culture and a film based on the Scottish myth of Tam Lin was planned. However, Michael Eisner immediately realized that this was being made for Roy's pleasure so he canned it. A pity, because I would have liked to have seen a 2D Disney film set in Scotland.

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Have you seen the new live action remake of The Lion King, btw? I have and I loved it. Don't understand why it's received some many lackluster reviews. It was essentially a carbon copy of it's original predecessor, yet I felt that it enhanced the strengths of the original. It felt somewhat akin to Jon Favreau's The Jungle Book at certain points, yet it's not a bad thing.

Yes, I did watch it just recently and I've posted my thoughts on it right below your post in the live-action Lion King thread. You seemed to have liked it overall more than I did but I think I was just underwhelmed by how this really was a carbon copy of the original. It makes me laugh since so many people complained about how Cinderella, BATB, and Aladdin were "carbon copies." A lot of your criticisms I agreed with and a lot of the changes you liked, I liked as well.

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Have you seen this video, btw? It's pretty much what I've always ranted about Elsa, but I can give you the link; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyRbIg64oiE&t=11s

Thanks for sharing the Elsa link. As you know by now, I agree with pretty much all of that, starting with how superficial the character is and how all the ambiguous shades of the character were ignored in the final script. I didn't necessarily want a full-fledged villain but she could have been a great anti-hero who is ultimately redeemed but we didn't even get that.

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Since we've somewhat talked about non-Disney animation, have we ever talked about properties like Balto and Quest for Camelot?

I don't think we've talked about any non-Disney animated films beyond Anastasia and a little bit of Swan Princess and Thumbelina. I've never seen Balto but I used to watch Quest for Camelot a lot when I was younger. I haven't seen it for a while but they're showing it free on my TV network so this will give me an excuse to rewatch it.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:27 pm 
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Once again, sorry for another delayed answer. Life gets in the way and I've been busy lately. But here I am.

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I didn't even think about the parallels between the endings of Hercules and Anastasia. That's very insightful of you! I remember reading reviews at the time saying that Anastasia felt more like a Disney film than Hercules did which may also explain why I always preferred Anastasia. Between the two, which one do you think feels more like a Disney film?

Thanks :) To be honest, both of them do feel like Disney, but each in their own way. Hercules is an irreverent Aladdin-knock off (despite that it has plenty of moments of drama), whereas Anastasia is mostly an animated drama, which is more overt in the last half of the film. Both are steeped in the typical Disney components of the 90's, but at least Anastasia has the villain song and a love song, though not sung by the lovebirds themselves (technically Hercules also has it, but in a different way). At first I preferred Anastasia to Hercules, but now it's the opposite. Yet I don't dislike Anastasia. I just find it to be flawed. But I know that I've mentioned it before.

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I think the problem with making Meg a goddess was that it would take away the emotional punch of the ending. It's pretty similar to the conundrum at the end of Aladdin. Aladdin only has one wish left and he has to decide between freeing the Genie and becoming a prince again. However, Jasmine or the Sultan (or maybe even Abu, Rajah, or Carpet) could have rubbed the lamp and become Genie's temporary new master. They could wish for Aladdin to become a prince and then Aladdin could reclaim the lamp and use his final wish to free the Genie.

Fair enough. But in Hercules' case it's more bittersweet, since Herc gives up what he initially wanted for Meg. Whereas in Aladdin he initially frees the Genie, yet get his girl at the end (though it's not by his choice, since all that is thanks to the Sultan and Jasmine). I couldn't imagine the pets as his new masters, hahaha!

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I've never heard that before so thanks for sharing that tidbit! I wonder if Disney actually planned for Terk to be a boy even back then (after Rosie was cast) or if they just made a mistake when they released that information. There are several Disney characters whose genders have confused me when I was younger like Flower from Bambi, Rabbit and Piglet from Winnie the Pooh, and Terk of course. Djali as well although only after I found out that Djali is female in the book, otherwise I never had reason to assume Djali wasn't male. The dynamic in Wreck-It Ralph still felt a bit more fresh than the other Revival films because the typical roles were gender swapped. Maybe you could say it was derivative of Bolt though with the relationship of Bolt and Mittens.

You're welcome. I think they were planning to make Terk a male at first, according to Starlog Magazine. Yet the series actually pokes fun at her gender. It's understandable why you got confused by Flower and Piglet's genders. And I agree about you Bolt and Mittens, but I haven't seen Bolt in a while (and with good reasons, since I thought the film was just meh).

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Clayton's body may have been too much which is why I think the silhouette is just enough for a family film. I think the reason that characters like Quasimodo's mother, Mufasa, and Meg could have their deaths shown is because they were killed from the impacts of heavy blows/falls. You'll notice that even with Kocoum, we never seen any blood or wound and I've heard people making fun of his death and how one wouldn't even be able to tell he was shot from his death scene. Most of these Disney deaths usually don't showcase any wounds but Clayton's neck being snapped from the vines wouldn't have been able to be subtly masked like the aforementioned deaths.

Oh, have you seen Lindsay Ellis' (former Nostalgia Chick) first videos for Pocahontas? She used to make fun of that death in her first videos, but she's always trashed the movie in almost every single review of hers, to a point where it became annoying. Yes, she's allowed to state her dislike, but not every single time.

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You're right about Phil not taking away from the romance (despite his best attempts in the movie to sabotage them as a couple lol). I think in Mulan, it wasn't so much a case that the romance was sidelined to prop up Mushu as much as the romance wasn't a big deal. In Aladdin, the reason he makes a wish from the Genie is to win Jasmine's hand in marriage and the premise of the film is about a romance between these two. In Mulan, romance could have been removed and it wouldn't have affected the plot because that wasn't what the film was about. It was probably just thrown into the film because all the 90s films had romance but if the film was made in the current era, I doubt there'd be anything between her and Shang. It might be a relationship more like Judy and Nick. Which makes me wonder if the live-action film will bother with a romance as well.

True. The romance is Mulan is mandatory, but not as prominent as it would've been in other 90's features. But Mulan was originally intended to be a romantic comedy, though, but I guess it would've been too derivate, anyways. Since most of the Renaissance films were romances. Though the romance wasn't as prominent in the late 90's features, where they were mostly balanced with other elements. I know that even in Tarzan they were even considering to clear the romance away.

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Lol, you're right, historically accurate was an incorrect term. I suppose culturally accurate or at least striving to be accepted as an authentic experience for audiences unlike what we got in TENG would be more appropriate. I've collected a lot of info on Kingdom of the Sun and I really liked a lot of the mythological aspects they included such as Emperor Manco/Kuzco being considered the son of the sun god. I can't remember if in TENG, Kuzco ever goes around bragging about his divine heritage and how he's basically a god.

No, I don't think he does. It's truly a pity that Kingdom of the Sun was discarded, but I know that some people who've posted online that they saw it said it was terrible. And that was the reason for why I was scrapped and morphed into The Emperor's New Groove, since Marc Dindal's version was more appealing. I honestly think that some of the story points could've been improved.

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Is it bad that I enjoyed Mushu nevertheless even in Mulan II? He has some funny moments such as when he tries to sabotage Mulan and Shang but keeps bringing them closer together.

Yes, it's bad! :P Just kidding ;)

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Apparently Roy Disney really wanted a film based on Scottish culture and a film based on the Scottish myth of Tam Lin was planned. However, Michael Eisner immediately realized that this was being made for Roy's pleasure so he canned it. A pity, because I would have liked to have seen a 2D Disney film set in Scotland.

Oh, I know about the Roy Disney/Michael Eisner feud (and I'm on Roy's side, because he seemed like a genuinely nice guy, as opposed to Eisner). And agreed. I would've liked a hand drawn film with a Scottish setting, but perhaps Disney could do another Scottish story (though it would've been immediatly been perceived as a Brave-rip off.

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Yes, I did watch it just recently and I've posted my thoughts on it right below your post in the live-action Lion King thread. You seemed to have liked it overall more than I did but I think I was just underwhelmed by how this really was a carbon copy of the original. It makes me laugh since so many people complained about how Cinderella, BATB, and Aladdin were "carbon copies." A lot of your criticisms I agreed with and a lot of the changes you liked, I liked as well.

Well, I wouldn't call Kenneth Branagh's Cinderella a carbon copy, since it was fairly distincitve enough to be it's own movie. One friend of mine (the aforementioned one who complained about the plot holes in Frozen) thought the film was a missed opportunity to not draw on the nostalgia for Walt's animated classic.

Yes, I've read your answers below my comment. It was expected that it was a carbon copy, due to how the same happened to the live action remakes for Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin. I think it's fair that they are essentially carbon copies, due to how the beloved the Renaissance films are and that they were made with a modern audience in mind. Wonder if the live action versions of Hunchback and Hercules will be akin to their animated predecessors.

Have you noticed that there's an current trend to now dislike these new live action remakes? Perhaps it's not strange, yet still...

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Thanks for sharing the Elsa link. As you know by now, I agree with pretty much all of that, starting with how superficial the character is and how all the ambiguous shades of the character were ignored in the final script. I didn't necessarily want a full-fledged villain but she could have been a great anti-hero who is ultimately redeemed but we didn't even get that.

You're welcome. It's not as she isn't a shallow character, it's just that her screentime isn't as enhanced and is a passive character.

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I don't think we've talked about any non-Disney animated films beyond Anastasia and a little bit of Swan Princess and Thumbelina. I've never seen Balto but I used to watch Quest for Camelot a lot when I was younger. I haven't seen it for a while but they're showing it free on my TV network so this will give me an excuse to rewatch it.

Okay, then there's no need to talk about Balto then, hahahaha :P

I remember reading several bad reviews for Quest for Camelot prior to seeing it, but I remember seeing three years after it's release and I happened to like a lot. Later viewings made me realize that it's quite flawed and frankly, I've been torn about the film ever since. I saw it twice as an adult lately, first in 2011 and later on in 2015. In 2011 I absolutely hated the film, while in 2015 it made me realize it's perks. What I do like about it, is the music (at least most of the songs), the animation (regardless of it's being trashed) and Kayley, who is a fine heroine.
What I dislike about it are Devon and Cornwall, who even surpasses the Gargoyles in Hunchback for obnoxiousness. Most of the comedy is juvenile and grating, whereas the singing voices don't mesh with the speaking voices. Even then, two of the ballads (The Prayer and Looking Through Your Eyes just feels jarringly out of place and don't mesh with the rest of the songs. So yeah, for Quest for Camelot is a flawed film, but it has it's perks. It's just a pity that the perks can't overcome it's flaws.

Have you seen The King and I?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:38 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Once again, sorry for another delayed answer. Life gets in the way and I've been busy lately. But here I am.

That's all right. :) I don't mind especially since I've been busy myself these past few days so a belated response worked out for both of us I think!

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Thanks :) To be honest, both of them do feel like Disney, but each in their own way. Hercules is an irreverent Aladdin-knock off (despite that it has plenty of moments of drama), whereas Anastasia is mostly an animated drama, which is more overt in the last half of the film. Both are steeped in the typical Disney components of the 90's, but at least Anastasia has the villain song and a love song, though not sung by the lovebirds themselves (technically Hercules also has it, but in a different way). At first I preferred Anastasia to Hercules, but now it's the opposite. Yet I don't dislike Anastasia. I just find it to be flawed. But I know that I've mentioned it before.

I always found it surprising that Hercules never had a villain song. I think Hades got one in the TV show although it seems rather forgettable. In the Dark of the Night is one of the most popular villain songs which is ironic since it isn't even Disney but there's a lot of love for it on YouTube. Even in the Anastasia musical, although the song wouldn't work, they reused the score for a new song. Yeah, I guess Hercules sorta has a love song with I Won't Say I'm in Love. BTW, have you ever heard the deleted Meg song I Can't Believe My Heart? If so, what do you think about it?

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Fair enough. But in Hercules' case it's more bittersweet, since Herc gives up what he initially wanted for Meg. Whereas in Aladdin he initially frees the Genie, yet get his girl at the end (though it's not by his choice, since all that is thanks to the Sultan and Jasmine). I couldn't imagine the pets as his new masters, hahaha!

And I guess the mythology didn't exactly help formulate an ending for Hercules either. If Megara had become a goddess after Hercules killed her in the mythology and reunited with him when he became a god, they could have used that ending for the Disney film. But Megara's fate is ambiguous in the myths since in some she's permanently killed and in others, she survives but is married off to Hercules' nephew or something like that. And Hercules marries his 100% divine half-sister Hebe. Yeah, you're right about how Aladdin has a less bittersweet ending overall to Hercules. Lol, I don't think Abu or especially Iago would make a very good master of the Genie.

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You're welcome. I think they were planning to make Terk a male at first, according to Starlog Magazine. Yet the series actually pokes fun at her gender. It's understandable why you got confused by Flower and Piglet's genders. And I agree about you Bolt and Mittens, but I haven't seen Bolt in a while (and with good reasons, since I thought the film was just meh).

Yeah, Terk was supposed to be male before Rosie O'Donnell got the role. It's funny that the tv show pokes fun at that. I haven't seen Bolt in forever either. Never cared much for it and I found Rhino insufferable and Bolt as a character wasn't much better. I only liked Mittens, but clearly not enough to rewatch the film lol.

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Oh, have you seen Lindsay Ellis' (former Nostalgia Chick) first videos for Pocahontas? She used to make fun of that death in her first videos, but she's always trashed the movie in almost every single review of hers, to a point where it became annoying. Yes, she's allowed to state her dislike, but not every single time.

Yes, after you recommended some of her videos, I watched the Pocahontas one and like you predicted, it wasn't easy as a Pocahontas fan. I can see why the death of Kocoum would be humorous though lol. I know she's apologized later on for her harsh treatment of certain films but did she ever say the same for Pocahontas?

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True. The romance is Mulan is mandatory, but not as prominent as it would've been in other 90's features. But Mulan was originally intended to be a romantic comedy, though, but I guess it would've been too derivate, anyways. Since most of the Renaissance films were romances. Though the romance wasn't as prominent in the late 90's features, where they were mostly balanced with other elements. I know that even in Tarzan they were even considering to clear the romance away.

What's interesting from the deleted scenes of Mulan is that Shang was who she was betrothed to and he wasn't the captain of the army, nor was his father the general of the army. I'm assuming he would have been a random soldier like Mulan in that draft so I'm curious about how their dynamic would have worked since he wouldn't be in a position of authority over her. It probably would have been awkward for her to realize her betrothed is there and could perhaps recognize her. Is that true about Tarzan not nearly having a romance? I'd love to hear more about that if you remember anything else about their initial plans for it.

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No, I don't think he does. It's truly a pity that Kingdom of the Sun was discarded, but I know that some people who've posted online that they saw it said it was terrible. And that was the reason for why I was scrapped and morphed into The Emperor's New Groove, since Marc Dindal's version was more appealing. I honestly think that some of the story points could've been improved.

I know some people who worked on the film complained that the film (KOTS) was a mess, but at the same time, animators like Andreas Deja seemed to really support their work on the film and preferred the early version. Eartha Kitt liked her original version of Yzma before she was revamped as well, and I definitely would have preferred the more dark and sinister sorceress version of Yzma over the rather inefficient mad scientist she became. Probably she would have been like another Ursula or Cruella.

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Yes, it's bad! :P Just kidding ;)

Haha, I watched Mulan II a lot when I was younger so I have a soft spot for it. Much like with TLMII.

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Oh, I know about the Roy Disney/Michael Eisner feud (and I'm on Roy's side, because he seemed like a genuinely nice guy, as opposed to Eisner). And agreed. I would've liked a hand drawn film with a Scottish setting, but perhaps Disney could do another Scottish story (though it would've been immediatly been perceived as a Brave-rip off.

I'm on Roy's side too especially since he was a big supporter of Treasure Planet and really pushed for the film's creation when it received blowback from executives and the other higher ups who never wanted this film to be made in the first place. Unfortunately, I suppose they were right at the end, at least financially. I will say this about Eisner is that he was a big Hunchback fan so he has some redeeming qualities. I was reading old threads on this forum and apparently he really tried to keep this film in the forefront and even wanted to make an ABC live-action TV musical for the film, sorta like the Brandy Cinderella one. It's too bad he never ordered the issuing of a 2-Disc DVD for Hunchback before he was booted out of Disney.

My one fear with Tam Lin was that it could have been CGI. I agree that if Disney tried to make it now, it would appear to be a Brave ripoff which is unfortunate but they reuse settings like England and France all the time. And since Tam Lin doesn't feature a princess or fairy tale kingdom but instead has a regular girl who falls into a land of fairies, I think the premise could be unique enough. Especially since it's one of Scotland's more famous stories and often regarded as the Scotish version of BATB.

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Well, I wouldn't call Kenneth Branagh's Cinderella a carbon copy, since it was fairly distincitve enough to be it's own movie. One friend of mine (the aforementioned one who complained about the plot holes in Frozen) thought the film was a missed opportunity to not draw on the nostalgia for Walt's animated classic.

Yes, I've read your answers below my comment. It was expected that it was a carbon copy, due to how the same happened to the live action remakes for Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin. I think it's fair that they are essentially carbon copies, due to how the beloved the Renaissance films are and that they were made with a modern audience in mind. Wonder if the live action versions of Hunchback and Hercules will be akin to their animated predecessors.

Have you noticed that there's an current trend to now dislike these new live action remakes? Perhaps it's not strange, yet still...

Do you think your friend would have been happier with a live-action Cinderella more similar to Walt's film then?

I was expecting a final product similar to the animated film, but I thought it would diverge a little with some new characters or subplots like in BATB or Aladdin but it was literally the exact same as the animated film for the most part. I'm curious about how they'll handle Hunchback and Hercules as well. If Greece was a bigger market in the movie industry, they might try to overhaul Hercules to be more accurate to the myths like they've changed Mulan up to appeal to Chinese audiences. France never had an issue with Hunchback and Europeans liked the film enough so beyond maybe some darker elements like in the stage adaptations, I don't think it will be drastically changed.

There is negative discourse on the live-action remakes but they clearly still manage to win audiences over in the theaters, or at least the major ones do.

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You're welcome. It's not as she isn't a shallow character, it's just that her screentime isn't as enhanced and is a passive character.

I agree :)

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Okay, then there's no need to talk about Balto then, hahahaha :P

I remember reading several bad reviews for Quest for Camelot prior to seeing it, but I remember seeing three years after it's release and I happened to like a lot. Later viewings made me realize that it's quite flawed and frankly, I've been torn about the film ever since. I saw it twice as an adult lately, first in 2011 and later on in 2015. In 2011 I absolutely hated the film, while in 2015 it made me realize it's perks. What I do like about it, is the music (at least most of the songs), the animation (regardless of it's being trashed) and Kayley, who is a fine heroine.
What I dislike about it are Devon and Cornwall, who even surpasses the Gargoyles in Hunchback for obnoxiousness. Most of the comedy is juvenile and grating, whereas the singing voices don't mesh with the speaking voices. Even then, two of the ballads (The Prayer and Looking Through Your Eyes just feels jarringly out of place and don't mesh with the rest of the songs. So yeah, for Quest for Camelot is a flawed film, but it has it's perks. It's just a pity that the perks can't overcome it's flaws.

Have you seen The King and I?

Actually, I think I did watch Balto a long time ago but tbh, I'm not a big fan of animated animal films beyond the major Disney ones, so it didn't leave much of an impression on me.

Apparently the script for the film was reworked over and over. I think it was supposed to be more of an Arthurian epic in the beginning but executives meddled with it to be more comedic and it became a mess. The Iron Giant suffered a lot with its marketing because of how Quest for Camelot turned out.

I've seen the stage version and the live-action film but never the animated film. The Swan Princess director made that right? I was never really interested in watching it because of how terribly panned it was and I think Rodgers and Hammerstein's estate refused to ever let another animated film be created on one of their musicals ever again lol.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Quote:
I always found it surprising that Hercules never had a villain song. I think Hades got one in the TV show although it seems rather forgettable.

It's pretty noteworthy how the late Renaissance films pretty much excluded the villain songs (though to be fair, it's hard to picture Shan-Yu sing). I've now heard Hades' song from the TV series and it wasn't bad, yet the melody seemed quite familiar.

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In the Dark of the Night is one of the most popular villain songs which is ironic since it isn't even Disney but there's a lot of love for it on YouTube. Even in the Anastasia musical, although the song wouldn't work, they reused the score for a new song.

I don't dislike In the Dark of the Night, but I don't love it either. It's okay, yet it manages to be menacing at times. Yet I know that Lindsay Ellis dislikes it, because she loathes Anastasia for it's historical inaccuracy.

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Yeah, I guess Hercules sorta has a love song with I Won't Say I'm in Love. BTW, have you ever heard the deleted Meg song I Can't Believe My Heart? If so, what do you think about it?

Yes, I've heard it, but I didn't think much about it. It wasn't bad, but not marvellous. But it was too sincere for her character. Frankly, I think it was a forgettable ballad, even by Menken standards.

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And I guess the mythology didn't exactly help formulate an ending for Hercules either. If Megara had become a goddess after Hercules killed her in the mythology and reunited with him when he became a god, they could have used that ending for the Disney film. But Megara's fate is ambiguous in the myths since in some she's permanently killed and in others, she survives but is married off to Hercules' nephew or something like that. And Hercules marries his 100% divine half-sister Hebe.

Did you hear that the Hercules sequel was rumored to have Herc's daughter to be named Hebe? And that John Musker and Ron Clements were interested to work on it?

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Yes, after you recommended some of her videos, I watched the Pocahontas one and like you predicted, it wasn't easy as a Pocahontas fan. I can see why the death of Kocoum would be humorous though lol. I know she's apologized later on for her harsh treatment of certain films but did she ever say the same for Pocahontas?

I don't think so, but in her latest video for the film, she acknowledged that her hatred had soften a bit. And sure, it's not easy for a Pocahontas fan to watch her videos, but neverless.

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What's interesting from the deleted scenes of Mulan is that Shang was who she was betrothed to and he wasn't the captain of the army, nor was his father the general of the army. I'm assuming he would have been a random soldier like Mulan in that draft so I'm curious about how their dynamic would have worked since he wouldn't be in a position of authority over her. It probably would have been awkward for her to realize her betrothed is there and could perhaps recognize her.

True. They were initially planning to make Mulan an romantic comedy like Tootsie, but the crew never liked that idea. However, it's refreshing in hindsight that Mulan is going to be bid to marriage, but never to an actual groom.

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Is that true about Tarzan not nearly having a romance? I'd love to hear more about that if you remember anything else about their initial plans for it.

Sure. It was actually mentioned in one of the Starlog's Magazine's during the movie's release. There were two articles published that summer about the movie and the second edition mentioned that there wasn't planned any romance at all. I cannot honestly believe that!

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I know some people who worked on the film complained that the film (KOTS) was a mess, but at the same time, animators like Andreas Deja seemed to really support their work on the film and preferred the early version. Eartha Kitt liked her original version of Yzma before she was revamped as well, and I definitely would have preferred the more dark and sinister sorceress version of Yzma over the rather inefficient mad scientist she became. Probably she would have been like another Ursula or Cruella.

To be honest, I didn't thought that Yzma in the final version was that bad, but I guess that she may have been a good villain in the original version. And yes, apparently Andreas Deja got really angry by the new direction, so therefore he declined. I don't know if you've read these articles, but they're truly informative about the making of The Emperor's New Groove;
https://www.laughingplace.com/w/leg/?legacyasppage=News-PID115140-115140.asp
https://www.laughingplace.com/w/leg/?legacyasppage=News-ID115160.asp

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I'm on Roy's side too especially since he was a big supporter of Treasure Planet and really pushed for the film's creation when it received blowback from executives and the other higher ups who never wanted this film to be made in the first place. Unfortunately, I suppose they were right at the end, at least financially.

He was? I didn't know that.

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I will say this about Eisner is that he was a big Hunchback fan so he has some redeeming qualities. I was reading old threads on this forum and apparently he really tried to keep this film in the forefront and even wanted to make an ABC live-action TV musical for the film, sorta like the Brandy Cinderella one. It's too bad he never ordered the issuing of a 2-Disc DVD for Hunchback before he was booted out of Disney.

Yeah, I know that he was utterly in love with Hunchback, yet he's the one who actually pushed the controversial aspects of the movie. Yet it proves his good taste, hahahaha. I didn't know about the ABC live-action TV musical for the film and he was the one who urged the stage version; http://web.archive.org/web/20030402031539/http://www.animated-movies.net/TheHunchbackOfNotreDame.html. Thanks for the info.

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My one fear with Tam Lin was that it could have been CGI. I agree that if Disney tried to make it now, it would appear to be a Brave ripoff which is unfortunate but they reuse settings like England and France all the time. And since Tam Lin doesn't feature a princess or fairy tale kingdom but instead has a regular girl who falls into a land of fairies, I think the premise could be unique enough. Especially since it's one of Scotland's more famous stories and often regarded as the Scotish version of BATB.

You're right. But now that we've recently had the Tinker Bell franchise, it could've been seen as reminiscent.

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Do you think your friend would have been happier with a live-action Cinderella more similar to Walt's film then?

Perhaps, but he has a tendency to always rant about certain films, anyway.

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I was expecting a final product similar to the animated film, but I thought it would diverge a little with some new characters or subplots like in BATB or Aladdin but it was literally the exact same as the animated film for the most part. I'm curious about how they'll handle Hunchback and Hercules as well. If Greece was a bigger market in the movie industry, they might try to overhaul Hercules to be more accurate to the myths like they've changed Mulan up to appeal to Chinese audiences.

True. Now that Jon Favreau has made two remakes of the Jungle films, do you think that he'll do a live action remake of Tarzan if Disney greenlits it?

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France never had an issue with Hunchback and Europeans liked the film enough so beyond maybe some darker elements like in the stage adaptations, I don't think it will be drastically changed.

True. According to the Audio Commentary, the French people loved the film and the aforementioned article cites that the Europeans embraced the film more.

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There is negative discourse on the live-action remakes but they clearly still manage to win audiences over in the theaters, or at least the major ones do.

True, but I've noticed how there's suddenly been such an anti-remake agenda lately, as the majority are starting anti-remake campaigns.

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Actually, I think I did watch Balto a long time ago but tbh, I'm not a big fan of animated animal films beyond the major Disney ones, so it didn't leave much of an impression on me.

I remember seeing Balto theatrically at the age of twelve, but thinking that it was just meh, nothing spectacular. Despite that I enjoyed the characters and thought they were the saving grace of the movie. It's really in my adult years that I've gained a bigger appreciation for Balto. It may not be brilliant, but it's still a fine, evocative movie on it's own right. It's overall weaknesses is that the structure of the events feels cluttered and the juvenile comedy feels out of place, but I like it nonethless.

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Apparently the script for the film was reworked over and over. I think it was supposed to be more of an Arthurian epic in the beginning but executives meddled with it to be more comedic and it became a mess. The Iron Giant suffered a lot with its marketing because of how Quest for Camelot turned out.

I've read that Quest for Camelot was originally supposed to be darker, yet they made it lighter. The Iron Giant's marketing somewhat of an irony, since it was the better film overall. But now it's gained such a wide fanbase and pretty much seen as the epitome of a perect film.

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I've seen the stage version and the live-action film but never the animated film. The Swan Princess director made that right? I was never really interested in watching it because of how terribly panned it was and I think Rodgers and Hammerstein's estate refused to ever let another animated film be created on one of their musicals ever again lol.

Yes, it's from Richard Rich, The Swan Princess' director. I remember seeing it a couple of decades ago and thinking that while it wasn't awful, it still had some faults (awful side characters and ballads that sucked valuable screentime). Yet it was still overall meh.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:17 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
It's pretty noteworthy how the late Renaissance films pretty much excluded the villain songs (though to be fair, it's hard to picture Shan-Yu sing). I've now heard Hades' song from the TV series and it wasn't bad, yet the melody seemed quite familiar.

Lol, I can't see Shan Yu singing and if Tarzan and Jane didn't sing, Clayton singing would be out of place too. Hades is the main outlier here.

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I don't dislike In the Dark of the Night, but I don't love it either. It's okay, yet it manages to be menacing at times. Yet I know that Lindsay Ellis dislikes it, because she loathes Anastasia for it's historical inaccuracy.

That explains why she hates Pocahontas as well then.

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Yes, I've heard it, but I didn't think much about it. It wasn't bad, but not marvellous. But it was too sincere for her character. Frankly, I think it was a forgettable ballad, even by Menken standards.

I actually like the song a lot but most people agree with you that it doesn't suit the character and isn't really that great of a song. I think the only person I've met who really like the song is Atlantica.

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Did you hear that the Hercules sequel was rumored to have Herc's daughter to be named Hebe? And that John Musker and Ron Clements were interested to work on it?

Yes, I've heard that although I've always wanted to read the original source for that. I think he would fight in the Trojan War.

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I don't think so, but in her latest video for the film, she acknowledged that her hatred had soften a bit. And sure, it's not easy for a Pocahontas fan to watch her videos, but neverless.

Thanks for answering :)

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True. They were initially planning to make Mulan an romantic comedy like Tootsie, but the crew never liked that idea. However, it's refreshing in hindsight that Mulan is going to be bid to marriage, but never to an actual groom.

I agree. And I'm glad the film was dramatized more although my complaint is that it needed even more drama. I love the film up until Mulan leaves for war. That's when it becomes really comedic (with the introduction of Mushu and Chien Po, Yao, and Ling) and I think the film suffers for it. The songs get weaker at this point too imo.

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Sure. It was actually mentioned in one of the Starlog's Magazine's during the movie's release. There were two articles published that summer about the movie and the second edition mentioned that there wasn't planned any romance at all. I cannot honestly believe that!

Wow, I can't believe it either. Thanks for confirming!

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To be honest, I didn't thought that Yzma in the final version was that bad, but I guess that she may have been a good villain in the original version. And yes, apparently Andreas Deja got really angry by the new direction, so therefore he declined. I don't know if you've read these articles, but they're truly informative about the making of The Emperor's New Groove;
https://www.laughingplace.com/w/leg/?legacyasppage=News-PID115140-115140.asp
https://www.laughingplace.com/w/leg/?legacyasppage=News-ID115160.asp

Just to clarify, I don't think the final version of Yzma is a bad villain and she's super popular in some circles, but like Andreas Deja and Eartha Kitt, I would have prefered the earlier version of her. At the same time, if Andreas Deja hadn't left the film, we wouldn't have gotten him to do Lilo in Lilo & Stitch since he took that assignment because he quit Yzma.

Thanks for posting the links! I've read similar content but never those two specific articles.

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He was? I didn't know that.

Yes, I can't find the specific article I once read but I've this which is even more interesting: a review on IMDB.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133240/reviews
For Roy
jonricco-11 February 2006
Everyone show watch and buy this movie if for no other reason than to support Roy Disney against Michael Eisner!!

This poor movie suffered from political mudslinging between these two. As "Treasure Island" was one of the Disney company's first and most successful live-action pictures, Roy had always been passionate about making an animated version. Eisner, ever Roy's opponent, was in charge of the advertising budget. So, when Treasure planet was released, without any typically "Disney" fanfare, it met with unsurprisingly small attendance.

The day after it was released, Eisner held a press conference, declaring "Treasure Planet" a flop, and blaming it for Disney's poor 3rd quarter performance. Roy promptly quit the company his uncle and father had built.


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Yeah, I know that he was utterly in love with Hunchback, yet he's the one who actually pushed the controversial aspects of the movie. Yet it proves his good taste, hahahaha. I didn't know about the ABC live-action TV musical for the film and he was the one who urged the stage version; http://web.archive.org/web/20030402031539/http://www.animated-movies.net/TheHunchbackOfNotreDame.html. Thanks for the info.

Glad you appreciated the info! I didn't realize Eisner pushed those aspects of the film which gives me greater respect for him. Only wish he had done a little more and toned down the gargoyles or at least Hugo. Thanks for the link although none of the text shows up for me and only about half the pictures unfortunately. Is there anything specific in there you wanted to show me?

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You're right. But now that we've recently had the Tinker Bell franchise, it could've been seen as reminiscent.

I think the fairies in Tam Lin are more like Maleficent rather than the sparkly Pixie Hollow ones. The Fairfolk basically so something akin to the Enchantress in Beauty and the Beast as well where they aren't miniscule in size and have wings with wands but are these gorgeous supernatural creatures who can be quite malicious and sinister if wronged. The villainess is like that for example. I'd hope the film would be anything but reminiscent of the Tinker Bell films lol.

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Perhaps, but he has a tendency to always rant about certain films, anyway.

Lol, at least he must provide some interesting conversation.

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True. Now that Jon Favreau has made two remakes of the Jungle films, do you think that he'll do a live action remake of Tarzan if Disney greenlits it?

I'd love for him to do a live-action Tarzan remake especially if it meant Disney had to get the rights again. They could actually promote the animated film. However, I think Favreau's next project is The Jungle Book sequel and with the success of The Lion King (and plans to make an Aladdin sequel), he might work on a Lion King sequel after that.

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True. According to the Audio Commentary, the French people loved the film and the aforementioned article cites that the Europeans embraced the film more.

That reminds me that I need to listen to audio commentaries more. I've seen all the major Cine-Explore features or visual commentaries akin to that for films like Alice in Wonderland, Sleeping Beauty, Pinocchio, Dumbo, Bambi, Finding Nemo, and Toy Story 3 but I haven't bothered with any traditional commentaries yet.

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True, but I've noticed how there's suddenly been such an anti-remake agenda lately, as the majority are starting anti-remake campaigns.

I think the main reason we see the extreme negative reaction now is because there's been so many being churned out. This year alone we've had Dumbo, Aladdin, and The Lion King and Lady and the Tramp is still set to debut later on this year. Not to mention Maleficent 2.

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I remember seeing Balto theatrically at the age of twelve, but thinking that it was just meh, nothing spectacular. Despite that I enjoyed the characters and thought they were the saving grace of the movie. It's really in my adult years that I've gained a bigger appreciation for Balto. It may not be brilliant, but it's still a fine, evocative movie on it's own right. It's overall weaknesses is that the structure of the events feels cluttered and the juvenile comedy feels out of place, but I like it nonethless.

Since you recommend certain aspects of it, I'll have to give it a try one of these days. I think it used to be on Netflix, but it may have been removed since then.

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I've read that Quest for Camelot was originally supposed to be darker, yet they made it lighter. The Iron Giant's marketing somewhat of an irony, since it was the better film overall. But now it's gained such a wide fanbase and pretty much seen as the epitome of a perect film.

It's too bad that there hasn't been a single animated Arthurian film that has resonated with audiences. Actually that could apply to the live-action films as well since they all flop and are labeled box office poison. Yeah, funny how time has saved the reputation of The Iron Giant and it's considered one of the best animated films ever now.

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Yes, it's from Richard Rich, The Swan Princess' director. I remember seeing it a couple of decades ago and thinking that while it wasn't awful, it still had some faults (awful side characters and ballads that sucked valuable screentime). Yet it was still overall meh.

Good to know that what everyone said about it (and by everyone, I mean the small percentage of people who actually watched it) was true after all. Do they use the original musical songs or did they compose new music?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:50 pm 
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Quote:
Lol, I can't see Shan Yu singing and if Tarzan and Jane didn't sing, Clayton singing would be out of place too. Hades is the main outlier here.

To be honest, I thought it was a pity that the later villains didn't sing. But an singing Shan-Yu would've been out of place, nonetheless.

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That explains why she (Lindsay Ellis) hates Pocahontas as well then.

True, but I think Lindsay hates it due to the reasons why everybody else hates it. Due to it's po-faced and serious nature.

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Yes, I've heard that although I've always wanted to read the original source for that (the Hercules sequel). I think he would fight in the Trojan War.

Yup, here's the source; http://web.archive.org/web/20030605094621/http://www.animated-movies.net/Hercules.html. I find it highly remarkable that John Musker and Ron Clements were interested to work on a sequel, when it was most likely to become a direct to video-cheapquel. But I thought the idea sounded intriguing, though it would've been a callback to the original storyline, that was supposed to be about the Trojan War, anyways.

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I agree. And I'm glad the film was dramatized more although my complaint is that it needed even more drama. I love the film up until Mulan leaves for war. That's when it becomes really comedic (with the introduction of Mushu and Chien Po, Yao, and Ling) and I think the film suffers for it. The songs get weaker at this point too imo.

I've noticed that despite that people acknowledge Mulan for it's drama, it's still labeled as a comedy overall. Though Mulan is a pretty even mix of both, it's still labeled for the funny stuff. Many people thought that since both Pocahontas and Hunchback ventured into the drama, that Hercules and Mulan ventured into the comedic realm.

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Just to clarify, I don't think the final version of Yzma is a bad villain and she's super popular in some circles, but like Andreas Deja and Eartha Kitt, I would have prefered the earlier version of her. At the same time, if Andreas Deja hadn't left the film, we wouldn't have gotten him to do Lilo in Lilo & Stitch since he took that assignment because he quit Yzma.

Yeah, Yzma looked superior in her early designs, at least she does has a fuller look. And I think she could've been a great villain. Well, the fact that Andreas Deja wanted to do Lilo shows his versatility. That he didn't only wanted to do villains, since he made three of the pivotal Renaissance villains in a row (frankly, as a kid I thought it was weird that he didn't supervise Ursula as well). But frankly, I'm not to keen on the design on the humans on Lilo & Stitch, as they look like they came from a Nickelodeon series.

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Thanks for posting the links! I've read similar content but never those two specific articles.

You're welcome. Those articles are truly a must-read for any Kingdom of the Sun-fans.

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Yes, I can't find the specific article (about Roy Disney supporting Treasure Planet) I once read but I've this which is even more interesting: a review on IMDB.

Thanks for posting that link. I didn't knew that he was behind Treasure Planet, due to how the executives were iffy about it in the first place. But why wouldn't they be? The premise could've been perceived as laughable, no offense.

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Glad you appreciated the info! I didn't realize Eisner pushed those aspects of the film which gives me greater respect for him. Only wish he had done a little more and toned down the gargoyles or at least Hugo. Thanks for the link although none of the text shows up for me and only about half the pictures unfortunately. Is there anything specific in there you wanted to show me?

Well, I wanted you to see where it's cited that Eisner loved the movie.

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I think the fairies in Tam Lin are more like Maleficent rather than the sparkly Pixie Hollow ones. The Fairfolk basically so something akin to the Enchantress in Beauty and the Beast as well where they aren't miniscule in size and have wings with wands but are these gorgeous supernatural creatures who can be quite malicious and sinister if wronged. The villainess is like that for example. I'd hope the film would be anything but reminiscent of the Tinker Bell films lol.

Hmmm, okay. Thanks for sharing. The premise sounds intriguing, but why wouldn't you want the film to be like the Tinker Bell franchise?

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Lol, at least he (my friend through e-mail) must provide some interesting conversation.

We used to have and I liked him for being an intelligent guy. Yet I've eventually realized that he used to copy and paste opinions and statements from other users and reviewers. But I've lost touch with him and it's a pity that I have, since I liked discussing Disney and animation with him.

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I'd love for him to do a live-action Tarzan remake especially if it meant Disney had to get the rights again. They could actually promote the animated film. However, I think Favreau's next project is The Jungle Book sequel and with the success of The Lion King (and plans to make an Aladdin sequel), he might work on a Lion King sequel after that.

I've would've love him to do live-action Tarzan remake as well and it would've been a full circle for him for of my aforementioned reasons. It's remarkable that we haven't heard anything about The Jungle Book yet, but I've read that they would explore ideas that were discarded from Walt. Wonder how a sequel to The Lion King will be like, if it's going to be just like Simba's Pride.

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That reminds me that I need to listen to audio commentaries more. I've seen all the major Cine-Explore features or visual commentaries akin to that for films like Alice in Wonderland, Sleeping Beauty, Pinocchio, Dumbo, Bambi, Finding Nemo, and Toy Story 3 but I haven't bothered with any traditional commentaries yet.

Really? Why is that?

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I think the main reason we see the extreme negative reaction now is because there's been so many being churned out. This year alone we've had Dumbo, Aladdin, and The Lion King and Lady and the Tramp is still set to debut later on this year. Not to mention Maleficent 2.

Fair enough. I think the sequels of these remakes are more likely to be criticized, due to how they serve as cash grabs (cough, 102 Dalmatians, cough). From what I've seen from the teaser for Maleficent Mistress of Evil, the plot seems just outright ridiculous. I've heard rumors about a sequel to the live action Beauty and the Beast, but I cannot picture the story being continued.

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Good to know that what everyone said about The King and I (and by everyone, I mean the small percentage of people who actually watched it) was true after all. Do they use the original musical songs or did they compose new music?

Dunno, I don't know about the original to know about it.


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