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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:45 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
When she went to him during her dance in the Feast of Fools and wrapped her scarf around him.

Perhaps not exactly manipulative, but it was still a kiss that was meant to "convince" him to let her come to visit her, so she was playing her female intuition to him. It wasn't just an innocent kiss.

Yeah, but I thought the nineties heroines were still distinctive enough to make them individuals and how to make their strength and proactiveness work. At least while they shared similar traits, they didn't felt as they duplicated each other. I've seen some people compare Meg and Anya for their sassiness, but I still thought they were sassy in a different ways. And manic pixie girl, what is that?


To be honest, I've always wondered about that scene myself. For someone who hates Frollo and everything he stands for, I can't imagine why she would want to go anywhere near him, let alone straddle his lap. I suppose she felt that this was the one day in the year that she could get away with irritating with him and since he's such an ethical and moral pillar of society, this would especially inflame him and he wouldn't really be able to do anything about it. I doubt she realized the effect it would have on him though and how obsessive he would become.

I always felt the kiss was to calm Quasi down since he gets nervous and starts rambling on about his schedule then. I guess she did know what she was doing with her kiss, but I would still call it innocent myself. I don't think she meant it romantically or felt that she viewed him that way. Never in the movie do we get an indication that she knows he is falling for her, unlike Phoebus who notes it several times, probably because he has the same feelings for her.

I think the 90s heroines are quite fleshed out and different from each other. In fact, the current heroines from the Revival era are much interchangeable. Meg has deadpan humor while Anya is more snarky. The manic pixie dream girl is a very quirky and upbeat girl whose purpose is to make a cynical man fully embrace life (and usually the girl as well).

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:37 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
To be honest, I've always wondered about that scene myself. For someone who hates Frollo and everything he stands for, I can't imagine why she would want to go anywhere near him, let alone straddle his lap. I suppose she felt that this was the one day in the year that she could get away with irritating with him and since he's such an ethical and moral pillar of society, this would especially inflame him and he wouldn't really be able to do anything about it. I doubt she realized the effect it would have on him though and how obsessive he would become.

Exactly. That's why even Clopin dares to touch him. I'm not blaming Esmeralda for Frollo's obsessive hunt after her, but perhaps she could've been more cautious. But it's a pity that the movie never dwells on Esmeralda's knowledge about him priorly (since most likely it was the first time her ever saw her).

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I always felt the kiss was to calm Quasi down since he gets nervous and starts rambling on about his schedule then. I guess she did know what she was doing with her kiss, but I would still call it innocent myself. I don't think she meant it romantically or felt that she viewed him that way. Never in the movie do we get an indication that she knows he is falling for her, unlike Phoebus who notes it several times, probably because he has the same feelings for her.

Perhaps, but Esmeralda wasn't exactly dumb. She was intuitive, so perhaps she knew. Obviously Phoebus knew, since he indicated it. I think Esmeralda and Quasimodo's relationship suffered a little bit from bad writing. They had one day where Esmeralda truly showed her devotion for him and the following way she was (not callously) using him to hide her love interest. They deserved to have more moments together than just one day, so it would resonate Quasi's final devotion to her more.

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The manic pixie dream girl is a very quirky and upbeat girl whose purpose is to make a cynical man fully embrace life (and usually the girl as well)

Aaaaw, okay. I didn't know.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:18 am 
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The term Manic Pixie Dream Girl is much like Mary Sue, overused and not properly applied. I feel some people just call female characters MPDGs and Mary Sues just because they don't like them rather than them fitting the term well. I've seen Ariel be called a Pixie and Mulan a Mary Sue, and they couldn't be far from the truth...

Also, another one to the list: Burton's Alice. Flat performance and I rather blame her / her movie to starting this live action remake/adaptation craze.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:41 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Exactly. That's why even Clopin dares to touch him. I'm not blaming Esmeralda for Frollo's obsessive hunt after her, but perhaps she could've been more cautious. But it's a pity that the movie never dwells on Esmeralda's knowledge about him priorly (since most likely it was the first time her ever saw her).

Perhaps, but Esmeralda wasn't exactly dumb. She was intuitive, so perhaps she knew. Obviously Phoebus knew, since he indicated it. I think Esmeralda and Quasimodo's relationship suffered a little bit from bad writing. They had one day where Esmeralda truly showed her devotion for him and the following way she was (not callously) using him to hide her love interest. They deserved to have more moments together than just one day, so it would resonate Quasi's final devotion to her more.

It makes me wonder who the entertainment was for previous years of the Festival of Fools since Frollo complains about having to go every year. This must have been Esmeralda's debut, at least at the Festival of Fools.

She's street-smarts and quick on her feet, but she seems like a bit of a loner (like the gender-bent version of Aladdin). Her closest companion is a goat and she doesn't seem especially close to any of the other Romani people. She could read Quasi's insecurities and tell that he's been brainwashed, but I don't think she realized his intense feelings for her, but this is my reading. Notice that she's apologizing to Quasi when she's chasing after him but mid-apology she stops when she sees how beautiful his room is and the subject is dropped after that. I think the whole situation swept her away, so she wasn't exactly looking at for what his feelings were at the time.

I can see what you mean about how Quasi and Esmeralda's relationship is speed up, which is funny, because usually Disney's romantic couples get flack for not having enough development. I suppose that just shows how intense Quasi's feelings for Esmeralda are because she's the first ever person to show kindness to him, whereas it also explains why she only regards him as a friend and nothing else. A Guy Like You also has the purpose then to intensify Quasi's feelings for her with the gargoyles egging him on, despite the fact that he's really only known her from three separate encounters on a previous day.

thedisneyspirit wrote:
The term Manic Pixie Dream Girl is much like Mary Sue, overused and not properly applied. I feel some people just call female characters MPDGs and Mary Sues just because they don't like them rather than them fitting the term well. I've seen Ariel be called a Pixie and Mulan a Mary Sue, and they couldn't be far from the truth...

I definitely don't see Ariel and Mulan as either of those, however I do think Rapunzel fits under both labels. I know I've been guilty of calling her a Mary Sue quite often here.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:25 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
It makes me wonder who the entertainment was for previous years of the Festival of Fools since Frollo complains about having to go every year. This must have been Esmeralda's debut, at least at the Festival of Fools.

Most likely, yeah. Otherwise it would've been bad writing from the screenwriters :P

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She's street-smarts and quick on her feet, but she seems like a bit of a loner (like the gender-bent version of Aladdin). Her closest companion is a goat and she doesn't seem especially close to any of the other Romani people. She could read Quasi's insecurities and tell that he's been brainwashed, but I don't think she realized his intense feelings for her, but this is my reading. Notice that she's apologizing to Quasi when she's chasing after him but mid-apology she stops when she sees how beautiful his room is and the subject is dropped after that. I think the whole situation swept her away, so she wasn't exactly looking at for what his feelings were at the time.

It's synergetic that you mention the Aladdin comparison, because I also saw Esmeralda as male version of Aladdin, in terms of being raised on the street (I was tempted to say streetrat, but that would've been non-PC :P). And if you'll go even further, she could've even been perceived as a feature-length movie version of Sadira from the Aladdin series (if you remember her), just a nicer one. I even used to think that Aladdin and Esmeralda could've made a good couple, but lately I've come to terms that Esmeralda may have been to mature for Aladdin.

At least it's redeemable that she at least apologized to Quasi. Perhaps she didn't realized his intense feelings for her, yet she was fairly intuitive and intelligent enough to realize what was going on (though to be fair, she did ask Phoebus about his intentions when she realized that he wasn't going to arrest her :P)

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I can see what you mean about how Quasi and Esmeralda's relationship is speed up, which is funny, because usually Disney's romantic couples get flack for not having enough development. I suppose that just shows how intense Quasi's feelings for Esmeralda are because she's the first ever person to show kindness to him, whereas it also explains why she only regards him as a friend and nothing else. A Guy Like You also has the purpose then to intensify Quasi's feelings for her with the gargoyles egging him on, despite the fact that he's really only known her from three separate encounters on a previous day.

Hahahaha. At least the romantic relationships has evolved since Walt's days, since those relationships were sped up. However, not only romantic couples have their development sped up (cough, The Fox and the Hound, cough).

Otherwise it would be fair to label Quasi and Esmeralda's relationship as having the same development problem, since there is a crush from one side. However, Heavens Light had also the same purpose as A Guy Like You, just from Quasi's point of view

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I definitely don't see Ariel and Mulan as either of those, however I do think Rapunzel fits under both labels. I know I've been guilty of calling her a Mary Sue quite often here.

True, but I think Rapunzel is endearing and innocent enough to get away from the Mary Sue stamp.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:47 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
It makes me wonder who the entertainment was for previous years of the Festival of Fools since Frollo complains about having to go every year. This must have been Esmeralda's debut, at least at the Festival of Fools.


"See the finest girl in France, make an entrance to enchance!" - Seems to suggest it's her first time performing.

JeanGreyForever wrote:
I definitely don't see Ariel and Mulan as either of those, however I do think Rapunzel fits under both labels. I know I've been guilty of calling her a Mary Sue quite often here.


Honestly, only Rapunzel and Anna are Pixies (makes sense with Anna, since she's Rapunzel's clone in so many aspects). And the true Mary Sues of the line that really fit well the characteristics are probably Snow, Belle, Rapunzel and Moana. But again, a Mary Sue can be likable, you just have to observe if the narrative romanticizes her actions or not (i.e. Hermione Granger from Harry Potter does a lot of heinous stuff but the text excuses it time and time again...).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:25 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
It's synergetic that you mention the Aladdin comparison, because I also saw Esmeralda as male version of Aladdin, in terms of being raised on the street (I was tempted to say streetrat, but that would've been non-PC :P). And if you'll go even further, she could've even been perceived as a feature-length movie version of Sadira from the Aladdin series (if you remember her), just a nicer one. I even used to think that Aladdin and Esmeralda could've made a good couple, but lately I've come to terms that Esmeralda may have been to mature for Aladdin.

At least it's redeemable that she at least apologized to Quasi. Perhaps she didn't realized his intense feelings for her, yet she was fairly intuitive and intelligent enough to realize what was going on (though to be fair, she did ask Phoebus about his intentions when she realized that he wasn't going to arrest her :P)

Hahahaha. At least the romantic relationships has evolved since Walt's days, since those relationships were sped up. However, not only romantic couples have their development sped up (cough, The Fox and the Hound, cough).

Otherwise it would be fair to label Quasi and Esmeralda's relationship as having the same development problem, since there is a crush from one side. However, Heavens Light had also the same purpose as A Guy Like You, just from Quasi's point of view

True, but I think Rapunzel is endearing and innocent enough to get away from the Mary Sue stamp.

I never actually considered a comparison between Esmeralda and Sadira before. I suppose as a Jasmine fan, I've never been too fond of Sadira and I always viewed her as manipulative and petty, but I don't really remember the episodes after she reformed so that may cloud my opinion on her. Aladdin is very boyish compared to Esmeralda so I agree that I can't see them as a couple, but I could see them as friends.

I think part of the reason that Esmeralda fails to recognize both Quasi and Phoebus' feelings for her, are because she's more used to seeing something along the lines of what Frollo feels for her. Lust rather than genuine romantic feelings. Out of the three men who are interested in Esmeralda, Quasi reflects that the least so it doesn't come across as strange to me that she would be oblivious to his feelings for her. I've heard many people say that their reading of Esmeralda is that she's quite a romantic person at heart, however the life she's lived has taught her never to trust or depend on anyone else but herself. She's given up on the idea of a happy ending and a partner who can love and cherish her for her. That changes with Phoebus and you can get a little bit of an inkling to that in the musical. In the song, In a Place of Miracles, there's a few verses where Esmeralda voices these same feelings I've mentioned.

I don't really mind the Walt-era romances since those were largely symbolic. In fairy tales, the prince and princess always fall in love (at least they used to before this current age of deconstructing fairy tales) so there wasn't much of a need to spend time on the actual development of a romance. Hence, why love sequences like One Song and So This is Love are enough to get the audience to root for Snow White and Cinderella to be reunited with their princes. That clearly wouldn't work for more contemporary audiences though. When Disney wanted to create a compelling romance, they certainly could as seen with Lady and the Tramp. The Fox and the Hound's Vixey is one of the worst characters in the Disney canon for me but romance was never an integral part of The Fox and the Hound. Considering how dark that storyline gets in the actual book, I can't help but wonder if The Fox and the Hound should have just scrapped her character altogether, although I guess her role was necessary to keep Tod in the forest.

A Guy Like You is totally unnecessary imo and from what I've seen of the original script's outline, the song wasn't even included. I think when In a Place of Miracles was cut, then the song was shoehorned in. Another reason why the former song should have been retained.

She certainly has quite a fanbase these days that rivals some of the most popular princesses. I've never been a fan of her at all though, personality wise or appearance wise. I even prefer the Barbie version which is saying something.

thedisneyspirit wrote:
Honestly, only Rapunzel and Anna are Pixies (makes sense with Anna, since she's Rapunzel's clone in so many aspects). And the true Mary Sues of the line that really fit well the characteristics are probably Snow, Belle, Rapunzel and Moana. But again, a Mary Sue can be likable, you just have to observe if the narrative romanticizes her actions or not (i.e. Hermione Granger from Harry Potter does a lot of heinous stuff but the text excuses it time and time again...).


I've never considered Snow White to be a Mary Sue and I judge her less harshly, not only because she was a product of her time, but also because it was the first attempt to really flesh out an animated character. She certainly has her faults like an overactive imagination (which I don't really fault her with), and being slightly bossy and even manipulative if you look at her deleted scene with the dwarfs. Belle gets accused of being a Mary Sue a lot, but I don't find her to be insufferable the way Rapunzel and Moana are but that may be nostalgia talking. The latter two are portrayed as perfectly capable in everything they do and it's more annoying because they take on far more active roles than Belle ever does in their films. Moana, at worst, comes off as a generalized cliche of the heroines who came before her, but Rapunzel is just an unrealistic look altogether for someone in her situation.

Do the Harry Potter books really excuse Hermione's actions though? I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue precisely because she is portrayed as flawed in the books, whereas the movies make her come off as more perfect. Just a few examples include her underhanded techniques to free house-elfs with S.P.E.W., her irritation that Harry performs better than her in Potions in their sixth-year, cursing Marietta Edgecombe with a facial disfigurement, etc. Not to mention that while she doesn't relentlessly tease Luna like some others, she isn't ever particularly kind to her and openly voices her disdain for Luna's beliefs. The books even make clear that Harry doesn't enjoy his friendship with Hermione as much as he does his friendship with Ron in The Goblet of Fire. When Ron and him are feuding, he realizes how alone and miserable he feels because Hermione isn't as fun and enjoyable as Ron was. The movies slight over all of this whereas the books portray that she's imperfect and quite heavily flawed

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:01 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I never actually considered a comparison between Esmeralda and Sadira before. I suppose as a Jasmine fan, I've never been too fond of Sadira and I always viewed her as manipulative and petty, but I don't really remember the episodes after she reformed so that may cloud my opinion on her. Aladdin is very boyish compared to Esmeralda so I agree that I can't see them as a couple, but I could see them as friends.

Perhaps the comparison between Esmeralda and Sadira is a shallow one, due to that comparison is due to them both being streetrats (yes, I dared to use that term ;)), but at least it could be conceived as rather fair after all. I never hated Sadira, but for all her shortcomings, she had a genuine arc and was never completely evil (when she's first introduced and captures Jasmine, she doesn't want to hurt Jasmine). Heck, I even felt genuinely sorry for Sadira in the episode where she had to redeem herself.

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I think part of the reason that Esmeralda fails to recognize both Quasi and Phoebus' feelings for her, are because she's more used to seeing something along the lines of what Frollo feels for her. Lust rather than genuine romantic feelings. Out of the three men who are interested in Esmeralda, Quasi reflects that the least so it doesn't come across as strange to me that she would be oblivious to his feelings for her. I've heard many people say that their reading of Esmeralda is that she's quite a romantic person at heart, however the life she's lived has taught her never to trust or depend on anyone else but herself. She's given up on the idea of a happy ending and a partner who can love and cherish her for her. That changes with Phoebus and you can get a little bit of an inkling to that in the musical. In the song, In a Place of Miracles, there's a few verses where Esmeralda voices these same feelings I've mentioned.

That's a good analysis. In many ways, it's a pity that both In a Place of Miracles and As Long as There's a Moon were discarded, since both serves a purpose in enhancing Esmeralda and Phoebus' relationships, especially the former, where Quasi does acknowledges their friendship as well.

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A Guy Like You is totally unnecessary imo and from what I've seen of the original script's outline, the song wasn't even included. I think when In a Place of Miracles was cut, then the song was shoehorned in. Another reason why the former song should have been retained.

Really? Where did you read that? A Guy Like You was a shoehorned number that was just in for the formulas sake, though I don't utterly despise the song as the majority does. It's misplaced, but I don't consider it to be completely horrible either.

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She certainly has quite a fanbase these days that rivals some of the most popular princesses. I've never been a fan of her at all though, personality wise or appearance wise. I even prefer the Barbie version which is saying something.

OK. I've never seen the Barbie Versions, but I've always wanted to. I'm not a die-hard fan of Rapunzel herself, but I think she's endearing enough to pass for me. Most people have called her an Ariel-clone, but frankly I can't see it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:21 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Perhaps the comparison between Esmeralda and Sadira is a shallow one, due to that comparison is due to them both being streetrats (yes, I dared to use that term ;)), but at least it could be conceived as rather fair after all. I never hated Sadira, but for all her shortcomings, she had a genuine arc and was never completely evil (when she's first introduced and captures Jasmine, she doesn't want to hurt Jasmine). Heck, I even felt genuinely sorry for Sadira in the episode where she had to redeem herself.

That's a good analysis. In many ways, it's a pity that both In a Place of Miracles and As Long as There's a Moon were discarded, since both serves a purpose in enhancing Esmeralda and Phoebus' relationships, especially the former, where Quasi does acknowledges their friendship as well.

Really? Where did you read that? A Guy Like You was a shoehorned number that was just in for the formulas sake, though I don't utterly despise the song as the majority does. It's misplaced, but I don't consider it to be completely horrible either.

OK. I've never seen the Barbie Versions, but I've always wanted to. I'm not a die-hard fan of Rapunzel herself, but I think she's endearing enough to pass for me. Most people have called her an Ariel-clone, but frankly I can't see it.


I actually don't think a comparison between Esmeralda and Sadira is ssuper hallow, it's just that I don't remember enough about her anymore besides a few stock traits. I only have my memories to go by which were colored by my dislike of anyone with Aladdin who isn't Jasmine.

I love both songs as well, the former especially since it gives us a duet between Phoebus and Esmeralda and I love Quasi's fantasy sequence where he imagines being a regular looking guy and being the one dancing with Esmeralda. Not to mention how the song ends with him about to pair Phoebus and Esmeralda together. I know both songs were cut because they apparently took the focus off of Quasi but I really disagree with that.

I'm just theorizing that A Guy Like You was added into the film after In a Place of Miracles was cut so that the film wouldn't feel disproportionate with more songs in the first half than in the second.
http://ronhusband.blogspot.com/2014/10/ ... e-and.html
The first picture on this link to Ron Husband's blog (the animator of Djali) features an outline for all of the film's sequences. Note that this is an early version because Someday exists instead of God Help the Outcasts and In a Place of Miracles is also still intact. There is no A Guy Like You here. It seems like right after the mill scene, Esmeralda would reach out to Quasi and ask him to shelter Phoebus, skipping all the exposition with the song. Another interesting thing I noted was that there was a Dungeon Scene right after Frollo invades the Court of Miracles and before Esmeralda's execution. That explains where the scene comes from in the stage adaptations. Wish they could have kept this scene for the final film and used Someday for this song as Esmeralda's final prayer as she's led to the scaffold. It's also important to note though that The Court of Miracles song isn't specified in this outline either, although it could have been part of the "In the Gypsy Hideout" sequence even when this outline was created.

I've always liked the old fairy tale Barbie movies. Barbie as Rapunzel isn't a musical but it has some gorgeous melodies which top anything I heard in Tangled, although I certainly don't blame Menken for that. I'll probably have to revisit Barbie in the Nutcracker soon after I end up watching The Nutcracker and the Four Realms to wipe it out of my memory lol. Rapunzel's 2D design definitely has a resemblance to Ariel but personality wise, I see her as more of an Ariel knockoff or wannabe than an exact clone.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:08 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I actually don't think a comparison between Esmeralda and Sadira is ssuper hallow, it's just that I don't remember enough about her anymore besides a few stock traits. I only have my memories to go by which were colored by my dislike of anyone with Aladdin who isn't Jasmine.

Remember that Jasmine had her suitors as well, not only on the feature movie.

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I love both songs as well, the former especially since it gives us a duet between Phoebus and Esmeralda and I love Quasi's fantasy sequence where he imagines being a regular looking guy and being the one dancing with Esmeralda. Not to mention how the song ends with him about to pair Phoebus and Esmeralda together. I know both songs were cut because they apparently took the focus off of Quasi but I really disagree with that.

Yeah, both songs are fine enough, but as you said, a benefit from both of them are the duets between Phoebus and Esmeralda, since it was missing from the feature film. As a kid I liked the love duets and I thought it was remarkable that the nineties films threw them away so early (as a Norwegian kid I didn't know about If I Never Knew You being an actual song in the movie Pocahontas itself and not just the end credit single and thought it was awfully remarkable that for being a love story, Pocahontas lacked a romantic number, though the absence in Hunchback is after all more justifiable, since the lovebirds aren't the main leads).
I also wished that In a Place of Miracles was in because of the fantasy sequence of Phoebus and Esmeralda, which would've given the film a different location. And it would've been interesting to see how Esmeralda's Gypsy wedding gown would've looked like had it been animated.

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I'm just theorizing that A Guy Like You was added into the film after In a Place of Miracles was cut so that the film wouldn't feel disproportionate with more songs in the first half than in the second.
http://ronhusband.blogspot.com/2014/10/ ... e-and.html
The first picture on this link to Ron Husband's blog (the animator of Djali) features an outline for all of the film's sequences. Note that this is an early version because Someday exists instead of God Help the Outcasts and In a Place of Miracles is also still intact. There is no A Guy Like You here. It seems like right after the mill scene, Esmeralda would reach out to Quasi and ask him to shelter Phoebus, skipping all the exposition with the song. Another interesting thing I noted was that there was a Dungeon Scene right after Frollo invades the Court of Miracles and before Esmeralda's execution. That explains where the scene comes from in the stage adaptations. Wish they could have kept this scene for the final film and used Someday for this song as Esmeralda's final prayer as she's led to the scaffold. It's also important to note though that The Court of Miracles song isn't specified in this outline either, although it could have been part of the "In the Gypsy Hideout" sequence even when this outline was created.

OK. Thanks for linking me that page, it was really interesting to see. In fact, it's always truly intriguing to see animators blogs and such.

It seems like A Guy Like You was shoehorned in just in sake to light the mood up. Little would the directors know that it would've become one of the most loathed Disney moments ever :P

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I've always liked the old fairy tale Barbie movies. Barbie as Rapunzel isn't a musical but it has some gorgeous melodies which top anything I heard in Tangled, although I certainly don't blame Menken for that. I'll probably have to revisit Barbie in the Nutcracker soon after I end up watching The Nutcracker and the Four Realms to wipe it out of my memory lol. Rapunzel's 2D design definitely has a resemblance to Ariel but personality wise, I see her as more of an Ariel knockoff or wannabe thOan an exact clone.

OK. Now I'm even more eager to see the Barbie films, haha! :D


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:01 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Remember that Jasmine had her suitors as well, not only on the feature movie.

Yeah, both songs are fine enough, but as you said, a benefit from both of them are the duets between Phoebus and Esmeralda, since it was missing from the feature film. As a kid I liked the love duets and I thought it was remarkable that the nineties films threw them away so early (as a Norwegian kid I didn't know about If I Never Knew You being an actual song in the movie Pocahontas itself and not just the end credit single and thought it was awfully remarkable that for being a love story, Pocahontas lacked a romantic number, though the absence in Hunchback is after all more justifiable, since the lovebirds aren't the main leads).
I also wished that In a Place of Miracles was in because of the fantasy sequence of Phoebus and Esmeralda, which would've given the film a different location. And it would've been interesting to see how Esmeralda's Gypsy wedding gown would've looked like had it been animated.

OK. Thanks for linking me that page, it was really interesting to see. In fact, it's always truly intriguing to see animators blogs and such.

It seems like A Guy Like You was shoehorned in just in sake to light the mood up. Little would the directors know that it would've become one of the most loathed Disney moments ever :P

OK. Now I'm even more eager to see the Barbie films, haha! :D

I remember one episode of Aladdin in particular where Jasmine has a suitor visiting and Aladdin gets really jealous. I think it was early on in Season 1. I always thought it was strange that Jasmine was still getting suitors even though she was all but formally engaged to Aladdin.

I grew up with the Pocahontas VHS so I wasn't aware either of the cut song until the 10th Anniversary Edition brought it back. I remember there were lots of complaints when Pocahontas was released about how a musical love story didn't have a single love song between the two romantic leads.

I would have loved to have seen the fantasy sequence for Hunchback as well. It feels a little out of place at first (although not nearly as much as A Guy Like You), but it hearkens back to the cut sequence for Someday My Prince Will Come in Snow White, so to me, it still has the Disney touch. Not to mention, Snow White is another movie with some very dark moments so I thought it was appropriate to connect it, Disney's first film, to Hunchback, arguably one of Disney's most audacious and greatest. The wedding dress Esmeralda wears is in As Long as There's a Moon but maybe she was also wearing a wedding dress in the fantasy sequence for In a Place of Miracles. Her hair has certainly been tamed with a formal headpiece and her dress looks different.

That blog was also illuminating because Ron Husband always refers to Djali as a female in his notes, which she also was in the original book. Somehow, by the time the movie was finalized, Djali became male or at least referred to as male.

Glad you're even more excited now to see the Barbie films lol. Tangled actually takes a lot from the Barbie Rapunzel version, although I don't know if it's just a coincidence or not. Her actually being born a princess, wearing a purple dress, having a reptilian sidekick, and a passion for painting.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:21 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I remember one episode of Aladdin in particular where Jasmine has a suitor visiting and Aladdin gets really jealous. I think it was early on in Season 1. I always thought it was strange that Jasmine was still getting suitors even though she was all but formally engaged to Aladdin.

True, but every story needs a conflict. Besides, Aladdin didn't only have Sadira who was after our titular lad (as the mermaid Saleen and the blonde love interest of the Viking-esque character, if you remember her).

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I grew up with the Pocahontas VHS so I wasn't aware either of the cut song until the 10th Anniversary Edition brought it back. I remember there were lots of complaints when Pocahontas was released about how a musical love story didn't have a single love song between the two romantic leads.

I grew up with Pocahontas on VHS as well (and seeing it twice theatrically), so my knowledge about If I Never Knew You was just the same as yours (though being an Norwegian it wasn't strange). And yes, some reviewers at the time were complaining about the lack of a love ballad. Though IFNKY isn't my favorite among the songs of Pocahontas, it does gives their romance much needed substance and depth (I frankly prefer In the Middle of The River, which is a better song).

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I would have loved to have seen the fantasy sequence for Hunchback as well. It feels a little out of place at first (although not nearly as much as A Guy Like You), but it hearkens back to the cut sequence for Someday My Prince Will Come in Snow White, so to me, it still has the Disney touch. Not to mention, Snow White is another movie with some very dark moments so I thought it was appropriate to connect it, Disney's first film, to Hunchback, arguably one of Disney's most audacious and greatest. The wedding dress Esmeralda wears is in As Long as There's a Moon but maybe she was also wearing a wedding dress in the fantasy sequence for In a Place of Miracles. Her hair has certainly been tamed with a formal headpiece and her dress looks different.

So Hunchback is your definite favorite?

What a coincidence that you draw the comparison between Hunchback to Snow White, since frankly I saw a lot of elements from Walt's films on Hunchback. I know it may sound redundant, since Disney films are so frequently accused for recycling their components and tropes, at least I saw several references to Walt's films in Hunchback. Frollo comes across as a male version of Lady Tremaine and the Wicked Queen and Quasimodo's endearing innocence could've been linked to the child protagonists of Walt's era (as the titular characters of Pinocchio, Dumbo and Bambi). Frollo has a basket (which the Witch also had, a shallow notion, but still). Not to mention that Quaisi's mom gets blatantly killed. And Quasi is basically the first lead since the dwarfs to not be strappingly handsome (though of course the dwarfs comparison may be superfluous, they are more leads than Snow White's strapping Prince).

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That blog was also illuminating because Ron Husband always refers to Djali as a female in his notes, which she also was in the original book. Somehow, by the time the movie was finalized, Djali became male or at least referred to as male.

Yeah, I wonder why. I doubt there was a conscious decision about it, but at least it doesn't make LeFou from the live action versjon of Beauty and the Beast the first openly gay character :P.

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Glad you're even more excited now to see the Barbie films lol. Tangled actually takes a lot from the Barbie Rapunzel version, although I don't know if it's just a coincidence or not. Her actually being born a princess, wearing a purple dress, having a reptilian sidekick, and a passion for painting.

OK. You know what, since Disney are usually perceived as being synonymous with fairy tales, I've noticed that it's almost somewhat radical to actually claim love for non-Disney adaptation of fairy tales, since they've been perceived as "cheap". But since Tangled wasn't particularly great (in my opinion), I think I could've worshipped another version of Rapunzel instead. Besides, I thought the Barbie films were loathed.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:40 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
True, but every story needs a conflict. Besides, Aladdin didn't only have Sadira who was after our titular lad (as the mermaid Saleen and the blonde love interest of the Viking-esque character, if you remember her).

I grew up with Pocahontas on VHS as well (and seeing it twice theatrically), so my knowledge about If I Never Knew You was just the same as yours (though being an Norwegian it wasn't strange). And yes, some reviewers at the time were complaining about the lack of a love ballad. Though IFNKY isn't my favorite among the songs of Pocahontas, it does gives their romance much needed substance and depth (I frankly prefer In the Middle of The River, which is a better song).

So Hunchback is your definite favorite?

What a coincidence that you draw the comparison between Hunchback to Snow White, since frankly I saw a lot of elements from Walt's films on Hunchback. I know it may sound redundant, since Disney films are so frequently accused for recycling their components and tropes, at least I saw several references to Walt's films in Hunchback. Frollo comes across as a male version of Lady Tremaine and the Wicked Queen and Quasimodo's endearing innocence could've been linked to the child protagonists of Walt's era (as the titular characters of Pinocchio, Dumbo and Bambi). Frollo has a basket (which the Witch also had, a shallow notion, but still). Not to mention that Quaisi's mom gets blatantly killed. And Quasi is basically the first lead since the dwarfs to not be strappingly handsome (though of course the dwarfs comparison may be superfluous, they are more leads than Snow White's strapping Prince).

Yeah, I wonder why. I doubt there was a conscious decision about it, but at least it doesn't make LeFou from the live action versjon of Beauty and the Beast the first openly gay character :P.

OK. You know what, since Disney are usually perceived as being synonymous with fairy tales, I've noticed that it's almost somewhat radical to actually claim love for non-Disney adaptation of fairy tales, since they've been perceived as "cheap". But since Tangled wasn't particularly great (in my opinion), I think I could've worshipped another version of Rapunzel instead. Besides, I thought the Barbie films were loathed.

I remember Saleen but there are some episodes I never saw like the Amazon one and the viking one. I was never a fan of how Aladdin and Jasmine were only boyfriend and girlfriend in the sequels/series after the original film made such a big deal out of them having to be married. Even books and comics that were created right after the original film and before the sequel/series showed Aladdin and Jasmine as being married.

Over recent years, If I Never Knew You has become one of my favorite Disney love songs. It's hard for me to pick my favorite Pocahontas song because I love If I Never Knew You equally with Colors of the Wind and Just Around the Riverbend. I actually love In the Middle of the River as well. It's one of my favorite Disney deleted songs and I wish they could have found a spot for it in the movie, especially since Pocahontas lacks a big showstopping number like the films that came before it. It's ironic that If I Never Knew You replaced it but then even that song was cut. I know Stephen Schwartz loves the song a lot, but Menken seemed less keen on keeping In the Middle of the River. If there ever was a Broaday musical of Pocahontas, I'd love to see the song being used there.

The Little Mermaid is actually my favorite Disney movie, but Hunchback is probably my second.

I've heard of the Frollo comparison a lot, at least to Lady Tremaine, and even Stromboli to a lesser extent (which is ironic since Stromboli is actually referred to as a gypsy in Pinocchio so I'm sure Frollo wouldn't appreciate being likened to him). I honestly never compared him having a basket to the Witch from Snow White though, but that certainly works lol. I also never considered Quasi as one of the childlike protagonists that Walt frequently used, nor how he was the first lead since the dwarfs to be physically unattractive, but both of those things fit as well. The medieval time period reminded me of Sleeping Beauty and the French setting evoked Cinderella, as well as Sleeping Beauty. All the imagery of fire (particularly Hellfire) and the climax reminded me of Maleficent as well as the bonfire with all the spinning wheels. Phoebus as a knight in shining armor can also be reminiscent of Prince Phillip, which ties back to the medieval setting. The dungeon scene isn't too far off from the dungeons we see in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty either. Not to mention the song title "Someday" hearkens back to "Someday My Prince Will Come," at least for me. It helps that Esmeralda singing "Someday" is essentially a prayer, whereas Snow White actually does pray right after singing, so there's that theological connection to since Disney doesn't really showcase religion otherwise in their animated films.

I'm not sure that an obese and obnoxious gargoyle paired with a goat is a much more progressive choice for Disney's first gay couple though lol.

To be fair, most of the non-Disney fairy tales do tend to be cheap or at least feature lackluster animation or songs, not to mention underdeveloped character growth. Films like Thumbelina, The Swan Princess, and a few more come to mind here, although there are lots of elements to love from both those films. Rapunzel isn't a story that has too many adaptations in the first place, I suppose because it's difficult to create a narrative out of a character who can't leave her tower until the very end. Actually, the Barbie films have quite a fanbase, at least the early ones do. Most of those were based on fairy tales or were fantasy-based so they were more timeless, not to mention they all used Kelly Sheridan as the voice of Barbie. All the ones since then have been set in current times and have really cheap and predictable plots and you'll see Youtube full of comments with people asking that the Barbie movies be more like the first few ones released. The Nutcracker and Swan Lake ones actually took Tchaikovsky's music and used that for the score, much like Disney's Sleeping Beauty, although there aren't any songs like Once Upon a Dream sadly. There were even plans for a Barbie Sleeping Beauty film but Disney wasn't too keen on this which is why the movie never happened.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:36 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I remember Saleen but there are some episodes I never saw like the Amazon one and the viking one. I was never a fan of how Aladdin and Jasmine were only boyfriend and girlfriend in the sequels/series after the original film made such a big deal out of them having to be married. Even books and comics that were created right after the original film and before the sequel/series showed Aladdin and Jasmine as being married.

I used to find it odd that both The Return of Jafar and the series confirmed that they never actually got married, when the ending of the original Aladdin implied otherwise. John Musker and Ron Clements even confirms this in their Audio Commentary for the film.

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Over recent years, If I Never Knew You has become one of my favorite Disney love songs. It's hard for me to pick my favorite Pocahontas song because I love If I Never Knew You equally with Colors of the Wind and Just Around the Riverbend. I actually love In the Middle of the River as well. It's one of my favorite Disney deleted songs and I wish they could have found a spot for it in the movie, especially since Pocahontas lacks a big showstopping number like the films that came before it. It's ironic that If I Never Knew You replaced it but then even that song was cut. I know Stephen Schwartz loves the song a lot, but Menken seemed less keen on keeping In the Middle of the River. If there ever was a Broaday musical of Pocahontas, I'd love to see the song being used there.

I love all the songs from Pocahontas (though my affection for Virginia Company has been less than for the others). I think Just Around the Riverbend is my definite favorite. Though I've cited that I don't have the same affection for If I Never Knew You, I think the Movie Version reasonates and should've been kept in, mostly due to the full reprise of the song, which is even more heartbreaking and compelling than the Farewell-score.

I remember wondering if Pocahontas was going to have the big, showstopping number that it's Renaissance predecessors had before seeing the movie. Some people have called both Colors of the Wind and Mine, Mine, Mine for the showstopping number pieces of the show (which is understandable, haha).

I think Pocahontas would've definitively benefited from a stage/Broadway show. For all the Buzz Hunchback gets for being neglected, at least Pocahontas haven't even got a Broadway show.

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The Little Mermaid is actually my favorite Disney movie, but Hunchback is probably my second.

OK. I did like Mermaid in my childhood, but I was never obsessed with it. I like it better now, but Hunchback has reasonated more With me.

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I've heard of the Frollo comparison a lot, at least to Lady Tremaine, and even Stromboli to a lesser extent (which is ironic since Stromboli is actually referred to as a gypsy in Pinocchio so I'm sure Frollo wouldn't appreciate being likened to him).

Hahaha. I've read in Disney Adventures that Tony Jay cites that Frollo would've most likely teamed up with Stromboli and Scar.

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The dungeon scene isn't too far off from the dungeons we see in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty either.

True, but both dungeon scenes were more elaborate in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty.

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Not to mention the song title "Someday" hearkens back to "Someday My Prince Will Come," at least for me. It helps that Esmeralda singing "Someday" is essentially a prayer, whereas Snow White actually does pray right after singing, so there's that theological connection to since Disney doesn't really showcase religion otherwise in their animated films.

True and both songs have the Word Someday :P

It's synergetic how you mention that both Snow White and Hunchback has their religious moments, since even The Three Commentears mention them.

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I'm not sure that an obese and obnoxious gargoyle paired with a goat is a much more progressive choice for Disney's first gay couple though lol.

I know, right? But there are stereotypes about gays being obese. But let's not forget all the theories about Shang being bisexual (though I don't believe them).

Quote:
To be fair, most of the non-Disney fairy tales do tend to be cheap or at least feature lackluster animation or songs, not to mention underdeveloped character growth. Films like Thumbelina, The Swan Princess, and a few more come to mind here, although there are lots of elements to love from both those films. Rapunzel isn't a story that has too many adaptations in the first place, I suppose because it's difficult to create a narrative out of a character who can't leave her tower until the very end. Actually, the Barbie films have quite a fanbase, at least the early ones do. Most of those were based on fairy tales or were fantasy-based so they were more timeless, not to mention they all used Kelly Sheridan as the voice of Barbie. All the ones since then have been set in current times and have really cheap and predictable plots and you'll see Youtube full of comments with people asking that the Barbie movies be more like the first few ones released. The Nutcracker and Swan Lake ones actually took Tchaikovsky's music and used that for the score, much like Disney's Sleeping Beauty, although there aren't any songs like Once Upon a Dream sadly. There were even plans for a Barbie Sleeping Beauty film but Disney wasn't too keen on this which is why the movie never happened.

OK. I've never seen Thumberlina, but I love The Swan Princess. However, I do agree that the character Development in the latter Movie is a little cluttered. Odette wants to be loved for herself, yet her relationship With Derek isn't expanded enough to justify it. And while being captured, Our lovebirds yearn for each other so much that you would think they loved each other all along (and not to mention that the film never shows Odette's grieving on her own father).


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:11 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I used to find it odd that both The Return of Jafar and the series confirmed that they never actually got married, when the ending of the original Aladdin implied otherwise. John Musker and Ron Clements even confirms this in their Audio Commentary for the film.

I love all the songs from Pocahontas (though my affection for Virginia Company has been less than for the others). I think Just Around the Riverbend is my definite favorite. Though I've cited that I don't have the same affection for If I Never Knew You, I think the Movie Version reasonates and should've been kept in, mostly due to the full reprise of the song, which is even more heartbreaking and compelling than the Farewell-score.

I remember wondering if Pocahontas was going to have the big, showstopping number that it's Renaissance predecessors had before seeing the movie. Some people have called both Colors of the Wind and Mine, Mine, Mine for the showstopping number pieces of the show (which is understandable, haha).

I think Pocahontas would've definitively benefited from a stage/Broadway show. For all the Buzz Hunchback gets for being neglected, at least Pocahontas haven't even got a Broadway show.
OK. I did like Mermaid in my childhood, but I was never obsessed with it. I like it better now, but Hunchback has reasonated more With me.

Hahaha. I've read in Disney Adventures that Tony Jay cites that Frollo would've most likely teamed up with Stromboli and Scar.

True, but both dungeon scenes were more elaborate in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty.

True and both songs have the Word Someday :P

It's synergetic how you mention that both Snow White and Hunchback has their religious moments, since even The Three Commentears mention them.

I know, right? But there are stereotypes about gays being obese. But let's not forget all the theories about Shang being bisexual (though I don't believe them).

OK. I've never seen Thumberlina, but I love The Swan Princess. However, I do agree that the character Development in the latter Movie is a little cluttered. Odette wants to be loved for herself, yet her relationship With Derek isn't expanded enough to justify it. And while being captured, Our lovebirds yearn for each other so much that you would think they loved each other all along (and not to mention that the film never shows Odette's grieving on her own father).


I haven't listened to the commentary but I'm not surprised by what Musker and Clements said. From what I remember, Disney even had some a pin with Aladdin and Jasmine in their ending purple outfits and it was described as their wedding.

I love the If I Never Knew You reprise although I'm not sure which one I prefer: the shortened reprise we hear in the extended 10th anniversary film or the concept version that was originally planned and features more verses sung.

Colors of the Wind could function as the showstopping number, although it reminds me more of Circle of Life, considering both are quite epic in their tone and both were used as initial trailers for their respective films. I wish we could have another song like that which is epic enough to be the trailer for a new Disney movie, but those days seem behind us. I'm sure Menken could do it though since he penned one of the two songs that served as a trailer.

I remember reading an article that after Disney had set up Broadway shows for Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King, Pocahontas was next. This was in the late 90s, so somewhere in those years, plans for a Pocahontas show must have been scrapped. Maybe they turned their attention to Hunchback since that was such a huge hit in Germany and they considered adapting it to an English version. Or maybe because Disney got started on Aida, they felt they didn't need another star-crossed lovers musical at the same time. I wish we could have seen Pocahontas on stage though since it's unlikely Disney will adapt it now. They could have chosen that over Aida and focused on making Aida an animated feature instead, before making a stage adaptation.

Were you more of a Beauty and the Beast fan? There seems to have always been a rivalry between that film and TLM (similar as to how Tangled and Frozen fandoms are usually warring with each other). In my experience, fans who loved The Little Mermaid usually weren't as keen on BATB and vice-versa.

Stromboli's ethnic background isn't that well known and most people would just associate him with being Italian considering he's got so many stereotypical Italian qualities. I think only Honest John refers to him as a gypsy a few times in the film, otherwise it isn't mentioned. Otherwise, I can see why Frollo would work well with Stromboli and Scar. Ratcliffe I suppose isn't competent enough a leader to be on the same level

Yes, the dungeon scenes in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty are much longer than the minute or two spent in the Hunchback one. Perhaps that would be different if we saw the planned scene for Esmeralda in the dungeons.

I've heard people mention before that the Christian God really only has a presence in Snow White and Hunchback, which is why I remembered to connect those two films.

I wasn't aware that there were stereotypes about gay people being overweight. The Shang theories are really popular, especially amongst today's millennial fans (which pretty much compose most of Mulan's fanbase). I've heard them speculate that the reason Shang was cut from the live-action Mulan film was so that Disney could side-sweep the topic of bisexuality. Hence the new character who probably won't be a love interest, or if he will, then he'll only fall for Mulan after he learns her identity.

Thumbelina is a decent film. The film is full of Disney voice actors, mainly from the Musker and Clements films. The animation reminds me of the classic Walt era, which is what Don Bluth wanted, but the CGI integration is really bad especially in some camera shots. I quite love the songs of the film, or all the ones that Jodi Benson is involved in. The prince is also a great character imo but the swallow is really annoying and his song is even worse (although I've grown to like it after hating it for so long lol). I'd give Thumbelina a try especially since I think the whole film is available on YouTube for free. I didn't grow up with Thumbelina as a child either, unlike Anastasia and The Swan Princess. I only watched it for the first time in the past few years.

I love Odette's character and design, even though I think the real Odette should be brunette, and her voice actresses did an amazing job with her. While I like the intro part of how Odette questions Derek if he really loves her beyond her beauty, there is no pay-off to this scene, since right after, she's in love with him again and he doesn't question loving her beyond her beauty either, until the climax of the film where it just feels tacked on. I honestly never even noticed that Odette never grieved for her father, until other people pointed it out. For me, the character's purpose was fulfilled after he died and I suppose I was always more interested in the romantic relationships as a child over the parent-child ones. Especially in a fairy tale film since the father figures are usually either meant to be dead and revered or they are alive and serve as an obstacle to the young princess' dreams and romantic aspirations.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:04 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I love the If I Never Knew You reprise although I'm not sure which one I prefer: the shortened reprise we hear in the extended 10th anniversary film or the concept version that was originally planned and features more verses sung.

I meant the concept version that was initially planned. For me personally, I thought the lovebirds singing the last lines of the song to be more effective and haunting.

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Colors of the Wind could function as the showstopping number, although it reminds me more of Circle of Life, considering both are quite epic in their tone and both were used as initial trailers for their respective films. I wish we could have another song like that which is epic enough to be the trailer for a new Disney movie, but those days seem behind us. I'm sure Menken could do it though since he penned one of the two songs that served as a trailer.

Me too. But I remember seeing only the Colors of the Wind trailer on my The Lion King VHS and not The Circle of Life trailer. But if we're actually going to analyze those two trailers, at least the Wind-trailer was more of an actual trailer, which they showed some random clips that set up the premise in advance, whereas the Circle-trailer was more straightforward and other clips besides it. Remember that Disney also did the same for Dinosaur, showing a bit of the opening as a trailer.

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I remember reading an article that after Disney had set up Broadway shows for Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King, Pocahontas was next. This was in the late 90s, so somewhere in those years, plans for a Pocahontas show must have been scrapped. Maybe they turned their attention to Hunchback since that was such a huge hit in Germany and they considered adapting it to an English version. Or maybe because Disney got started on Aida, they felt they didn't need another star-crossed lovers musical at the same time. I wish we could have seen Pocahontas on stage though since it's unlikely Disney will adapt it now. They could have chosen that over Aida and focused on making Aida an animated feature instead, before making a stage adaptation.

Really? That's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

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Were you more of a Beauty and the Beast fan? There seems to have always been a rivalry between that film and TLM (similar as to how Tangled and Frozen fandoms are usually warring with each other). In my experience, fans who loved The Little Mermaid usually weren't as keen on BATB and vice-versa.

I was never a Beauty and the Beast fan in my childhood! The film never clicked with me at all when the film was new! I remember my dad buying the VHS for me at Christmas, mostly due to me being a Disney fan, so he probably assumed that I loved it. However, my best childhood friend loved it and I remember seeing it with her and she always asked me if I could give the movie to her. I regret being greedy and not giving it to her :P.
My fondness for Beauty grew when I became older and certainly in my adult years. But I always assumed that Beauty fans were Mermaid fans and vise versa. I know many people loves them both, as a friend of mine, if it counts :P

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Stromboli's ethnic background isn't that well known and most people would just associate him with being Italian considering he's got so many stereotypical Italian qualities. I think only Honest John refers to him as a gypsy a few times in the film, otherwise it isn't mentioned. Otherwise, I can see why Frollo would work well with Stromboli and Scar. Ratcliffe I suppose isn't competent enough a leader to be on the same level

Speaking of which, I've always found Pinocchio's setting to be confusing, though it's been confirmed that it takes place in Italy, but being modeled by a German-esque setting. A headscratcher nonetheless. And yeah, Ratcliffe isn't competent enough :P

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I wasn't aware that there were stereotypes about gay people being overweight.

At least some are, not all of them.

Quote:
The Shang theories are really popular, especially amongst today's millennial fans (which pretty much compose most of Mulan's fanbase). I've heard them speculate that the reason Shang was cut from the live-action Mulan film was so that Disney could side-sweep the topic of bisexuality. Hence the new character who probably won't be a love interest, or if he will, then he'll only fall for Mulan after he learns her identity.

True. I don't recall hearing those theories back on the movies release. But I've never saw it that way, since there's quite little that even indicates that Shang is even attracted to Mulan as a boy.

Quote:
thumbelina is a decent film. The film is full of Disney voice actors, mainly from the Musker and Clements films. The animation reminds me of the classic Walt era, which is what Don Bluth wanted, but the CGI integration is really bad especially in some camera shots. I quite love the songs of the film, or all the ones that Jodi Benson is involved in. The prince is also a great character imo but the swallow is really annoying and his song is even worse (although I've grown to like it after hating it for so long lol). I'd give Thumbelina a try especially since I think the whole film is available on YouTube for free. I didn't grow up with Thumbelina as a child either, unlike
Anastasia and The Swan Princess. I only watched it for the first time in the past few years.

I grew up with [i]The Swan Princess[/i] and was on the verge on adolescence when Anastasia was released. I always wanted to see Thumberlina, but I've heard so many negative things about it as well.

Quote:
I love Odette's character and design, even though I think the real Odette should be brunette, and her voice actresses did an amazing job with her. While I like the intro part of how Odette questions Derek if he really loves her beyond her beauty, there is no pay-off to this scene, since right after, she's in love with him again and he doesn't question loving her beyond her beauty either, until the climax of the film where it just feels tacked on. I honestly never even noticed that Odette never grieved for her father, until other people pointed it out. For me, the character's purpose was fulfilled after he died and I suppose I was always more interested in the romantic relationships as a child over the parent-child ones. Especially in a fairy tale film since the father figures are usually either meant to be dead and revered or they are alive and serve as an obstacle to the young princess' dreams and romantic aspirations.

Oh, I have a friend of mine who's really annoyed by the non-grief aspect of Odette and I can see why :D. I like Odette, she's decent enough and her voice is lovely, but her arc is hampered by bad writing, because of aforementioned reasons. Unfortunately she just becomes a damsel in distress at the very end. And I've noticed that Derek has many haters because of his shallow "what else"-comment.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:15 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I meant the concept version that was initially planned. For me personally, I thought the lovebirds singing the last lines of the song to be more effective and haunting.

Me too. But I remember seeing only the Colors of the Wind trailer on my The Lion King VHS and not The Circle of Life trailer. But if we're actually going to analyze those two trailers, at least the Wind-trailer was more of an actual trailer, which they showed some random clips that set up the premise in advance, whereas the Circle-trailer was more straightforward and other clips besides it. Remember that Disney also did the same for Dinosaur, showing a bit of the opening as a trailer.

I was never a Beauty and the Beast fan in my childhood! The film never clicked with me at all when the film was new! I remember my dad buying the VHS for me at Christmas, mostly due to me being a Disney fan, so he probably assumed that I loved it. However, my best childhood friend loved it and I remember seeing it with her and she always asked me if I could give the movie to her. I regret being greedy and not giving it to her :P.
My fondness for Beauty grew when I became older and certainly in my adult years. But I always assumed that Beauty fans were Mermaid fans and vise versa. I know many people loves them both, as a friend of mine, if it counts :P

Speaking of which, I've always found Pinocchio's setting to be confusing, though it's been confirmed that it takes place in Italy, but being modeled by a German-esque setting. A headscratcher nonetheless. And yeah, Ratcliffe isn't competent enough :P

True. I don't recall hearing those theories back on the movies release. But I've never saw it that way, since there's quite little that even indicates that Shang is even attracted to Mulan as a boy.

I grew up with [i]The Swan Princess[/i] and was on the verge on adolescence when Anastasia was released. I always wanted to see Thumberlina, but I've heard so many negative things about it as well.

Oh, I have a friend of mine who's really annoyed by the non-grief aspect of Odette and I can see why :D. I like Odette, she's decent enough and her voice is lovely, but her arc is hampered by bad writing, because of aforementioned reasons. Unfortunately she just becomes a damsel in distress at the very end. And I've noticed that Derek has many haters because of his shallow "what else"-comment.

There's actually a fanedit video that takes the reprise we get in the movie but adds the verses cut from the concept version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67V0IQJgEzM

I honestly don't remember the Dinosaur trailer. Much like the movie, it clearly didn't leave an impression on me.

There are plenty of people who do love BATB and TLM, but in the fandoms there has often been a divide between the two films. Typically Belle fans look down on Ariel whereas Ariel fans consider Belle to be condescending and snobby and think she is overrated. I used to go on a forum for TLM and I remember that Belle and her film were not particularly well-liked. However, casual Disney fans typically love both. Since you mentioned that you weren't a big fan of TLM, I assumed that maybe you were a major BATB fan. I think it's funny that even though BATB wasn't your favorite, you still wouldn't give the VHS tape to your friend who loved it. I remember I had a friend who was not a Disney fan at all but he had a Sleeping Beauty VHS tape and a Snow White sound book (the type that had buttons which you press to make special sounds). I always wanted to ask him to give them to me and maybe he even would, but I felt awkward asking lol. Ironically enough he was not a Star Wars fan either and he did give me some Star Wars stuff (I can't remember if I asked for them) so I probably could have asked for his Disney stuff.

Part of the reason for Pinocchio's varied setting is because they used a lot of the German Snow White influences for the setting, like the village. The book I think is set in southern Italy, but the Disney version is set in northern Italy, specifically a village in the Alps. Because of the close proximity to other European countries, that section of Italy has influences from many different cultures, especially Germany. I've heard that in the Alpine region, German is frequently spoken and lederhosen worn, etc. So Pincochio's setting ends up working after all with its German and Italian influences.

The Shang theories are more recent, sprouting in the age of Tumblr, Reddit, and YouTube. I don't remember hearing anything about it during the late 90s, early 2000s. It's arguable whether there's evidence or not in the movie for his sexuality but many fans have claimed him as a bisexual icon.

Thumbelina's worth at least a watch, since you'll likely get a few laughs at least (cringeworthy laughs perhaps). As for Odette, her character had potential but clearly it got sidetracked. I'm glad they at least tried to create a character arc for her even if it didn't pan out. Derek's character is questionable but I found his haircut to be the most offensive thing about him.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:48 pm 
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It always felt to me that people who heavily disliked Beauty and the Beast were either The Little Mermaid fans, who thought that BatB got a lot of credits which should have been TLM's since it came before, or The Lion King fans, who didn't like that BatB was the critical darling while TLK not as much as BatB. I might be wrong though.

Personally I like BatB more, but TLM is still a favorite of mine.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:29 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
There's actually a fanedit video that takes the reprise we get in the movie but adds the verses cut from the concept version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67V0IQJgEzM.

OK. I prefer the rough edit, though.

Quote:
I honestly don't remember the Dinosaur trailer. Much like the movie, it clearly didn't leave an impression on me.

At least the teaser had the most acclaimed sequence of the movie :P

Quote:
There are plenty of people who do love BATB and TLM, but in the fandoms there has often been a divide between the two films. Typically Belle fans look down on Ariel whereas Ariel fans consider Belle to be condescending and snobby and think she is overrated. I used to go on a forum for TLM and I remember that Belle and her film were not particularly well-liked. However, casual Disney fans typically love both. Since you mentioned that you weren't a big fan of TLM, I assumed that maybe you were a major BATB fan.

Oh, I know about the feud between Ariel and Belle fans. But personally I've never considered Belle to be any of those things that her haters said. I've even discussed that subject myself. I do like Belle a lot and there was a time where I considered Beauty to be superior to Mermaid, due to the aforementioned depth. But lately I've realized that Mermaid has it's perks. The aforementioned friend of mine loves Frozen and Tangled as as much as Mermaid and Beauty.

Quote:
I think it's funny that even though BATB wasn't your favorite, you still wouldn't give the VHS tape to your friend who loved it. I remember I had a friend who was not a Disney fan at all but he had a Sleeping Beauty VHS tape and a Snow White sound book (the type that had buttons which you press to make special sounds). I always wanted to ask him to give them to me and maybe he even would, but I felt awkward asking lol. Ironically enough he was not a Star Wars fan either and he did give me some Star Wars stuff (I can't remember if I asked for them) so I probably could have asked for his Disney stuff.

I was a greedy child, so forgive me :P

Quote:
Part of the reason for Pinocchio's varied setting is because they used a lot of the German Snow White influences for the setting, like the village. The book I think is set in southern Italy, but the Disney version is set in northern Italy, specifically a village in the Alps. Because of the close proximity to other European countries, that section of Italy has influences from many different cultures, especially Germany. I've heard that in the Alpine region, German is frequently spoken and lederhosen worn, etc. So Pincochio's setting ends up working after all with its German and Italian influences.

OK. Fair enough.

Quote:
The Shang theories are more recent, sprouting in the age of Tumblr, Reddit, and YouTube. I don't remember hearing anything about it during the late 90s, early 2000s. It's arguable whether there's evidence or not in the movie for his sexuality but many fans have claimed him as a bisexual icon.

Even Nostalgia Chick/Lindsay Ellis used to point it out on her videos priorly.

Quote:
Derek's character is questionable but I found his haircut to be the most offensive thing about him.

Hahahaha! You're not the first one who actually questions his haircut. I used to somewhat like Derek priorly, because of his vulnerability and determination, but now I find him bland. As for the romance side, I like the fact that it questions the fairy tale trope of beauty, but it still doesn't reasonate enough due to it's cluttered writing.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:58 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
At least the teaser had the most acclaimed sequence of the movie :P

Oh, I know about the feud between Ariel and Belle fans. But personally I've never considered Belle to be any of those things that her haters said. I've even discussed that subject myself. I do like Belle a lot and there was a time where I considered Beauty to be superior to Mermaid, due to the aforementioned depth. But lately I've realized that Mermaid has it's perks. The aforementioned friend of mine loves Frozen and Tangled as as much as Mermaid and Beauty.

I was a greedy child, so forgive me :P

Even Nostalgia Chick/Lindsay Ellis used to point it out on her videos priorly.

Hahahaha! You're not the first one who actually questions his haircut. I used to somewhat like Derek priorly, because of his vulnerability and determination, but now I find him bland. As for the romance side, I like the fact that it questions the fairy tale trope of beauty, but it still doesn't reasonate enough due to it's cluttered writing.


At least that saves me the trouble of having to watch Dinosaur again. I can just watch the trailer lol and be done with it.

I'm more of an Ariel fan than a Belle fan although I don't really believe the criticism that Belle gets from her haters. Although TLM is my personal favorite film, I don't deny that BATB has more depth to it. At the same time, I don't think TLM is really that much lacking in depth. Most certainly can't say the same about Tangled.

Lol, I'm sure there's nothing to forgive.

I've never really watched her videos so I wasn't aware of that.

Out of the classic fairy tale princes (which don't include the Beast and Aladdin), Derek is certainly the most fleshed out, even more than Eric. But there's just a lack of consistency in the overall character arcs for him and Odette. And frankly, I always found Rothbart to be forgettable, especially design-wise. I wish Disney could have made Swan Lake way back in the day.

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