I'm going to try to be spoiler-free here; anything that is a spoiler will of course be coloured white.
Asylum is a mixed bag for me: the concept is excellent, but could have been handled better; the visuals are more cinematic in scale and brilliance than ever before and the twists are creative and genuinely surprising, but I'm even getting sick of Rory now (he seriously thought that Dalek wanted eggs?)
Sadly, even though I have enjoyed many episodes from both, I think Russell T Davies and Steven Moffat each have flawed writing styles, at least when it comes to Doctor Who (Davies' writing on Torchwood: Children of Earth is fantastic, as is Moffat's writing in Sherlock). Davies' humour could be crudely infantile, his plot resolutions were Deus Ex Machinas and his finale plots generally uncreative, yet he handled characters well, was good at emotional scenes and made the world of Doctor Who wholly immersive and one that felt real. Moffat is a better writer and possibly better-suited, and is great at making normal, commonplace things like statues and shadows terrifying, builds suspense well and his finales and story arcs are far more inspired than Davies, not to mention better resolved too. However, Moffat seems to rely on twists far too much, sometimes more than characterisation; as a result, episodes like The Impossible Astronaut and Asylum of the Daleks are mesmerising when viewing for the first time because of all the shocks, yet are far less entertaining when it comes to repeat viewings. Moreover, Moffat's comic dialogue is frequently cringe-worthy, and the nicknames he gets the characters to say (Raggedy man, sweetie, chinboy, souffle girl, etcetera) are incredibly annoying (for me at least).
The ending with the Daleks having their memory erased was surprising, but will very soon be reversed - after all, won't the Daleks wonder what caused them to fail in so many of their plans and who had killed so many of them? What with the hints at the Doctor's identity, his past and the kind of a perosn he really is being revealed for the 50th Anniversary and now the Daleks forgetting their past experience with him, what is this all building up to? Could it lead to some kind of reset of the universe, or with the Doctor making a proper fresh start?
Doctor Who Discussion
I think you're spot on with your analysis of the two writing styles. I also think Davies was better - with Davies while he wrote "big", especially for his climaxes, it was always the little stuff that worked.
I still think the best character in New Who was Jackie. I accept part of this was down to the actress, but it was also the writing. Look at the final scene of World War Three when Rose goes off in the TARDIS, telling he mum its a time machine and she can be back in 10 seconds. As soon as Rose leaves, Jackie knows she has lost her. She counts to 10 to herself and then leaves, knowing Rose will be back (if she comes back) when Rose wants to come back. Meanwhile Mickey - ever faithful Mickey - sits on a bin and patiently waits, reading a magazine.
A short scene, with little dialogue, but it works so well. I tells us everything we need to know about the two characters. Both characters solicit out sympathy, Jackie because we know she is right, and Mickey because we know he is wrong, yet still loyal to Rose.
Jackie is presented as being somewhat thick and uneducated - but she's not. Jackie has common sense. Perhaps more common sense than any other regular New Who character. She may not be academically educated, but she has emotional smarts - especially when it comes to her daughter.
I don't think Moffat could ever write anyone like Jackie.
As you point out, Moffat's characters tend to be more "manufactured" - they have what I like to call hyper-realistic speech patterns, in that they always say the wittiest things at the precise moment for maximum impact. It seems choreographed.
There's not necessarily anything wrong with that - Buffy The Vampire Slayer was full of such characters and dialogue and I love it to bits (well seasons 1-5 to bits, but that's another story).
But Moffat's history as a sit-com writer bleeds into his Doctor Who. Russell's humour comes from character though. It's the ridiculous things people say without realising it where most of his humour comes from.
The much maligned Love and Monsters (and yes, at first I too maligned it) is actually a wonderful script. It's full of dialogue gems. I love the detail of Elton telling us he had to make a "rudimentary pulley system" to get his shoes when his bedroom floor was covered in broken glass. Its three words that shouldn't really go together in anybodies spoken dialogue, yet they do, and they sound so natural and as a result sound amusing.
Every character in Love and Monsters has their own distinctive dialogue and within moments of us being introduced to them, those patterns as well as what they say about themselves to each other let us understand the characters in a short time.
I actually don't mind the farting Slitheen. I think the Slitheen two-parter has a lot of good ideas in it, and I like the giggling, childish nature of the Slitheen. I actually thought the twist would be the Slitheen would be children. I was disappointed this wasn't the case. It would have been a bold move and an interesting dilemma for the Doctor. Would he punish children and hold them responsible for their actions?
In a way, I think after writing it Davies had similar thoughts, because we got Boom Town. Not the same dilemma, but one similar. It may have been a budget saving episode, but either intentionally or unintentionally it picked up on a few thoughts I was having when I viewed Aliens of London/World War III. (That said, the ending of Boom Town was a total cop-out non-ending - nobody had to commit to making a decision so the whole moral question was dodged. As you point out - correctly - Davies has problems with endings).
I don't want to be too hard of Moffat. He has written what I consider to be the best ever episode of New Who in A Christmas Carol - which proves he can do "emotional". Although while as emotional as Davies' best emotional stories, I still feel there's something not quite right about the characters, if I was to be picky (very picky) I still get a slight feeling that the story was written first, and the characters placed inside it. With Davies you get the opposite feeling.
But what a story. Plotted to a tee and the "Christmas Yet to Be" twist is gobsmacking. Yes, Moffat can plot and Moffat can do endings - the ending to Day of the Moon is bloody brilliant.
I still think the best character in New Who was Jackie. I accept part of this was down to the actress, but it was also the writing. Look at the final scene of World War Three when Rose goes off in the TARDIS, telling he mum its a time machine and she can be back in 10 seconds. As soon as Rose leaves, Jackie knows she has lost her. She counts to 10 to herself and then leaves, knowing Rose will be back (if she comes back) when Rose wants to come back. Meanwhile Mickey - ever faithful Mickey - sits on a bin and patiently waits, reading a magazine.
A short scene, with little dialogue, but it works so well. I tells us everything we need to know about the two characters. Both characters solicit out sympathy, Jackie because we know she is right, and Mickey because we know he is wrong, yet still loyal to Rose.
Jackie is presented as being somewhat thick and uneducated - but she's not. Jackie has common sense. Perhaps more common sense than any other regular New Who character. She may not be academically educated, but she has emotional smarts - especially when it comes to her daughter.
I don't think Moffat could ever write anyone like Jackie.
As you point out, Moffat's characters tend to be more "manufactured" - they have what I like to call hyper-realistic speech patterns, in that they always say the wittiest things at the precise moment for maximum impact. It seems choreographed.
There's not necessarily anything wrong with that - Buffy The Vampire Slayer was full of such characters and dialogue and I love it to bits (well seasons 1-5 to bits, but that's another story).
But Moffat's history as a sit-com writer bleeds into his Doctor Who. Russell's humour comes from character though. It's the ridiculous things people say without realising it where most of his humour comes from.
The much maligned Love and Monsters (and yes, at first I too maligned it) is actually a wonderful script. It's full of dialogue gems. I love the detail of Elton telling us he had to make a "rudimentary pulley system" to get his shoes when his bedroom floor was covered in broken glass. Its three words that shouldn't really go together in anybodies spoken dialogue, yet they do, and they sound so natural and as a result sound amusing.
Every character in Love and Monsters has their own distinctive dialogue and within moments of us being introduced to them, those patterns as well as what they say about themselves to each other let us understand the characters in a short time.
I actually don't mind the farting Slitheen. I think the Slitheen two-parter has a lot of good ideas in it, and I like the giggling, childish nature of the Slitheen. I actually thought the twist would be the Slitheen would be children. I was disappointed this wasn't the case. It would have been a bold move and an interesting dilemma for the Doctor. Would he punish children and hold them responsible for their actions?
In a way, I think after writing it Davies had similar thoughts, because we got Boom Town. Not the same dilemma, but one similar. It may have been a budget saving episode, but either intentionally or unintentionally it picked up on a few thoughts I was having when I viewed Aliens of London/World War III. (That said, the ending of Boom Town was a total cop-out non-ending - nobody had to commit to making a decision so the whole moral question was dodged. As you point out - correctly - Davies has problems with endings).
I don't want to be too hard of Moffat. He has written what I consider to be the best ever episode of New Who in A Christmas Carol - which proves he can do "emotional". Although while as emotional as Davies' best emotional stories, I still feel there's something not quite right about the characters, if I was to be picky (very picky) I still get a slight feeling that the story was written first, and the characters placed inside it. With Davies you get the opposite feeling.
But what a story. Plotted to a tee and the "Christmas Yet to Be" twist is gobsmacking. Yes, Moffat can plot and Moffat can do endings - the ending to Day of the Moon is bloody brilliant.
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Dr Frankenollie
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For me, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was another episode which had far too much crammed in; I know Moffat deliberately avoided multi-episode stories this season, but with all the ambitious concepts and multiple characters, it looks like there should have been. Like with Asylum of the Daleks, I never hated it, yet I found myself wanting to do something else than watch it. The only attempt at characterisation is the tiresome sitcom-style dialogue 2099Net referred to, and generally I don't find that humour funny (I didn't find the bickering robots funny either). Russell T Davies' dialogue wasn't as snarky or unrealistically witty 24/7, and comparing the two styles makes Moffat look even more lacklustre (I know Chris Chibnall wrote Dinosaurs; nevertheless, Moffat's style seems to have been adopted by most other writers under his tenure as head writer). Overall, the episode felt contrived; why did the Doctor need to bring all those random people along to investigate the Silurian ship? Nonetheless...I did like Brian Williams' minor yet memorable character arc and the scene with him looking down on Earth with a cup of tea, and the production values were very impressive.
I enjoyed Dinosaurs on a Spaceship more than Asylum of the Daleks. And yes, I enjoyed the Mitchell and Webb robots. But that doesn't mean I would want to see them again. I just enjoyed them for what they were.
I think its good to have a lighter, comedy episode every so often. If there's one thing Doctor Who is, its not set in stone. Doctor Who can be anything.
That said, as much as I enjoyed it, it won't really stand out. For better or worse Asylum will stand out in the future because important stuff happens. Nothing really happens in DoaS. It has happenings, but they don't really mean anything.
Normally, I wouldn't say that was a complaint (my favourite classic series story is Castrovalva and arguably nothing much happens in that - for certain nothing much happens in the first three episodes of the four), but it probably is a problem when the series is being promoted as a movie each week and also when its cut-down to 5 episodes. (I know its a split-season, but really its two seasons, one of which is 5 episodes).
The Doctor's final treatment of Soloman was harsh and dark. It could be seen as darker than Aslyum. I feel most people will overlook this given the lightness of the rest of the episode, but to me its this which makes the darkness darker. It's notable the Doctor's final interactions with Soloman were just him and Soloman - is this how the Doctor acts when nobody is around to stop him?
It's been a common thread in new Who - the Doctor needs his companions to provide him with a moral centre. The first Doctor was somewhat remote and heartless before Ian and Barbara helped mellow him. Don't forget, he was perfectly willing to stove a caveman's head in! Tennant's Doctor went off the rails without Donna... it looks like the same is happening to Smith's Doctor.
I'm wondering if this will be a mini-arc for the season - after all a point is made the Doctor is only visiting the Ponds every few months or so and travelling alone in between. Will the exit of the ponds and the introduction of the new companion directly address the need for the Doctor to be grounded by a companion.
I think its good to have a lighter, comedy episode every so often. If there's one thing Doctor Who is, its not set in stone. Doctor Who can be anything.
That said, as much as I enjoyed it, it won't really stand out. For better or worse Asylum will stand out in the future because important stuff happens. Nothing really happens in DoaS. It has happenings, but they don't really mean anything.
Normally, I wouldn't say that was a complaint (my favourite classic series story is Castrovalva and arguably nothing much happens in that - for certain nothing much happens in the first three episodes of the four), but it probably is a problem when the series is being promoted as a movie each week and also when its cut-down to 5 episodes. (I know its a split-season, but really its two seasons, one of which is 5 episodes).
The Doctor's final treatment of Soloman was harsh and dark. It could be seen as darker than Aslyum. I feel most people will overlook this given the lightness of the rest of the episode, but to me its this which makes the darkness darker. It's notable the Doctor's final interactions with Soloman were just him and Soloman - is this how the Doctor acts when nobody is around to stop him?
It's been a common thread in new Who - the Doctor needs his companions to provide him with a moral centre. The first Doctor was somewhat remote and heartless before Ian and Barbara helped mellow him. Don't forget, he was perfectly willing to stove a caveman's head in! Tennant's Doctor went off the rails without Donna... it looks like the same is happening to Smith's Doctor.
I'm wondering if this will be a mini-arc for the season - after all a point is made the Doctor is only visiting the Ponds every few months or so and travelling alone in between. Will the exit of the ponds and the introduction of the new companion directly address the need for the Doctor to be grounded by a companion.
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Dr Frankenollie
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I was surprised by Solomon's death too. It seemed too cruel and almost OOC for the Doctor. You're probably right about his increasing ruthlessness becoming an arc for Series 7, showing how he needs a companion, but that's been done many times before; by now the Doctor should have learned his lesson.2099net wrote:The Doctor's final treatment of Soloman was harsh and dark. It could be seen as darker than Aslyum. I feel most people will overlook this given the lightness of the rest of the episode, but to me its this which makes the darkness darker. It's notable the Doctor's final interactions with Soloman were just him and Soloman - is this how the Doctor acts when nobody is around to stop him?
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Dr Frankenollie
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What a cracking episode A Town Called Mercy was! Finally, the great episode I've been waiting over a year for. After the awful Asylum of the Daleks and the overstuffed, gimmicky Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, A Town Called Mercy is a breath of fresh air; moreover, it's one of my favourite episodes from NuWho overall. Instead of one-dimensional villains, the episode features characters with depth in a compelling and challenging ethical scenario, and considering the great production values of Series 7, it's no surprise that it looks wonderful. It captures the essence of a western excellently; not just via visuals or plot, but in the tension and atmosphere. If I had to be picky, the ending was slightly predictable, but a predictable ending is much better than what the previous two stories offered. It reminded me of why I love Doctor Who and I will look forward to more Toby Whithouse stories more than I look forward to any other regular writer for the show.
Interesting Frankenollie.
Generally I found this episode to be... average. Probably, to be honest, below average - but I'll have to wait for a rewatch to decide. Around the internet I see it tends to be a story which has people who passionately loving it, or people who are just indifferent to it. Which given the "passion" of fandom is quite an achievement - some "fans" hate something before they even see it!
Personally, I felt this episode was missing something, but I just can't nail what it was missing. I have no objections to the slower, talk based nature of the story (but in some respects the story seemed more constrained by the 45 minute runtime than one of the all-out action episodes because of it. If you're going to do a character based and/or ethical argument based story, you need time to establish and explore both. Perhaps this needed to be a two-parter?)
I think perhaps the Gunslinger needed to be presented as more of a threat. There just didn't appear to be must danger in the episode. Again this may be down to having to get too much into the allocated timeslot.
Generally I found this episode to be... average. Probably, to be honest, below average - but I'll have to wait for a rewatch to decide. Around the internet I see it tends to be a story which has people who passionately loving it, or people who are just indifferent to it. Which given the "passion" of fandom is quite an achievement - some "fans" hate something before they even see it!
Personally, I felt this episode was missing something, but I just can't nail what it was missing. I have no objections to the slower, talk based nature of the story (but in some respects the story seemed more constrained by the 45 minute runtime than one of the all-out action episodes because of it. If you're going to do a character based and/or ethical argument based story, you need time to establish and explore both. Perhaps this needed to be a two-parter?)
I think perhaps the Gunslinger needed to be presented as more of a threat. There just didn't appear to be must danger in the episode. Again this may be down to having to get too much into the allocated timeslot.
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Dr Frankenollie
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I think it established and explored the ideas quite efficiently; moreover, there was even time for the Doctor to believably go through a bit of a character arc, considering how Kahler-Jex was an analogy for him. Also, even though Jex's fate was predictable, I don't think it was illogical for him, consdering how he displayed some guilt earlier.
Even though the Gunslinger wasn't scary and may not have been threatening individually, the sequence building up to the meeting at noon was very suspenseful and was the maybe first time since The God Complex (another Toby Whithouse) I was really on the edge of my seat.
"Asylum of the Daleks" was anything but a classic - like "Dinosaurs", it seemed as though the plot was mapped out first and the characters placed in later. Consequentially, although this was greater in "Dinosaurs", this made the characters act like puppets to bring the plot to a predetermined, rather than the superior way of storytelling where characters are mapped out first and create the plot through logical, more natural actions. Like many Moffat episodes, it relied on twists rather than good characterisation to entertain - meaning it only has a split-second entertaiment value and poor rewatch value - and it was full of the dreadful dialogue that 2099Net brilliantly described as hyper-realistic and sitcom-style. Also, Oswin was a soulless bitch (we already have Amy to fulfil that role Moffat!) Worst of all, it made barely any use of the Special Weapons Dalek and the Daleks overall did very little themselves, with much of the attempted scares supplied by the mind-controlled human zombies.
Even though the Gunslinger wasn't scary and may not have been threatening individually, the sequence building up to the meeting at noon was very suspenseful and was the maybe first time since The God Complex (another Toby Whithouse) I was really on the edge of my seat.
"Asylum of the Daleks" was anything but a classic - like "Dinosaurs", it seemed as though the plot was mapped out first and the characters placed in later. Consequentially, although this was greater in "Dinosaurs", this made the characters act like puppets to bring the plot to a predetermined, rather than the superior way of storytelling where characters are mapped out first and create the plot through logical, more natural actions. Like many Moffat episodes, it relied on twists rather than good characterisation to entertain - meaning it only has a split-second entertaiment value and poor rewatch value - and it was full of the dreadful dialogue that 2099Net brilliantly described as hyper-realistic and sitcom-style. Also, Oswin was a soulless bitch (we already have Amy to fulfil that role Moffat!) Worst of all, it made barely any use of the Special Weapons Dalek and the Daleks overall did very little themselves, with much of the attempted scares supplied by the mind-controlled human zombies.
Hey Frankenollie, don't take my opinions seriously - after all, not only is Castrovalva my favourite story, but I think The Happiness Patrol is a close second, and I most certainly do want to see the Kandyman again (given he was melted down to a metal skeleton in HP, I guess he could come back "rebuilt" without offending Bassets now).
I'm also of the opinion that Doctor Who can be anything and everything.
I will say this though, and I'll said it before, but the 45 minute run time does harm the stories. Somehow a lot of stories promise much but fail to deliver. And I blame it on the run time. After all, not only do they have to tell a story every week, but set up new worlds and characters.
Sometimes, as in Asylum of the Daleks you feel things are a little rushed. Imagine Asylum as a two parter. I'm sure it could be better. The script for all its faults was burting with ideas - and stuff was hinted at which becomes apparent on later viewings...
for example, do you really think the Daleks were worried about the exiled Daleks escaping from the planet? No, I think that was a cover story. The Daleks were afraid of the Oswin-Dalek. We saw how powerful she was - its stated she was responsible for the general run-down nature of the Aslyum and we find out later she could "hack" into the Dalek's neuro-web (or whatever). The Daleks most likely knew what she was - I'm sure their nanogenes report back - and the fact the Daleks had nanogenes on the Asylum planet shows they must have been expecting some organic life to land on the planet at some time or other...
Imagine if this was explored further - with the new Class/Caste system of Daleks, what if we saw the "iPod" Daleks hiding this information from the bronze solider Daleks? What if the Dalek superiors were asking for help from the Doctor because they feared another Dalek civil war? What if the Doctor and company landed half a planet away from Oswin-Dalek and/or the shields and encountered some "live" Daleks on their journey? What if Oswin was teased for one episode, building up even more anticipation for her full appearance and lending a bigger discord when her fate was revealed?
The idea of Asylum was great, but it couldn't possibly be told in 45 minutes. (Even if my suppositions on the true nature of the Daleks call for help are wrong, the story should still be praised for inspiring my imagination).
And much as you hate Moffet's dialogue patterns, I feel this is partly down to the run time. Not entirely, of course Moffet's own style comes into it. But it so much more easier to push the story along with "smart", precise and targeted dialogue than the meandering, sometimes vague dialogue we all speak. Moffet obviously places story above character - let's face it, Davies rarely did - and there's nothing wrong with Moffet's approach. It's given us some incredibly tightly plotted stories with unseen but logical twists.
Ideally, we'd have both character and story on an equal billing - and Moffet can do this, see Blink for example. But if the time available means plotting has to take priority over character I don't necessarily think that's invalid.
Even with Moffet we can get guest writers writing character stories - see The Girl Who Waited or Amy's Choice for example in addition to Withouse's scripts.
Besides, as with all things Who, Moffet will leave one day, and the show will get a whole new style once more. (Just prey it's not Chibnell!
)
I'm also of the opinion that Doctor Who can be anything and everything.
I will say this though, and I'll said it before, but the 45 minute run time does harm the stories. Somehow a lot of stories promise much but fail to deliver. And I blame it on the run time. After all, not only do they have to tell a story every week, but set up new worlds and characters.
Sometimes, as in Asylum of the Daleks you feel things are a little rushed. Imagine Asylum as a two parter. I'm sure it could be better. The script for all its faults was burting with ideas - and stuff was hinted at which becomes apparent on later viewings...
for example, do you really think the Daleks were worried about the exiled Daleks escaping from the planet? No, I think that was a cover story. The Daleks were afraid of the Oswin-Dalek. We saw how powerful she was - its stated she was responsible for the general run-down nature of the Aslyum and we find out later she could "hack" into the Dalek's neuro-web (or whatever). The Daleks most likely knew what she was - I'm sure their nanogenes report back - and the fact the Daleks had nanogenes on the Asylum planet shows they must have been expecting some organic life to land on the planet at some time or other...
Imagine if this was explored further - with the new Class/Caste system of Daleks, what if we saw the "iPod" Daleks hiding this information from the bronze solider Daleks? What if the Dalek superiors were asking for help from the Doctor because they feared another Dalek civil war? What if the Doctor and company landed half a planet away from Oswin-Dalek and/or the shields and encountered some "live" Daleks on their journey? What if Oswin was teased for one episode, building up even more anticipation for her full appearance and lending a bigger discord when her fate was revealed?
The idea of Asylum was great, but it couldn't possibly be told in 45 minutes. (Even if my suppositions on the true nature of the Daleks call for help are wrong, the story should still be praised for inspiring my imagination).
And much as you hate Moffet's dialogue patterns, I feel this is partly down to the run time. Not entirely, of course Moffet's own style comes into it. But it so much more easier to push the story along with "smart", precise and targeted dialogue than the meandering, sometimes vague dialogue we all speak. Moffet obviously places story above character - let's face it, Davies rarely did - and there's nothing wrong with Moffet's approach. It's given us some incredibly tightly plotted stories with unseen but logical twists.
Ideally, we'd have both character and story on an equal billing - and Moffet can do this, see Blink for example. But if the time available means plotting has to take priority over character I don't necessarily think that's invalid.
Even with Moffet we can get guest writers writing character stories - see The Girl Who Waited or Amy's Choice for example in addition to Withouse's scripts.
Besides, as with all things Who, Moffet will leave one day, and the show will get a whole new style once more. (Just prey it's not Chibnell!
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Dr Frankenollie
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There are some reports that The Snowmen will be the best episode of NuWho. I find it highly unlikely that it can top Midnight, but I'm still more excited about this Christmas special than I've been about any other (besides The End of Time and The Christmas Invasion). Apparently, the new title sequence is reminiscent of the classic series; does this mean we'll see Smith's face in the credits? I'm also intrigued by rumours that the Big Bad - and Ian McKellen's role besides voicing the Snowmen - is none other than the Great Intelligence, the Nestene Consciousness to the Yeti's Autons.
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In the hopes of encouraging discussion and debates about Doctor Who...
Top Ten NuWho Stories (I've seen about 15 classic series stories in full, but I still don't think it's fair or accurate to try and do a list for the entire series):
1. Midnight (4.10)
This is always going to be the greatest in my eyes, because it's the perfect deconstruction of the Doctor, the usual formula, the idea of monsters and the question "Doctor Who?" I've watched this episode about a dozen times, yet it's so thought-provoking and clever that I never grow tired of it. The invisible monster is an ingenious creation (although the humans are the true villains, and the perfect enemy for the Doctor), the performances from Tennant and Lesley Sharp are superb, and Davies' character-building is terrific - by the end of the episode, we understand and to some extent sympathise with nearly all the characters. It's incredibly deep too - the Hostess is unnamed because she's an Everyman figure, representing all of humanity by being both the worst and the best humans can be - suggesting murder to save her own skin, and later making the ultimate sacrifice.
2. Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead (4.8/4.9)
3. Blink (3.10)
4. Human Nature/The Family of Blood (3.8/3.9)
5. The Snowmen (7.6)
6. The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances (1.9/1.10)
7. The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang (5.12/5.13)
8. Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone (5.4/5.5)
9. A Town Called Mercy (7.3)
10. Amy's Choice (5.7)
Top Ten NuWho Stories (I've seen about 15 classic series stories in full, but I still don't think it's fair or accurate to try and do a list for the entire series):
1. Midnight (4.10)
This is always going to be the greatest in my eyes, because it's the perfect deconstruction of the Doctor, the usual formula, the idea of monsters and the question "Doctor Who?" I've watched this episode about a dozen times, yet it's so thought-provoking and clever that I never grow tired of it. The invisible monster is an ingenious creation (although the humans are the true villains, and the perfect enemy for the Doctor), the performances from Tennant and Lesley Sharp are superb, and Davies' character-building is terrific - by the end of the episode, we understand and to some extent sympathise with nearly all the characters. It's incredibly deep too - the Hostess is unnamed because she's an Everyman figure, representing all of humanity by being both the worst and the best humans can be - suggesting murder to save her own skin, and later making the ultimate sacrifice.
2. Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead (4.8/4.9)
3. Blink (3.10)
4. Human Nature/The Family of Blood (3.8/3.9)
5. The Snowmen (7.6)
6. The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances (1.9/1.10)
7. The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang (5.12/5.13)
8. Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone (5.4/5.5)
9. A Town Called Mercy (7.3)
10. Amy's Choice (5.7)
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Dr Frankenollie
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OKDr Frankenollie wrote:In the hopes of encouraging discussion and debates about Doctor Who...
1. A Christmas Carol
Undoubtedly to my mind the best Nu-Who episode. This has so much going for it - its based on what I consider one of the greatest stories of all time, but is sufficiently different and has enough original ideas to seem fresh and new (it has a flying shark for crying out loud. A flying shark in A Christmas Carol. And it has Moffat's trademarked manipulation of time throughout, which also means it has Moffat's precise plotting. The Ghost of Christmas Yet-To-Be is inspired.) I'm not a major fan of Moffat's take on Doctor Who, but I think this is sublime.
2. The Next Doctor
Another Xmas Special. On the whole I find the Xmas specials to be underwhelming. Logic says that can't do anything too demanding or too shocking for a Christmas Day showing. (But it still gave us The End of Time - go figure). The Next Doctor has its cake and eats it. It's sufficiently Christmassy with it's Victorian London, snow and cockney orphans to keep the casual viewers happy, but it actually is quite dark... there's a lot going on just below the surface (think about Miss Hartigan and how women in general in the Victoran age were expected to behave, and then think about her marital status and age, and perhaps think about why she seems to have so much disdain for men) and Jackson Lake's backstory is outright stated and far from traditional Christmas fare. The CyberKing though is a miss-step, but only as these are still clearly Cybus Cybermen, not only from their appearance but also from the narrative (they come from the Void). It doesn't make sense that Alt-Cybes would have this technology.
3. Vincent and the Doctor
So, Richard Curtis is writing a Doctor Who story. It's fair to say I was unimpressed by the news. I don't think Curtis is anywhere near as good as most people do. His films are okay - as is his TV - I've never understood the broad appeal of The Vicar of Dibley. So I just filed it away as a potential fun, comedy episode, perhaps between two bigger episodes. How wrong I was. This is a superb script and probably the most "adult" of all Doctor Who stories on screen. A genuinely serious look at mental illness which doesn't dodge the issue and neither does it overtly draw attention to it. And the entire final 5 or 10 minutes are the most moving seen in Doctor Who. Take that RTD!
4. Blink
I know most people would expect this to be higher, but I think my appreciation of this has been tainted by subsequent Angel appearances (none of which I have enjoyed as all I can see is inconsistances) and subsequent stories by Moffat where time is - more or less - a character of its own in the story. That shouldn't make this a lesser work, but... [shrugs]
5/6. The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky
This is perhaps the best multi-part story in Nu-Who. I know that unlike other multi-part stories, I didn't feel cheated or disappointed with the ending. I know some people critisise this for being too "old school" - but surely that was always it's aim? It's saying something when fans complain something is to "trad" when normally they can't wait for a "rad" to even be screened before complaining.
7. The Idiot's Lantern
Perhaps not the most logical script - the Wire's process leaving people faceless is illogical to the extreme. But I love this episode for it's atmosphere. It has a certain something which always brings me back. I find the scene in the TV shop with the faces silently screaming/mouthing for help to be really quite chilling, but perhaps that's just me. And I love the personna of The Wire too.
8. The Stolen Earth
Maybe this should be higher. It was certainly big news at the time. Who can forget that cliffhanger? Even I thought (for a while) RTD may have played the ultimate scam on the viewers and actually have a secret regeneration. Plus it had virtually everyone from RTD's time as showrunner back and on screen. But... it goes down because I found Journey's End to be such an anticlimax - don't even mention the "fan fiction" Russell wrote about Rose and Clone-Doctor at the end. A shame, as rubbish like that dulled the impact of Donna's fate, which was pretty emotional as it was. Imagine it without that fan fiction nonsense diluting it's impact. Enough about Journey's End though, The Stolen Earth was pretty good wasn't it?
9. The Sound of Drums
Again a two-parter which promised so much but the subsequent episode only ended up disappointing. I love Simm's Master. I know some absolutely hate him, but I think he's the best Master. It's not just down to Simm's performance though, but also Russell's writing. At last we have a truly manic and deranged Master - and a reason presented for his malady on screen too. I always thought the Master needed to be more unpredictable. It's also a good premise too - cleverly building upon what we know about Britain from Rose onwards. The Master as Prime Minister. That's a status quo I would have liked to remain in place for a few subsequent Master stories - again Russell has an idea totally new and original and full of potential and simply throws it away after using it. It's good in that it keeps Doctor Who's narrative always running forwards, but it can be somewhat frustrating when you see concepts untapped.
10. The Waters of Mars
Surprisingly scary - with CGI and more gore this could easily be a sci-fi movie thriller. It's in many ways a traditional "base under siege" story - a concept perfected in the Troughton era. So pretty "trad" in its own way. Like any slasher film, it's fun watching it and trying to predict who will live, who will die, and who will survive. Add to this a sense of the Doctor's ego-mania and it forms the strongest of Tennant's specials.
Most of my Blu-ray collection some of my UK discs aren't on their database
OK, I've been thinking some more about the Anniversary Special and I've changed a few of my assumptions - mainly some additions not subtractions. However bear with me...
Before I was convinced that the "Big Bad" would be Omega, and the "founder" of The Silence (religion). I'm still pretty convinced about that to be honest, but now I've got more "logic" to back me up:
1) The Silence have time ships that have similarities to Gallifreyan TARDIS's. I'm assuming that they have more than 1.
2) The faces of The Silence are ill formed - almost as if made from wax and melted. We've seen examples of other such messy creations when Omega has tried to will physical forms from his Anti-Matter universe before. Yes the Silence are better than Omega's previous efforts... but he's had practice! Could the Silence (creatures) be creations from Omega's Anti-Matter universe? The Silence attack with electricity (as did the Gel Guards... sort of... I think that was the intention anyway) and could their ability to make people forget them be something to do with their innate "anti" properties?
3) Given the Silence have supposed to have been "nudging" Human civilisation since the dawn of mankind, isn't it odd they've only shown up now (and Classic Who has several other aliens doing the same... the Fendahl, The Deamons etc) Could the Silence only have existed throughout history since the conclusion of the Time War? Again, Omega taking advantage of a non-existent Gallifrey?
4) Omega was in the 10th Anniversary special and kicked off the 20th Anniversary season. Thematically it makes sense for Omega to be in the next big televised anniversary. Fictionally let's look at some justifications....
a) Gallifrey is destroyed - well still Time-Locked I assume. It is for all intents and purposes "dead" and I think it's pretty clear RTD concluded his Time-War meta-thread with the conclusion to The End Of Time. And it doesn't appear that The Moff has shown any intention of doing anything with the Time Lords and/or Gallifrey. He seems happier to "create" and follow "new" Time Lord with River Song. An argument could be made that this is the ideal time for Omega to attempt to return to the positive universe.
b) Don't forget this "Doctor Who?" question. While the New Adventures made it more explicit and all but explained Cartmel's "Master Plan", there is still a line on screen setting it up. In Ressurection of the Daleks the Doctor implies he was involved in the creation of the Hand of Omega, and when picked-up on this backtracks to say he meant the Time Lords. But what if Moffat wants to run with some of that. Given that Omega stole the Doctor's Bio-data in Arc of Infinity, and any hidden data that The Doctor was or was connected to a contemporary of Omega and Rassilon - probably even "the" third "Other" temporal/stellar engineer may have been discovered by Omega since he returned to his Anti-Matter universe.
Could the Doctor's past have in it a way of stopping Omega, even if the Doctor himself doesn't at the moment consciously know it? (I can't really think of another reason why Omega would want to stop the question being answered).
c) Is Moffat even going to pick-up on some of the Masterplan at all? Who knows. But the question of answering who the Doctor is, even if only with another question seem to indicate that something about the history of Gallifrey will be involved, and I can see the established (off-screen) three some of Omega/Rassilon and an unnamed "Other" being involved. I'm not suggesting he will go into the detail of the Looms etc. But consider this...
The Three Doctors - Omega
The Five Doctors - Rassilon
The 50th Anniversary - Brings together Omega/Rassilon and "the Other"
By the way, in End of Time, do you think Rassilon was THE Rassilon or somebody sharing the same name? After all the Time Lords brought back The Master to help with the Time War (although a fat lot of good it did them) Wouldn't they be tempted to bring back Rassilon, who wasn't even technically dead? If so... I wonder if Timothy Dalton will be back for the 50th...
Before I was convinced that the "Big Bad" would be Omega, and the "founder" of The Silence (religion). I'm still pretty convinced about that to be honest, but now I've got more "logic" to back me up:
1) The Silence have time ships that have similarities to Gallifreyan TARDIS's. I'm assuming that they have more than 1.
2) The faces of The Silence are ill formed - almost as if made from wax and melted. We've seen examples of other such messy creations when Omega has tried to will physical forms from his Anti-Matter universe before. Yes the Silence are better than Omega's previous efforts... but he's had practice! Could the Silence (creatures) be creations from Omega's Anti-Matter universe? The Silence attack with electricity (as did the Gel Guards... sort of... I think that was the intention anyway) and could their ability to make people forget them be something to do with their innate "anti" properties?
3) Given the Silence have supposed to have been "nudging" Human civilisation since the dawn of mankind, isn't it odd they've only shown up now (and Classic Who has several other aliens doing the same... the Fendahl, The Deamons etc) Could the Silence only have existed throughout history since the conclusion of the Time War? Again, Omega taking advantage of a non-existent Gallifrey?
4) Omega was in the 10th Anniversary special and kicked off the 20th Anniversary season. Thematically it makes sense for Omega to be in the next big televised anniversary. Fictionally let's look at some justifications....
a) Gallifrey is destroyed - well still Time-Locked I assume. It is for all intents and purposes "dead" and I think it's pretty clear RTD concluded his Time-War meta-thread with the conclusion to The End Of Time. And it doesn't appear that The Moff has shown any intention of doing anything with the Time Lords and/or Gallifrey. He seems happier to "create" and follow "new" Time Lord with River Song. An argument could be made that this is the ideal time for Omega to attempt to return to the positive universe.
b) Don't forget this "Doctor Who?" question. While the New Adventures made it more explicit and all but explained Cartmel's "Master Plan", there is still a line on screen setting it up. In Ressurection of the Daleks the Doctor implies he was involved in the creation of the Hand of Omega, and when picked-up on this backtracks to say he meant the Time Lords. But what if Moffat wants to run with some of that. Given that Omega stole the Doctor's Bio-data in Arc of Infinity, and any hidden data that The Doctor was or was connected to a contemporary of Omega and Rassilon - probably even "the" third "Other" temporal/stellar engineer may have been discovered by Omega since he returned to his Anti-Matter universe.
Could the Doctor's past have in it a way of stopping Omega, even if the Doctor himself doesn't at the moment consciously know it? (I can't really think of another reason why Omega would want to stop the question being answered).
c) Is Moffat even going to pick-up on some of the Masterplan at all? Who knows. But the question of answering who the Doctor is, even if only with another question seem to indicate that something about the history of Gallifrey will be involved, and I can see the established (off-screen) three some of Omega/Rassilon and an unnamed "Other" being involved. I'm not suggesting he will go into the detail of the Looms etc. But consider this...
The Three Doctors - Omega
The Five Doctors - Rassilon
The 50th Anniversary - Brings together Omega/Rassilon and "the Other"
By the way, in End of Time, do you think Rassilon was THE Rassilon or somebody sharing the same name? After all the Time Lords brought back The Master to help with the Time War (although a fat lot of good it did them
) Wouldn't they be tempted to bring back Rassilon, who wasn't even technically dead? If so... I wonder if Timothy Dalton will be back for the 50th...Most of my Blu-ray collection some of my UK discs aren't on their database
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Dr Frankenollie
- In The Vaults
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- Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 4:19 am
Interesting list, with a few surprising choices. I certainly wouldn't even put The Next Doctor in my top thirty.
But if it is happening, and Omega is the Big Bad (although I'd prefer him to be the Dragon to the Bigger Bad who pulls Omega's strings - someone like the Dream Lord, Valeyard or, even better, the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor-turned-evil, which brings Tennant back as the Doctor in a way, yet in a unique and more compelling manner), then I have a new theory:
- If Omega is behind the Silence, that means he is behind the militarised Church of the 51st Century. The letter Omega appears all over the place with the 51st Century military (see: Flesh and Stone and A Good Man Goes to War). Granted, it's not explicit that the Silence are responsible for the militarised Church, but considering Madam Kovarian works with both organisations and the fact that the Church was (unknowingly?) doing the Silence's bidding, I think it's probably canon.
- Omega militarised the Church because of humanity's potential: the Doctor has frequently referred to the species' unique curiousity, courage, innovation and "indomitable" survival, so perhaps humanity, if manipulated correctly, can be a powerful threat. Omega also chose humanity as his weapon because of the Doctor's love for them (although it's arguable that Omega can't know this). Moreover, Omega wants worship ("I should have been a GOD!") and so used the Silence to build a religion around him.
- Here comes the tricky bit. If the show did what I'm about to describe, it could Jump the Shark severely, and offend many people, yet for one reason or another, I rather like this idea. The reason the Silence don't want the Doctor to answer the Question - 'specially not on Trenzalore, where it appears you can tell the truth and nothing but the truth - is because it would spoil their plan of tricking humanity into thinking Omega was God. And why would that spoil their plan? Because the Doctor is God.
Certainly not the traditional idea of God - he cannot and should not be omnipotent, omniscient and all the rest of it. Quite simply, he is responsible for the creation of the universe - somehow. We really only know a little about the Time War. Also, technically, as of The Big Bang, the Doctor really did create the universe.
That is an excellent point, and also a superb idea. I really want that to be the truth now.2099net wrote:2) The faces of The Silence are ill formed - almost as if made from wax and melted. We've seen examples of other such messy creations when Omega has tried to will physical forms from his Anti-Matter universe before. Yes the Silence are better than Omega's previous efforts... but he's had practice! Could the Silence (creatures) be creations from Omega's Anti-Matter universe? The Silence attack with electricity (as did the Gel Guards... sort of... I think that was the intention anyway) and could their ability to make people forget them be something to do with their innate "anti" properties?
It was almost certainly the Rassilon. I doubt Dalton will return for the 50th Anniversary, however - there's just a single 60-minute special after the second half of S7. Too little time to bring back many characters. Part of me is now uncertain that the Silence/Kovarian/First Question story arc will even be wrapped up this year; maybe the special will instead be a nostalgia trip that briefly shifts the focus from the primary story arc.2099net wrote:By the way, in End of Time, do you think Rassilon was THE Rassilon or somebody sharing the same name? After all the Time Lords brought back The Master to help with the Time War (although a fat lot of good it did them
But if it is happening, and Omega is the Big Bad (although I'd prefer him to be the Dragon to the Bigger Bad who pulls Omega's strings - someone like the Dream Lord, Valeyard or, even better, the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor-turned-evil, which brings Tennant back as the Doctor in a way, yet in a unique and more compelling manner), then I have a new theory:
- If Omega is behind the Silence, that means he is behind the militarised Church of the 51st Century. The letter Omega appears all over the place with the 51st Century military (see: Flesh and Stone and A Good Man Goes to War). Granted, it's not explicit that the Silence are responsible for the militarised Church, but considering Madam Kovarian works with both organisations and the fact that the Church was (unknowingly?) doing the Silence's bidding, I think it's probably canon.
- Omega militarised the Church because of humanity's potential: the Doctor has frequently referred to the species' unique curiousity, courage, innovation and "indomitable" survival, so perhaps humanity, if manipulated correctly, can be a powerful threat. Omega also chose humanity as his weapon because of the Doctor's love for them (although it's arguable that Omega can't know this). Moreover, Omega wants worship ("I should have been a GOD!") and so used the Silence to build a religion around him.
- Here comes the tricky bit. If the show did what I'm about to describe, it could Jump the Shark severely, and offend many people, yet for one reason or another, I rather like this idea. The reason the Silence don't want the Doctor to answer the Question - 'specially not on Trenzalore, where it appears you can tell the truth and nothing but the truth - is because it would spoil their plan of tricking humanity into thinking Omega was God. And why would that spoil their plan? Because the Doctor is God.
Certainly not the traditional idea of God - he cannot and should not be omnipotent, omniscient and all the rest of it. Quite simply, he is responsible for the creation of the universe - somehow. We really only know a little about the Time War. Also, technically, as of The Big Bang, the Doctor really did create the universe.
Really? I know the Cyberking sort of sucked, but... I'm flabbergasted.Dr Frankenollie wrote:Interesting list, with a few surprising choices. I certainly wouldn't even put The Next Doctor in my top thirty.
Not so much to do with The Next Doctor, but generally my "favourite" Doctor Who stories are those as removed from the military shooters that seem to make up so many sci-fi films and tv shows. (Yes, but then I pick the only "real" New-Who UNIT story - I don't really consider The Christmas Invasion or The Power of Three to be UNIT stories - i.e. stories just as much about UNIT as the "monster of the week". I'm a riddle inside an enigma).
In old school terms I'm a Rad (not Trad) and in new school terms I AM NOT A 'SHIPPER!
I really can't see the full logic of the Silence. If this were RTD I would say that there wasn't really any logic, just a "feel". But Moffat is different. While I think some slips may have worked their way in, I'm pretty sure Moffat has had this worked out since the beginning and has always had the climax planned for the fiftieth.Because the Doctor is God.
Certainly not the traditional idea of God - he cannot and should not be omnipotent, omniscient and all the rest of it. Quite simply, he is responsible for the creation of the universe - somehow. We really only know a little about the Time War. Also, technically, as of The Big Bang, the Doctor really did create the universe.
That said... I'm uncomfortable with the idea the Silence have been influencing mankind since the beginning. It just doesn't seem to make sense. Especially as they (apparently) influenced the moon missions just to get a suit for River Song. Is that right? My head hurts. Talk about a long game.
I started typing another theory, but realised it didn't quite work. But what if the Doctor created the Silents when he rebooted the universe? I know the term "Silence" was threaded throughout the season, but what if the Silents didn't exist physically before - only (as with most religions) as the Order of Silence, a concept based only on faith?
Somehow, the idea of the Silence is imprinted into the Doctor, who, along with the universal matter inside the Pandorica created the Silence at the reboot. Was the whole "exploding TARDIS/Cracks in Time" a plot by the order to physically create the Silents to work for them?
I wondered if that was the secret - somehow the Doctor would reveal (again unconsciously) he created them/they shouldn't exist and as a result they wouldn't exist.
But this doesn't explain a few things:
1) Why do the Silence have at least one time ship in the first place? Have they influenced mankind continuously for hundreds of thousands of years, from generation to generation... or is there just a handful "zipping" through key points in time perhaps?
2) The voice inside the TARDIS in The Pandorica Opens.
Who or what exactly was it? While arguably other mentions to the Silence could be interpreted as just the dogmatic mantra of people indoctorated into a religious order, and the mention of "Silence" by Rosanna in Vampires of Venice could easily have nothing to do with the order - doesn't she say her kind were "escaping cracks in time through which we could only hear silence" or something similar?
It's not quite possible to write off the TARDIS voice - it's owner would have to be incredibly powerful to invade the TARDIS.
3) In The Impossible Astronaut, the Silent in the Bathroom seems to be implanting into Amy the compulsion to tell the Doctor that she is pregnant. "You must tell the doctor what you know and what he doesn't know". Why? Surely the Order of Silence would prefer the Doctor not to know Amy was ever pregnant. Was this a rogue Silent? Because at the very least, it seems like that particular Silent wanted Amy to tell the Doctor something about herself and/or the Silence.
I like your idea of the Doctor being God. So much for the Doctor stepping down after The Wedding of River Song. It's rather hard for God to step back
But I don't think that's the answer - I think its something which must go back to Gallifrey and why the Doctor ultimately left.Most of my Blu-ray collection some of my UK discs aren't on their database
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Dr Frankenollie
- In The Vaults
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- Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 4:19 am
Re: Doctor Who Discussion
Hey Franky!
What's the deal with Clara? Here's my theory...
So far, a theme of the first three stories Clara has been in/will be in appears to be "network". She hacked the Daleks' network. She seemed to overwhelm the Great Inteligence's mental "network" and caused the snow to melt (along with the other people in the house's emotions) and the first story of the second half of season 7 is to do with wi-fi.
Hummm.
My theory is she is a weapon created by the Time Lords for the Time War. Perhaps she was created to confuse and disorientate the Daleks in the first place. I think she's throughout time due to Gallifrey being time-locked. Perhaps, she's always the same age because she doesn't age. But I think Clara will be useful working/hacking all sorts of networks in the future.
And hey, Claranet is a UK ISP.
What's the deal with Clara? Here's my theory...
So far, a theme of the first three stories Clara has been in/will be in appears to be "network". She hacked the Daleks' network. She seemed to overwhelm the Great Inteligence's mental "network" and caused the snow to melt (along with the other people in the house's emotions) and the first story of the second half of season 7 is to do with wi-fi.
Hummm.
My theory is she is a weapon created by the Time Lords for the Time War. Perhaps she was created to confuse and disorientate the Daleks in the first place. I think she's throughout time due to Gallifrey being time-locked. Perhaps, she's always the same age because she doesn't age. But I think Clara will be useful working/hacking all sorts of networks in the future.
And hey, Claranet is a UK ISP.
Most of my Blu-ray collection some of my UK discs aren't on their database