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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:53 am 
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Dear Disney Enthusiasts,

NOTE: SPOILER ALERT FOR "ALADDIN", "THE HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME", AND "TARZAN".

Which animated Disney heroines (main characters, like Snow White or Rapunzel, as opposed to supporting characters, like Nakoma) are your LEAST favorite, and why don't you like them much?

NOTE: PLEASE STATE THE FACT THAT YOUR OPINIONS ARE YOUR OWN, BECAUSE I HAVE CAUGHT FLACK FOR MY OPINIONS ABOUT THE DISNEY HEROINES WHOM I DON'T LIKE. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT OPINIONS ARE ONLY OPINIONS.

MY OPINIONS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS.

My least favorite animated Disney heroines are as follows:

* Princess Jasmine: I first saw "Aladdin" when I was 13, and I was most negatively influenced by Princess Jasmine. Jasmine was portrayed as being sexy, so I began to believe that darker-skinned women were sexier than fair-skinned women, and that I'd never be sexy enough. I thought that Princess Jasmine was an impossibly perfect little tease of a woman, and that women were supposed to be that sexy. I began to believe that all women were supposed to tease men, just as Jasmine teased Aladdin and Jafar.

I never have gotten over my "Princess Jasmine Complex", and, to this day, I see Jasmine as being a cruel, demanding little tease, who sets a standard of female perfection that no woman can achieve, especially if she's Caucasian.

* Esmeralda: There's sooo much to like about Esmeralda that it's a crying shame that she was too shallow of a person to choose for a love interest the same person whom she said was "surprising". I've always disliked Esmeralda for her shallow, "normal", conformist personality, because I've always felt sorry for Quasimodo, who had to settle for being the town hero, when he could've been Esmeralda's husband, had she been a more accepting person. Don't even get me started about that scene of total, unabashed selfishness, during which Esmeralda and Phoebus kissed right in front of Quasimodo, breaking his heart in the very room in which he was standing at the moment! That was the height of rudeness, and that was the most cruel thing that they could've done to their friend. I'll never understand why hormonal urgency trumped friendship.

* Jane Porter: I don't actually dislike Jane Porter herself, but her hair (the messy bun, frosted look) reminds me sooo much of the hair of rich, shallow women who sometimes frequent Disneyland (You know, the frosted, messy bun, the sunglasses, the tanned, muscular husband, and the three kids in tow?) that she seems to represent shallowness, although she herself is FAR from being shallow. I also dislike her decent into primality, because it reminds me of all that's primal, and all that's primal is the opposite of all that's civilized (Ie: Filth Vs. Cleanliness, Hormonal Mating Vs. Civilized Courtship, etc.) I guess that I really dislike the suggestions more than the actual character of Jane Porter, who is delightful, smart, and cool.

Thank you in advance for your replies.
:idea:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:13 am 
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Hmm.. well those are some interesting ways to looks at those characters. Can't say I've heard most of that before!

I'd say one of my very least favorite heroines (if you want to count her) is Tinkerbell. The current films being made around Tink's life are a complete betrayal of the original character. Whereas I realize the main character of a childrens series shouldn't be selfish and hotheaded, maybe they should have rethought the entire project knowing that they would have to make Tinkerbell a completely different person. :P The movies in of themselves are cute (and progressively getting better) but I just can't shake the fact that it's really not Tink. She's much less cute and.. sassy, I suppose.

The only other Disney heroine I find myself disliking is Snow White! (I know, I know) It's partially her voice, partially how daft she is and partially the feeling that she was a representation of the ideal woman. Every time I watch Snow White, I wonder why she can't be just a bit more intellectual and charming like Cinderella. Cindy had such a wit about her.. Even Aurora had more brains than Snow White, both which had more tolerable voices as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:23 am 
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re: Tinkerbell

The movies are supposed to chronicle her time before Peter Pan. So we get to see her personality develop more and more into the sassy borderline evil demented fairy she becomes. Regarding her sex appeal, she is essentially only a child throughout the first 3 movies so I think it's okay she hasn't developed any of that yet. And her temper is certainly present during all the 3 films released so far, and boy what a temper! I'm just hoping the last film is epic enough to explain why she totally loses it in the end and leaves the fairies.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:59 am 
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I'll just come out and say it: Belle.

I don't like how classist she is and how she looks down on the townfolk. (Yeah, Gaston and his ilk deserve her ire, but what did everybody else do besides focus on their work instead of literature? And I say this as a hardcore bookworm.) I also don't like how her grand dreams of adventure end up to be a solitary magical adventure twenty miles from her house; but that's a story problem, not a character problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:28 am 
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This is actually quite an interesting topic (or has the potential to be, at least). Plus, I surprisingly don't think that we've ever done it before. Anyway, enough of that - let's get onto my choices.

Snow White: Yes, she is sweet and charming, and we don't want the Witch to get her, but she's just overall so ditzy and vague that I can't help but wonder if her IQ is barely bigger than her shoe size (and if her feet compare to Cinderella's, then I consider that REAL cause for concern ;)). One of the reasons that her film is one of my least favourite of Walt-era films (not that being one of my least favourite Walt-era films means it's anywhere near bad) is because of her. She really is just so sweet, passive and blissfully naive of everything that she comes across as having little dignity. As comparison, Cinderella is a far more spirited, dignified and ultimately far more sympathetic character; even Sleeping Beauty, the ultimate passive victim, comes across as having a lot more dignity. And I have to agree with many here that her voice could have done with autotune. :p

Penny: I debated as to whether to include this character from The Rescuers, as she technically is not a protagonist, but I put her down as it is her who gets the whole plot moving (she sent the message in the bottle that made Bernard and Bianca go after her). As well as using some of the clichés for the child-in-peril character (orphan who wants to be adopted, only has a cat and a teddy as friends), she has an extremely grating voice, almost like a girl who simply really wants to get a part in Annie. The boy in The Rescuers Down Under is a much more successful character than the original object of rescue.

Eilonwy: Ah, yes, that one princess who gets completely swept under the rug. ;) She shares the syndrome shared by most of then characters in The Black Cauldron; she's a poorly developed character popping up in an ultimately misbegotten film. Her voice actress is so unenthusiastic, and she ultimately seems there to just tip the male-female character ratio ever so slightly. She had potential to be an interesting character, and it appears as though she will be when we first meet her. Her character falters, though, in the one scene where the film really begins to take a turn for the worse, where she and Taran's gang are talking to each other in the wood after having escaped the Horned King's castle; it's a character moment devoid of any characterisation, so to speak.

Pocahontas: Another heroine who mirrors the issues I have with the film! :p She's not particularly bad (she's actually pretty hot if you ask me :twisted: ), but just a bit bland. I think that her dullness probably derives from the fact that she was made more sombre when the film was forced to become more serious from its originally intended lighter tone so as to try and get it a Best Picture win as opposed to just a mere nomination. I get the impression from what I've read that Pocahontas was supposed to be younger and more energetic, almost like a Native American Ariel. A few inklings of an enthusiastic character do come through from time to time, but she just seems a little dry nonetheless.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:58 am 
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Belle. I don't think she's classist, perse. I think she's a dolt. And she's a very poor feminist. She doesn't want to be a slave in a provincial town... So instead she becomes a slave in a castle. Big difference.

:roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:30 am 
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Lazario wrote:
Belle. I don't think she's classist, perse. I think she's a dolt. And she's a very poor feminist. She doesn't want to be a slave in a provincial town... So instead she becomes a slave in a castle. Big difference.

:roll:


Belle became a slave in a castle because she wanted her father released and so she made an 'exchange' deal with the Beast. A big difference indeed! She sacrificed her freedom for the sake of her father and you call her a 'poor feminist' for that? Even under these circumstances she wasn't a docile slave.
And this coming from the same guy wo defends the cypher Aurora and the movie Sleeping Beauty to death. (note: I do like SB, but I can see the shortcomings in the plot and character presentation) :roll: :wink:

(I don't really want to open a heated debate, just had to give my view. Hence also the 'wink' emoticon at the end)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Wonderlicious wrote:
Snow White: Yes, she is sweet and charming, and we don't want the Witch to get her, but she's just overall so ditzy and vague that I can't help but wonder if her IQ is barely bigger than her shoe size (and if her feet compare to Cinderella's, then I consider that REAL cause for concern ;)). One of the reasons that her film is one of my least favourite of Walt-era films (not that being one of my least favourite Walt-era films means it's anywhere near bad) is because of her. She really is just so sweet, passive and blissfully naive of everything that she comes across as having little dignity. As comparison, Cinderella is a far more spirited, dignified and ultimately far more sympathetic character; even Sleeping Beauty, the ultimate passive victim, comes across as having a lot more dignity. And I have to agree with many here that her voice could have done with autotune. :p


I guess being the "fairest one of all" comes at a big price.

Ironic to your assessment, a lot of what was in the original story was condensed to make Snow White less naive. In addition to the poisoned apple, the Witch also fooled her with two other items before she ultimately went into hibernation.

Quote:
Eilonwy: Ah, yes, that one princess who gets completely swept under the rug. ;) She shares the syndrome shared by most of then characters in The Black Cauldron; she's a poorly developed character popping up in an ultimately misbegotten film. Her voice actress is so unenthusiastic, and she ultimately seems there to just tip the male-female character ratio ever so slightly. She had potential to be an interesting character, and it appears as though she will be when we first meet her. Her character falters, though, in the one scene where the film really begins to take a turn for the worse, where she and Taran's gang are talking to each other in the wood after having escaped the Horned King's castle; it's a character moment devoid of any characterisation, so to speak.


Yes, like the entire film, Eilonwy was a missed opportunity. It's very hard to find someone lamenting the fact that she's among the forgotten princesses.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Jasmine ~ A bland, racist caricature. Of course the only two people in Aladdin that are actually given heavy Arabic characteristics are Jafar and Jasmine--one who is evil and the other who is eroticized. Besides, she's just plain annoying, voice and all. Tbh, I like her better in the sequels and TV series. But based on the first film alone, she's too self-righteous and spoiled.

Don't really have strong feelings either way about the rest of them. Though I do think Aurora is a blanket character, Belle has a voice that is sometimes annoying (and makes her seem like a snob when she's not really), and Mulan is a bit dull. Esmeralda overall isn't that bad of a character, but I hate that they had Demi Moore voice her. Kind of ruined it for me, and she ends up extremely boring because of it.

I personally enjoyed Eilonwy, and thought the actor was great as her. My only problem is they made her a bit of a damsel too often. Like that scene where they're escaping the Horned King's castle near the middle, Taran drags her back and forth all over the place, and all she does is gape at everything and scream, "Taran!" with eyes about to pop out of her head.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Disney's Divinity how are jasmines features anymore Arabic then Aladdins? they basically look like male and female versions of one another

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:30 pm 
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skyler888 wrote:
Disney's Divinity how are jasmines features anymore Arabic then Aladdins? they basically look like male and female versions of one another

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/ala ... din197.jpg
http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/ala ... din439.jpg
http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/ala ... din205.jpg
http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/ala ... din606.jpg
http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/ala ... din279.jpg

It's all in the eyes.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:41 pm 
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^ I don't really understand what you are trying to explain with those pictures?

if you are showing that jasmine's eyes are a bit more tilted and cat like then aladdin's, well that if usually a trait that they give to female characters, belle's eyes are the same

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:47 pm 
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eralkfang wrote:
I'll just come out and say it: Belle.

I don't like how classist she is and how she looks down on the townfolk. (Yeah, Gaston and his ilk deserve her ire, but what did everybody else do besides focus on their work instead of literature? And I say this as a hardcore bookworm.) I also don't like how her grand dreams of adventure end up to be a solitary magical adventure twenty miles from her house; but that's a story problem, not a character problem.

In her defense, the townfolk are even worse. Belle is reading a book at the beginning and they are whispering and singing and gossiping about her being "odd" because of an intellectual curiosity and not drooling over Gaston like all the pretty gals.

I don't think she even met her grand dreams of an adventure, but rather fell in love with a complex but ultimately warm-hearted creature. We didn't see any of those warm types in her town.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:11 pm 
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Jackoleen wrote:
Dear Disney Enthusiasts,

NOTE: SPOILER ALERT FOR "ALADDIN", "THE HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME", AND "TARZAN".

Which animated Disney heroines (main characters, like Snow White or Rapunzel, as opposed to supporting characters, like Nakoma) are your LEAST favorite, and why don't you like them much?

NOTE: PLEASE STATE THE FACT THAT YOUR OPINIONS ARE YOUR OWN, BECAUSE I HAVE CAUGHT FLACK FOR MY OPINIONS ABOUT THE DISNEY HEROINES WHOM I DON'T LIKE. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT OPINIONS ARE ONLY OPINIONS.

MY OPINIONS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS.

My least favorite animated Disney heroines are as follows:

* Princess Jasmine: I first saw "Aladdin" when I was 13, and I was most negatively influenced by Princess Jasmine. Jasmine was portrayed as being sexy, so I began to believe that darker-skinned women were sexier than fair-skinned women, and that I'd never be sexy enough. I thought that Princess Jasmine was an impossibly perfect little tease of a woman, and that women were supposed to be that sexy. I began to believe that all women were supposed to tease men, just as Jasmine teased Aladdin and Jafar.

I never have gotten over my "Princess Jasmine Complex", and, to this day, I see Jasmine as being a cruel, demanding little tease, who sets a standard of female perfection that no woman can achieve, especially if she's Caucasian.

* Esmeralda: There's sooo much to like about Esmeralda that it's a crying shame that she was too shallow of a person to choose for a love interest the same person whom she said was "surprising". I've always disliked Esmeralda for her shallow, "normal", conformist personality, because I've always felt sorry for Quasimodo, who had to settle for being the town hero, when he could've been Esmeralda's husband, had she been a more accepting person. Don't even get me started about that scene of total, unabashed selfishness, during which Esmeralda and Phoebus kissed right in front of Quasimodo, breaking his heart in the very room in which he was standing at the moment! That was the height of rudeness, and that was the most cruel thing that they could've done to their friend. I'll never understand why hormonal urgency trumped friendship.

* Jane Porter: I don't actually dislike Jane Porter herself, but her hair (the messy bun, frosted look) reminds me sooo much of the hair of rich, shallow women who sometimes frequent Disneyland (You know, the frosted, messy bun, the sunglasses, the tanned, muscular husband, and the three kids in tow?) that she seems to represent shallowness, although she herself is FAR from being shallow. I also dislike her decent into primality, because it reminds me of all that's primal, and all that's primal is the opposite of all that's civilized (Ie: Filth Vs. Cleanliness, Hormonal Mating Vs. Civilized Courtship, etc.) I guess that I really dislike the suggestions more than the actual character of Jane Porter, who is delightful, smart, and cool.

Thank you in advance for your replies.
:idea:

I'm sorry man, but I can't help but laugh fucking hard at you for your reasoning for your dislike of the characters.

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actually it would be the nose. Jasmine has a female arabic nose oppose to the other female white characters.




me?
The three fairies(yes that's right, they are the main heroines in Sleeping Beauty, not Aurora. Isn't that fucking lame?)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:20 pm 
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does alice count?? out of all disney females, i dislike her the most. forever doing to opposite of what she should and then giving up and crying when it goes bad. as a result, i dont often watch her movie, despite loving the other characters.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:59 pm 
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I personally don't like a lot of the heroines after the Walt ones pretty much because of how bitchy they can get and, well, you know how they say the past girls were meant to be like how the viewed women in that time? It's clear that these modern girls are that even moreso! The difference is that the way girls were viewed back in Walt's time was not too different from the way girls were viewed in the fairy tales, either, and it fit. It's like I feel the girls are so gung-ho about fighting and going after what they want that it's not realistic, because of purposely trying to be better than past heroines and be more liked, and feminist.

I wish that the way the modern heroines were/are, and the way the older heroines were, could be more mixed and balanced. Then maybe we'd like them all! Or would they not be individual enough, then? Well, they could always have their own individual ways of getting angry, fighting, going after what they want, dreaming and having talents/ideas. Which I guess they all do, but it's very slight for some.

Oh wait, but I can point out one:

Tiana: Because she is a work-aholic. She works too much. It's like she doesn't want to have fun or pleasure. It's like she must always be doing something all the time. And she doesn't believe in the things Disney has stood for. And she came off as pretty boring, to boot. I kind of like her personality, but not what she does or believes in.

Patrick, you made me so happy with what you said about Cinderella! However, if Snow White was more like her, I'm afraid the two might not be different enough.

I kind of like how Snow White at least is the cloesest to pure innocence and pure wishing. Although, she may come off as dumb, but she's really not. She gets the animals to help her do many things, and she was even going to "pretend" to leave to get the dwarfs to want her to stay in a deleted scene. She's not dumb, just so nice, trusting, and believing the best of people...accept with the hand-washing thing, which...kinda bugs me. But I think she had more reason not to trust them than the witch, I think she had more reason to be suspecting something.

As for Jasmine Divinity I agree with a lot but I actually think that Aladdin needed a bit more arabianizing and that Jasmine's is a good thing (her different nose especially). Also, I think her and Jafar are both wearing make-up...!

Sunhuntin, Alice actually does a few smart things in her film, and does some good advice, like reading the bottle for poison (which Snow White didn't do, lol!), so what does she do that's the opposite of what the others say?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:49 pm 
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I dislike Wendy and Alice. They are just too sweet, too goody-goody, thus they're too boring. They have almost no personality, they let everything happen to them, they're passive. Yes, Aurora and Cinderella were passive as well (yes, she was, Duster, no discussion this time), but at least they had personality. Alice and Wendy are void of any trace of personality.

Wonderlicious wrote:
[...] As well as using some of the clichés for the child-in-peril character (orphan who wants to be adopted, only has a cat and a teddy as friends), she has an extremely grating voice, almost like a girl who simply really wants to get a part in Annie. The boy in The Rescuers Down Under is a much more successful character than the original object of rescue.

You realize we will never be able to be friends after this, do you?


@ Jackoleen: Just because you state it's just "your opinion", doesn't mean you will not or should not catch a lot of flack for it. Because when opinions sound ridiculous and are based on bullshit, people will let you know. Like me. (Surprise!)

Of course you have every right to dislike every character you want, and I won't lose any sleep over it. Nor do I expect to change your mind about it, even if I wanted to. But I'm still going to adress it. Because I find your reasoning very troubling (and it's not the first post of yours which has that effect).

Your 'problems' with Jasmine and Jane Porter have more to do with your own delusions, as you have admitted yourself, than with the actual characters and the way they behave. Somebody should've told you that animated films aren't real, nor do they aim to represent reality, and therefore you shouldn't attach too much meaning to them. The fact that you did, in the case of Jasmine, can hardly be held against the character itself. And the fact that you dislike Jane Porter because of a minor physical rsemblance to (a generalization of) women you don't like, says more about you than it does about the character.

Esmeralda didn't even know Quasimodo was in love with her, so you can't say she was "rude" when she kissed Phoebus in front of Quasi. Besides, it was only realistic that a drop-dead gorgeous woman falls for a handsome man instead of a 'mis-shapen' man like Quasi. Fiction is all well, but there are limits to what is believable, and having Esmeralda fall in love with Quasi would simply not be believable. Plus, it would be far too predictable.

Oh, and by the way:

Jackoleen wrote:
I began to believe that darker-skinned women were sexier than fair-skinned women,

Uhm... that's actually true. :oops:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:31 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
I dislike Wendy and Alice. They are just too sweet, too goody-goody, thus they're too boring. They have almost no personality, they let everything happen to them, they're passive. Yes, Aurora and Cinderella were passive as well (yes, she was, Duster, no discussion this time), but at least they had personality. Alice and Wendy are void of any trace of personality.


Agree on Wendy but not so on Alice.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:46 pm 
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Super Aurora wrote:
me?
The three fairies(yes that's right, they are the main heroines in Sleeping Beauty, not Aurora. Isn't that fucking lame?)

The fairies are perhaps most obnoxious characters in Disney Animation history. Actually, I'll go with the Jennifer Tilly-voiced cow in Home on the Range. Do bovine count as heroines? What a cowshit movie that was.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:14 pm 
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Goliath, they are only sexier in your opinion, it is not "true".

But if you want to say it is, and hurt Jackoleen's feelings even more, and kick someone while they're down, then my, my.

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