Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs Discussion

[blackcauldron85]

I’ve been doing a lot of research into earlier Disney shorts and films lately, and one thing that I read (in Leonard Maltin’s “The Disney Films”, Fourth Edition, on page 29) was that, interestingly enough, the animation of the Prince was considered to be the worst character animation in the film back when the film came out, but Leonard writes (he says “Prince Charming”, but he doesn’t really mean Prince Charming):
“They deliberately brought Prince Charming into the picture for only two brief scenes (at the beginning and the end), because they felt he looked unbearably stiff. (Today, ironically enough, with the soft, cuddly style of drawing on the outs and more realistic drawing popular, the Prince looks better than any of the other human characters in the film.)
[Maltin, Leonard. The Disney Films. New York: Disney Editions, 2000.]

I don’t necessarily agree with him, but I found that to be an interesting mind-set. Does anyone agree with him? Disagree? Comments?

(I had posted this in the SW DVD/Blu-ray thread, but I figured it fits better in this thread...)

[goofystitch]

Hey Amy,

I love that book. I read it while watching all of the Walt-era films (it took a while to track them down and get through them all). I disagree with Leonard and I think that Snow White, The Queen, and The Huntsman look better and more human than The Prince does. I agree with Walt and the animators that he was too stiff and they simply didn't have enough experience with a realistic man to pull it off at that time, but I would say they definitely did it right with Prince Charming in Cinderella.

I read somewhere that the early animation tests of The Prince always made him look either too feminine or too stiff. They couldn't get the physical mannerisms of a man correctly. On the 2001 Platinum Edition, there is a deleted storyboarded sequence in which the prince does a flip after singing "One Song" and it looked more like a woman in man's clothes doing gymnastics than a man excited that he is in love.

I know there were more scenes planned for The Prince, including his capture by The Queen and his eventual escape and both were cut because it was to time consuming and difficult to animate him. In the end, I think the film benefits from not having those scenes. It's not like Sleeping Beauty where the heroin is asleep for half that film and you need to follow Prince Phillip to continue the story. Snow White is awake for all but 5 minutes of the film, so leaving her to see The Prince captured and his plan for escape would have taken the story in a direction that wasn't necessary. In the end, its the dwarfs who save the day anyways.

I think the only thing about Snow White that I would have changed if I had been at the studio during its production would be to not have the text narrative about the dwarfs mourning her. I think a montage about how much time had passed would have been more effective. They could have shown the dwarfs kneeling at her side day and night and shown seasons change instead of having scrolling text tell you what they didn't animate.

[Deco King]

Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs has a charming magical feel to it. The backgrounds are beautifully drawn and each of the characters is pleasingly animated , with the exception of the Prince who looks rather camp!

The brasher colours of the Silly Symphonies , have been deliberately toned down for a full length animated movie , all in all it's very beautiful to look at!

I am really looking forward to the forthcoming Platinum edition Blu Ray coming out in October , to see what remastering wonders Disney have wrought on this classic motion picture.

I wonder what super new extras there will be on the Blu Ray?

Apparently they've greatly added to the extras since the last 2001 Platinum edition! I'm hoping that the excised animated sequence
Boil Cauldron Boil - the Witch at the Cauldron before she dips the applein the poisonous brew - will have been cleaned up to the standard of the rest of the movie.

One thing is quite certain , on October 6th we'll see Snow White as never before , more pristine than ever , and truly looking the Fairest One Of All !!

[Marky_198]

I was checking the best Snow White Thread to post in. I wanted to ask a favor, I don't know if anybody would be kind enough to do this for me. Well I was hoping maybe somebody who owns the Snow White "Masterpiece" Laser disc and the Platinum Edition DVD could compare and contrast the differences in quality. You know sort of like the Cinderella comparison someone did a while back comparing the laser disc and DVD. If no one can I understand. It's just I wanna see how different or how similar they look.

I would love to see those comparisons too!

I have the Platinum Edition dvd and the vhs that came out at the same time as the laserdisc, and that earlier restoration looks absolutely pristine.
Just perfect.
In the Platinum Edition dvd lines are way too thick (Snowwhite's arms when she's singing by the wishing well), and in many scenes the cheeks and lips are extremely red which make the characters look like clowns.

Also this rubbery/clay-ish/blurry/foundation look we talked about is way too obvious in this restoration. It really looks like Snowwhite is behind some grey-ish/blue glass. There is a layer over the film.
Like this: http://www.dvd.nl/images.php?reviewid=371&imageid=4

This disturbing look is seen in many restorations, but not in the 1994 one which makes that one look much clearer and fresher and more authentic.

[blackcauldron85]

Here's a very interesting article about different women who have played the part of Snow White over the years:

http://www.mouseplanet.com/8773/Grumpy_ ... now_Whites

I haven't finished reading it, but it is quite interesting and informative!

[Disney's Divinity]

“They deliberately brought Prince Charming into the picture for only two brief scenes (at the beginning and the end), because they felt he looked unbearably stiff. (Today, ironically enough, with the soft, cuddly style of drawing on the outs and more realistic drawing popular, the Prince looks better than any of the other human characters in the film.)
[Maltin, Leonard. The Disney Films. New York: Disney Editions, 2000.]

I don’t necessarily agree with him, but I found that to be an interesting mind-set. Does anyone agree with him? Disagree? Comments?

I actually agree with him, but I might be agreeing on different terms. If he means, as far as if they just look realistic, I think the Huntsman is the best of the film. But if he means a combination of looking realistic and a good design, then I would agree with him. The Prince has a very charming air about him, and he does more for me than either Prince Charming or Phillip do, strangely enough. The Queen looks realistic in the face (from a frontal view, her side view is fairly ugly to me), but there's something about her design I just don't like.

To be honest, the Hag is the best of the characters in the film for me, but she's definitely not realistic.

Thinking about it, I don't think I've ever really stated my feelings about this film in this topic actually. So I think I'll do so while I'm here:

Snow White is easily one of my least favorite Disney animated features. There are certainly points of the film in which I like. For instance, the Hunstman, the Magic Mirror, the Prince and Snow White are all great characters. Snow White herself has a lot of likability and I've never understood why so many people dislike her voice. However, the problem with the film for me falls with the Evil Queen and the Dwarfs. I just don't care for them. The Evil Queen's design totally turns me off and I can't quite explain why. I suppose some of it has to do with her lack of beauty--she's not ugly, but in no way does she embody the vain Queen of the fairy tales. Also, her voice sounds way too old and doesn't fit the character to me. Her alter ego as the Old Peddler Woman is an improvement for sure. The voice fits and she looks great in animation (although removing a few of the warts and sightly sores would've been appreciated). As for the Dwarfs, I don't find them very engaging for some reason. I'm sure, for their time, they were great, but I've never been interested by them and often find them bothersome.

Going to the plot, I think this film has the same problem both Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty have: too much focus on the sidekicks. And, worse, the Dwarfs are much less interesting than the side characters found in those films. This lack of balance, imo, causes the film to drag heavily in the middle, to the point where I usually skip scenes, go to sleep or turn it off.

As for the music, it's a so-so for me (as is to be expected from such an old film). "I'm Wishing/One Song" is easily the best of the film, and in my top ten favorite Disney songs. "Heigh Ho" is also iconic, but I don't really care for any of the other songs here. Most are better as melodies than songs.

Anyway, I feel Snow White gets too much credit for being the first animated film. I almost wish Pinocchio had been made first, just so a film I feel could deserve that much credit would receive it.

[blackcauldron85]

And yet your avatar and signature are from Snow White...

[Deco King]

Disney's Divinity said in a previous post :
However, the problem with the film for me falls with the Evil Queen and the Dwarfs. I just don't care for them. The Evil Queen's design totally turns me off and I can't quite explain why. I suppose some of it has to do with her lack of beauty--she's not ugly, but in no way does she embody the vain Queen of the fairy tales. Also, her voice sounds way too old and doesn't fit the character to me. Her alter ego as the Old Peddler Woman is an improvement for sure. The voice fits and she looks great in animation (although removing a few of the warts and sightly sores would've been appreciated). As for the Dwarfs, I don't find them very engaging for some reason. I'm sure, for their time, they were great, but I've never been interested by them and often find them bothersome.


One man's meat is another man's poison ( or should that be Poisoned Apple ?? !! )

I love the Wicked Queen she and her Alter Ego The Witch or Peddler Woman make the movie for me !!

In both of her guises , she fulfills her role perfectly , in her rather Joan Crawford-ish beauty with her hard cruel mouth and curved scimitar eybrows , she is , for me anyway , a perfect sophisticated and urbane foil for Snow White and her naive girlishness!

Lucille La Verne's voice is regal and wholly suited to both roles ( apparently for the part of the Old Witch , La Verne simply removed her false teeth!! )

We each have a perfect right to our opinion , so I'm not denigrating the opinion of Disney's Divinity , but for me and many others the
Wicked Queen is the best character in the movie! However , though I love The Witch , I always feel that there is an element of Anti Semitism about her portrayal with the gestures etc? What do others think ( ??? ), I've never heard it voiced elsewhere , and she was designed by Joe Grant who was Jewish himself!

[Disney Duster]

I don't think the peddler woman is like a Jewish peddler stereotype. Walt probably had a Jewish man animate the witch to avoid anything offensive as he later had a very politically correct man work on Song of the South (though a lot that man's work may have been thrown out by another man working on the film!). Just the fact a Jewish man animated her shows she is not anti-semitic.

Wow Divinity, I like I'm Wishing/One Song the most in the film, too!

I read that Disney usually devotes so much time to the characters because, well, they're funny and sometimes they think certain members of the audience need them not to be bored with the stuff other (more sophisticated!) audience members would appreciate, and also they try to make all the characters stand out and be endearing.

I wish, though, that they kept the original title of the fairy tale, just "Snow White", lesson the dwarfs a bit and do a little more for the Prince and Snow White falling in love, and maybe show why Snow White goes into her room instead of going with the Prince. Likewise, any Walt Disney fairy tale could have a bit more time taken from the sidekicks and given to the leads falling in love.

BUT check this out: In the original story, the Prince falls in love with Snow White sleeping, and either it says it's because she is so beautiful, or you can pretty safely assume it. The dwarfs don't bury her because she is beautiful, and get this, the Huntsman doesn't kill her because she is so beautiful! Probably also because she is pleading for her life and kindly willing to run away to help the Huntsman, but...

BUT Disney's version has the Prince fall in love with Snow White while awake, so he could love her singing and perhaps her cute activity at the well. It's not just because she's beautiful.

Similarly, Walt decided Prince Phillip should fall in love with Sleeping Beauty before she's asleep, and perhaps it was her singing and cute dancing he loved. The point is these princes love their princesses awake and lively. These princes love their princesses for more than just their beauty, Walt made sure.

Then, when the Huntsman can't kill Snow White, she hides her face with her arms! He can't look at her beautiful face! It is very safe to assume he couldn't kill her because she was so kind to that little bird a moment before, or maybe just because she looked so frightened and innocent and scared, shielding her face like that.

[pap64]

I think the scene where the Huntsman tries to kill Snow White and the flight through the worlds that follows afterwards are some of the most intense moments in Disney film history. You are treated to this beautiful, breezy countryside with SW singing and taking care of the baby bird. Then reality creeps in with the huntsman sneaking to kill her, then the movie becomes horrific as she escapes the threat of the Queen.

I think very few films have been able to replicate this kind of mood that Snow White accomplished so well.

[Deco King]

The Wicked Queen's transformation sequence is a masterpiece of animation I love the film so much on so many different levels! The humour of the loveable Dwarfs , Grumpy's transformation from mysoginist to smitten Snow White fan!

The Witch/Peddler Woman is a favourite character , along with her familiars the Crown or Raven , and the Vultures!

All in all I can't wait until October 6th!

[Marky_198]

Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs has a charming magical feel to it.

The brasher colours of the Silly Symphonies , have been deliberately toned down for a full length animated movie , all in all it's very beautiful to look at!

I know that Walt deliberately toned down the colours for Snowwhite.
That's why I think the 2001 dvd, overly bright colours are horrific.
What were they thinking?

The 1994 release is still the best.

[The_Iceflash]

Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs has a charming magical feel to it.

The brasher colours of the Silly Symphonies , have been deliberately toned down for a full length animated movie , all in all it's very beautiful to look at!

I know that Walt deliberately toned down the colours for Snowwhite.
That's why I think the 2001 dvd, overly bright colours are horrific.
What were they thinking?

The 1994 release is still the best.

I knew this was coming.

[Disney Duster]

^ Hey, when Frank or Ollie Johnston said "those weren't the colors we used" when seeing Snow White and the Seven Dwarf's 2001 restoration... Now they're dead and who but someone who was 13 when they worked on the film is alive and able to remember what it looked like? Also certain textures were given to the art, a silky texture for the Queen's clothes, a spun-wool texture for the dwarfs' clothes, etc. Hope they aren't smoothed out or lost.

That's another thing, thanks Deco!

People sometimes accuse Snow White's film, and the treatment of her character, as sexist.

But Grumpy is a misogynist. He hates and distrusts women. Isn't he sexist? And then he comes around, learning to love her, because she wins him over. Snow White is powerful in winning with kindness, warmth, and her personality. Yes, kind of like all Disney princesses are supposed to be, at least Walt's.

[Deco King]

Still hoping that Disney will launch a Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs on Blu Ray website really soon - OK I know I'm obsessed with this movie , but after all without Snow White there would be no Disneyland/Disney World etc!!

[Disney Duster]

Not too many people will care to hear so much about one subject of one film, but what the hey, I want to.

I wanted to touch on the beauty issue in this film. In many fairy tales, especially the first three by Walt Disney, beauty is a part of the tale. It has also unfortunately lead to people wondering if the girls are loved and succeed because of their beauty. In Snow White, the issue of beauty is at the forefront, being the reason the heroine is in peril, and the question is asked who is the most beautiful of all.

Well, Snow White is actually not very attractive. She's cute, and lovely, but she definately doesn't look like the fairest one of all! In some places, she does look beautiful, but in other places, she can look almost ugly to me! Of course, even Cinderella, who's prettier, sometimes bothered me, and it could be the way the Disney artists would sometimes drew noses. They actually drew them in a realistic way, but also kind of weird way. They would often be round with slanting nostrels. But anyway...

We know Snow White was made to older standards of beauty, and maybe the reason she doesn't seem so hot is because she doesn't match ideas of beauty today, but it was clear that they were aiming for a very natural, what The Encyclopedia of Disney Characters called "girl next store" beauty than "out and out beauty", and I think it meant Walt Disney was aiming for a relatively average looking girl, even if still attractive. If you need some evidence, look at the lovelier or sexier designs considered for her that you've seen in DVD's or books or online. The Goddess of Spring was more attractive than Snow White. And then, Cinderella, made after her, was more attractive, and then Aurora was even more attractive (Marc Davis even said they designed Aurora prettier than Cinderella)!

Now, it is possible that the reason Snow White is less attractive is because she's younger. She is 14 or 15, while Cinderella is 18 and Aurora is 16 (and gifted with beauty from a magical fairy!) Thus, Cinderella and Aurora are also sexier, while Snow White...barely even has a chest, though she is curvy. And that is another part of it. Back in the older days, even the days that these fairy tales began, girls were preferred to have full figures. It could have been part of the idea that the healthier and upper class were able to obtain more food and be well fed. But actually, a fuller body (not overweight) also looks healthier, as well as indicates better for bearing children. It is Cinderella's time which had the fashionable French making corsets for tight waists (and in the film you see Cinderella's waist get skinner when she transforms into the ballgown!).

So this girl who's attractive, but not very much so, being the fairest one of all, can send the message that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and anyone can be the fairest. Snow White, being a child herself, will look like most children, actually. We all looked very cute and similar in facial features when we were young children. And though Snow White is 14, she looks especially child-like, which matches her inisde as well, her mind and her heart. Of course all the Disney heroines have pretty simple, child-like faces. Hey, we think children are cute, and good and innocent, and Disney has always been connected to children and the child in all of us. I just realized even Snow White's brown eyes are the more common color most people have, though blue eyes and blonde hair are common in children (we lose the colors as we age), and are associated with innocence, good, and angels, which is why so many heroines have those features to look good and innocent, in addition to the primitive tendency for us to like the colors because they look young like children and we find them more beautiful, perhaps because they are so bright. And that only goes for most people, everyone has different likes and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Now, I have wondered for a while if Disney truly did make Snow White the fairest one of all not because of her looks but because of her inner beauty. She is not the most attractive Disney heroine, but she is the kindest, sweetest, most good and innocent one. It is very, very clear from the start that Snow White is extremely good and kind, not just beautiful.

And so, when the Prince falls for her, he's falling in love with a girl who even we, the audience, have started falling for. We know he's loving someone good, and someone good for him. The Prince is kind, too, singing a song for her, and he is also gentle as Snow White, to have a dove rest on his finger like hers.

The idea is that these two are meant for each other, and merely by hearing her voice and seeing her does the Prince know she is the one destined for him, and he loves her right away, knowing all she is (that he needs to know to have deep love). It is an ideal used for fairy tales.

For those who don't understand such a thing and need the Prince to see more of Snow White's inside, perhaps it would've been nice if the Prince saw Snow White being kind to a dove (like the Hunter saw her being kind to a bird), as well as talking to it about what she likes and wants. Then, to go further, she could be kind to the Prince himself and talk to him a bit, perhaps by giving him water from the well (this was used in one of the filmed versions of Rogers and Hammerstein's Cinderella!). Then why would she run away? Oh, perhaps if he started to compliment her and make her feel embarassed.

But the fairy tale of loving someone deeply and instantly when you first hear and see them...well, it's magical.

Now, what about Snow White compared to the other girls in the story? Could people accuse Snow White of nabbing the prince because she's more beautiful than other girls (like people could accuse Cinderella of nabbing the Prince by being more beautiful than her ugly stepsisters, even though there were plenty of other lovely young ladies at the ball, too...)? No, because in this tale we have another beautiful woman, who was once fairest of them all, but inside she is evil. And when she becomes old and ugly, it is an impossible vulture-like ugly no person could ever look naturally. Aw, fairy tales.

In fact, in addition to a character that is beautiful on the outside but ugly on the inside, Snow White is very, very kind to a woman who is ugly and scary on the outside! Some people seem to think Beauty and the Beast is so deep for the idea that your true beauty and who you are is on the inside, but Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs showed such deepness way before! Even including a beautiful heroine who looks past looks (and she actually showed fear at the witch's appearence in moments, like Belle did with the Beast!) Of course I accept Beauty and the Beast went deeper with the subject, and could be deeper in other ways. Oh, just remembered Belle even had brown eyes like Snow White.

But even the poisoned apple represents the idea that looks do not match insides. The apple is beautiful and tempting, red like Snow White's lips and cheeks. But inside is something no one wants.

Well...thought I'd give the first and fairest of them all a good discussion like it deserves!

[pap64]

See, I wouldn't compare Snow White's beauty to the rest of the Disney Princesses (and Disney leads in general) for the sole reason that each film has an unique style, meaning that the character's vision of beauty may vary according to the style use.

I mean, Aurora is very angular and stylized, especially in the chin. Sure she was beautiful in the scenes depicting her as the SLEEPING beauty, but for the rest of the movie she has an unique look.

Snow White, on the other hand, was Disney's first truly believable, realistically designed female character. They spent YEARS perfecting the animation of female leads and Snow White's design is a reflection of both the inexperience and experimentation Disney and his team went through when making the movie.

Long story short; comparing Snow's beauty to the other princesses would be like comparing apples and oranges. They both may be fruit but they taste differently....but they are still important and lovely in their own ways.

[blackcauldron85]

The Goddess of Spring was more attractive than Snow White.

You think so?!? But she's so rubbery! (Some people like making fun of Snow White; I can't help but tease about The Goddess of Spring. The animation and music just bring the lulz.)

The Prince is kind, too, singing a song for her, and he is also gentle as Snow White, to have a dove rest on his finger and have the dove kiss his teeth.

I fixed the sentence for you.

Then why would she run away?

She probably hadn't met many boys before, especially not many cute boys, so she probably was flattered but embarrassed at the attention!

Now, what about Snow White compared to the other girls in the story? Could people accuse Snow White of nabbing the prince because she's more beautiful than other girls (like people could accuse Cinderella of nabbing the Prince by being more beautiful than her ugly stepsisters, even though there were plenty of other lovely young ladies at the ball, too...)? No, because in this tale we have another beautiful woman, who was once fairest of them all, but inside she is evil.

Why would Prince fall for the Queen? She's old! He's young, Snow White is young, it just makes sense. And, we don't know what kind of competition Snow White had for the Prince- maybe there aren't many kind, cute girls in the kingdom.

They both may be fruit but they taste differently....but they are still important and lovely in their own ways.

I think that they're all beautiful. Like anyone, though, people like different things. I think that Jasmine is the most beautiful, but a lot of that has to do with her personality, too.

[Disney Duster]

Oh, I'm so glad I got further discussion from you two. I read and thought on everything you said.

But I must say to Pap, it seems like you didn't read every thing I said, because I thought I pointed out evidence that they were able to draw many more attractive designs for girls.

And remember, Marc Davis actually came out and said he designed Aurora to be prettier than Cinderella, meaning they were indeed conscious of how attractive their characters were compared to other characters, and conciously made them more or less attractive.

Even though I do like the idea that no princess, and no character, is more attractive, they just all have their own unique style...you could apply that to life. We just all have our own style!

I almost forgot to say, in the art of Gustaf Tenggren, both his Snow White and Prince are more attractive than the final film, and his visual style was supposed to be the style of the film! So was it a conscious decision to scale Snow White's beauty back more, or was it just the result of making her and the Prince look more realistic, like stars of the day?

Amy, the Goddess of Spring is animated way less well and does look rubbery, but her actual design, her physical design, is prettier, though it could be because she's supposed to be older and more mature, so more developed.

Jasmine looks like the most sexualized Disney Princess! But that's alright, as you pointed out, she has many other redeeming qualities especially on the inside!

You did point out something I wanted to note in relation to Snow White, though. The Queen is old, and Snow White is young, and that's probably why the Queen isn't fairest anymore and Snow White is. In real life, that's how it is. We're all hot teenagers...and then it goes downhill unless your a movie star with make-up and hair experts, haha. Well, for most of us anyway. But that's also why the Prince would be with Snow White, she's closer to his age, more like him. Even though according to an old script he was 4 years older than her...

[CampbellzSoup]

So I just pre-ordered the Blu Ray at Toys R Us because if you do you get a $5 dollar gift card as well, and with the 10 dollar coupon I'll get the BLu Ray for like 7 dollars mwahha