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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:02 am 
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Well, I went to see Secret Word of Arrietty with Kiki last night. We had a nice time. We usually have dinner too, but she had already eaten, so we just got milkshakes at the theater (Drafthouse). I think I will go back, possibly tomorrow, because I really wanted to have dinner there (LOVE their pizza) and they are showing Totoro, which I've never seen.

I liked Arrietty fine, but Kiki expected better from a Ghibli, which seems to be the general consensus. I'm easily satisfied, I admit, but I tend to find the good things in a movie and enjoy them. Anyway, as for the situation...

Well, I am still trying to shake the stress of my bad job experience. And the lady who I spent the whole evening with (since I had to drive out of town with her to have her mother cosign on a car) that was so excited to e-mail me the info about the Progressive job never did actually do it yet, so I'm just going to have to go to Progressive.com tomorrow while applying for other Craigslist stuff too. I'd do it tonight, but I really have to get some commission art work done. I have one big commission going, but after that, no more source of income, and I really need to use this pay to put down on an apartment.

Speaking of, I talked more with Kiki about sharing a place. It was kind of a frustrating night though. At first, she mentioned she might place an ad for a roommate, which is fine with me if it's not a guy this time, though she isn't all together unattracted to girls, so it might not matter. However, I still reminded her that I am here if she needs a roommate, because she is uncomfortable with strangers and has said she might have to transfer somewhere else if she has trouble finding somewhere to live and someone to room with. We only discussed it briefly before the movie, but on the way home after, it came up again, and she started to get more into the idea of rooming with me. But, then she said that annoying thing she says often, "But, I thought you didn't want to room with me if we weren't going to be dating." This always causes me to say, "So, you decided you don't want to date me?" (by "dating", she means being exclusive). It's a constant question because from the beginning she knew it was a romantic interest I had in her, and she seemed to share it, but whenever I've brought it up since (wondering why things were never moving along), she has always said she doesn't know, because sometimes she wants to date me and sometimes she doesn't. It's not the most uplifting response. I would consider it a red flag right away, but in the past she always said she just has trust issues and has to spend a long time with someone. However, the fact that she moved in with her last boyfriend so fast seems to contradict that. Then again,... that also turned into a bad experience, which is a good reason for her to be apprehensive. Anyway, last night, again, she said, "No," that she hadn't really made a decision about me romantically, good or bad. So, it's weird and frustrating, and it would probably be advisable to move on, but I'm in love with her so it's really not an option, ha. Until I have a definite answer, I'll be around. And moving in together, of course, wouldn't seem like a good idea... but it also could be the only way she might come to a definite decision. I'm willing to spend 6 months living with her to see what happens. Odds are, she'll decide to just room with someone else, but I'll see. I mean, she must like me a bit if she does decide to room with me. Maybe that can grow into something. Anyway, that's what's going on right now. I still need to catch up with everyone else's posts here...

For now, I need to find a job quick so I CAN get a place with her if she wants to, or by myself, whichever. But, I'm also hoping she WILL decide to share a place with me. Maybe I can win her over like the Beast did Belle...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:35 pm 
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@ slave2moonlight: I debated long and hard with myself whether or not I should write this. I wrote some things, erased them, wrote them again in different wording etc. I wanted to add some thoughts to your situation with Kiki after reading your last post above mine. I want to be completely honest and frank, but I don't want to come off as an asshole (at least not this time - lol!). So I'm just warning you: I don't want to make you feel bad; my intention is not to hurt you or to be mean-spirited. I'm just gonna "tell it like I sees it".





She doesn't want to date you. She's not interested in you 'that way'. She doesn't think of you in a romantic way.


What makes me say that? Experience. When a woman is seeing you and hanging out with you for that long -for such a big amount of time- and nothing has ever happened, and she still 'doesn't know' whether or not she wants you... then she doesn't want you. If she did, she would've make her move by now, or at least she would've told you she wants to. But after such a long period of time, a woman knows whether or not she wants to be with a man. If she says she doesn't know 'yet', or that she has to 'think about it' some more, she's lying.

And you pointed that out yourself. It was you who wrote that her excuses for cancelling dates were always "fishy". It was you who just wrote how it doesn't make sense how, on the one hand, she says she has bonding/anxiety issues, yet she moved in with her boyfriend in a heartbeat. It was you who pointed out how it doesn't make sense that she considers advertising for a roommate, while she said to you she's not comfortable around strangers. So in a sense, I think you already know that what I wrote above is true.

Then you would ask (yourself), why does she keep hanging out with me? Well, I once was in love with a girl (we're talking a long time ago, maybe 8 years or so) who also already had a boyfriend, but she would keep seeing me. We would go to the cinema together, have dinner together, we would even be intimate fysically (cuddling etc., we would not kiss or have sex) and she would always badmouth her boyfriend. Still, she stayed with him. Why did she spend all that time with me? I think she just wanted attention. She wasn't getting enough attention, or not the kind of attention she wanted, from her boyfriend and she compensated by hanging out with me. Of course, I didn't want to see that, because I was very much in love with her and I just waited and waited and meanwhile wanted to do everything to be with her. Which never happened, so eventually, I moved on.

I think Kiki is doing the same. She's using you for company, to not be alone, to get attention, to feel wanted and desired. All the while she knows how you feel about her. It's manipulation, short and simple.




Again, I hope you're not mad at me for being so blunt and brutally honest. I didn't do it to be a jerk, but because I read your posts day after day, week after week, month after month and I see how you are hurting over her and I think it's just not fair and she's not treating you right. After so many months and so many times of hanging out, you know whether or not you want to be romantically involved with a person. For her to say she doesn't know, is simply mean. She's leading you on.

Like I said above, when you're in that 'state' you are in now(as I was years and years ago), you don't want to see that. But, as I pointed out, you have written yourself there's something "fishy" about the whole situation.

So if you're mad at me, I understand. I won't argue with you over what I wrote. I just hope, for your own sake, that you move on. (I'm sorry if that sounds belitteling; it's not meant to be.) But you should move on. Because you deserve better than this shit.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:13 pm 
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No, I'm not mad. Truth is, I've been hearing the "she's not interested in you" thing since day one in regards to Kiki, even when she was acting very interested. At this point though, I agree that everything you say is very justified. However, there are complications to it that keep me from not being totally ready to write her off, considering how strong my feelings for her are. For example, a lot of her suspicious excuses have come out to appear true in retrospect. A recurring one was that she was having a problem with her eyes. Well, now she wears glasses. Little things like that. A reason she often gives for not wanting a boyfriend right now is that the last one turned out to be such a big mistake, as was moving in with him so fast (she appears to be broken up with him still, and obviously, she is looking to move out). That's a perfectly understandable thing, that she might not want a boyfriend for a while after all that, and especially might not want to live with a guy. She doesn't know anyone though, and it's a matter of advertising for a roommate or transferring somewhere (like probably back home). When considering the question of whether or not she sees me in "that way", I can't forget how much she was into me the first couple of weeks we were dating, before her live-in ex got so pissed off about it that the whole, "I don't want a boyfriend for a while," thing started up. It was that night that he got violent with her. That's when she switched off. I can't forget how into "us" she was until that happened, and that's why I am still so tempted to see what would happen if we were living together and she maybe saw how much easier I was to live with than him.

Frankly, she seems to have an attitude of not being able to see anyone that way right now, not just me, I assume because of what she went through with the ex. Of course, I'm taking her word for that. I feel like I want the chance to change her mind. I love her so much that I'd put in the 6 months of a lease to find out if it's possible. You might be right, the odds are in favorite of your theory, but she always asked me to have faith in her, and I still want to try to until she ends up taking up with someone else. It's going to hurt me either way, and I love just being around her anyway. If it didn't happen, okay, I'd move on from there. Odds are though, she will decide against moving in with me anyway. But even if we move in together and all I get is cuddling, I'd enjoy the heck outta that until she started dating someone else. That would be torture for me, but I am sticking with her, I think, until she tells me to go away in no uncertain terms, or I see that she is dating someone else.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:23 pm 
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This might sound completely shocking for some people, but I actually agree with Goliath on this!

Here's the reason one. I have never dated and I am a happily single guy. However, I have a friend that prior to meeting his current wife used to be head over heels INFATUATED with this girl he met years ago. I say infatuated instead of "in love" because he put her on a very high pedestal and treated her like the perfect goddess.

What happened is that she clearly only liked him as a friend and just a friend, but he kept pushing it towards a relationship. He kept buying stuff for her, he kept going out "on dates" with her, he tried his whole damn best to make her his girlfriend. But it went nowhere. Hell this relationship was do dead that one time I accidentally walked on them in the room and she instead started a conversation with me and didn't even try to give me the hint that she wanted to be alone with him.

So this kept going on for years until he met another girl and it was the same cycle all over again. He forgot about the previous girl and was now infatuated with this singer of an Indie rock band. The same thing kept happening over and over again. He tried to make her like him, he tried very hard to take it one step further, but then it went nowhere.

Here is my theory as to why...

He was "in love" with the "image" rather than the person. He has a clear love of Asian women and thus the first girl he met was in the same area of personal interests. In other words, he was pursuing his "dream girl" in the two women I mentioned. One was a cute Asian, the other a hot Indie rock singer, common archetypes in the media (like anime, movies, comics and such). The guy was not in love with the person but with the archetype the two girls apparently represented.

Eventually, he snapped out of it and found a woman that was actually genuinely interested in him and they got married. And even then I find it kind of questionable since it still kind of seems like he married the "dream girl" and not the real woman.

In my honest opinion, people STOP trying to fall in love like in the movies or in a Disney story. True love can exist but it never happens instantly, hell we don't even realize it at first. Second, people really gotta stop trying to push hard and then make themselves lower than they really are. It's basically the whole FOREVER ALONE mentality that has been sweeping single men and women especially on the Internet. You are not any less of a man or woman because you don't have anyone to call your own. It's OK to desire friendship and companionship but it should never be taken to the extremes and make yourself look desperate, pathetic and stupid.

Also...

STOP PUTTING MEN AND WOMEN IN PEDESTALS

Really, I HATE this practice with a passion. This is where all the insecurities and fears begin. When you put yourself above anyone you will automatically start to feel like he/she is worth more than you. The truth is no one, no matter age, sex, sexual preference, looks, job etc., is ever above or below us. Once we do this we are giving them the right to mock and ridicule us, and we just accept it.

Just focus on working on your life and forget about everyone else. Let life take its course and if you find someone, bless you, if not keep walking and find something else.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:37 pm 
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Forgive me, Pap, if I feel your words would be more meaningful if you had at least done some dating. It's not that I totally disagree with everything you said, but it shows a lot of lack of understanding of my situation. Goliath's statement shows an in depth attention to the things I've been saying throughout this thread. Your post really doesn't reflect that very much. Being in love with someone and trying to have faith in them until they've actually been proven false is not putting them on a pedestal. And I've explained how I was in love with this girl for who she was before I even knew what she looked like or anything like that. And I do not believe she is a perfect person, nor have I ever said that. Perfect for me? Yes. All that lacks is her returned adoration. As I've said before, I'm just trying to see if that can develop over time, since I did see it in her once before, early on. That was injured badly by a bad experience with her ex, followed by my need to be out of town frequently for long periods of time. There are reasons she might be reluctant to put all her faith in me. I want to show her that she can and see if it increases her positive feelings for me before I give up completely. Believe me though, I've been thinking it over a lot. This is a situation I've put a lot of thought in since the first day. I will likely get hurt in the end, but I consider her worth the risk.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:46 pm 
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pap64 wrote:
This might sound completely shocking for some people, but I actually agree with Goliath on this!

Here's the reason one. I have never dated and I am a happily single guy.

I appreciate you agreeing with me (though I don't think that's so shocking -lol), so I hate to immediately ask this question: do you really believe that? Or are you only saying this to make slave2moonlight feel better? Or to make yourself feel better? I mean, people are not made to be alone, so it's no shame to say being single sucks. When I'm single, it sucks too. Not that everything loses it meaning and the world comes to an end --but still. If we're honest, we all want a significant other.

Still not trying to be a jerk or instigate a flamefest or something like that. Honestly. And if you don't want to answer, of course you don't have to. Because, I admit it, it was a kinda awful question...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:13 pm 
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Hopefully, the ladies will weigh in with some advice on this one. I'd be very interested in hearing their opinion of what I should do at this point. Not that I don't value the guys' opinions, but we can all get jaded by our own experiences, and right now I want to know a girl's point of view on if this is hopeless or not.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:06 pm 
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slave2moonlight wrote:
"But, I thought you didn't want to room with me if we weren't going to be dating."

My first thought when I read that: what a slap in the face...

slave2moonlight wrote:
And moving in together, of course, wouldn't seem like a good idea... but it also could be the only way she might come to a definite decision. I'm willing to spend 6 months living with her to see what happens. Odds are, she'll decide to just room with someone else, but I'll see. I mean, she must like me a bit if she does decide to room with me. Maybe that can grow into something.


I think that it could be awkward living together if you're romantically interested and she might not be. I can understand you're thinking that maybe in those 6 months, she would have fallen in love with you. And that's completely possible. But that's also a lot of pressure. Like, if she knows that you have those feelings for her, it might make her feel a little uncomfortable knowing that you may be seeing the situation differently than she does. But, yeah, surely she likes you enough to consider moving in with you.

At the same time, living together requires some kind of commitment, whether or not you're in a relationship with someone. Make sure that both of your names are on the lease. And I repeat, make sure that both of your names are on the lease. It's important anyway, but especially if she can be flip-floppy, you don't want to be left in the cold. And living together changes things. You'll see each other in a new light, both good and bad.

My advice would be to think about it more as a living situation versus a romantic situation at this point, at least the living together. Try and see Kiki as more of a person vs. the girl you're in love with (hey, this makes sense in my head!). Appreciate her for who she is, and try not to put pressure (whether directly or indirectly) on her with the romance thing (and I totally understand how hard that could be), and just focus on Kiki as someone you enjoy being around, for the time being anyway. Because if you move in together, there is the possibility (how big or how small, I don't know), of her really just wanting you as a roommate and a friend, and you wouldn't want to make it so awkward that it's unbearable to live together.

I don't envy your situation at all...on the one hand, for your sake, I don't want her stringing you along and not letting you know how she feels (but maybe she isn't sure how she feels, and that's normal and legitimate), but looking at it a different way, it may be good to let her feel you out, feel the situation out, so maybe eventually she will realize that she loves you, kind of like what you hinted at.

Goliath wrote:
She doesn't want to date you. She's not interested in you 'that way'. She doesn't think of you in a romantic way.


What makes me say that? Experience. When a woman is seeing you and hanging out with you for that long -for such a big amount of time- and nothing has ever happened, and she still 'doesn't know' whether or not she wants you... then she doesn't want you. If she did, she would've make her move by now, or at least she would've told you she wants to. But after such a long period of time, a woman knows whether or not she wants to be with a man. If she says she doesn't know 'yet', or that she has to 'think about it' some more, she's lying.


So not always true. I know from experience. Sometimes initially you see someone as a friend. Plain and simple. When Bobby and I first became friends (we were friends before we dated), I saw him as a big brother kind of figure. I had a short window or two of being single, and I mean, he wanted to date me, and he made it clear. But I saw him as a brother figure. It was only later on that I agreed to go on a date with him, and it was great. But I had always enjoyed talking with him and whatnot. That had been a crazy time period for me (I was a few months out of high school when we started dating), and so I think sometimes it takes just living and going through things to really appreciate a person and develop feelings for them.

Goliath wrote:
It was you who just wrote how it doesn't make sense how, on the one hand, she says she has bonding/anxiety issues, yet she moved in with her boyfriend in a heartbeat.


She very well may still have bonding/anxiety issues, but maybe she wanted to break out of her shell and give living with the guy a try. First time for everything. And maybe it didn't work so well for her, and maybe she's taking it slow with Nathan now because of that experience.

Goliath wrote:
It was you who pointed out how it doesn't make sense that she considers advertising for a roommate, while she said to you she's not comfortable around strangers.


Or she's more comfortable around girls and is seeking a female roommate...?

Goliath wrote:
I think Kiki is doing the same. She's using you for company, to not be alone, to get attention, to feel wanted and desired. All the while she knows how you feel about her. It's manipulation, short and simple.


I'm sure that she likes Nathan. Really, would you spend your free time hanging out with someone you didn't like? We're not sure in what capacity she likes him, but she enjoys spending time with him. Maybe she doesn't even know how she feels about him, but she knows that she likes being with him. Maybe she's feeling him out, wanting to get more and more comfortable around him. Or maybe she's scared of her feelings, scared of falling in love.

Goliath wrote:
After so many months and so many times of hanging out, you know whether or not you want to be romantically involved with a person. For her to say she doesn't know, is simply mean. She's leading you on.


Again, not always true. As I just said above. She may be torn. She may not see him in a romantic light, but she likes being with him. Or she does like him but doesn't want to get hurt so she's taking it slow. But you don't always know how you feel. Sometimes you're on the fence.

Back in the day, I was (and still am) really good friends with a guy. We'll call him J. We were really good friends, and we hung out a lot and talked on the phone. I liked him, we were friends. I liked spending time with him. But, sometimes I thought, you know, he's a great guy, I wonder what we'd be like as more than friends. But we didn't do anything about it. And I wrote him a note once and I think it kind of said that. But we never dated. And I'm fine with that (I mean, even a few months ago, 10 years later, when I was single I was wondering if he and I would get together). But sometimes you're not sure, especially if you're friends with someone first.

slave2moonlight wrote:
That's a perfectly understandable thing, that she might not want a boyfriend for a while after all that, and especially might not want to live with a guy.


Both of those are extremely, extremely plausible. And that doesn't mean that she'll always feel that way, obviously.

slave2moonlight wrote:
When considering the question of whether or not she sees me in "that way", I can't forget how much she was into me the first couple of weeks we were dating, before her live-in ex got so pissed off about it that the whole, "I don't want a boyfriend for a while," thing started up. It was that night that he got violent with her. That's when she switched off. I can't forget how into "us" she was until that happened, and that's why I am still so tempted to see what would happen if we were living together and she maybe saw how much easier I was to live with than him.


That's interesting. Yeah, he definitely could have had an affect on her; whatever he said about 'another guy' may have psychologically impaired her, made her feel unworthy or something, of another man's affection.

I'd say, be patient with her, don't put pressure on her. Eventually you may, because you don't want to be lead on. But if there's a way for you to be supportive and just be there for her, as a friend or a boyfriend, or whatever she needs, at least for a while to see how things go, that might be ideal. It may not always be easy, but it may be what Kiki needs.

slave2moonlight wrote:
she always asked me to have faith in her, and I still want to try to until she ends up taking up with someone else.


If she's asking you to have faith in her, then I don't think she'd be messing with you for no reason. I think that she may just need to time to sort out her feelings.

slave2moonlight wrote:
But even if we move in together and all I get is cuddling, I'd enjoy the heck outta that until she started dating someone else. That would be torture for me, but I am sticking with her, I think, until she tells me to go away in no uncertain terms, or I see that she is dating someone else.


Just because you would be roommates doesn't mean that the cuddling would just start again. It might, but it doesn't mean it necessarily would. And it's also a possibility that if you're not dating, she could date someone else. I'm thinking that moving in together may not be the best bet unless you've been dating for at least a few months. I don't want to see you get hurt. It's like, being in a relationship would help seal the deal.

But relationships end. Believe me. I've been in so many, and they end for different reasons. Sometimes you just don't like the other person enough to be in a relationship with them, sometimes it's different values, sometimes they don't treat you right... But if you were in a relationship, maybe intially it'd hurt less living together than if you're not dating and living together, and then she starts dating someone else. And you'd have a lease, so it wouldn't be easy to just move out. Maybe don't rush into things.

pap64 wrote:
What happened is that she clearly only liked him as a friend and just a friend, but he kept pushing it towards a relationship. He kept buying stuff for her, he kept going out "on dates" with her, he tried his whole damn best to make her his girlfriend. But it went nowhere.


You can't buy love. If a guy friend kept buying me stuff, I'd feel awkward. Hell, there was a former co-worker of mine who always made it clear that he liked me, and he'd always ask me out, even when he knew I wasn't single, and after a while, it turns you off (I didn't like him in that way anyway, but it was a bigger turn-off). Initially it can be flattering, but after a while, it can get annoying.

pap64 wrote:
He tried to make her like him


She either likes him or she doesn't. There's not "trying" to make her like him. I mean, yes, sometimes if you get to know a person, you'll like them more, but you can't force a girl to like you or love you. It's her call. It's her feelings. Getting to know you might make her like you more or love you, but you can't force it on the girl. Let her get her feelings in order on her time schedule.

pap64 wrote:
True love can exist but it never happens instantly, hell we don't even realize it at first.


Super true. I mean, love happens at different rates. Sometimes after a first date, you know you're in love with the person. Sometimes you aren't sure if it's love or just like.

pap64 wrote:
Second, people really gotta stop trying to push hard and then make themselves lower than they really are. It's basically the whole FOREVER ALONE mentality that has been sweeping single men and women especially on the Internet. You are not any less of a man or woman because you don't have anyone to call your own. It's OK to desire friendship and companionship but it should never be taken to the extremes and make yourself look desperate, pathetic and stupid.


You can't force love. At the same time, I understand the wanting of companionship. I'm almost never single. I think I'll be okay being single, but then when I am, it's like, ahhhhh! What to do with myself!!! It's not even always about finding love. Not for me, anyway. Just the companionship, sometime to spend time with so you get out of the house. But you have to realize that you can't force love. If you like spending time with the person, then spend time with them. Take it for what it is. Don't pressure the person for more than what they're comfortable with. Eventually if you love the person and you've given them a lot of time and they still haven't come around, then maybe don't waste your time anymore, because you'll just end up hurt.

slave2moonlight wrote:
I want to show her that she can and see if it increases her positive feelings for me before I give up completely.


You seem to have an amazing attitude towards your situation, Nathan, and I applaud you for it. You're being mature about it. As I said, just let her know that you're there for her without pressuring her. Hopefully she'll really appreciate you for it. :)

Goliath wrote:
If we're honest, we all want a significant other.


Not to discourage Pap and what he said, because everyone is different, but there is definitely something to be said for companionship, physical touch, little inside jokes, side glances, I mean, all that comes with being in a good relationship, but having someone understand you and accept you and want to be there when you're going through hard things--there's nothing like it in the world. I mean, it's a best friend plus all the other "benefits". It's a beautiful thing.

And even when relationships don't work out, I'm all for learning from your experiences.

slave2moonlight wrote:
what I should do at this point...if this is hopeless or not


It's absolutely not hopeless. Bottom line, be there for Kiki, be a support system for her, be a friend. Maybe that's what she really needs right now. As you said, maybe she doesn't want to jump into another relationship. Maybe she's thrilled to have a good friend like you and is scared to take it to the next level. So, be patient and supportive. Don't pressure her, about living together or a relationship. Not yet.

And if she ends up dating someone else, it may be time to move on. But don't give up yet. You can't help how you feel, so don't give up on your feelings yet.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:21 am 
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Just to make it clear, not saying that love and relationships is a bad thing. An old boss of mine used to say that no one should live life completely alone and that we should allow ourselves to love and be loved in return. What I am saying is that society just has this tendency of pushing the idea of love, sex and relationships as primal in someone's life while presenting the idea in the worst manner possible.

In 2010, I attended a seminal about love and relationship and how society perceives it. The speaker said that the problem is that most people want to dive into a relationship right away using the wrong ideas. He suggested that people should make friends first, then let it evolve from there. I can attest from testimonies from actual couples that that's how it started for them: they met, they found something of interest and it evolved from there. The speaker said that there will be a point in the friendship where feelings will evolve, and that's when you begin to wonder if its love. What he suggested is to talk it out and see if it evolves from there. Many fear this because they want to stay friends even if the emotions are strong but only applies to one person in the party. But really, it should be talked about.

It's like it has been said already, you can't buy love, you can't force love and you can't rush it. It has to happen naturally and then let it evolve from there until its conclusion.

That's why I think Goliath and I are saying: that people are going about it the wrong way. They think they live in a perfect anime or fairy tale where relationships happen almost instantly and are always perfect. When they realize it doesn't work that way they are the ones being angry and bitter, hating themselves and abusing the FOREVER ALONE meme.

Again, not saying that love isn't a bad thing. Just that there are many ways to address it and to experience love in many forms, not just between a man and a woman.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:20 am 
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slave2moonlight wrote:
Hopefully, the ladies will weigh in with some advice on this one.

I think the first thing you need to do is ask yourself how much longer you can handle waiting. I know at some point you said you'd be willing to wait out six months together in an apartment in hopes that she might fall for you, but there's the very real possibility that she won't. And if she doesn't, where does that leave you? The longer you wait, the more painful a negative answer is going to be. And think of how much more difficult it would be if she found someone else to date while you were living together!

It's quite possible that Goliath is right in that she's just enjoying your attention. Or maybe Amy's right in that she's confused/scared and doesn't know what she wants. Regardless, I think she's being wishy-washy while weighing her options. I do understand that she has anxiety issues (mine have been pretty severe at times) and that she's got a history with an abusive relationship that she rushed into (I can definitely relate to that as well), but I don't think it's fair of her to lead you on with so many mixed messages.

I'd suggest only continuing to spend time with her if you'll be perfectly satisfied with remaining in the friend zone. That may be all she wants (or needs) right now, and it's possible that a platonic relationship is all she'll ever be able to offer you. Who knows what her reasons are for acting the way she currently does. You can take what she says at face value, or you can choose to read between the lines (like I typically do these days). I still believe a lot of this has to do with where you are with your life right now (once again, no offense) with trying to find stable work and a place of your own. Because there's much more to making a relationship work than the warm, fuzzy feelings of being in love, just as there's more to being in love than physical attraction and having a lot in common.

I also believe it's possible that you're putting her on a pedestal, as you keep insisting on how perfect she is for you (aside from her lack of expressing that she returns your feelings). You've been single a long time, and have had that time to spend dreaming and wishing for the perfect girl. And now that you believe you've found her, you're afraid to let go. However, she may not be all the things you think she is, and it's not likely you'll figure out all of the important things until you move in together. Trust me on that one, I dated my ex for over a year before we moved in together, and didn't get even so much as a glimpse of what he was really like until that happened. I get the impression that you've spent way too much time and energy fantasizing about potential relationships. Nothing wrong with hoping, wishing, and fantasizing, but the extreme level of detail you offer about specific aspects of girls you're attracted to reminds me of the main character in Shallow Hal. Er, don't take that the wrong way (not sure if you've seen the movie), but while being a very kind person overall, he was extremely fixated on certain aspects of potential dates because of the ideals that had been planted his head.

As for Pap stating that he's perfectly happy being single and alone, I totally believe that. Rey was the same way for years, wasn't looking for anyone at all . . . and that only changed when he stumbled across the right person. As Amy says, there's definitely something to be said for the little nuances that exist when you're more than friends, but it's entirely possible to be happy on your own and single; I've been in both places. This may sound odd, but Rey and I don't actually have a lot in common, yet I think that's why he and I work so well together. I always assumed that my soul-mate (if you believe in that kind of thing) would definitely have to have x, y, and z for their interests and personality, and given that I had more in common on the surface with my ex than I do with Rey, I've kind of thrown that philosophy out the window. I can also say that it's better to be alone than wish you were, but I guess that's a different story altogether . . .

Anyway, are you willing to be a selfless friend for her even if she can offer you nothing more than friendship in return? Do you even feel she's honestly being a good friend to you right now with all these mixed messages/cancellations/excuses? And what kind of future do you plan on having if either of you continue to struggle with paying for a place to live? That's just some food for thought; I'm not making a judgment call with any of that that, as these are issues that only you can figure out. It's ultimately up to you to decide if a potential relationship with her is worth continuing to invest your heart into. Personally speaking, I still believe that you really need to concentrate on yourself first and foremost by getting yourself into a more stable situation before taking on any potential relationships. I do hope you figure out something soon; I know from experience that it can be agony to hang in limbo like that.

Best of luck to you.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:01 am 
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Goliath wrote:
pap64 wrote:
This might sound completely shocking for some people, but I actually agree with Goliath on this!

Here's the reason one. I have never dated and I am a happily single guy.

I appreciate you agreeing with me (though I don't think that's so shocking -lol), so I hate to immediately ask this question: do you really believe that? Or are you only saying this to make slave2moonlight feel better? Or to make yourself feel better? I mean, people are not made to be alone, so it's no shame to say being single sucks. When I'm single, it sucks too. Not that everything loses it meaning and the world comes to an end --but still. If we're honest, we all want a significant other.

Still not trying to be a jerk or instigate a flamefest or something like that. Honestly. And if you don't want to answer, of course you don't have to. Because, I admit it, it was a kinda awful question...


You can choose not to believe me if you want to, but I am very happy being single. The reason why is that I substituted the search for a significant other with a search for a career, a higher level of knowledge and trying to get more out of life beyond a relationship.

I know that sounds crazy to believe, but I am 29 years old and have not dated anyone nor made the effort to seek out anyone in particular. And trust me when I say that people have questioned it and made assumptions. Because I tend to be somewhat flirty with women or treat them nicely, they believe that I am seeking a relationship.

But just because I didn't let the pursuit of a relationship be my top priority in life it means that I will let it completely out of my life. If the time comes where I fall in love I'll just roll with it and see where it leads me. It could be my lot in life, who knows. But until now all I care about is having more personal growth, and decided to take a different route in life than most people.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:20 am 
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slave2moonlight wrote:
Hopefully, the ladies will weigh in with some advice on this one.


Here's a third woman weighing in. :wink:

It seems to me like this girl might be timid. Like enigmawing, I can understand why she might be anxious (I have never had an abusive boyfriend, but my Mother is a counsellor who deals with anxiety) and I can understand why she might not want to hurt you by admitting that her feelings for you are only platonic.

I think you could definitely room with Kiki, but as blackcauldron has said, you should have both your names on the lease. I would also scond Amy's advice on looking at it as a living situation as opposed to a romantic situation. You don't want to accidently put pressure on Kiki (I'm not saying you have, just that this could easily happen if you were living together) and you want to make it easier for yourself if a romantic relationship with her just doesn't happen. This might be hard, but it will allow for a more natural development.

I wish you all the best. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:58 pm 
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pap64 wrote:
You can choose not to believe me if you want to, but I am very happy being single. The reason why is that I substituted the search for a significant other with a search for a career, a higher level of knowledge and trying to get more out of life beyond a relationship.

I believe all that, but a person can walk and chew gum at the same time, can't he? Not saying you should be busy with getting into a relationship, but I think on some level, everbody is looking for that, even when they deny it.

pap64 wrote:
What I am saying is that society just has this tendency of pushing the idea of love, sex and relationships as primal in someone's life while presenting the idea in the worst manner possible.

Well, love, sex and relationships ARE primal in people's lives. It's not an idea society forces upon us; it's a biological urge to find a mate and procreate to keep the species going (nature couldn't have foreseen contraception of course). We may wear clothes and walk straight up, but essentially we're still 'animals'; we're wired that way.

pap64 wrote:
That's why I think Goliath and I are saying: that people are going about it the wrong way. They think they live in a perfect anime or fairy tale where relationships happen almost instantly and are always perfect. When they realize it doesn't work that way they are the ones being angry and bitter, hating themselves and abusing the FOREVER ALONE meme.

Er... I didn't say that at all; you said that.

I said I think Kiki is leading slave2moonlight on. Yes, she likes to spend time with him, I didn't deny that, Amy. Obviously she does. But she knows he likes her and everytime she keeps saying she doesn't know if she likes him. If you *really* like somebody, you know. If you have to reason about it; ponder about it; are on the fence about it; play the pros and cons game, you're not in love with that person.

Amy, what I think you said about moving in together was very good. Imagine you moving in with her and she starts seeing someone else. Imagine she takes him home. He sleeps over at your place. You may end up lying in bed wide awake because all you hear from the room mext to you, is her and him... you know... ?

Okay, reading back I realize this is pretty blunt. I thought about erasing it, but I won't, because I feel this is the most honest thing I've got to say about it. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide what to do with it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Here's the deal: I am very well aware that there is indeed a physiological and emotional need to seek companionship, whether through friends or through a sexual mate. I also get that you can have this really developed life and still seek a relationship or be in one. Finally, I also understand why for some this is a big deal for the reasons you stated.

All I am saying is that even if there is the need for it it shouldn't be the sole driving factor behind life, that people shouldn't convince themselves that they are worthless as human beings because they are still virgins or can't find a significant other. When I say that society pushes the idea a lot it's because at times it tends to mock those that either can't be in a successful relationship or have not had sex yet, which is what lead people, especially insecure young men and women, to have this unrealistic ideas about what love should be and drives them to make mistakes in the worst manner possible.

In my case, I decided to take it slowly and focus on everything else. Like I already said, I am not eliminating the idea of a relationship out completely because life can sometimes be so vast and unsuspecting that right now I could walk out, talk to a girl and suddenly find myself engaged to be married in a couple of years. I will enjoy my life as best as possible right now and pursue other life endeavors.

If you still think this is me being in denial, fine. I'm not saying this is the life that EVERYONE should lead since life is defined by how we view and do things. All I am saying is that you also shouldn't let it get to you in the worst way possible and thus develop the wrong ideas about love, sex and relationships.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Well, today, I had to have my blood drawn from both my arms over the course of 5 hours (1 for each hour). This was for a glucose test. I guess it's not so bad if you like having needles inserted in you every hour or so.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:41 pm 
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I'm sorry you had to go through that, PixarFan. :(


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:45 pm 
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But do you like having needles inserted in you every hour or so? I kid, I kid. Are you sore after that? Rest up. I hope that your test either doesn't show anything abnormal, or if it does, that they can easily help you out!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:07 pm 
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I just wanted to pop in here and say that I totally agree with everything you've said about relationships, pap64. I've never dated either, nor have I ever had a desire to do so. I like being single!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Feb. was a rough month at the end there. Twice I woke up with the over-heated/chills and upset stomach which has really thrown off my sleep. I've been working through to try and find out what's causing it. So far it's looking possible that my diet is doing it, so I'm experimenting a little to see if excluding certain things will result in no stomach aches while still eating/drinking as I normally would.

Aside from that, I went to the Dr. and he said my stress levels are really, really high. So my options are a tad wide, he offered me a medication at the lowest possible dose. That would be ok, but I don't want to be dependant on a pill so instead I'm going to start seeing a therapist in the hopes that talking things out can help.


To slightly chime in on the Relationships posts, I'm single and I hate it. Do I want a relationship to be the sole driving force behind my life? No. I'm great at school, pretty much top grades time after time. My photography is praised by friends and family. However, just because I feel successful in my school and hobbies, that doesn't change the fact that I'm lonely. Sure I have friends and family, but they can only provide so much companionship. A significant other, or whatever you wish to call a boy/girlfriend, is able to provide a companionship on a slightly different level in my mind. And no, I don't mean just a sexual level, but one of just intimacy and romance in general.

:) Gonna stop rambling now since I don't really know how to best word it.

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