Dr Frankenollie wrote:
Well...you're right, but I prefer the principle and method by which Rose was written, yet her obnoxious behaviour in Tooth and Claw, The Idiot's Lantern, et al, did make her more annoying than Clara at least. I'm not sure whether I dislike S2Rose more than Amy, however. She was an amalgamation of everything I hate about Moffat's characters, as well as a piece of objectification, as well as someone whose entire storylines focus on stereotypes of being a woman, as well as generally just a conceited, selfish woman. I suppose companions must have somewhat conceited traits so as to be courageous and curious enough to fulfil their role, but there are several better-written examples than Amy, Clara and Rose when it comes to this job. Donna, Sarah Jane, Leela, Tegan at times...
I cannot tell you how much I hate S2 Rose. I guess it's after liking her some much in S1. There always was a little sense of... I wouldn't say selfishness, but perhaps entitlement?... about her. Look at Boom Town for the best examples. But she was (IMO - I know some feel different) never unlikable. In fact, as I stated before, the whole sequence of being sent back home and forcing the TARDIS to take her back to the Doctor in The Parting of the Ways is, perhaps for me, the definitive Davies take on Who. And I liked how Rose "rose" to the occasion without the Doctor in The Christmas Invasion too.
I think apart from that, the only time I liked Rose in S2 was the end of The Satan Pit with the nail gun in the shuttle. Probably her worst moment was the end of Love & Monsters. "No one upsets my mum!" - Not only was this a cliché of the worst type, but look at yourself, YOU upset you mum so much more than Elton did. I wouldn't mind if Rose learned something, but she apparently didn't.
It's a shame with such a wonderful episode - really, listen to Elton's narration... most of it just flows over you, or the interaction of people in LINDA... or of course Jackie - that the Doctor and Rose's bit at the end seem so clichéd.
(One could argue that's the point - Elton, the "unreliable narrator" remembers it that way, but I don't think that's the case. His earlier unreliable "Scooby Doo" memories are memories of a random encounter shrouded in expectation and fantasy. The final confrontation is - for Elton - really horrific. His friends' faces are shouting and screaming from inside an alien! I'm pretty sure his reality had kicked in.)
Of course this is all a roundabout way of saying the best thing about Rose turned out to be the creation of Jackie. Jackie was obviously Russell's favourite character to write for I would say.
Nettie wrote:I'm not sure I agree with you about Day of the Moon's ending though. In certain respects it was a classic case of turning the enemies weapon/power/forces against them. It is after all what the Doctor has done often. Sometimes with due warning, sometimes... not so due. But the scene in the Silent's timeship with River shooting the Silents is... wrong for the character I agree.
I'd be more forgiving if his actions had been addressed later, and perhaps shown to have contributed (in some kind of timey-wimey manner) to the Silence and Kovarian's actions later. If Moffat had written it so that the Doctor's behaviour led to the kidnapping of Melody, that would have been good. However, it's not explicitly addressed, and is wholly shown to be a glorious, cheerful victory at the end of the episode. I enjoyed it upon first viewing, but looking back, it's unpleasant. It's not merely a matter of turning the enemy's weaponry against themselves: the Doctor uses post-hypnotic suggestion to turn every human from 1969 onwards into a murderer, in a sweeping act of genocide that not only kills the active members of the species, but also every single member of the species in the future. It's ensuring that even the descendants of the bad guys are killed by human descendants, merely because of the relation.
Although of course, there were Silents in the present day - in the White House and one watches the Doctor's "assasination". Given it was based around "a fixed point in time" it seems certain some Silent's survived - my take on it was a massive set-back to the order, not genocide. I know the Silence (obviously the order as well as the Silents themselves - how else would they be able to track and recapture River Song) had time travel - but from a storytelling point of view I think it would be too confusing to have the destruction of the Silents be the cause of them kidnapping Amy etc, when they had already done it (off screen, between seasons too to add to the confusion).
That said, I've been thinking about the Order of Silence some more after watching most of the "arc" episodes. It's clear that there main motivation was to stop the Great Intelligence destroying time - The Name of the Doctor already shows us what that would be like. So by killing him away from Trenzalore, the tomb will never be created there, and history will be saved. So they are doing what is necessary to save everyone (and presumably they are targeting the Eleventh Doctor* because they want to preserve the majority of the time-line with The Doctor's actions in it). That also could explain how they see the Doctor as an enemy/threat. He the cause of their prophesied "end times" (every good Religion needs a prophesy and an "anti-christ" like figure to instigate it).
Moffat takes all the Doctor being God-like, both on screen and in print, and turns it on it's head. He makes the Doctor an unknowing Anti-Christ. Again, conceptually it's a stunning concept, typically Moffat. However, on paper and in practice, it's too complicated. Far to complicated. If the Doctor dies, there is no tomb on Trenzalore, so... no Order of Silence? If he dies elsewhere, wouldn't there still be a fracture in the web of time...? (Actually, perhaps not, the Silence think the body was burned).
Anyhow, I'm still of the opinion the Silence storyline isn't over. The Impossible Astronaut showed some Silents survived to the present day, I guess they found a way to deprogram the suggestion after taking heavy losses. I'm sure they will observed the Doctor on Earth at some point and realise he's not dead. The time travel thing about the Silence/Silents continues to bother me. I'm sure there's something we've still to discover. Omega? - Again, the symbols on the Cleric's uniforms, the fact the Silence feel that they can successfully manipulate time and the time-ship from The Lodger which is
so TARDIS like can't help but point me to Omega. (Do you think River was also intended to be the pilot of the time-ship?)
If Omega is indeed the instigator of the Silence, I can see him convincing some races to join him. Others, such as Madame Kovarian seem to be enjoying "saving everyone" far too much, and actively seeks to humiliate him. My hunch is she has a personal reason to hate the Doctor.
Alas, it seems with only the Anniversary Special and the Christmas Special, this won't be tied-up even if it was intended to be on Matt's departure (in effect, his proper death). No unseen manipulator, no Kovarian back story and (perhaps after The Name of the Doctor) no more River Song.
Oooh, good thinking. That's an issue with Moffat (I apologise about the perpetual criticism of him, but I can't help it). Although both Davies and Moffat wrote stories with plenty of plot holes, Davies' focus on characters and emotions made it irrelevant, whereas plot machinations are often Moffat's focus, meaning plot holes are more damaging and important.
Well, we've always had "plot holes" and continuity breaking. Part of that is what brings fandom together. I just think since the return of Doctor Who some people concentrate on the flaws, rather than the story. Moffet's Weeping Angels work in Blink, mainly because of that story's tone. The tone is just as much down to writing as emotion. So those questions I brought up, really don't hit you on first, second, third... probably not "ever" viewing.
Sadly though, I don't think the Angels have been used well since Blink, and tricks with the Angels since just highlight their flaws. If Blink was a perfectly knitted scarf, The Time of Angels/Flash and Stone and The Angels Take Manhattan are the rusty nails Blink gets tangled up in and starts to unravel hence...
Nettie wrote:The most popular Nu-Who monsters in the Weeping Angels are too fantastical to me. Yes, I'll say it again, I find the Kandyman, a robot made of candy who bitches in his kitchen all day (in between pressing buttons to execute people because they aren't happy) and get his feet stuck to the floor - twice - with lemonade less fantastical than the Weeping Angels. God, GallifreyBase will hate me.
Crikey, I love the Kandyman, and you've made me love him even more. It would be the best twist ever if he turned out to be the antagonist of the 50th Anniversary Special. The only bigger surprises would be the Abzorbaloff, Susan or the giant green penis monster in "The Creature From the Pit." And none of them would be as hilarious as the Kandyman speaking.
Of course again, one of the some of the irony of the Kandyman is... him himself is far from happy. There's so much nuance in the script, and while McCoy talked enemies to defeat a few times, this is the only time it works. It's a perfect ending. I personally think The Happiness Patrol is a masterpiece - imagine that made with current Who values. A real "dark fairytale" Moffet seems to keen to write.
I'd really love the Anniversary special "big bad" to be The Rani in a simultaneous "F@@K you" and embracing of the fans. Added bonus to Moffet if Carla from Coronation Street ends up playing her for the double FU/shout-out.
And in other Who news:
http://www.hypable.com/2013/07/05/russe ... dventures/
^ Luke Smith would have come out as gay if SJA had continued. Oh, I'm feeling sad about the lost potential again. In another universe, perhaps we could have had ten more years of Elisabeth Sladen being marvellous, Jo Jones being dopey, the Brigadier being the Brigadier, appearances from other past companions such as Ace (whose appearance had been planned before Sladen's death) and a gay teenage relationship on the CBBC.
I guess this is from the Green Death Special Edition, not some re-release of the SJA? I say that because I'm pretty sure some commentaries for SJA were recorded (but never used - how odd, we're repeatedly told the commentaries are the most expensive extras on the classic releases).
* Yes, so the Hurt Doctor means this is potentially the Twelfth Doctor. I'm hating this more an more. All the merchandise calls Matt the Eleventh. His opening story was The Eleventh Hour. His football shirt in The Lodger was 11 and his nightmare room in The God Complex was number 11. Still, I'm up for most of Moffet's endings. Hopefully he can pull a rabbit out of the hat and not make this matter.