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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:23 am 
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So I was listening to American beauty while I was working on some stuff and realized that it is still one of my favourite films even though Kevin Spacey’s behaviour is appalling and I hope he gets what he deserves for what’s he’s done throughout the years to many young men. Nevertheless, his performance in the film is impeccable and deserves all the praise that he got for it. What’s funny to me is that the film deals with a man who lusts for a sixteen year old girl only to wake up in time to realize that she’s an innocent child. However, Kevin Spacey couldn’t bother to be inspired by that same character that earned him an Oscar...

Also I realized that Shakespeare in love, a Harvey Weinstein film, is not available on Disney plus and I wonder if it ever will be, even thought it won best actress, best supporting actress and best picture at the oscars. All of this made me realize that it would be a nice thing to discuss on here. Are you capable on enjoying a film and separate the character from the actor who's portraying them even when that actor/director was involved in serious criminal activities ?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:30 am 
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Shakespeare in Love is not on Disney Plus because Disney doesn't own the film. It belongs to Lionsgate now.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:38 am 
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Ok, well thanks for the update even though it's not the main point of the topic.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:58 am 
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(re: Shakespeare in Love- isn't it Rated R? So if Disney did own it, it'd probably be on Hulu.)

Using Kevin Spacey like you: I'm not going to stop watching A Bug's Life just because he voices Hopper. It puts a bad taste in my mouth when he first comes on screen, but then I'm into the film... Since I have Disney+, I want to catch up on movies I haven't seen yet. I want to watch The Lone Ranger to see what the bad hype was years ago, but I know that Armie Hammer has been in the news for unwholesome things...being that that's live action, maybe I'll be more put-off watching him than I am watching Hopper in ABL... I've been wanting to see Magic Camp for years, so I'll still watch it, even though I know that Jeffrey Tambor was in the news for sexual harassment.

I think because so many people are involved in the making of a film, it is still okay to enjoy a film even though a problematic person is involved.

What about music? I'm not a big Chris Brown or R. Kelly fan, but when a song I like that one of them made comes on, I do think "Gross," but I still sing along.

So I guess, I feel like as long as the problematic behavior is acknowledged, it's okay to enjoy a piece of entertainment from a troublesome entertainer. That's not to say that every time someone watches or listens to that particular person they are thinking What a gross person, but I feel that most people do think about it and it taints the entertainment experience a bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:29 am 
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Same. I also love Rosemary's baby even though it was directed by Polanski...As for Disney Plus, there is a whole section for films with adult content.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:40 am 
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^ Are you talking about Disney+ with Star? I know last summer there were rumors that D+ would include an adult section, but besides Star, I didn't know that that had happened...I don't think in the US we've gotten R-rated movies on D+...? (Sorry to keep derailing the convo to this topic...!)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:50 am 
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American Beauty is still one of my favorite live-action films, easily. I can separate what's onscreen from the real person, but whether or not to give money via buying products is more tricky. IDK, it's really a hard line, since I'm often not aware of which directors or studios made so many films. I imagine many of us have probably bought the Revival Disney films which sadly put money in John Lasseter's pocket, I'm sure. Then there's James Woods in Hercules, for example, or Mel Gibson in Pocahontas, etc. etc.

I guess for me, in general with MeToo stories, I take them on a case-by-case thing. Sometimes I believe them and sometimes I think they're likely lies; there is a political incentive for smearing actors or Hollywood in general, after all, since so many actors espouse politics or give money to politicians. If you don't think people will lie, look up the story about someone getting arrested for trying to pay off a woman to lie about Dr. Fauci last year. I do believe the majority of the stories about Weinstein--and Spacey, too, unfortunately (I don't think the actor from Rent would lie, imo), which is a real shame because I always liked Spacey. I don't believe some of the stuff around Armie Hammer though.... That sounds like something off a Russian bot farm, since they've been trying to smear Hollywood, Democrats, etc. as this kind of cabal of cannibals and pedophiles for the past six years now. I'm sure there are sick people in every profession though. But Hammer comes from a rich family that probably has donated to liberal causes for years and even starred in the film about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, so he may have had a bull's-eye on him for that reason. I only read the first couple of stories that came out though, I haven't delved into the stuff that came later. If the early stuff was the "worst" of it, I imagine it'll blow over eventually, especially since he was never well-known enough for people to care about the story anyway. That's probably why the stories were OTT in his case, because most people would hear the name Armie Hammer and go "Who?" But if you add cannibal to the headline, you'll get people reading even if they don't know who the person is.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:15 am 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
^ Are you talking about Disney+ with Star? I know last summer there were rumors that D+ would include an adult section, but besides Star, I didn't know that that had happened...I don't think in the US we've gotten R-rated movies on D+...? (Sorry to keep derailing the convo to this topic...!)


I can only speak for Canada as here Starz does have many horror films and other things for adult along with Disney plus but maybe it's only for Canada?

Disney's Divinity wrote:
American Beauty is still one of my favorite live-action films, easily. I can separate what's onscreen from the real person, but whether or not to give money via buying products is more tricky. IDK, it's really a hard line, since I'm often not aware of which directors or studios made so many films. I imagine many of us have probably bought the Revival Disney films which sadly put money in John Lasseter's pocket, I'm sure. Then there's James Woods in Hercules, for example, or Mel Gibson in Pocahontas, etc. etc.

I guess for me, in general with MeToo stories, I take them on a case-by-case thing. Sometimes I believe them and sometimes I think they're likely lies; there is a political incentive for smearing actors or Hollywood in general, after all, since so many actors espouse politics or give money to politicians. If you don't think people will lie, look up the story about someone getting arrested for trying to pay off a woman to lie about Dr. Fauci last year. I do believe the majority of the stories about Weinstein--and Spacey, too, unfortunately (I don't think the actor from Rent would lie, imo), which is a real shame because I always liked Spacey. I don't believe some of the stuff around Armie Hammer though.... That sounds like something off a Russian bot farm, since they've been trying to smear Hollywood, Democrats, etc. as this kind of cabal of cannibals and pedophiles for the past six years now. I'm sure there are sick people in every profession though. But Hammer comes from a rich family that probably has donated to liberal causes for years and even starred in the film about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, so he may have had a bull's-eye on him for that reason. I only read the first couple of stories that came out though, I haven't delved into the stuff that came later. If the early stuff was the "worst" of it, I imagine it'll blow over eventually, especially since he was never well-known enough for people to care about the story anyway. That's probably why the stories were OTT in his case, because most people would hear the name Armie Hammer and go "Who?" But if you add cannibal to the headline, you'll get people reading even if they don't know who the person is.


Speaking of Mel Gibson, I do like many of his performances and I do love The Passion Of Christ.

As for Armie Hammer, I read a great article about his family and his own demons. I only wanted to read a little bit but the article as so fascinating that I had to read the entire thing.
To be honest, I never liked him (wether the allegations are true or not), there was always something off for me whenever I'd watch his films, he always came off as too perfect (also in his interviews). I mean, gorgeous looks, body, charming, humble, always making fun of himself, devoted father and husband and an heir to a very influential family. Now, maybe he's not a cannibal (never thought I'd write this :/) but he sure wasn't faithful to his wife and loves doing drugs. That's none of my business anyway but as I mentioned, I never liked any of his work aside from his performance in The Social Network. However, he always creeped me out in both Mirror Mirror and Call Me By Your Name.

The Vanity Fair Article:
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/20 ... d-betrayal

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Last edited by Redadoodles on Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:40 am 
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I read one really long article a couple weeks ago about Armie Hammer, and it sounded like...if not sexual assault, then he put some people in some compromising positions. (Okay, I was typing as I read the posts, and the article that Redadoodles posted is the one that I read, too.) John Lasseter touched [no pun was intended] so many films, and while the man is absolutely troublesome, I'm not going to stop watching Toy Story or Cars, etc...so many other people had their hands in those films...with him, we already loved the films, and then learned that he's a creeper. So I think not watching his Skydance films is more likely than us giving up the Disney/Pixar films that he worked on.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:43 am 
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Isn't the most serious allegation the rape he supposedly committed? And even if that's not true, I wasn't a fan of him as an actor, seems to me like he was cast based on the way he looks rather than his "talent".

To me though films and TV are a collaborative medium and the hard work of countless of other people, like actors, writers, etc..., shouldn't be disregarded just because of awful producers/directors. I'm pretty sure you can find some creep in any production even if it never came to light. I actually heard of stories about people, especially women, walking away from this business because of that.

With actors it's a little more complicated because their face is actually shown and I guess for some it might be more triggering. That's the exact thing Disney is dealing right now with Death on the Nile.

And there are also books like Harry Potter. For me it's easier because I don't really care about Harry Potter now as an adult and I did reread the books before JK Rowling exposed herself as a transphobe, and tbh I found them very mean spirited, but I guess for people who still like it, it must be very hard. I still like the movies and watch them from time to time, but like I said movies are different than books. I never planned to buy anything from her again, but even if I did, I wouldn't in order to not support her.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:31 pm 
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Very true. The same goes for Buffy. Even if Joss Whedon is as horrible as they say, I cannot but still adore that show.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:00 pm 
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Buffy was always my favorite TV show even though I've always hated Whedon, and honestly I didn't like anything else he made that I think Buffy was good despite of him. Even the first couple of seasons have this weird "Whedon-y" dialogue that just feels awkward, but maybe the whole show was like that, but the actors could elevate the material they were given. And this is the perfect example cause despite Charisma having an awful experience on set, Cordelia means a lot to her and I watch Buffy because of her or other actors and not because of Whedon.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:15 pm 
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Well I really hope that he killed off Jenny to move the plot along and not because of some behind-the-scenes drama.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:31 pm 
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I personally don't think the HP books are mean-spirited; actually the complete opposite, I believe they advocate compassion. I think several of the 'good' characters are mean (Ron, Fred, Ginny, Sirius and James when they were young), but I see that as more deliberate reflections on those individual characters since so many of the other characters aren't that way. I really don't mind buying new products that would put money in Rowling's pockets still because she supports liberal politicians who are pro-trans whatever her personal views may be. I know Ickabog was 100% charity anyway, but I would've bought it regardless and I still plan to buy the rest of the Illustrated Jim Kay series. Whether or not she is transphobic in her personal life, she's not going to suddenly support conservatives in her country. I don't believe she's even against trans rights so much as she is personally not okay with LGBT on a religious level. That's not much different than a lot of people (Jodi Benson, for example). Either way, I hope and believe she will evolve over time on the issue; trans issues will likely take much longer to be understood than being gay / bisexual ever did, and it's not like the latter is in a firm place either. That said, she's also a Christian, feminist, liberal, etc. If you can't handle one disagreement with a person, you're never going to be able to support anyone. It's funny, because I imagine that's just a drop in the bucket compared to what people from the past like C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, T.H. White, Roald Dahl, Baum, then Walt Disney and most of the actors and animators at the Disney company back then, etc. probably thought. They were likely racist, anti-Semitic, sexist, anti-gay, all the -isms more or less. They may be dead, but your money is going to their families, who were raised by the people with those viewpoints likely to believe the same things.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:57 am 
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Thinking that the families of certain people couldn't't have different views than the people who raised them is just short-sighted.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:03 am 
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I didn't say they couldn't? :? But everyone knows hatred is taught.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:00 am 
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No, hatred is born. Or taught by life experience. I have hatred in my heart for things I was never taught to. My depression makes me hate the world, etc.

But most of the world was raised by racist, sexist, homophobic people. Then minorities and women pushed for the world to accept them, and future generations that had been raised otherwise accepted and even loved those people and let them do what they want.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:09 pm 
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I personally don't believe that to be true, I'm sorry. :shrug: Hatred isn't born in the womb, imo, it's taught from experience, bad education, parents, culture, etc. I think people are born perfect, but become corrupted by the world around them and by their own choices (that doesn't mean they are forever corrupted though; since I know you're Christian, too, I'll speak more explicitly that I believe being saved and continually repenting means you are pure in God's eyes and the mind can be "renewed" continually). Someone can be born with limitations, mental or physical handicaps, but I don't believe a person can be born evil--partly because I believe God knows what is outside a person's control (such as biology), he's not going to blame them for things they have no power over. That's just my opinion; I'm not a teacher or expert on the Bible at all and don't pretend to be, everyone has to decide for themselves what they believe on a religious level, these are just my views.

But I agree with you on the point that not all people are like their parents, some consciously choose to go the opposite way, but I'd argue the majority of people are like their parents because most people don't really think very much about what they're taught, they just accept it. Moreover, someone being dead doesn't suddenly mean throwing money at their works in the present would have no meaning if you think any disagreement with a person's words and opinions in life matter enough not to support them? You're still supporting the legacy of the things someone who is dead believed, if you feel that way; you're heightening their profile and aiding them in being remembered fondly by future generations.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:48 am 
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Hm...I am a really, really liberal Christian. I believe people can be born evil, like sociopaths, but God lets them into Heaven anyway. I believe God only punishes chosen evil, and that biological evil is just something God allows because he lets the world be very complicated.

About the rest, well, let's just agree to disagree. But I really admire how nicely and respectfully you shared your opposing view. I do want to mention though, I do very much agree God allows into Heaven anyone who repents.

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