Oliver and Company Discussion

[Balto123]

"Oliver & Company" is one of my all-time favourite Disney films, and I can remember vividly back in 1996 how excited I was at seeing this film, little realising that it wasn't the brand new film I thought it was! I've always felt that this film has been unfairly dismissed due to coming just prior to the Disney Renaissance, and is one of the catchiest foot tapping films Disney has made. It's not of an epic scale like the Disney films of the early 90's, but it certainly stands out as a colourful and fun film that stands proudly in my collection.

[akhenaten]

what a coincidence..i was having a disney 80s theme and watdched oliver and GMD so far..i loveeee oliver! for the music, the setting and the contemporary characters...will they remaster this film one day?????? PLEASE!

[Jeffel]

Oliver's a good film, not one of the best, not good and certainly under-rated. It's worth watching just for the rendition of 'Why Should I Worry?'

[blackcauldron85]

I've always been pretty sure that I saw Oliver & Company in the theater in 1988, but I would've been 3 and really don't remember seeing it then, but I'm pretty sure I did. I had almost all the Sing Along Song tapes...except the "Fun With Music" volume, which was the Oliver & Company volume (and it's always confused me as to why they didn't name the volume after one of the Oliver & Company songs...

For me, the soundtrack is tied for first place (with Pete's Dragon and Tarzan), out of the animated soundtracks. I love all the songs, and I find myself singing them all the time! The opening scene is very emotional, what with the song and poor Oliver, all alone. I love movies that can make me laugh and cry, and Oliver & Company is no exception. I've always liked how much Jenny loves Oliver...their relationship always stuck out to me. I mean, any good animal owner loves their pet, but this little girl is just so sad that her kitty was taken away.

Georgette is such a diva- I love it. And I admire Tito's determination to make her love him! The characters in the film are so great- most of the dogs lend some great comic relief.

This isn't just about Oliver & Company, but it's an interesting short article on Disney's computer usage in the late '80s/early '90s:

Coffee, Peter. "Disney wizards add CAD to animators' tricks of the trade." PC Week 6.n30 (July 31, 1989): S3(2). General OneFile. Gale. Orange County Library System (FL). 11 Apr. 2009
<http://0-find.galegroup.com.iii.ocls.in ... rodId=ITOF>.
Gale Document Number:A7485842

Abstract (intro):

Computer-aided design (CAD) techniques are being used by animators at Walt Disney Pictures. In the animated feature film, 'Oliver and Company,' the data for the cars and trucks driving down the streets came from a General Motors data base. The automotive data base contained so much detail that certain things were taken out so that it would blend in with the hand animation. CAD programs are particularly useful in scenes in which perspective changes rapidly. The use of computer animation reduces the time required to plan such scenes from weeks to hours. Disney is beginning to reuse its CAD components, but faces a storage problem. Data from a ten minute film stored on nine-track data tapes filled a 6-foot-tall cabinet.

[Coffee, Peter. "Disney wizards add CAD to animators' tricks of the trade." PC Week 6.n30 (July 31, 1989)]

In an unmarked gray building on an industrial street in Glendale, Calif., the wizards of Walt Disney Pictures make magic. Limousines drive down stairways into subway stations, mermaids swim with schools of fish, seagulls swoop through urban canyons. And none of it is real.

In recent years, the skills of Disney's Feature Animation Department staff have been augmented by a growing collection of computer-aided techniques. In "Oliver and Company," the highest-grossing animated feature film ever made, the New York background is precisely detailed. The animation is built on top of a CAD database supplied by the architectural firm of Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, in Chicago.

The cars and trucks driving down the streets are also surprisingly realistic; the underlying data cames from a General Motors database. Was that a Ryder rental truck that just drove by? Yes, and the firm paid to have its trademark appear, just as it would pay for a real truck in a real background of any other movie.

"Our main goal is to create a seamless blend between computer and hand animation," said Tina Price, head of computer animation at the Feature Animation Department. "The General Motors database has so much detail that we have to take things out or you'll notice the difference and say, 'Aha! That was done on a computer.' The computer animation shouldn't jump out at you."

The impact of computers is most noticeable in scenes in which the perspective changes. In a scene from "The Rescuers," a bird swoops down from the top of a skyscraper and brushes the roofs of cars on the street below. "That took weeks to plan without the computer," Price said, "compared to about an hour for a similar shot in the sequel," which is now in production.

Even when a character must be drawn by hand, the computer can give powerful help to the artist. "We can give the animator a moving cube, coming down the stairs as the point of view changes," Price explained. "It gives the artist a frame that helps to orient the character."

Before the age of PCs, animators needed a tower of equipment twice as tall as a man, with layers of painted glass and a camera at the top. The planes in a scene would be painted on each layer and then shifted back and forth to produce perspective and the illusion of motion.

"With the model in the computer, we don't need to call back the camera crew for a different shot," said Price.

Now, Disney is beginning to exploit its ability to reuse CAD components. "We have a database of things like wheels and horses," Price explained. In one short film, the front end of a limousine from "Oliver and Company" was turned upside down to become the face of a mechanical monster. "We save everything," she said.

Saving past work creates storage problems for Les Larson, the department's senior facilities administrator. "We'd need a warehouse to store what we'd like to keep," he said, waving his hand at a 6-foot-tall cabinet of nine-track data tapes. "All of those are for just one 10-minute film."

Larson looks forward to using higher-density formats, such as 8-millimeter tape and optical disk. "Later this summer, we'll be taking the wraps off something that's way beyond what we have now," he said.

[ajmrowland]

So back then, they were thinking the same thing as they are now: "We can't wait for more storage mediums to become available!".

[blackcauldron85]

So, I just watched Oliver and Company, and I was looking at the bonus features; I have the Special Edition (not the newest DVD version of the film), and I never knew that there was a second page of bonus features! I had always thought that the Special Edition wasn't so special, but it is a lot more special now, although I'd still love a documentary.

Does anyone have any info on the unused "Jungle Song" fantasy sequence? It has a section in the Publicity section of the bonus features.

Where in the film is the song "Buscando Guayana" by Ruben Blades? It's listed on the soundtrack (I don't have the soundtrack, just mp3's of the main songs). I'm guessing the song is either played on a radio in the film or used as background music (maybe at one point when Tito is on screen?). Here's a link to the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L5pwD_0O0U

[SpringHeelJack]

"Buscando Guayana" is played when we first see Tito and he's dancing with the wallet in his mouth, then again in the end when he's dancing with Georgette. It's diegetic music, meaning it's playing on the radio in the context of the movie. I always found it an odd but nice inclusion on the soundtrack, given how much I do appreciate complete soundtracks.

[blackcauldron85]

Great- thanks, Brendan!

[Disney's Divinity]

I actually have really fond memories of Oliver & Company. Don't get me wrong, the film has a lot of weaknesses (the climax is kind of ridiculus and the animation isn't the greatest seen in a Disney movie), but the music is excellent and the voice talent is incredible--the main reasons this movie isn't completely forgettable. Bette Medler, Billy Joel and Cheech Marin particularly stand out (although sometimes I wish Bette Midler had been given a role in another, better film, she definitely does a great job here). I have to agree with someone earlier in this thread who though Joey Lawrence as Oliver was kind of bad. For some reason, he always annoys me. Still, Tito, Georgette, Francis, Dodger, and Rita are great characters, and Penny is adorable. Nowhere near Disney's best, but not at the bottom of the heap either.

[blackcauldron85]

Penny is adorable.

That's true, but we're talking about Oliver and Company! Penny is in The Rescuers (and there's a Penny in Bolt), and Jenny is in Oliver and Company.

[Disney's Divinity]

Oh, blah. All Disney girls are the same.

[blackcauldron85]

Oh, blah. All Disney girls are the same.

I think that you are mistaken!

[Disney Duster]

I finally saw this with adult eyes. I think I had seen the whole thing before, but as a very young kid. My fondest memories related to this movie are actually the preview for it on my Cinderella Classics VHS.

*SPOILERS*

So I saw it and...I thought it was really great! First, you dig the music and the painted backgrounds. Then, you feel really sad for poor Oliver. I didn't really feel much for the ,ater beginning or even middle of the film because, dare I say it, I didn't think Oliver was much of a character. He's cute and helpless and then he tries to get food he feels belongs to him. Then he scratches an evil dog. Yeah, that's spunky, but not particularly unique or interesting or endearing to me. Emphasis on to me. I bet others will love him. The dogs all kind of had stereotypical personalities, except Rita but I guess you could label her the caring female peace-keeper or something. And yet, all those dogs at least still had distinctive and good characters. I actually most liked Fagin. I guess he was this loser who was trying to make ends meet and survive and he took care of all these dogs and I found it interesting. Even more interesting was his dilemma in the the third act. That he thinks of using the cat to get him and his dog pals out of, well, death, is a good idea and rather manipulative and ingenious. It shows a bad side to the character, a complexity, and then he has this dilemma of just giving the girl the cat or getting money, though Jenny made it insanely easy by only having a piggy bank to offer in return for said cat. That brings me to Jenny. She's adorable, and I like her, but she's not much of a character beyond being nice and being a victim. I will gives her props for going herself to get Oliver back. And like I said, I like her, and she was endearing and adorable. She also looked sooooo much like a younger, and earlier version of Ariel. It was clear she was an Ariel prototype. LOL JK You know what I mean. Anyway, I found Sykes to be a pretty effective villain, and the climax was out of this world amaazing. It was truly an animation and tension tour de force! It has got to be hands down one of the best Disney climaxes ever! I can't believe they pulled it off! Yes, this film actually is probably the Disney film with the worst animation, without remembering or being able to compare all of them to know, but still, Disney animation was very well done here! Anyway, not much left to say except I did not find the '80sness bad at all. I especially loved it in the songs. My two favorite songs were "Why Should I Worry" and "Good Company". Seriously, those songs are so good, I not only see them as some of the best Disney songs ever written, but I can't decide which one I like better! So, yeah, Oliver & Company is awesome! Oh, and Bette Midler as Georgette was great! And the animation of her wake-up routine is also a superb tour de force of it's own!

[blackcauldron85]

I'm glad you like it! I'm a bit confused, and I'm not sure if it was a typo or if I read it wrong, but you said it is one of the worst DACs, or did you mean it's perceived that way?

While not in my Top 10 (even though it is one of my absolute favorite soundtracks; I'm thrilled that you love "Good Company"- it's a favorite of mine and so underrated!), I love the uniqueness of the time period at Disney + all of the '80s DACs, so O&Co + TGMD have a special place in my heart (TF+tH, TBC, + TPM are in my Top 10).

Since there are so many supporting characters, sure, you don't get in depth with them, but I think each of the dogs has distinctive personalities, which you touched upon. I agree that the "Perfect Isn't Easy" scene is so we'll executed!!

I know the backgrounds aren't everyone's favorite, but I think they give the movie a different feel than the other DACs. O&Co doesn't continue the richness (in terms of look) of The Rescuers through TGMD, but it has a distinctive style that I think works for being in a gritty city.

There are some heartfelt moments and some really funny moments, and I think the film does these well. Tito, Winston, Einstein, & Georgette are very entertaining, taking into consideration the lack of getting to know them too well.

I like Jenny; I like that you mentioned her bravery at going to get Oliver.

"Once Upon a Time in New York City" (shout out to Howard Ashman's Disney debut!) already was a great heartbreaking, but inspirational song/scene, but my beloved dog Oliver passed away a few years ago; he of course was a rescue dog as all of mine are, and so it's hard to listen to the song because his name is in it, but it kind of tells the story of a homeless animal (I don't like the term "unwanted"- they're just not found yet!), and that's emotional for me!

[JeanGreyForever]

I watched Oliver for the first time since I was a kid a few months back when Disney+ debuted and I had a similar experience as you. I liked it a lot more than I thought I would although I had quite a few issues as well. Oliver is absolutely so cute and I even purchased his plus for the 30th Anniversary of the film, but as a character, he's pretty much a cipher. Doesn't have much of a personality especially in comparison to all the Renaissance protagonists who came after him. I also didn't believe in his relationship with Dodger. It's way too rushed because Dodger is snubbing him up until Oliver winds up at the hideout and suddenly they're so close and deeply devoted to each other. I did like Dodger though and the rest of the dogs were pretty great although I hated Tito, the stereotypical chihuahua. He reminded me of all those awful live-action chihuahua films Disney used to make in the 2000s and it felt like he was the prototype. Georgette was plain lovely though. Jenny is fine and gets the job done but I'll admit that I found Penny a better developed character in The Rescuers although Jenny holds up pretty well. Sykes is a good villain for the film especially with that thrilling climax even if he doesn't compare to the more classic Disney villains in the long run.

The music was much better than I remembered so it's a shame the soundtrack isn't better valued, probably because it exceeds the quality of the overall film. The animation and visuals are pretty yuck though and I posted in another thread already about how ugly the background animation was. Felt like a cheap Saturday morning cartoon and not up to Disney's standard of quality at all. Others have said this is Disney's ugliest film and I'm inclined to agree most wholeheartedly. The 80sness wasn't an issue for me either unless the substandard animation is considered part of that lol.

While not in my Top 10 (even though it is one of my absolute favorite soundtracks; I'm thrilled that you love "Good Company"- it's a favorite of mine and so underrated!), I love the uniqueness of the time period at Disney + all of the '80s DACs, so O&Co + TGMD have a special place in my heart (TF+tH, TBC, + TPM are in my Top 10).

"Once Upon a Time in New York City" (shout out to Howard Ashman's Disney debut!) already was a great heartbreaking, but inspirational song/scene, but my beloved dog Oliver passed away a few years ago; he of course was a rescue dog as all of mine are, and so it's hard to listen to the song because his name is in it, but it kind of tells the story of a homeless animal (I don't like the term "unwanted"- they're just not found yet!), and that's emotional for me!

What film is TPM?

Aww, that's a shame about Oliver and I can see why it would be so heartbreaking to listen to the song with his name in it. You must miss him terribly! Were you inspired to name him Oliver after this film or was it just a coincidence?

[DisneyBluLife]

I watched Oliver for the first time since I was a kid a few months back when Disney+ debuted and I had a similar experience as you. I liked it a lot more than I thought I would although I had quite a few issues as well. Oliver is absolutely so cute and I even purchased his plus for the 30th Anniversary of the film, but as a character, he's pretty much a cipher. Doesn't have much of a personality especially in comparison to all the Renaissance protagonists who came after him. I also didn't believe in his relationship with Dodger. It's way too rushed because Dodger is snubbing him up until Oliver winds up at the hideout and suddenly they're so close and deeply devoted to each other. I did like Dodger though and the rest of the dogs were pretty great although I hated Tito, the stereotypical chihuahua. He reminded me of all those awful live-action chihuahua films Disney used to make in the 2000s and it felt like he was the prototype. Georgette was plain lovely though. Jenny is fine and gets the job done but I'll admit that I found Penny a better developed character in The Rescuers although Jenny holds up pretty well. Sykes is a good villain for the film especially with that thrilling climax even if he doesn't compare to the more classic Disney villains in the long run.

The music was much better than I remembered so it's a shame the soundtrack isn't better valued, probably because it exceeds the quality of the overall film. The animation and visuals are pretty yuck though and I posted in another thread already about how ugly the background animation was. Felt like a cheap Saturday morning cartoon and not up to Disney's standard of quality at all. Others have said this is Disney's ugliest film and I'm inclined to agree most wholeheartedly. The 80sness wasn't an issue for me either unless the substandard animation is considered part of that lol.

While not in my Top 10 (even though it is one of my absolute favorite soundtracks; I'm thrilled that you love "Good Company"- it's a favorite of mine and so underrated!), I love the uniqueness of the time period at Disney + all of the '80s DACs, so O&Co + TGMD have a special place in my heart (TF+tH, TBC, + TPM are in my Top 10).

"Once Upon a Time in New York City" (shout out to Howard Ashman's Disney debut!) already was a great heartbreaking, but inspirational song/scene, but my beloved dog Oliver passed away a few years ago; he of course was a rescue dog as all of mine are, and so it's hard to listen to the song because his name is in it, but it kind of tells the story of a homeless animal (I don't like the term "unwanted"- they're just not found yet!), and that's emotional for me!

What film is TPM?

Aww, that's a shame about Oliver and I can see why it would be so heartbreaking to listen to the song with his name in it. You must miss him terribly! Were you inspired to name him Oliver after this film or was it just a coincidence?

TPM, I think he means TLM
I think he misspelled it. If you look where "P" and "L" is placed on a computer keyboard

[blackcauldron85]

^ Yup, I did mean TLM!!! Sorry about that!

Nope, Oliver's name was just a coincidence, he came with it!, but pretty much everyone who first met me when he was alive asked if I named him after the Disney cat!

[Disney Duster]

Oh, Amy, when I said it was Disney's worst animated Disney film I meant it was the Disney film that is animated the worst! As in it has the worst animation! In terms of the movie itself, it is probably in lower middle tier. It's above stuff like Disney's 2000's films.

Yes, "Good Company" love! It's so funny, I didn't know what TPM was either until I figured it must be TLM lol.

Yes, we don't get to know the dog characters, and maybe that would have helped me see them beyond stereotypes. Dodger is probably the one you get to know enough to go a little beyond his "the cool one" stereotype.

I actually really liked the backgrounds. I thought they were perfectly appropriate for the "gritty city" of New York as you said.

Aw, I am so sorry about your dog, Oliver. I was going to ask if he was named after the titular cat, too! He's in doggy heaven now!

JeanGreyForever, yes, cipher is exactly the term I would use for Oliver. And you brought up something I forgot to bring up, and you said it so well. Oliver's relationship with Dodger is so rushed, and in fact, it is very rushed with the entire gang, too. He follows them to get food, then suddenly he has some deep relationship with them which doesn't feel real and then he's supposed to be so sad to leave them and go back to Jenny's. And yes, Penny, from what I remember, is a better developed character than Jenny. Tito annoyed me, too, and I thought he was way too stereotypical, but then I found out he was voiced by Cheech and I thought "Well, at least he's authentic and agreed to it". Yes, Sykes doesn't have a place in the Greatest Disney Villains wall of fame but he does a great job for the film.

The animation was pretty much as bad as you said, with the exception that I was able to buy it as from a Disney film, just their worst in terms of animation.

I also don't get why this film's soundtrack isn't more popular. I mean it's not like the film is bad enough to drag it down.

[JeanGreyForever]

TPM, I think he means TLM
I think he misspelled it. If you look where "P" and "L" is placed on a computer keyboard

^ Yup, I did mean TLM!!! Sorry about that!

Nope, Oliver's name was just a coincidence, he came with it!, but pretty much everyone who first met me when he was alive asked if I named him after the Disney cat!

Oh yes, that should have been obvious to me! I kept reading that thinking The Phantom Menace and I knew it wasn't that nor any other 80s Disney film like Mickey's Christmas Carol or The Brave Little Toaster.

I can totally see why people thought you named Oliver after the character in this film!

Oh, Amy, when I said it was Disney's worst animated Disney film I meant it was the Disney film that is animated the worst! As in it has the worst animation! In terms of the movie itself, it is probably in lower middle tier. It's above stuff like Disney's 2000's films.

Yes, "Good Company" love! It's so funny, I didn't know what TPM was either until I figured it must be TLM lol.

Yes, we don't get to know the dog characters, and maybe that would have helped me see them beyond stereotypes. Dodger is probably the one you get to know enough to go a little beyond his "the cool one" stereotype.

I actually really liked the backgrounds. I thought they were perfectly appropriate for the "gritty city" of New York as you said.

Aw, I am so sorry about your dog, Oliver. I was going to ask if he was named after the titular cat, too! He's in doggy heaven now!

JeanGreyForever, yes, cipher is exactly the term I would use for Oliver. And you brought up something I forgot to bring up, and you said it so well. Oliver's relationship with Dodger is so rushed, and in fact, it is very rushed with the entire gang, too. He follows them to get food, then suddenly he has some deep relationship with them which doesn't feel real and then he's supposed to be so sad to leave them and go back to Jenny's. And yes, Penny, from what I remember, is a better developed character than Jenny. Tito annoyed me, too, and I thought he was way too stereotypical, but then I found out he was voiced by Cheech and I thought "Well, at least he's authentic and agreed to it". Yes, Sykes doesn't have a place in the Greatest Disney Villains wall of fame but he does a great job for the film.

The animation was pretty much as bad as you said, with the exception that I was able to buy it as from a Disney film, just their worst in terms of animation.

I also don't get why this film's soundtrack isn't more popular. I mean it's not like the film is bad enough to drag it down.

I'm glad we agree on so many things about this film, if not almost everything. Especially Oliver's relationship with the rest of the dogs which really surprised me because that's supposed to be the emotional weight the film is based on alongside Oliver and Jenny's relationship. I guess I should blame the writing for Tito more than the performance since I hope it wasn't all improvised by his actor.

I used to think The Great Mouse Detective had ugly animation but this film was definitely a step down from even that. And TGMD was a film that had its budget slashed in half and release date pushed one year earlier.

I think the music gets overshadowed by TLM, BATB, Aladdin, TLK, etc. so that's probably why.

[Disney Duster]

Yes, his relationship with the dogs, and Jenny, is all important, and they dropped the ball for both. Tito's writing wasn't too good.

I haven't seen TGMD since I was little. I could Prime that soon.

Yes, yes about the music.