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The Little Mermaid Discussion
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Author:  Disney's Divinity [ Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

farerb wrote:
Disney's Divinity wrote:
Seeing this post again, I wanted to add that—in part because of talking about Disney failing at villains these days in the TLM Live thread—I think one reason Ursula is such a successful villain is because Triton is so well-done. Triton himself is more than a bit frightening in how aggressive and forceful he is, which makes Ursula even more badass as a villain for not hesitating to take him on. I mean, the first moment he lays eyes on Ursula, he blasts her into a wall. :lol: And all she does is laugh.

I know I’ve often seen sayings like “A hero is only as good as his/her villain,” but I think it’s a more reciprocal relationship than that really. A villain isn’t satisfying if they don’t have a good character to fight against. That’s why the climax to Aladdin is one of the best Disney has, imo, not just because of how powerful Jafar is at that point but because Aladdin is such a smart, formidable, well-rounded character, too.

I agree. I think the dynamic between the protagonist and antagonist is something crucial for a film's success. I think that was one of the strengths of the earlier Renaissance films that the latter Renaissance films couldn't recreate for some reason (except The Hunchback of Notre Dame).

With Pocahontas, I blame the fact that Ratcliffe is so divorced in tone from everything and every other character (even though I thought David Ogden Stiers gave a fun performance). With Tarzan, Clayton was just a flop all-around--the design of the character was the most underwhelming part for me. I thought Hercules and Mulan were both decent in that department, but not up there with the Fab Four or Hunchback--partly because Hercules & Hades and Mulan & Shan-Yu have little direct interaction with one another. Whereas Belle and Simba have regular interaction with Gaston and Scar in the first part of their films, TLM has "PUS," Aladdin has the Cave of Wonders scene where Jafar manipulates Aladdin, and Quasi and Frollo interact even more often.

Author:  Disney Duster [ Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

You guys are right, having a hero and villain who are good for each other is important.

JeanGreyForever wrote:
Lol, that is sound advice. I agree that Triton was put in a tough position and probably for the sake of his kingdom, he made the wrong choice. I don't really see why the "kill the witch" storyline is so panned now because if Ursula was male, that wouldn't suddenly make Ursula's actions unacceptable or make Ursula a toxic character all of a sudden. And TLM shouldn't be criticized for this when Snow White and Sleeping Beauty (and Cinderella too to an extent) featured similar "witch" characters who met grisly ends.

The sisters were barely present in the show. Arista was the most prominent one as she had two episodes dedicated to her rivalry with Ariel which is also why most fans tend to like Arista the most because the other sisters were basically ciphers. Alana has one episode with Ariel where they go to Eel-ectric City but she had no personality or presence. The books I was referring to are these. http://cbl.orcein.net/thelittlemermaid/ ... novels.htm

I picked them all up on Amazon second-hand and I really enjoyed them. A lot of them don't focus on Ariel (although she's always in the story) but are from the point of view from one of the sisters and a few books focus on all the sisters equally which was great. I think every sister ended up having a book with a prominent role except maybe Aquata. Ursula appears in one of the books (take a guess which one lol).

I've read both comic series for the film as well. The original four-issue Peter David one and then the second series which was created by Marvel Comics and tied-in with the TV series so it had characters from the show like Urchin, The Evil Manta, Pearl, the Crab Scouts, the Lobster Mobster, etc.

The "kill the witch" thing is indeed in many fairy tales, and is in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty (I see the Cinderella "witch" being defeated, but not killed, and she doesn't get a horrible life, her evil plans are just ruined), I was just pointing it out here with the addition of an older man rising to power again to add insult to injury.

I looked through, not read, but looked through those Little Mermaid novels when I was s kid! I looked for Ursula in them, and there was an illustration of her, young, skinny, looking like Vanessa, with a young Triton. I guessed Ursula was in Reflections of Arsulu, but I accidentally saw that it was about Ursula after I was thinking it may be that one. That guy in Ariel the Spy's cover is a hunk!!!

That's so cool about Ariel's sisters!!!

Author:  JeanGreyForever [ Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Disney Duster wrote:
JeanGreyForever wrote:
Lol, that is sound advice. I agree that Triton was put in a tough position and probably for the sake of his kingdom, he made the wrong choice. I don't really see why the "kill the witch" storyline is so panned now because if Ursula was male, that wouldn't suddenly make Ursula's actions unacceptable or make Ursula a toxic character all of a sudden. And TLM shouldn't be criticized for this when Snow White and Sleeping Beauty (and Cinderella too to an extent) featured similar "witch" characters who met grisly ends.

The sisters were barely present in the show. Arista was the most prominent one as she had two episodes dedicated to her rivalry with Ariel which is also why most fans tend to like Arista the most because the other sisters were basically ciphers. Alana has one episode with Ariel where they go to Eel-ectric City but she had no personality or presence. The books I was referring to are these. http://cbl.orcein.net/thelittlemermaid/ ... novels.htm

I picked them all up on Amazon second-hand and I really enjoyed them. A lot of them don't focus on Ariel (although she's always in the story) but are from the point of view from one of the sisters and a few books focus on all the sisters equally which was great. I think every sister ended up having a book with a prominent role except maybe Aquata. Ursula appears in one of the books (take a guess which one lol).

I've read both comic series for the film as well. The original four-issue Peter David one and then the second series which was created by Marvel Comics and tied-in with the TV series so it had characters from the show like Urchin, The Evil Manta, Pearl, the Crab Scouts, the Lobster Mobster, etc.

The "kill the witch" thing is indeed in many fairy tales, and is in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty (I see the Cinderella "witch" being defeated, but not killed, and she doesn't get a horrible life, her evil plans are just ruined), I was just pointing it out here with the addition of an older man rising to power again to add insult to injury.

I looked through, not read, but looked through those Little Mermaid novels when I was s kid! I looked for Ursula in them, and there was an illustration of her, young, skinny, looking like Vanessa, with a young Triton. I guessed Ursula was in Reflections of Arsulu, but I accidentally saw that it was about Ursula after I was thinking it may be that one. That guy in Ariel the Spy's cover is a hunk!!!

That's so cool about Ariel's sisters!!!

One could argue that King Stefan is an example of an older man who regains power in Sleeping Beauty after Maleficent's death and the Maleficent film certainly seemed to go that route. And in Snow White, seven, albeit little, men were responsible for killing the queen and Grumpy was hardly the biggest fan of women before that.

Yes, Ursula is really Arsulu in disguise. I've seen some cool fanart of Ursula and her various disguises including Vanessa and Arsulu. Lol, the guy in Ariel the Spy is her substitute teacher. I think Adella, the boy-crazy sister, actually has a thing for him when she sees him. Pretty much in every book she's after some guy although, besides the substitue, they all tend to be more age-appropriate for her.

Author:  Disney Duster [ Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

JeanGreyForever wrote:
One could argue that King Stefan is an example of an older man who regains power in Sleeping Beauty after Maleficent's death and the Maleficent film certainly seemed to go that route. And in Snow White, seven, albeit little, men were responsible for killing the queen and Grumpy was hardly the biggest fan of women before that.

Yes, Ursula is really Arsulu in disguise. I've seen some cool fanart of Ursula and her various disguises including Vanessa and Arsulu. Lol, the guy in Ariel the Spy is her substitute teacher. I think Adella, the boy-crazy sister, actually has a thing for him when she sees him. Pretty much in every book she's after some guy although, besides the substitue, they all tend to be more age-appropriate for her.

You know, you're right, older men come back in power even when those older women with power die in those other movies, too.

Does one of those books have Ursula when she was younger with a younger Triton, and she looks like Vanessa?

I like that Adella is boy crazy. That's fun.

Author:  JeanGreyForever [ Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Disney Duster wrote:
JeanGreyForever wrote:
One could argue that King Stefan is an example of an older man who regains power in Sleeping Beauty after Maleficent's death and the Maleficent film certainly seemed to go that route. And in Snow White, seven, albeit little, men were responsible for killing the queen and Grumpy was hardly the biggest fan of women before that.

Yes, Ursula is really Arsulu in disguise. I've seen some cool fanart of Ursula and her various disguises including Vanessa and Arsulu. Lol, the guy in Ariel the Spy is her substitute teacher. I think Adella, the boy-crazy sister, actually has a thing for him when she sees him. Pretty much in every book she's after some guy although, besides the substitue, they all tend to be more age-appropriate for her.

You know, you're right, older men come back in power even when those older women with power die in those other movies, too.

Does one of those books have Ursula when she was younger with a younger Triton, and she looks like Vanessa?

I like that Adella is boy crazy. That's fun.

That actually I don't remember. There was nothing about young Triton with Ursula. If you look at the link I sent you with the novels, all the illustrations for the novels are included so maybe you can find it in there.

The same website also has images for all TLM books released so far so you might also find that picture here.
http://cbl.orcein.net/thelittlemermaid/gallery.htm

I think Adella was also boy crazy in the prequel movie which might be one of the few things that Ariel's Beginning kept consistent with the old canon.

Author:  Disney Duster [ Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Oh, I found it! Or at least I think this is the only time they ever had this illustration. If this is the only time there was such an illustration, I was wrong, it wasn't in those novels you liked so much. It was in Once Upon a Princess: here. I had thought about getting that book when I saw it, but it didn't have enough Ursula for me, lol. I have the Cinderella one.

I hate Ariel's Beginning so much. Such a dreary movie.

Author:  JeanGreyForever [ Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Disney Duster wrote:
Oh, I found it! Or at least I think this is the only time they ever had this illustration. If this is the only time there was such an illustration, I was wrong, it wasn't in those novels you liked so much. It was in Once Upon a Princess: here. I had thought about getting that book when I saw it, but it didn't have enough Ursula for me, lol. I have the Cinderella one.

I hate Ariel's Beginning so much. Such a dreary movie.

Oh ok, I've seen that image before. I always thought it was strange how they adapted Ariel's grandmother in that book. The Cinderella book comes with Belle and Pocahontas right? I know there's also a version that combines both volumes of the Once Upon a Princess series.

It's a really terribly written movie which doesn't fit in well with the original movie at all, let alone the TV series and sequel. The plotline and new characters are all so bad that you really have to wonder why this movie was ever greenlighted in the first place.

Author:  Disney Duster [ Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Yes, Belle and Pocahontas are in that book with Cinderella! I don't know if I've ever seen the one with all of them together.

I'm glad we agree about Ariel's Beginning.

Author:  MrXemnas1992 [ Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

30th ANNIVERSARY TODAY!

Author:  JeanGreyForever [ Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Disney Duster wrote:
Yes, Belle and Pocahontas are in that book with Cinderella! I don't know if I've ever seen the one with all of them together.

I'm glad we agree about Ariel's Beginning.

It's this one.
Image

MrXemnas1992 wrote:
30th ANNIVERSARY TODAY!

Wow, I can't believe it's been that long already! Congratulations to TLM! :dance:

Author:  Disney's Divinity [ Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

MrXemnas1992 wrote:
30th ANNIVERSARY TODAY!
Congratulations to one of the greatest Disney films of all time! (I turned 30 this year, too; this movie is dragging me along with it. :lol: ) I'd put it in Disney's top 5 greatest animated films alongside Pinocchio, Dalmatians, The Lion King, and Beauty and the Beast. (With Bambi not far behind.)

Thank you to M&C, Howard Ashman, Alan Menken, Pat Carroll, Jodi Benson, Samuel Wright, Kenneth Mars, Glen Keane, Andreas Deja, Ruben Aquino, and all the so many, many others involved in making this movie a part of our world. <3

Author:  thedisneyspirit [ Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Hahaha, Esmeralda is there. Hide that picture before Princess Cultist sees that and gets a seizure.

Author:  MerPrincessJamie [ Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

I believe the anniversary is the 17th if I'm not mistaken.

Author:  MrXemnas1992 [ Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

...whoops.

google lied to me Dx

Author:  Disney Duster [ Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Oh, I don't remember if I've seen that, but thanks for the picture.

When the 17th comes I will write a little something in celebration!

Author:  Disney's Divinity [ Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

MrXemnas1992 wrote:
...whoops.

google lied to me Dx
It’s only 4 days off. Not a big deal, you can still celebrate. :lol:

Author:  Sotiris [ Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

‘The Little Mermaid’ Turns 30: Inside the Rocky Journey to Make a Disney Classic
https://variety.com/2019/film/news/oral ... 203379538/

Author:  Disney Duster [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Thank you very much for that, Sotiris. Even if I had read or heard so much of the info before, it was really great reading it again, and so in-depth. I really liked reading how Glean Keane liked hearing he made Ariel ugly because he really didn't think she was ugly, he thought she was real. That's why she is, I think, Disney's most beloved, or at least most popular Disney heroine. The strawberry blonde Tyco Ariel dolls was interesting! I also was interested to read how Howard Ashman broke the news about himself and how it was a shadow on Beauty and the Beast.

Author:  Atlantica [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Gosh, that made me a bit emotional reading that.

I don't think any film has ever made as much impact on me as Mermaid has.

Author:  Disney's Divinity [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Little Mermaid Discussion

Good for them noting the character of Ariel is best known for her red hair, in part because it signifies her fiery, passionate, and rebellious nature. I never knew Tyco had a problem with that early on. :lol: I love that they had to re-make the dolls.

Quote:
Wright: I was always alone [in the studio] because we had decided that Sebastian was only about seven inches big, so my only relationship with everybody else was that they were all larger than me. We placed the microphone at least three to five feet above my head and I would shout at the microphone because I was on the floor.
rotfl Never knew about this.

All the details of the surface water and special effects are part of why the film is so striking.

Honestly, I remember reading how they tried to make a film that could sit along Walt’s old films, but I think one of the many, many reasons the film turned out so well was that perhaps they were thinking this could be the very last animated Disney film, period, and were trying to in some sense bookend Snow White. How different compared to the way Lasseter treated TP&TF. I don’t think he felt any real urgency about hand-drawn animation’s success or failure. He was going to have a job regardless of how things turned out, and I’m sure he preferred 3D anyway since that’s why he created PIXAR. And even Newman didn’t seem to care about the film to me based on those recent comments you posted from him, Sotiris; in some ways it felt like Lasseter threw him on the film because he didn’t care anyway and thought he could at least give a friend (Newman) another paycheck.

It’s a travesty when you really think about how the only films we really got with Ashman at full capacity and in control were The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast. I know he contributed to Aladdin, too, but wow… You can only wonder what might’ve been. Maybe he could’ve steered the Renaissance in a way that Disney didn’t fall back on a repetitive formula (both in the story and music) that audiences tired of quickly.

I love what Keane said about Ariel not being pretty every moment in the film. I think that has a great deal to do with feminism having happened in the ‘60s between TLM and the old Walt princess films, too, because there’s something wrong with thinking a female protagonist needs to be pretty at all times. Ariel is still one of the most fleshed out female characters Disney has ever created. You see so many sides to the character--the good, the bad, hopeful, dreamy, angry, selfish, heartbroken, euphoric, etc. That's why she's one of the most popular characters they've ever had.

Atlantica wrote:
I don't think any film has ever made as much impact on me as Mermaid has.
Same.

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