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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:17 pm 
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^Nice post. I especially agree that Triton's willingness in the end to turn her into a human is really believable because she is so driven and determined throughout the film. That's in contrast to "Pocahontas" where Powatan's sudden change of heart in the end makes no sense at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:41 pm 
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I don't know, I thought Powhatan's change wasn't very drastic. In the end, Powhatan is just another variation of Triton (the overbearing, discriminatory, patriarchal figure)--but he's not nearly so narrow-minded as Triton appears on occasion. Or, at least, from what I got from Pocahontas, he wasn't nearly so dismissive of his daughter. He actually takes her views into account. The only time he doesn't is with the death of Kokoum, which leads to him to his worst actions in that film. In the end, I think he was far more reasonable, and, even beyond that, Pocahontas' willingness to take Smith's fatal blow is very powerful.

But, you know, moving on to Mermaid ( :P ), Ariel is obviously a very emotional character. There's no other way she could carry half of a film without speaking so well if she wasn't. But I think this is even triple-emphasized by her design (the eyes--which have received some criticism here lately). It's no surprise that a character that is completely driven from scene to scene by feeling would have eyes as a critical feature. And there's, imo, such a wide range of emotion that Ariel exhibits compared to most other heroines. Sure, there's the typical: fear, love, sadness, defiance (which you find mostly in the 90s heroines; one of the reason some people find them to be too self-entitled), etc. But you don't really see something like Ariel singing on the rock, or the scene where she first sees Vanessa with Eric, or the exuberance over a new world, in many other films. Just complete raw emotion. (Many of the 90s films have a similar "I want" goal of an outside world beyond there own, but I don't think it's as fully realized in, say, Hunchback, where Quasimodo's desire is brief and forgotten as the story moves along to bigger plot points)

I think a lot of the credit goes to Ashman/Menken/Benson/Keane with "Part of That World." That scene epitomizes the whole film. From not understanding her father or seemingly unexplained rules, to hesitantly wanting to experience (whether than live vicariously through objects), to making a stand and expressing her right to learn/live, and finally a dejectedness that her dream is in many ways beyond her reach--or, at least, going to be very difficult to attain.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
But, you know, moving on to Mermaid ( :P ), Ariel is obviously a very emotional character. There's no other way she could carry half of a film without speaking so well if she wasn't. But I think this is even triple-emphasized by her design (the eyes--which have received some criticism here lately). It's no surprise that a character that is completely driven from scene to scene by feeling would have eyes as a critical feature.

Very good point! (Why didn't I write that down?) Indeed, her eyes reveal so much about her. I didn't know there was criticism of it on UD. What were the critics saying? But it's not only her eyes, it's all her expressions and gestures (sometimes ever so subtle) which reveal a more complex emotional 'structure' than any other Disney character has.

Disney's Divinity wrote:
And there's, imo, such a wide range of emotion that Ariel exhibits compared to most other heroines. Sure, there's the typical: fear, love, sadness, defiance (which you find mostly in the 90s heroines; one of the reason some people find them to be too self-entitled), etc. But you don't really see something like Ariel singing on the rock, or the scene where she first sees Vanessa with Eric, or the exuberance over a new world, in many other films. Just complete raw emotion.

You worded that very well. I completely agree. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Good analysis. I like what you said, I too like Little mermaid but for different sort of reason. I bit more hard to explain one. Anyway, i’d like to point out two things of yours


Goliath wrote:
Cinderella had no distinct goal.

Cinderella, from my analysis, seems more on a surviving expectation. She never had much of a goal she desire other be free but found it a hard one to reach out for until after the ball where she realize it was best gateway ticket out. I made a who anaylsis paragraph about her in the Cinderella discussion thread. you can read about it there. Just want to say she more 3-dimensional than people clamp her together as.



Goliath wrote:
I could go on for a while, but I think it's clear what I mean. Ariel is the only Disney character who has a clear goal set for herself, and she will do whatever it takes to achieve it, even if it means giving up everything she knows


I think there are other characters that challenge that statement of yours:

Aladdin: whole point of the movie was for Aladdin to get inside Jaz’s pants and live the rich life.

Mulan: take her weak father’s place in the army and willing to sacriface her own life in his place. Not mention women weren’t allow to be in army too.

Hercules: wanted to fit in society, rejoin with his true family. Wanted to prove himself and others who he is.


Little Mermaid is awesome for fact you get to see her vagina and ass uncensored. fuck yeah.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:39 am 
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Goliath wrote:
Belle and Jasmine effectively did nothing but sit around in their castles, unwilling, yes, but still, they did. And while they had a vaguely stated goal of wanting to get 'away', the film's plot dictated that they did nothing to achieve it.


Uhhh, Jasmine ran away and disguised herself...I mean, yes, after that she is at the palace yet again, but it's not like she didn't try to experience more than the palace life.

Disney's Divinity wrote:
I don't know, I thought Powhatan's change wasn't very drastic. In the end, Powhatan is just another variation of Triton (the overbearing, discriminatory, patriarchal figure)--but he's not nearly so narrow-minded as Triton appears on occasion. Or, at least, from what I got from Pocahontas, he wasn't nearly so dismissive of his daughter. He actually takes her views into account. The only time he doesn't is with the death of Kokoum, which leads to him to his worst actions in that film. In the end, I think he was far more reasonable, and, even beyond that, Pocahontas' willingness to take Smith's fatal blow is very powerful.


Very well put. I agree. Triton had a temper, while Powhatan doesn't. I mean, yes, he does tell Pocahontas "not now, Daughter" or something to that effect, and he won't listen to her about the English, but I think that Powhatan's lack of temper and lack of powerhungriness makes him seem nicer and more accepting...

About Ariel and her emotional eyes: She's a mute for a good chunk of the film, so she HAD to be expressive visually!

Goliath wrote:
I could go on for a while, but I think it's clear what I mean. Ariel is the only Disney character who has a clear goal set for herself, and she will do whatever it takes to achieve it, even if it means giving up everything she knows

Super Aurora wrote:
Aladdin: whole point of the movie was for Aladdin to get inside Jaz’s pants and live the rich life.


:lol: When I read Goliath's post, Aladdin was my first thought, but my thought was a little different than Super Aurora's. :p Aladdin definitely has a goal of wanting to be more than just a street rat...he wants someone/people to see him for who he really is. And yes, it took him lying to finally reach that goal, but still... :p And Mulan is a great example.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:34 am 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
:lol: When I read Goliath's post, Aladdin was my first thought, but my thought was a little different than Super Aurora's. :p Aladdin definitely has a goal of wanting to be more than just a street rat...he wants someone/people to see him for who he really is. And yes, it took him lying to finally reach that goal, but still... :p And Mulan is a great example.



Actually if you think about it, Aladdin is the male reversal role of Little Mermaid

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:54 am 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
Goliath wrote:
Belle and Jasmine effectively did nothing but sit around in their castles, unwilling, yes, but still, they did. And while they had a vaguely stated goal of wanting to get 'away', the film's plot dictated that they did nothing to achieve it.


Uhhh, Jasmine ran away and disguised herself...I mean, yes, after that she is at the palace yet again, but it's not like she didn't try to experience more than the palace life.


Well, Belle also tried to get away, but after her first failed attempt, she really didn't want to get away anymore.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Goliath, I very much enjoyed your post about Ariel; I agree with you on practically all points; very well written :)

I have a question for you though; you say you are very much drawn in and enveloped by Ariel's character in the movie; are your opinions effected by viewing Ariel's Undersea Adventures ? As in, you know she always strives for what she believes in, i.e. Stormy, Urchin, Spot etc..... does that add to the enjoyment of her character, is it detrimental, or do you just plain ignore it as you dont like TV series of classics (I'm just not sure where you stand on the matter Goliath, I dont mean to start this into a sequel debate).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Super Aurora wrote:
I think there are other characters that challenge that statement of yours:

Aladdin: whole point of the movie was for Aladdin to get inside Jaz’s pants and live the rich life.

That's true, but this gets overshadowed by the comedic nature of the film. The Genie is at the center of almost the entire movie (and before he appears on screen, it's Iago). The film has a very light-hearted tone and is treated like a prolongued cartoon. It doesn't have the drama that TLM has.

Super Aurora wrote:
Mulan: take her weak father’s place in the army and willing to sacriface her own life in his place. Not mention women weren’t allow to be in army too.

That's not a goal for herself, not something she wants to do to fill her own emotional desires. She does it out of selfishnessless, to save her father.

Super Aurora wrote:
Hercules: wanted to fit in society, rejoin with his true family. Wanted to prove himself and others who he is.

You're right, but once again, like the previous Clements-Musker film, the accent is on the comedy. Were it treated like a real Greek myth (though Disneyfied), it would have had much more emotional impact. But Disney's Hercules is most of all a parody on modern American society. The kind of comedy is Aladdin all over again, and it takes away from Hercules' personal quest.

Super Aurora wrote:
Little Mermaid is awesome for fact you get to see her vagina and ass uncensored. fuck yeah.

You know, I like you, but sometimes you trouble me...


Last edited by Goliath on Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:37 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
Uhhh, Jasmine ran away and disguised herself...I mean, yes, after that she is at the palace yet again, but it's not like she didn't try to experience more than the palace life.

That's true, but what did she *do* when she ran away from the palace? Where did she want to go? What did she want to accomplish? We know nothing about this. All we know is that she wandered around aimlessly at the market, and later on in the film, she's perfectly content to accept a prince (or so she thinks) to marry her and take care of her. All of a sudden, getting away from palace life isn't such a high priority anymore.

What are your thoughts on this?

atlanticaunderthesea wrote:
Goliath, I very much enjoyed your post about Ariel; I agree with you on practically all points; very well written :)

Thank you. I enjoy writing about film (that's why I studied it profesionally), so it's nice to know people enjoy reading it. :)

atlanticaunderthesea wrote:
I have a question for you though; you say you are very much drawn in and enveloped by Ariel's character in the movie; are your opinions effected by viewing Ariel's Undersea Adventures ? As in, you know she always strives for what she believes in, i.e. Stormy, Urchin, Spot etc..... does that add to the enjoyment of her character, is it detrimental, or do you just plain ignore it as you dont like TV series of classics (I'm just not sure where you stand on the matter Goliath, I dont mean to start this into a sequel debate).

Don't worry, I will not unleash a big debate. ;)

I've seen the tv series when I was little, but even then I didn't enjoy it very much. Not because the series was spun off a Classic movie (I was too young to appreciate the difference in quality), but just because I didn't like the stories and the new characters much. I haven't seen the two sequels and I intend to keeping it that way, simply because I think the original movie's story is 'finished'. There's a reason why fairy tales end with the phrase "they lived happily ever after": because that's all you need to know.

I wouldn't want to see Ariel becoming a mother! The whole original Classic was about her struggle to become human and about how different her world and the human world are. Making a sequel in which you see how she has gotten used to living on land, would take away what the character is about --in my opinion. Besides, her strong emotional drive came partly from being "a headstrong teenager". That's whay made her character, and a sequel would show an Ariel who has matured to the point where she's even responsible enough to have a daughter. Again, it would take away just what I found so to be so appealing about the original film.

The tv series and the sequend sequel (prequel, really) show Ariel's life before the events of the first film. Personally, I don't need that kind of backstory. Everything I need to know about her, I can find in the 1989 Classic.

What are your thoughts on this?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Those are some really good points on Aladdin and Hercules, Goliath! I enjoyed reading your post :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:01 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
Super Aurora wrote:
Mulan: take her weak father’s place in the army and willing to sacriface her own life in his place. Not mention women weren’t allow to be in army too.

That's not a goal for herself, not something she wants to do to fill her own emotional desires. She does it out of selfishness, to save her father.


Well, I wouldn't exactly call that selfishness. I agree with everything you said about Ariel, but I think that her goal was more selfish than Mulan's. And at first Mulan ran away to help her father, but during 'I'll Make A Man Out Of You" Shang tells Mulan to go home, but she stays in the army. Her father wouldn't have to fight if she left, but instead she stayed and reached the arrow. For herself, not her father.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:49 pm 
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rodis wrote:
Those are some really good points on Aladdin and Hercules, Goliath! I enjoyed reading your post :)

Why, thank you!

Scarred4life wrote:
Goliath wrote:
That's not a goal for herself, not something she wants to do to fill her own emotional desires. She does it out of selfishness, to save her father.


Well, I wouldn't exactly call that selfishness. I agree with everything you said about Ariel, but I think that her goal was more selfish than Mulan's.

Thank you, you have pointed out a huge typo that gives my post an entire different meaning than I had intended. I meant to write that Mulan did it out of *selfishnessless*. If that's a word... I mean that Mulan *wasn't* selfish. Yes, I agree, Ariël *was* selfish, if you want to call it that. My point was that Ariel did everything out of a desire to fulfill her own wishes, which makes her the one character with the strongest emotional motivation. Mulan does everything she does for her father.

So, thanks again for giving me the opportunity to clarify myself.

Scarred4life wrote:
And at first Mulan ran away to help her father, but during 'I'll Make A Man Out Of You" Shang tells Mulan to go home, but she stays in the army. Her father wouldn't have to fight if she left, but instead she stayed and reached the arrow. For herself, not her father.

That is a good point. I didn't think of that. Maybe she gradually developed the urge to proof to herself what she's worth? On the other hand, being expelled from the military would have brought shame over her family and thus over her father, and she wanted to avoid that.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:08 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
That's true, but this gets overshadowed by the comedic nature of the film. The Genie is at the center of almost the entire movie (and before he appears on screen, it's Iago). The film has a very light-hearted tone and is treated like a prolongued cartoon. It doesn't have the drama that TLM has.

Goliath wrote:
You're right, but once again, like the previous Clements-Musker film, the accent is on the comedy. Were it treated like a real Greek myth (though Disneyfied), it would have had much more emotional impact. But Disney's Hercules is most of all a parody on modern American society. The kind of comedy is Aladdin all over again, and it takes away from Hercules' personal quest.

True. I was just pointing out that Ariel isn't THE only one.

Goliath wrote:
That's not a goal for herself, not something she wants to do to fill her own emotional desires. She does it out of selfishnessless, to save her father.


Scarred4life said exactly what I was going to say.

Goliath wrote:
You know, I like you, but sometimes you trouble me...

That was a joke. LOL Of course there is other stuff I like about the movie.

It is true though. If you free-pause frame by frame during Ariel's escape for air, you can see it.

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Last edited by Super Aurora on Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:10 pm 
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I'm on a semi-break from UD right now so I'm not making many comments, but I just wanted to say Goliath how much I appreciate your analysis on Ariel. You really hit the nail on the head as to why so many people love this film so much, including myself.

I think the funniest thing about Ariel's self-motivation is that it's also what turns people off from the movie, too. Too bad for them, I guess.

And, to get my say in on the sequels and show, yeah, I watched the show when I was little, too. But I never held it in the same regard as the original, I could tell it was much cheaper and just wasn't as good as the film. I don't hate it, but I don't have the desire to watch the series.

As for TLM 2 and TLM 3- I loved TLM2 when it came out. Mind you, I was pretty young so I didn't have any concept of what made a good movie. It was Ariel again, that was enough! On a recent viewing, it's slightly painful to watch Ariel as an adult, with a child... Blech.

TLM3 is an okay flick. Not a masterpiece by any means, but if TLM had to have a prequel I prefer this one over the TV show.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:43 pm 
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UmbrellaFish wrote:
I'm on a semi-break from UD right now so I'm not making many comments, but I just wanted to say Goliath how much I appreciate your analysis on Ariel. You really hit the nail on the head as to why so many people love this film so much, including myself.

I think the funniest thing about Ariel's self-motivation is that it's also what turns people off from the movie, too. Too bad for them, I guess.

Wow, thanks you guys, you keep covering me in compliments. :oops:

But what you say is true: some people hate the film because they think Ariel is a selfish character and it turns them off. I've read essays of feminist film scholars who criticize the fact that the woman in the film has to give up everything she knows in order to be with the man. I even know someone who thinks The Little Mermaid was the beginning of Disney's downfall, instead of a revival. I guess these people have never been a teenager; they were just born old. (They're all Benjamin Buttons?)

I've been on (semi-)breaks too. It can be good. But don't stay away too long! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
Thank you, you have pointed out a huge typo that gives my post an entire different meaning than I had intended. I meant to write that Mulan did it out of *selfishnessless*. If that's a word... I mean that Mulan *wasn't* selfish.


Ahh... Something didn't quite add up there. :)

Goliath wrote:
Yes, I agree, Ariël *was* selfish, if you want to call it that. My point was that Ariel did everything out of a desire to fulfill her own wishes, which makes her the one character with the strongest emotional motivation. Mulan does everything she does for her father.


I wouldn't call Ariel selfish, exactly. I only said that to point out that her desires were more selfish than Mulans.

I agree with you that Ariel is the most emotionally driven character, but Mulan does do something for herself.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
But what you say is true: some people hate the film because they think Ariel is a selfish character and it turns them off. I've read essays of feminist film scholars who criticize the fact that the woman in the film has to give up everything she knows in order to be with the man. I even know someone who thinks The Little Mermaid was the beginning of Disney's downfall, instead of a revival. I guess these people have never been a teenager; they were just born old. (They're all Benjamin Buttons?)


Nostalgia Chick (I think) takes offense to Ariel sacrificing everything to be with a man she barely knew too, but to me it is believable considering the character's age.

She's old enough to take charge of a situation to get what she wants, but inexperienced enough to appreciate the consequences of her actions or what to look for in love beyond what she images to be the perfect man.

In the end I think that's' the importance of Eric, to create a character that the heroine deserves in the end. Does he succeed in begin so? I guess since he did save her life and all, but for some reason I feel he's not as good as he could be, though I can't entirely explain why.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:51 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
Scarred4life wrote:
Goliath wrote:
That's not a goal for herself, not something she wants to do to fill her own emotional desires. She does it out of selfishness, to save her father.


Well, I wouldn't exactly call that selfishness. I agree with everything you said about Ariel, but I think that her goal was more selfish than Mulan's.

Thank you, you have pointed out a huge typo that gives my post an entire different meaning than I had intended. I meant to write that Mulan did it out of *selfishnessless*. If that's a word... I mean that Mulan *wasn't* selfish. Yes, I agree, Ariël *was* selfish, if you want to call it that. My point was that Ariel did everything out of a desire to fulfill her own wishes, which makes her the one character with the strongest emotional motivation. Mulan does everything she does for her father.

So, thanks again for giving me the opportunity to clarify myself.

You mean selflessness?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:18 pm 
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SmartAleck25 wrote:
You mean selflessness?

Is that what you call somebody who's not selfish? I normally don't have problems with English, but this one has become a debacle.

@ Flanger-Hanger: although may Disney-fans have become ecstatic about prince Naveen (The Princess and the Frog), I still think Eric is the best of the Disney princes. Many fans praise Naveen for his big change of heart, but he's basically a stock character, a cardboard cut-out. The selfish and arrogant prick who turns into a loving and caring soul: we've seen it many times before. Eric seems to be a good guys from beginning to end, although we don't know much about him. I wish you could explain why he's not "as good as he could have been".


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