The Little Mermaid Discussion

[Goliath]

I disagree. I think that Ariel's face looks decidedly funny and off-model in lots of shots from The Little Mermaid.

Well, I noticed it in some shots, and I've seen the movie a LOT! There were few times, however, where it was really noticeable (is that a word?). So I think the animators did a good job covering that up enough for me not to notice most of the time. Still, it's true you cans ee the difference from time to time. That proves that, although I consider it to be a great film, it doesn't meet the quality standards that were set in Walt's days. You would never catch Cinderella or Wendy looking off-model. This, of course, has everything to do with the budgets that became holy after Eisner and Katzenberg took over. It's more noticeable and annoying in Aladdin, where his hair keeps growing longer and shorter.

That aside, I think The Little Mermaid is one of Disney's bests, and better than any other film after it, until The Hunchback of Notre Dame came along. However, I will not join the choir that says everything made before TLM is not worth watching, because I think a lot of the 1970's and 1980's movies are actually quite good.

What I like most about it, is simply the main character. I think the voice acting is incredible, the design is appealing, and I think the writers nailed down the personality in such a believeable way. I had a teenage sister and believe me... Ariel is very much like a real teenage girl. The songs and the truly funny sidekicks (not childish funny like Timon & Pumbaa) keep all this from getting corny or 'girlish'. I also want to mention Pat Caroll, one of the best performances in any Disney film.

@ Disney Duster:

Thanks so much for linking to those 'Making of'-videos! I've never seen them before! I don't get why Disney didn't put it on their Platinum Edition! It shows real-life 'models' for Ariel and Eric, it shows interviews with voice actors and lots of other things that didn't make it to the new 'Behind the scenes' segments on the PE. Also, it does a good job placing the film in context with regard toprevious Disney Classics.

Hear and see Ariel sing in Dutch (I grew up on this):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdcrE80CmGw

I am probably in the minority here, but I felt that The Little Mermaid was a bad departure from the earlier Disney movies.

Ariel is pretty disobedient, and ends up happy in spite of (or even because of) that disobedience. There really aren't any consequences for disobeying.

Lilo and Stitch is the same way - Lilo is extremely out of control, and doesn't face any consequences for her actions.

Well, what can you say? Kids will be kids. If you don't like this movie because of that aspect, I have a hard time imagining you yourself at one time were a teenager. Although I'm 23 years old now and a guy, I can definatel relate to Ariel, because I have been a teenager. And teenagers do rebel against their parents. So I think the film is honest in that depiction. Also, I think Ariel's disobedience was justified. Triton was bigoted and prejudiced against people. It's like your own father being prejudiced against people of color. (I didn't mean YOUR father, but like, in general.) I think it's very much okay to stand up against it. Ariel, although only a teenager and naive in many ways (which also is a honest depiction of teenage life), was in that respect much smarter than her father. I think Triton has realized this in the end and therefore there are no consequences for her obedience.

[WillytheDino]

Some pictures have portrayed Ursula as skinnier before she was banished from the palace. But there's no official look at how she was before she became exiled. I bet she was always pretty big if not bigger based on what she's said and done in the movie, though.

I found some pictures, too. They are from the Disney Villain Files.

This one is taglined 'Ursula attacks diner, notice how skinny she is'
Or something. I don't remember well.

There are two other, but here she is more 'chubby'.



They're not really big, sorry for that, but I got them from a website because you can't buy the book in Belgium.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I am probably in the minority here, but I felt that The Little Mermaid was a bad departure from the earlier Disney movies.

Ariel is pretty disobedient, and ends up happy in spite of (or even because of) that disobedience. There really aren't any consequences for disobeying.

Lilo and Stitch is the same way - Lilo is extremely out of control, and doesn't face any consequences for her actions.

Well, what can you say? Kids will be kids. And teenagers do rebel against their parents.

I'm a teenager (well until May) and I don't rebel against my parents, neither have my cousins from what I'm aware of. So not all teenagers rebel.

Anyways, I agree with Littlefuzzy, Ariel pulled a lot of crap and ended up happy which isn't really fair to her friends, family etc.

[Disney's Divinity]

Normally, I would agree with you, but this line of thinking seems too often to stem from the “parents are always right” attitude. Well, unfortunately, they’re not. There’s no denying Ariel’s mistakes (which I think she did get punishment for, personally, after nearly being pinned to the ocean floor by Ursula in the end), but there’s no denying that Triton was not a mature or reasonable parent. I like Triton, because I do think he meant well, but when you get to the point where you don’t care if a living being drowns, there’s something screwed up about your thinking. And I'm not going to condemn Ariel when I know very well that I would've done anything to get away from Triton, too.

I wonder if maybe this is why the musical puts Ursula and Ariel's "I Want" songs side-by-side, to exemplify the differences in their character. Both Ursula and Ariel have been condemned by Triton for one thing or another and both want more than what they have. I think the difference really is that Ariel doesn't treat people like objects to get what she wants, but as "ends in and of themselves." As much as she probably disliked Triton at the moment, I can't honestly believe she would've traded him away knowingly.

On another note, I noticed something the other day while watching the movie. I was thinking about how many people call this film somewhat sexist and then I realized how much like a boy's movie this film starts out, with Ariel hunting for "treasure" and fighting beasts (the shark). Ah well.

[Goliath]

Anyways, I agree with Littlefuzzy, Ariel pulled a lot of crap and ended up happy which isn't really fair to her friends, family etc.

Well, that argument was already given by Littlefuzzy, to which I posted a counter-argumentation. So it would be nice if you adressed those points, instead of repeating an objection that has already been debunked (at least in my eyes).

Triton was prejudiged and, yes, a bigot toward all creatures different from him, so yes, I think Ariel had every right to go against him.

[Disney Duster]

I wonder if maybe this is why the musical puts Ursula and Ariel's "I Want" songs side-by-side, to exemplify the differences in their character. Both Ursula and Ariel have been condemned by Triton for one thing or another and both want more than what they have. I think the difference really is that Ariel doesn't treat people like objects to get what she wants, but as "ends in and of themselves." As much as she probably disliked Triton at the moment, I can't honestly believe she would've traded him away knowingly.

Did you know that in the musical Ursula is supposed to try to make Ariel relate to her because she says they have both been wronged by a man in power?

As for Ariel's boy activities, hm, maybe that's why so many boys are okay with this princess film. Ariel isn't sewing or baking...? But boys can do those activities too...designers and chefs anyone? Ah well.

[jeremy88]

On another note, I noticed something the other day while watching the movie. I was thinking about how many people call this film somewhat sexist and then I realized how much like a boy's movie this film starts out, with Ariel hunting for "treasure" and fighting beasts (the shark). Ah well.

Not to mention Ariel saving a damsel in distress(Eric), that whole scene is pretty action packed. Also the fight with Ursula is pretty violent...and you know little boys love violence! C'mon now you won't see a ship splinter jab through someones gut AND get electricuted in a G movie these days.

[Sky Syndrome]

For my fifth birthday (1990), my mom drew a full length picture of Ariel with Crayola markers on poster boards taped together and taped it to my bedroom door. Imagine mom's dismay when she eventually discovered I had licked as much of the picture I could reach, blotching the colors. Another Little Mermaid item I was given at the time was a bed set.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

Well, that argument was already given by Littlefuzzy, to which I posted a counter-argumentation. So it would be nice if you adressed those points, instead of repeating an objection that has already been debunked (at least in my eyes).

Triton was prejudiged and, yes, a bigot toward all creatures different from him, so yes, I think Ariel had every right to go against him.

Actually from what I recall Littlefuzzy made no mention of unfairness towards family and friends just that she pulled a lot of crap

Anyways, she may have every right to go against him BUT that's not sending a good message to kids is it? "If you don't like how your parents act then rebel! There's no consequences at all you'll end up happy"



Fact is she handled things horribly, yeah Triton's a jerk but going out and making a bigger mess by rebeling isn't helping. Besides, she knew it was forbidden to go to the surface yet did it anyways she should have known Triton wouldn't have a rule in place unless there was good reason. All she does is break rules of his and she then wonders why he gets mad and acts the way he does.

[xxhplinkxx]

"If you don't like how your parents act then rebel! There's no consequences at all you'll end up happy"

If you have good reason to, then yes. When I was about 15, I realized how closed minded my parents are. Since then I've never really listened to anything they've said, and I'm almost 22 now. I don't regret not listening to them, cause by doing what in my heart I felt was right, I've had the time of my life, and I don't mean about going out and being a crazy party animal, I mean that had I listened to them, I would have missed out on a lot of normal life experiences.

I guess it's why Ariel has always been my favorite and I relate most to her. Just because someone is supposed to have the power (a parent, teacher, school principal, boss, president, etc.) like Triton did, doesn't mean that they're right. Follow your heart. If in the end it turns out you effed up, that's ok. You learn from it and move on. At least you won't have the lingering question of "what if" following you for the rest of your life.

[Goliath]

Anyways, she may have every right to go against him BUT that's not sending a good message to kids is it? "If you don't like how your parents act then rebel! There's no consequences at all you'll end up happy"

I think it's a way better message than "Always do as your parents tell you to, no matter how wrong they are". I think it's important that teenagers learn critical thinking and question authority. And, to counter your point, I think nearly being killed by a giant sea witch *is* a pretty big consequence. I think Ariel learned her lesson, because, yes, of course it was wrong to go to the witch, but the rebelling per sé is not a bad thing.

Fact is she handled things horribly, yeah Triton's a jerk but going out and making a bigger mess by rebeling isn't helping.

Of course I agree with you on that. Yes, she made a bigger mess, but as I said it was not the rebelling per sé I have a problem with (like going to the surface, rescuing Eric etc.), but going to the witch Ursula. But, having been a (rebellious) teenager myself, I can totally see Ariel's motivation. And I can't really blame her. When you're 16 and in love, you do stupid things. That's just a part of life. That's why I like this film so much: I think it's so real.

Besides, she knew it was forbidden to go to the surface yet did it anyways she should have known Triton wouldn't have a rule in place unless there was good reason.

Well, then what was the good reason for forbidding her to go o the surface? I can't think of any other besides Triton's own intolerance toward humans. By the way, I don't think Triton wanted to be mean. He just didn't know better.

All she does is break rules of his and she then wonders why he gets mad and acts the way he does.

Because Triton was being unreasonable.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I think it's a way better message than "Always do as your parents tell you to, no matter how wrong they are". I think it's important that teenagers learn critical thinking and question authority. And, to counter your point, I think nearly being killed by a giant sea witch *is* a pretty big consequence. I think Ariel learned her lesson, because, yes, of course it was wrong to go to the witch, but the rebelling per sé is not a bad thing.

Of course I agree with you on that. Yes, she made a bigger mess, but as I said it was not the rebelling per sé I have a problem with (like going to the surface, rescuing Eric etc.), but going to the witch Ursula.

Well, then what was the good reason for forbidding her to go o the surface? I can't think of any other besides Triton's own intolerance toward humans. By the way, I don't think Triton wanted to be mean. He just didn't know better.

Because Triton was being unreasonable.

I never said "Always do as your parents tell you to, no matter how wrong they are". Parents can be wrong and you should be your own person and think for yourself and do what you want to do but not if it's doing something stupid which is why it is good to follow your parents rules.

I think you and I are having problems with this point, as you have said you were a rebellious teen, whereas I'm not so this part of the debate is rather pointless I think since we'll only end up going in circles and I for one get dizzy easily

Going to Ursula was a stupid idea, she should have been tipped off from the start by the creepy eels

Good reason for not going to the surface? Perhaps because he doesn't know if humans are dangerous and want to find out when it's Ariel who meets them? Maybe because not all humans are like Eric and there's reason to avoid them, it's sort of like Aquaman in Marvel Comics, he sees humans as outsiders, people who are a bit of a threat to his kingdom. It's only natural to not want interaction with people you don't trust.

Triton is being unreasonable I belive because she breaks the rules. Bear with me now, Ariel breaks the rules so he stresses to her and yells about breaking them and enforces them more which makes her rebel and break the rules. It's a vicious cycle, the more she rebels the more he becomes unreasonable if they'd both sit down and work it out things would have been fine.

[Elladorine]

Or we could just remove all conflict and not have a story to tell.

[Goliath]

I never said "Always do as your parents tell you to, no matter how wrong they are". Parents can be wrong and you should be your own person and think for yourself and do what you want to do but not if it's doing something stupid which is why it is good to follow your parents rules.

Okay, fair enough. Then I had misinterpreted your post. Of course parent can be wrong; they're only human. And teenagers are also wrong more often than not. Believe me. I would say it is good to follow your parents' rules most of the time, yet not always. As proven by Ariel and Triton's situation, in which I think Triton was wrong for not wanting Ariel to rescue a human in dire need of help.

I think you and I are having problems with this point, as you have said you were a rebellious teen, whereas I'm not so this part of the debate is rather pointless I think since we'll only end up going in circles and I for one get dizzy easily

Well, it's not like I was doing everything God and my parents have forbidden. I did nothing earth-shocking or dangerous. But yes, I've had my fair share of (huge) fights with my parents. And although I'm now older, I still know how I felt back then and that's why I can relate to Ariel.

Good reason for not going to the surface? Perhaps because he doesn't know if humans are dangerous and want to find out when it's Ariel who meets them? Maybe because not all humans are like Eric and there's reason to avoid them [...] It's only natural to not want interaction with people you don't trust.

I understand Triton wants to protect his daughter, I'm okay with that. But how does Triton know humans are dangerous? At some point, he mentions humans eating fish, which is a threat to some of the creatures in his kingdom. That I can understand. But it's not like all humans catch and eat fish, so he is making broad statements and stereotyping them. which I think was unfair of him.

Triton is being unreasonable I belive because she breaks the rules. Bear with me now, Ariel breaks the rules so he stresses to her and yells about breaking them and enforces them more which makes her rebel and break the rules. It's a vicious cycle, the more she rebels the more he becomes unreasonable if they'd both sit down and work it out things would have been fine.

I agree with you for the most part. However, I think Triton is unreasonable to forbid Ariel to learn about humans in the first place. Which makes Ariel break the rules. So I think Triton started the vicious cycle. But ayway, I enjoy the discussion so far.

------------------
I watched the film again tonight. I noticed two major sequences in which Ariel is off-model. The first one is right after "Under the sea", when she is in her grotto admiring the statue of Eric. The second time is when she is entering Ursula's lair, looking at the creepy creatures below her.

But, I enjoyed the film again. I noticed there's never a dull or weak moment in the entire film, and that's rare. I got excited over every scène and over knowig which great part was up next. My favorite part is the one in which Ariel admires the statue of Eric in her cavern, and Triton enters, and they have a huge fight over it. Then she shouts: "daddy, I love him!" That moment gives me goosebumps. I think the (voice-)acting was *so* strong. Evenly strong is the acting of Ariel after Triton has destroyed her cavern, and she lies there crying, when she tells Sebastian and Flounder to leave her alone. It's those tiny little 'details' which get to me the most.

[Disney's Divinity]

I agree that the voice acting is one of the strongest factors in the movie's success--along with the music, of course. Kenneth Mars, Jodi Benson, Pat Carroll and Samuel Wright are irreplaceable in my eyes. And I agree about the Triton v. Ariel scene. Every time I watch it, the tension, the determination in Ariel's face (like "I've had to listen to this bs for too long"), Triton's demanding voice all lead up to that spine-tingling destruction of the grotto.

Of course, I don't think the movie's entirely perfect; I've rarely seen a movie that doesn't have its bad points. Scuttle kind of gets on my nerves, though he's grown on me over the years (as has Buddy Hackett), and I've always found the land scenes from the movie a bit dull.

And about Ariel, it's hard to tell what's off-model and what's on-model, because she shifts so frequently between the two forms. I love her longer, almost lanky body in "Part of That World" and its reprise most of all (although she seems older than 16 there). But she's in that chubby, short-tailed form for many scenes in the movie as well (the worst is easily when she visits Scuttle--good God, that hair is so horrible there). But I guess, if you wanted to look on the bright side, the difference kind of fits Ariel's "not a child, but not yet a woman" story.

[Goliath]

And about Ariel, it's hard to tell what's off-model and what's on-model, because she shifts so frequently between the two forms. I love her longer, almost lanky body in "Part of That World" and its reprise most of all (although she seems older than 16 there). But she's in that chubby, short-tailed form for many scenes in the movie as well (the worst is easily when she visits Scuttle--good God, that hair is so horrible there). But I guess, if you wanted to look on the bright side, the difference kind of fits Ariel's "not a child, but not yet a woman" story.

I don't think Ariel is chubby anywhere in the movie. Yes, here and there her face is a little fuller, but not chubby. She looks younger in it, too. But I don't recall many scenes with her in that shape. I would say in most of the film, she's consistent or at least the animators/directors did such a great job that I didn't notice. I don't see anything wrong with the scene in which she visits Scuttle...

[xxhplinkxx]

The only place I would agree that Ariel('s face) looks chubby is when she's peeking through the ship and first see's Eric.

[Goliath]

The only place I would agree that Ariel('s face) looks chubby is when she's peeking through the ship and first see's Eric.

Oh no, absolutely not! I think that's one of the most beautiful 'faces' of Ariel.

[xxhplinkxx]

The only place I would agree that Ariel('s face) looks chubby is when she's peeking through the ship and first see's Eric.

Oh no, absolutely not! I think that's one of the most beautiful 'faces' of Ariel.

Don't get me wrong, I love it too, but her cheeks look noticeably more round/chubbier in that scene than most other ones.

[Goliath]

Don't get me wrong, I love it too, but her cheeks look noticeably more round/chubbier in that scene than most other ones.

I love the look on her face when she first spots Eric. That's such beautiful animation, so lifelike!