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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:46 am 
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Do you have links to those pencil drawings of the prince? I've only seen him with a sash in the new redesigns for the clipart and the Disney Parks. White would have been nice or dark blue, since that's the other color he's usually seen in. The picture you posted is black and white, but the coloring of his outfit looks darker like it was meant to be red or blue rather than white.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:20 am 
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Oh, I was wrong. I looked at the animation sketch I downloaded and it is not quite a sash, it's his rope, just drawn differently so that it looked like a sash to me. Here's the picture:
Image

And I forgot to say, I, too, wish we saw more between Cinderella and the prince in the film.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:50 pm 
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I can see why you would mistake that for a sash. They were quite prevalent in the era and they give him sashes in a lot of clipart and doll merchandise.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Yo... JeanGreyForever.... Cinderella's wedding dress is not like her ball gown, and the dress and head-dress she wears in that hugging drawing IS the right one.
There IS a mistake in the movie, in the very final shot, when she leans in to kiss the prince she is wearing a white version of her ball gown (at least the sleeve), but every other shot in the wedding scene shows the correct wedding dress.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:18 pm 
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I'm aware of that. I wasn't talking about Cinderella's wedding outfit, but the prince's. His ball outfit is the same as his wedding one.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Oh, sorry. My mistake.
You are right :)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:57 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
I looked at the animation sketch I downloaded and it is not quite a sash, it's his rope, just drawn differently so that it looked like a sash to me.

You can see it clearer in this drawing.

Image


Interesting tidbit about Prince Charming. While Milt Kahl was the supervising animator on the Prince, Eric Larson worked on some scenes as well. He wasn't happy with his work.

Andreas Deja wrote:
Oh boy, Eric Larson felt so bad about his animation of the prince in Cinderella. He told me he'd like to do it over again.
Source: http://andreasdeja.blogspot.com/2018/02 ... oughs.html

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:28 am 
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Thanks Sotiris! That's interesting. And another interesting thing pertaining in what we've all been talking about of late is that the animation sketches, I guess the rough animation sketches (?) can look very different from the final animation! Check out Cinderella's tiara or whatever you call it on her head. It's different from the one in the final film:
Image

Here's a screencap with the final film tiara:
Image

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Last edited by Disney Duster on Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:36 am 
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^I'm glad they changed it. The one in the final film is much better.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:05 pm 
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^ Amen. The new one is much better deisgned.

Also related to the discussion, in the live-action reference, Helene Stanely wore the ball gown costume for the wedding. But of course they changed the design to an actual wedding gown, but maybe it explains why Cinderella has short puffy cap sleeves in the wedding carriage. Then again, it could also be because that same pose of Cinderella and the Prince kissing in the wedding carriage is seen when Cinderella and the Prince are about to kiss that the ball. Since that required more animation than just a kiss, as they stop just before kissing and Cinderella runs away, that is probably the reason.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:58 pm 
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I prefer Cinderella's new wedding tiara/headpiece as well. The old one looks very dated.

I find it interesting that in the live-action footage, the rope on the prince's chest resembles the concept art, rather than how it ended up looking in the final movie.

Speaking of a kiss, Cinderella and the prince's first kiss (in the movie anyway) is in the wedding carriage right? They almost kiss at the ball, but she pulls away when she notices the time? It's difficult to tell whether they kiss or not but I always thought they didn't end up kissing.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:36 am 
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William Phipps, Voice of Prince Charming in 'Cinderella' and Sci-Fi Movie Star, Dies at 96
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ ... 96-1116676


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:51 am 
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Wow. Cinderella passed on, and now her prince joins her. He had an interesting career, and the date with a contest winner to promote Cinderella was cool!

Oh, and I never replied back. Yes, you got how the kisses almost happen and then do happen in the film right, JeanGreyForever.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 pm 
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It's a pity he passed away, although at least he had a long life. His story doesn't seem as tragic as Ilene Woods' was.

Thanks for confirming that they don't actually kiss at the ball Disney Duster.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:31 am 
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I thought I would continue a conversation from the Beauty and the Beast (Live-Action) thread here, since it was about Cinderella, with an update from me.

Disney Duster wrote:
JeanGreyForever wrote:
disneyprincess11 wrote:
I'm glad we didn't get that dress. Funny how it sounds, but it looks too much like that time period. The style of the dress should stand out more since she is a "funny girl."

That reminds me of how even Cinderella's animated ballgown is more early-mid Victorian compared to what her stepfamily wears. Lady Tremaine's outfit is more Edwardian while Anastasia and Drizella's bustle dresses come from the 1880s.

Disney Duster wrote:
Ok here's the 1800's dress. I think it looks like Belle's.

I can certainly see the similarities. It also reminds me a lot of the dress that the mice make for Cinderella, although some people also compare that dress to a rococo dress for some reason.

I made a picture just in reply to what you said, lol. I've learned a lot about costumes and Cinderella, of course, and I actually feel Cinderella's silver dress look, with her hair atop her head, choker, cap sleeves, and yes, a bustle (I'm pretty sure that's what the puffy material at her waist is) would be more late Victorian (1880's?), like in the first picture in the image I provide (also with a woman looking a little like Lady Tremaine), and then I also included a Victorian dress that shows her pink mice dress is indeed still from the 1800's, the picture on the right:
Image

Funnily enough I did try to provide a rococo picture on here for her pink dress when I was trying to say Cinderella was set in the rococo time period (Click here for that thread), but of course now I know it's not. However, as you and I agreed, the architecture is rococo, and Cinderella's hair, choker, and bustle actually do recall the rococo, they just happen to also connect with the Victorian.


JeanGreyForever wrote:
Thanks for the pictures. I've heard some people refer to the poofy sections at the top of Cinderella's skirt as peplum. I definitely don't consider it a bustle though. It looks nothing like it, especially in comparison to Anastasia and Drizella who both actually do wear bustles. Cinderella's dress looks more like a hoopskirt or like she is wearing a crinoline under it. I mostly got the mid-Victorian, or 1860s, period from Shoomlah's design. https://www.deviantart.com/shoomlah/art ... -207356116

This is Cinderella with a bustle.
https://www.deviantart.com/foxy-lady-ja ... -116416000


Disney Duster wrote:
My parents block my internet form deviantart so I can't see the pictures, but I've seen shoomlah's and I'm guessing the second picture was this?:
Image

Anyway, peplum is...well, after seeing what modern peplum's look like, just really short skirts attached to tops, I just have a hard time believing that one to be the right word. But the word came from 1670 before Cendrillon was written...so...maybe. I wonder what a 1600's peplum looked like?

If you look at Cinderella's and her stepsister's ballgowns, all three have what I would call bustles, and it's just that Cinderella's is split in two. I made a picture showing the girls' gowns from their sides, and judge for yourself if you think they look similar or not:
Image

I also added this sketch to show Cinderella's dress in full:
Image

Shoomlah's pictures, which she even admits herself, are just what she thinks are historically accurate. For Cinderella, she just thought the hoopskirt look that Cinderella's dress has placed her in the mid-19th century. But the sleeves, hair, and whatever it is on Cinderella's hips looks way more like the late 19th century period, don't you think? I mean, in the picture I provided of the Victorian and Edwardian fashion, don'tyou think the woman in red looks more like Cinderella than the usual 1860's woman?


JeanGreyForever wrote:
I forgot that you can't see Deviantart. But yeah, the picture you posted is the one I meant. I've heard people call the petal pointed thing at the top of Aurora's skirt peplum too, but it was just a random fan so I wouldn't put too much weight into it actually being that.

Are bustles split into two though? I'm not that familiar with Victorian fashion so I don't know for sure, but I've never seen one split into two. The only other Disney example of a bustle I can think of is Jane's yellow dress which also clearly looks like a bustle. Concept art has her in a more Edwardian dress like what Lady Tremaine wears.

I agree that the picture you provided of the woman in red has a resemblance to Cinderella's dress. Interestingly enough, I found a link that goes into the fashion of Cinderella (and some other princesses).
http://www.frockflicks.com/disney-princ ... 50-part-2/

Apparently the skirt is like a hoop skirt from the 1700s and 1850s, but without the actual hoop (since Cinderella's dress just has petticoats to make it fuller). Like you, the writer believes that the poofy things on Cinderella's dress are a bustle or at least something that is a prototype of it. So you might be onto something here.


Disney Duster wrote:
Peplum's didn't even exist in the time of Disney's Sleeping Beauty, lol, so like you said I think that was just one person's speculation (well, two people, because I own a Disney Dolls book that calls it a peplum, too).

Bustles were not ever split in two. But there is no picture with anything like Cinderella's hip swags split in two that I have ever seen ever, not even something from the 1860's like shoomlah claims Cinderella's dress is from. If I want to be totally honest, there are instances of swags split in three, like the retrousse 1700's dress and an 1870's dress which I will show here (well they are all 1870's dresses with...um...bustles?):
Image

But the swags split in two is a Disney unique deisgn. And I remember liking Jane's dress as a kid because of the bustle, lol.

I love Frock Flicks! I discovered them just a few years ago! But even they aren't completely right about everything. Cinderella's dress has fullness in the sides and back in the image of her at her side, like in the sketch in the post I made just before this one. And fullness in the back further indicates a bustle. Shoomlah thinks Cinderella has a hoopskirt that makes the dress full all the way around. I think that is possible, but that everything else she did was wrong. I think Cinderella wears an 1880's bustle dress and hairdo, just with a wider, fuller skirt. I also hate the stripes she gave Cinderella. But Frock Flicks is probably right about the petticoats, which gave dresses fullness all the way around.


JeanGreyForever wrote:
Is her dress really full in the back though? I feel like it's a parallel to the front and in the concept sketch you posted, it's really the sides of the dress poofing out, not the back. It just appears that way from the angle to me. Maybe that's why I also don't really see Cinderella's dress as having a bustle because I don't view the back of her dress as being especially full or poofy. I'm more inclined to believe in the petticoats over the hoop skirt, much like you. I don't think any of the princeses wear a hoop skirt or anything like that actually because their skirts flow too much. Cinderella, Aurora, and Belle in particular because in their ballroom scenes, their skirts are quite flowy. Ariel's pink dress is the poofiest and we never see her skirts flowing around so maybe she wears a hoop skirt or something like that.

Frock Flicks is one of the more accurate historical DP sources I've found, in part, because she also compares the time period that the film came out. Shoomlah gets a lot of importance because she started the trend of the historical DPs, but there's a lot about her work that I don't find accurate, namely Aurora and Jasmine. I guess maybe Cinderella now as well, although I'm still inclined to believe that the prologue for the film takes place in the 1960s. Frock Flicks says that as well and the dresses that young Cinderella wears are more accurate to that time period. That actually means that young Cinderella was a child at the same time that Alice in Wonderland would have been taking place.


Disney Duster wrote:
Cinderella's dress is definitely full in the back:
Image

But I agree with you, Cinderella, Aurora, and Belle, must have petticoats instead of hoops because their dresses flow to much instead of keeping one stiff shape all the time. In the live-action reference for Cinderella, she has a gown that doesn't look nearly as big and full as the final animation, so that could explain why they don't keep a hoop skirt shape, as the animators may never have had hoopskirts to draw and so draw the dresses moving flowy, but still made them big...I dunno, I'd like to think it's just petticoats.

Did you mean Cinderella's prologue begins in the 1860's, not 1960's? Lol can you imagine Cinderella with a 60's look. But yeah, sure, 1860's.


JeanGreyForever wrote:
The next time I watch Cinderella, I'll keep an eye out for the shape of her dress.


I recently discovered some things. First, that Cinderella in a bustle dress with roses as sleeves was stolen almost verbatim from this picture:

Image

Next, I discovered 1860's style dress with what looks like two swags on them. So shoomlah may have been right to do what she did. Here they are:

Image
Image

I still think Cinderella's look is from the 1880's with a bustle, because of her hair, choker, and sleeves, though.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Great finds! Especially with that first picture. It really does look almost exactly like the fanart of historical Cinderella.

So there are Victorian dresses with two swags after all. I do get Cinderella vibes from the first one you pictured, less so with the second/final one. Interesting that both pictures have a gold dress. I get Belle vibes as well from those pictures actually.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:13 am 
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Yup, that shoomlah dress was possible then.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:07 pm 
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I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this, but some actors are defending Cinderella and other Disney princesses after the comments recently made by Keira Knightley and Kristen Bell.


Timothy Simons, voice of Butcher Boy, a character from the Slaughter Race game in Ralph Breaks the Internet defended Cinderella in an interview during the film's premiere: https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1059643274221150208


And Ellie Bamber, who plays Clara's older sister in The Nutcracker and the Four Realms also did the same in a couple of articles:

Quote:
For Bamber - who spoke to Harper's Bazaar ahead of the film's release and straight after a dress fitting for the London premiere - the movie comes with a plethora of strong female characters to complement this new wave of modern game-changing female Disney leads.

However, while the 21-year-old welcomes this new wave of princesses, she can't quite bring herself to completely oppose the traditional fairytale role.

"I mean, I think it’s about time really [to have these powerful Disney female leads] but, having said that, I still love Cinderella," she says. "There is something about that film and about all of the other fairytales that is magical.

"But, in this day and age, it is really important to have strong female characters and there is certainly that in The Nutcracker. So I think it’s about time and [it's great] to be reimagining the story in this way which is so truthful and also so wonderful for young girls to have role models."
Source: https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/cultur ... rincesses/

Quote:
What is your favourite Disney film?
I love all the classics, like Cinderella, Snow White, The Little Mermaid and Lady and the Tramp. I also really love The Nightmare Before Christmas. There are just so many really incredible Disney films and having grown up watching them it’s quite crazy to be a part of one now.
Source: http://elliebamber.net/2018/10/31/topsh ... ur-realms/


Mackenzie Foy was asked about this issue too in the London premiere of The Nutcracker. It's more or less in the middle of this video.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:22 pm 
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I'm so glad to hear that these films and the classic princesses still have their defenders. Especially heartening to see that people who actually worked on Ralph and The Nutcracker are the ones defending Cinderella. Mackenzie Foy's favorite princess is Cinderella which I think is nice because it proves that you can play a "more empowered heroine" while still loving the classic princesses.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:44 am 
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Wow, I'm so happy to watch and read all that, thank you D82! So nice to hear two modern girls and empowered-role playing girls are fans of Cinderella, and that she is also the favorite of a man, and father of girls! I fully agree with JeanGreyForever. Cinderella is such a lovely person and it's good to aspire to some aspects of her. I'm glad even modern girls these days love the classic princesses.

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