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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:04 pm 
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I have to agree with the voice. I'd watch that movie much more often if it weren't for that voice...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:43 pm 
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It's a classic, so I wouldn't change a thing. I remember noticing the redesign of Snow White (especially on trading cards and merchandise), and I believe the redesign was even reflected in a bit of animation when Snow White presented an animation Oscar back in the 90s (I hope that turns up on the next DVD release of Snow White, but that'll mean I have to double dip...). The redesign is an absolute dreamgirl, in my opinion, and definitely puts her among the comtemporary princesses in regards to beauty (with her original design, she didn't quite measure up to the others, even from Walt's day). However, her classic design fits well in the classic film, and I used to have a big crush on that original version when I was a little kid (her and Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz were my kindergarten crushes).

That moment at the Oscars also featured a new voice for Snow White that was far more contemporary. In fact, while it added to her being more attractive than ever (her voice seems to be the number one complaint about that movie from people in general, as I have noticed anyway), it was probably too different from the original. I don't remember exactly though. Haven't seen it in forever. Too bad when they actually used the clip in the Oscars, there was some sort of problem with the film, or tape, or something, and it glitched. Anyway, while I'm sure most of us wouldn't want to see anything change in the classic Disney films, not really, I COULD understand folks saying it would have been nice if they did more with the prince to reveal more about his character. In fact, that's a pretty good excuse for a direct to video sequel, not that I recommend them making one, but they could always say that's why the first one called for a sequel, ha. Snow White gets kidnapped and the Prince teams up with the dwarfs to save her? So we finally get some insight into the Prince's character? Prince Charming and the Seven Dwarfs.

It's not unusual to hear about how the princes weren't developed enough in the old films, but I always thought they did a decent job with Phillip.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:09 pm 
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Am I the only one who loves Adrianna Cassolotti's singing voice? It's so unique and has a child like quality about it, which is something I think Walt wanted seeing as Snow White is a young girl. Isn't she supposed to be around 14? Her voice is very operatic and as kurtadisneyite said:
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As for Snow's voice, Disney himself chose Adriana Caselotti for Snow White. Many of the choices for Snow's voice and look were heavilly influenced by the 30's era

I feel that giving Snow White a singing voice more along the lines of Ariel or Belle would make the film lose some of it's nostalgic qualities. I agree that it would have been cool to have had the Prince play a bigger part, but the scenes with him that were cut didn't need to be there and might slow the film down. Part of what I love about it is that it never really gets boring because everything that happens furthers the plot, with the exception perhaps of a few scenes with the dwarfs, which are hilareous.

When Bambi came out on DVD, I was at Wal Mart and I heard a daughter and her mom talking about Disney movies and how they don't care for the older films. They didn't like Bambi, but then the little girl said "But I do love Snow White" to which the mom replied "Me too." I think this film has become such a part of our culture that changing anything about it would take away from it's charm. Isn't this the only animated/Disney film on the AFI's list of the top 100 films of all time?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:12 pm 
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goofystitch wrote:
Isn't this the only animated/Disney film on the AFI's list of the top 100 films of all time?


No, my beloved Fantasia is also on there. I think that Pinocchio is somewhere in the list, too.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:08 pm 
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I think it's worth mentioning that the AFI's opinion counts for nothing. Their lists are generally a load of rubbish in my eyes.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:18 pm 
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You are talking about the lists - not most of what's on them, I guess...? 8)

As for Snow White, changing the voice or anything else of substance would be entirely out of line, in my opinion. It's a classic.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Jeffel wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that the AFI's opinion counts for nothing. Their lists are generally a load of rubbish in my eyes.


Well, when it comes to movies, I only find my own opinion to be reliable, ha.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:25 pm 
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I didn't mean to change it now. I meant that say Walt had picked someone along the lines of Disney Princesses today.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:43 pm 
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UmbrellaFish wrote:
I didn't mean to change it now. I meant that say Walt had picked someone along the lines of Disney Princesses today.


Difficult. In such a case that would simply have been the way it was...

But I find it very hard to imagine that they would or could have made the Snow White character according to today's sensibilities in the 1930s...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:48 pm 
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Lars Vermundsberget wrote:
UmbrellaFish wrote:
I didn't mean to change it now. I meant that say Walt had picked someone along the lines of Disney Princesses today.


Difficult. In such a case that would simply have been the way it was...

But I find it very hard to imagine that they would or could have made the Snow White character according to today's sensibilities in the 1930s...

Obviously, just try to imagine it though. That's what this whole thread is about (and the Disney Company itself).


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:55 pm 
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We could also imagine that the 1930s was today - or today was the 1930s... :D Or a different story could have been Walt's first animated feature and SW could have been made today (or in the 90s) - in which case the character (and the singing voice) would probably have been very much like Ariel - or Belle - or Jasmine - ...

All right, I don't seem to be very cooperative here, but I guess my point is that SW and any of the others must be seen in their own proper historical context in order to make sense...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:21 pm 
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Adriana's voice IS Snow White. Her personality is specific and defined. All neo-attempts to change and update her as a faux-Belle or somesuch (Jeffrey's mandate that she have a different voice for her 50th on the Oscars, the Disneyland stage show, etc.) have failed miserably, as she ceases to be the Snow White we all love: cultural icon, campy caricature, corn-fed depression era princess, trilling sorpano, kind and eager dreamer, delightful and unique creature. She is not a human being meant to be contemporary/relevant, but a cartoon character, a stylization, a fairy tale, an indelible memory, an idealization - - one of the greatest animated creations of all time.

Leave her alone!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:24 pm 
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Lars Vermundsberget wrote:
We could also imagine that the 1930s was today - or today was the 1930s... :D Or a different story could have been Walt's first animated feature and SW could have been made today (or in the 90s) - in which case the character (and the singing voice) would probably have been very much like Ariel - or Belle - or Jasmine - ...

I wonder how they could pull off Snow White in today (or the 90's). Because let's face it: Snow White might be the fairest of them all, but not the brightest of the batch - how could they make her an intelligent character (like Ariel, Belle and Jasmine) while yet making her eat the apple after the dwarfs' warnings and everything? You could say that Ariel made a "stupid" mistake too in accepting a bargain from Ursula but she saw no other way to reunite with Eric. Snow White on the other hand was.. just hungry? ;)

Make no mistake, I'm not accusing Snow White of anything since I am quite able of placing the movie in its historical context. My question was more along Escapay's "What If?" series.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:50 pm 
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Jeffel wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that the AFI's opinion counts for nothing. Their lists are generally a load of rubbish in my eyes.

I think I approved of the Disney villains on the list (Queenie, Man and Cruella, quite simply the three best Disney baddies ever), but they don't always get other things right... Why was Christopher Lee's Dracula not also on their villains list? In general I tend not to agree with them.




I don't think I would change anything about the film, as it's rather an intimidating thought. However the question does bring up a number of 'what ifs'. What if, for example, they found it easier to animate the Prince?

If this were the case, then he could be involved more in the story. His relationship with both Snow White and the Queen could be built further.

In some story meetings the 'poison comb' of the original fairy tale was part of the film. The Queen uses it on Snow White, and returns to the castle, but the dwarfs manage to undo the comb's effects on the princess. The story meeting states that, at this point, Grumpy shows his first inkling of feeling for Snow White. When the Queen hears that Snow White is alive, she kidnaps the Prince and locks him in her dungeon. Then there's the well-known abandoned concept in which she makes the skeletons (one of them called 'Prince Oswald') dance for his entertainment, and proposes to him. He refuses, and she prepares the apple for Snow White. While she is making her way to the cottage the animals help the Prince escape and he gets out of the castle (involving a swing from a chandelier and a sword fight). He gets to his horse and, though his horse knows the right way to go, he doesn't and they go the wrong way, giving the Queen time to get to Snow White and poison her.

All of what I've written above was basically discussed in story meetings. It always sounded interesting to me, and we know that the Prince's role shrunk because he was so hard to animate. I would have loved to have seen some interaction between the Prince and the Queen.

However I think it takes some of the charm from the film. One thing about the final film is that the editing is so tight; there's nothing unecessary, and introducing a whole new element to the plot would have given the film baggage.

The other disadvantage to the inclusion of such scenes is that it makes the cast bigger. One thing I like about the film is that there is a small number of characters - Snow White, the Dwarfs, the Queen, the Prince, the Animals, and so forth - each of which we have the time to get to know. For the Prince to be locked up and to escape would require the addition of soldiers and guards for the Queen.

This also would make the character of the Queen herself less powerful. In the film as it is now, there is just one evil character in the film, who must be destroyed. It's everyone else versus the Queen, which makes the film a bit more fast-paced.

So I don't think I would make any of the changes mentioned above. Though I believe the storyline of the Prince being locked up was included in comics used to promote the film.



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I wonder how they could pull off Snow White in today (or the 90's). Because let's face it: Snow White might be the fairest of them all, but not the brightest of the batch - how could they make her an intelligent character (like Ariel, Belle and Jasmine) while yet making her eat the apple after the dwarfs' warnings and everything? You could say that Ariel made a "stupid" mistake too in accepting a bargain from Ursula but she saw no other way to reunite with Eric. Snow White on the other hand was.. just hungry?


I would actually say that Ariel is closer to Snow White than any other Disney Princess and vice versa. Snow White eating the 'wishing apple' to find her true love is not that far from the trade Ariel makes for the sake of love. It's probably because I'm not a girl, but I didn't find Ariel to be an appealing or sympathetic character; on the contrary, I found her to be very unreasonable, unnecessarily demanding, and bloody awkward. Not that her father was terribly tolerant, but I could see why.

Snow White, that is Snow White the character, fell for the Witch's trick because she was pure goodness. She saw no evil in anyone or anything. When the Huntsman tells her of the Queen's goal, Snow White can't understand this motivation, and only knows that she should run from danger - she is ignorant in that she is innocent and naive. So she never quite comprehends the danger she is in. For that reason, the dynamic of the picture is more from the Queen's determination to destroy her and everyone else's determination to protect her.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:00 am 
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merlinjones wrote:
Adriana's voice IS Snow White. Her personality is specific and defined. All neo-attempts to change and update her as a faux-Belle or somesuch (Jeffrey's mandate that she have a different voice for her 50th on the Oscars, the Disneyland stage show, etc.) have failed miserably, as she ceases to be the Snow White we all love: cultural icon, campy caricature, corn-fed depression era princess, trilling sorpano, kind and eager dreamer, delightful and unique creature. She is not a human being meant to be contemporary/relevant, but a cartoon character, a stylization, a fairy tale, an indelible memory, an idealization - - one of the greatest animated creations of all time.

Leave her alone!


When I said I'd change her voice - I obviously didn't mean quite literally that I would change it now, but it is the thing that annoys me the most about the movie - but yes, it is a product of it's time.

But it's an interesting point that you make about the movie being a cultural icon and any attempt to change it is destined to fail. I don't necessarily agree, but I do think it would be a very difficult thing to do. If we look at other cultural icons, such as comic books for example - Batman has regularly been updated over the years, and although the dark vision of the character may not be a million miles away from the 1930's vision of Batman, the character has seen many different, and equally popular interpretations over the years. The 1960's TV show, was hugely popular in it's day, and still has a lot of fans. Whereas Superman is a harder character to do anything different with - I think Superman is much more of an icon than Batman, and many creators don't think they have the same freedom with the character. The character is so good, he cannot possibly do anything questionable, and he's so powerful, there are few challenges for him. That said, Smallville has provided a new take on the character which has been extremely popular in recent years.

Again, looking at TV - Doctor Who has been redefined and is experiencing a huge upsurge in popularity. In the 80's, we were left with a character which was almost always portrayed as an eccentric, middle aged man (Peter Davison perhaps being the exception - although going around everywhere dressed as an Edwardian Cricketer is a bit strange). The series catered to a very small minority, which was probably it's downfall, yet the series was reinvented in 2005 and outside the soaps, is now probably the most popular programme on British TV, and is regularly sweeping up Best Drama, Best Actor and Best Actress awards at every TV awards show.

I think things can be reinvented, but they have to be done with care. I don't see why Snow White can't be reinvented, but I think everyone views it as such a milestone that it's such a daunting prospect. But from all accounts, Cinderella III has taken another Disney milestone and provided a new, entertaining fresh take - which might not be in the same league as the original, but nevertheless is generating a lot of positive buzz, and I'm very eager to see it.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am 
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Well, the whole movie is totally un-PC these days: I suggest the following:

Dwarfs
Oh no, stop right there. We can't go calling them Dwarfs. It's "little people" or "vertically challenged" these days. So from now on, they're "vertically challenged"

Snow White
Oh dear. Where do I start? For one thing, the name. Again, it has racial undertones. I suggest we use "Rose Red" instead, just to stop any claims of being pro-Caucasian. And then, well, she is a little too passive for this day and age. I think she should have a bit more "girl power". Perhaps she could learn karate, or be a goth, or… I don't know… abseil. And instead of singing about her Prince to come, she could sing about how she's a modern, career driven female, who see's marriage and monogamist romance as a device of a patriarchal society, designed to keep women at home and away from important decision making jobs and/or societies. That's better.

Wicked Stepmother
No, No, No, No, No. With so many families now having step-parents, its wrong to portray a stepmother as a wicked witch who has a deep psychotic hatred and jealousy of the natural child of her current life-partner. And it wouldn't be right for her to be <strike>Snow White's</strike> Rose Red's natural mother either, as this could introduce early anxieties towards their mother, leading to them rejecting their parental units. No, the only thing that can be wicked is a "reality show host", because we all know these are wicked in real-life too (all the more so because they hide their evil behind fake smiles).

The Old Crone
[shakes head] In a time where the population of the planet is increasingly aging, and more and more of the population is made up of seniors, it's wrong to portray an old crone as a symbol of evil. Therefore the Wicked <strike>Stepmother</strike> Reality Show Host would disguise herself as a media agent instead who do deserve to be shunned, as all they do is profit on other people's talent.

Poisoned Apple
Now, we're fighting a war on obesity in the west, and everyone is encouraged to eat 5 fruit portions a day. Why do we want to make children afraid of apples? NO. It would have to be a poisoned alco-pop.

Magic Mirror
Who would believe that in this day and age. No, there would be no magic mirror. The public would decide who's "the fairest of them all", perhaps with a phone vote.

The End
Well, I don't think <strike>Snow White</strike> Rose Red should be saved by the Prince, or the <strike>Dwarfs</strike> vertically challanged. She should save herself. And the Wicked <strike>Stepmother</strike> Reality Show Host shouldn't die, but should learn a life-lesson from her actions.

So here we are:
Rose Red and the Seven Vertically Challenged Men
Rose Red was one of the most beautiful people in the land. She wanted to be famous, while at the same time exploit her beauty to take control of her life and have a long and prosperous career. She was seduced by the evil Reality Show host to appear in a reality series where she shared the house with seven vertically challenged men.

Rose Red was kind, generous, witty and charismatic in the vertically challenged house. The Public warmed to her, but the reality show host was not happy. With no controversy, ratings were only "so-so".

Finally the Reality Show Host could take it no longer. Sneaking into the vertically challenged house one night, she disguised herself as a media agent, and lied to Rose Red. She told her that the public found her dull and uninteresting, and left a crate of alco-pops behind. "Drink them, my pretty" she said, "and let your inhibitions free, and create some 'must-see TV', or else you'll never be signed by my agency or any other". Poor Rose Red wanted to be famous so much, she did as the disguised reality show host said.

At first ratings went up, as a Rose Red performed more and more humiliating stunts on camera in a drunken stupor. But then, ratings fell dramatically as people eventually realised there's just no entertainment in watching once decent people make tits of themselves on reality TV. But by now Rose Red was addicted to the alco-pops. One night, she drunk to many and fell into an alcohol induced coma.

No one was able to rouse her, and her admittance to the hospital made front page news. Eventually, she was woken from her slumber by a non-threatening, emotionally passive, new-man Doctor who read to her every night. They undertook non-exclusive dating on alternate weekends so both could explore the budding relationship with no social and/or gender political expectations during this crucial initial period.

The public was happy Rose Red had awoken, and she became a media star, who used her celebrity to talk about the evils of alcohol, and the wicked Reality Show Host learnt that all reality shows were designed to pray on human weaknesses, create false conflcts and use unfair pressure to inflame emotions. So she left television to become a nun and repent all her sins.

The End.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:09 am 
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myr_heille wrote:
I wonder how they could pull off Snow White in today (or the 90's). Because let's face it: Snow White might be the fairest of them all, but not the brightest of the batch - how could they make her an intelligent character (like Ariel, Belle and Jasmine) while yet making her eat the apple after the dwarfs' warnings and everything? You could say that Ariel made a "stupid" mistake too in accepting a bargain from Ursula but she saw no other way to reunite with Eric. Snow White on the other hand was.. just hungry? ;)

Make no mistake, I'm not accusing Snow White of anything since I am quite able of placing the movie in its historical context. My question was more along Escapay's "What If?" series.


I don't intend to say that this question (or the one of the initial post) is pointless or stupid - far from it. More attempts at "contrafactual history" lead to more insight - and that's more than can be said about the majority of "discussions".

I'm sure Snow White could be reinvented today - but it/she would have become something very different then.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:07 am 
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Quote:
It's probably because I'm not a girl, but I didn't find Ariel to be an appealing or sympathetic character; on the contrary, I found her to be very unreasonable, unnecessarily demanding, and bloody awkward. Not that her father was terribly tolerant, but I could see why.

How is Ariel "unreasonable" and "unnecessarily demanding?" :? And I don't think it has anything to do with you being a guy because I know plenty of girls who aren't particularly fond of Ariel.

As for the topic at hand, I would never change Snow White. I hate the movie exactly as it is.

:wink:

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:01 am 
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The other day I had a discussion with a friend about this song. We were watching the movie and sang along with this song for fun.

We both grew up with this movie and we found out that there's a little part that we clearly interpreted differently.

In the first part of the song there are no words. Snow white sings 3 little parts (tunes) and the bird repeats after her.
It's about the 3rd part.

This is how I see it. Snowwhite sings this little melody with the 8 high short notes (the same notes). Then the bird tries to repeat her and uses a little "set-up note" (wich is clearly an octave lower than snowwhite's note) and then repeats her. The first high notes are quite clear, but the last one is flat, and lower than the rest. That is the joke.

This is how my friend sees it. Snowwhite sings this little melody with the high notes, but he claims that she sings 9 notes and that the note that I see as the first note of the bird, is in fact the last note of Snowwhite but then even a few notes higher. To him it sounds higher than her other notes. To me it sounds like a whistle of the bird, and in fact almost an octave lower than snowwhite's other notes.

If that note is in fact Snowwhite it would be very unnatural to me and I can't believe Disney would put in such a strange change of tone wich is too difficult for kids to understand. Besides, it just sounds like a whistle and not like a voice to me ;) And why would Snowwhite's last note be higher and the bird's last note lower then the notes before, when he tries to repeat her? My friend says that's because he probably couldn't reach it so he makes it lower?!

Anyway, here's an example of the clip. It's a foreign language, but the whole first part is the same in every language.
The note I'm talking about is on 00:24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guD-BsVqKeI


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:44 am 
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There's clearly a break between when Snow White stops singing and when the bird starts singing...I don't hear any bad notes or anything...I'd say that your friend is wrong!

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