Disney Princess Criticism - What's Your Opinion?

[blackcauldron85]

...Nothing in the movie suggests she did a big, noble sacrifice. Mulan also went along with an arranged marriage but nobody talks about that. We could say that if there was a scene where she goes "alright, I'll go", but nothing of the sort indicates...Also, honestly, I can't say she's more selfless than most of the Renaissance heroes. I just don't see characters like Quasimodo or Mulan or Tarzan "selfish" compared to her...

I definitely wouldn't say that anyone is "selfish" compared to Aurora. She gets a lot of flack for being "passive" when many feel that's not deserved. But, no, she didn't save a country or bring two warring peoples together, she didn't slay a dragon. As an average lady, I can relate to Aurora. I haven't saved a country, but I have been a dreamer and have made a big sacrifice for another person...

[Disney Duster]

I agree with blackcauldron85 that Snow White was too young and sheltered to think of how to escape bad situations all the time, but she does think of how to get a place to live. I also agree she was thinking of what was best for the dwarfs, though she is bossy, but it's more funny than negative to me that she kind of controls the dwarfs when it's their house. I also agree Cinderella's anger is not a bad thing. I do not know if Cinderella could have found a better life other than with the Tremaines as a paid servant or something, but I do know a good marriage was considered perhaps the only way women could really have a good life in her time period. I also agree Cinderella would have been laughed out of the ball, if she had even been allowed in, had she not worn a proper gown like everyone else. And there is no way her screaming could have been heard all the way from the tallest tower of that huge chateau. I however disagree that Aurora personally chose to put others before herself or even actively chose to be kind to her family though they caused her emotional pain. I think she felt she had no choice but to marry who was chosen for her and I think her wish to be with her biological family overcame any feelings she would have had against them. I suppose that could be a kindness, that she doesn't care her family was going to ruin her life and cared for them anyway, but that could also be a negative, that she actually would still treat those assholes well. I don't know what I would do in her situation. Maybe she assumed if they knew her plight, they would have let her be with he true love after all. But I pretty much agree with thedisneyspirit on her.

[JeanGreyForever]

My responses to the criticisms leveled against each classic princess.

SNOW WHITE
I don't think being bossy is necessarily a bad thing and in fact, I think it's a trait of hers that should be highlighted more since people feel Snow White is such a pushover and spineless anyway. I do agree that Snow White does sort of hijack their house and take over as caretaker by enforcing her rules. I don't blame her though because the dwarfs really weren't hygienic. But I suppose you have to look at it from the point of view that she is a guest in somebody's home and most guests don't suddenly start to order the people who actually live there around.

It's silly to say that she had to be told to run away though by the huntsman in the forest scene. Same with criticizing her naivity, since she's a princess treated like a maid who's lived in her castle her whole life. Not to mention her young age.

CINDERELLA
I don't think her screaming until the grand duke heard her was feasible, because as Jaq and Gus can attest to, that attic was super high up and kept separate from the rest of the household. I doubt he would hear her at all. Maybe if she screamed from the window but even then, her view was of the backyard I think, so I doubt she'd have a vantage point to see him.

AURORA
I don't agree that she doesn't necessarily rebel against her aunts. She's told not to meet a stranger but she does so anyway, and she justifies it by agreeing with Phillip that they've met before (once upon a dream). Then she invites him to her cottage even though she doesn't have the fairies' permission. Also, while it's possible that she didn't run away because she didn't want to hurt her aunts, I think the more likely scenario is that where would she run to. At the cottage, she can't run away from there because that's where Phillip is going to meet her. When she leaves the cottage and arrives at the castle, she probably couldn't run back to the cottage because she's never left the forest before so she wouldn't be able to find her way there. Not to mention, she's seen that her aunts are fairies and they have magic so even if she did try, they'd be able to use magic to stop her from running or find her even if she was successful. I think she just realized it was hopeless at this point, since she was dealing not just with three fairies but the might of her parents, the king and queen, and that the rest of her life would be dictated for her now.

[Disney Duster]

CINDERELLA
I don't think her screaming until the grand duke heard her was feasible, because as Jaq and Gus can attest to, that attic was super high up and kept separate from the rest of the household. I doubt he would hear her at all. Maybe if she screamed from the window but even then, her view was of the backyard I think, so I doubt she'd have a vantage point to see him.

The window in her room did look out to the front of the house, while the window outside her room was to the backyard. Anyway, glad we basically agree on her screaming.

AURORA
I don't agree that she doesn't necessarily rebel against her aunts. She's told not to meet a stranger but she does so anyway, and she justifies it by agreeing with Phillip that they've met before (once upon a dream). Then she invites him to her cottage even though she doesn't have the fairies' permission.

Huh. I never realized that. I guess she was a little rebellious before...she was the opposite of rebellious!

[JeanGreyForever]

CINDERELLA
I don't think her screaming until the grand duke heard her was feasible, because as Jaq and Gus can attest to, that attic was super high up and kept separate from the rest of the household. I doubt he would hear her at all. Maybe if she screamed from the window but even then, her view was of the backyard I think, so I doubt she'd have a vantage point to see him.

The window in her room did look out to the front of the house, while the window outside her room was to the backyard. Anyway, glad we basically agree on her screaming.

AURORA
I don't agree that she doesn't necessarily rebel against her aunts. She's told not to meet a stranger but she does so anyway, and she justifies it by agreeing with Phillip that they've met before (once upon a dream). Then she invites him to her cottage even though she doesn't have the fairies' permission.

Huh. I never realized that. I guess she was a little rebellious before...she was the opposite of rebellious!

Oh ok, I forgot that the windows the birds fly out of to get Bruno is outside of her room. Thanks for the reminder!

Lol, yeah that's why I always do a double take when people say how obedient Aurora is. Even her dreaming of her prince is her way of escaping the restrictions imposed upon her in the best way she can, and she seems almost smug about it when she's telling that to her forest friends.

[Disney Duster]

True. I loved the line "I fooled them!"

[JeanGreyForever]

I found this interesting article about Lindsay Ellis/Nostalgia Chick and how her views on the recent Disney Princesses have changed. It's refreshing to see criticism directed towards the "Revival" princesses, since outside of this forum everyone else seems to find them to be the best characters Disney has ever created.
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-prin ... y-internet

[Farerb]

I found this interesting article about Lindsay Ellis/Nostalgia Chick and how her views on the recent Disney Princesses have changed. It's refreshing to see criticism directed towards the "Revival" princesses, since outside of this forum everyone else seems to find them to be the best characters Disney has ever created.
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-prin ... y-internet

Lindsay says a lot that she realized her old videos contributed to nitpicky media criticism and she wished they never existed and that's why she removed them from her channel.

[Disney Duster]

I had seen Linsday's BatB live-action review, which is what was behind that article, but thanks, I liked reading that article, it made good points, too.

[JeanGreyForever]

Lindsay says a lot that she realized her old videos contributed to nitpicky media criticism and she wished they never existed and that's why she removed them from her channel.

I've never really watched her videos so I wasn't aware that she had such a strong presence that her influence extended to the rampant media criticism that current Disney gets. I really respect her for being vocal enough to regret her actions and take down videos she finds to be problematic now. Makes me want to start watching her since I know a lot of people do.

I had seen Linsday's BatB live-action review, which is what was behind that article, but thanks, I liked reading that article, it made good points, too.

Would you recommend watching that video?

[Farerb]

I personally really like her new videos, they are very insightful. The only one I wouldn't recommend for you is the Pocahontas one since I know you are very fond of the film (she doesn't like it).
Here are her Disney relateded videos:

Hercules:
https://youtu.be/KznZcK7ksf4

Disney Villains:
https://youtu.be/doQB5d3Gggw

Beauty and the Beast (1991):
https://youtu.be/syYCO0QVkZo

Pocahontas, The Emperor's New Groove, Lilo and Stitch, Brother Bear and Moana:
https://youtu.be/2ARX0-AylFI

Mary Poppins and Saving Mr. Banks:
https://youtu.be/w9dCWUuJZLw

The Hunchback of Notre Dame:
https://youtu.be/AIIWy3TZ1eI

Pirates of the Caribbean:
https://youtu.be/TCkl1eGmxTM

Beauty and the Beast (2017):
https://youtu.be/vpUx9DnQUkA

[JeanGreyForever]

I personally really like her new videos, they are very insightful. The only one I wouldn't recommend for you is the Pocahontas one since I know you are very fond of the film (she doesn't like it).
Here are her Disney relateded videos:

Thanks for sharing your recommendations! Haha, yes, I do love Pocahontas but I think I'll give her video a watch anyway. I've seen a lot of other people reference Nostalgia Chick's arguments for why Pocahontas doesn't work so it probably won't be new information for me anyway.

[Disney Duster]

Yes, I would recommend watching her BatB 2017 video. It's insightful and hilarious. What I really like that she brought up is in neither Disney BatB would women reading have been taboo. The fairy tale they're based on originated in a magazine for girls!

[JeanGreyForever]

To be fair, it wasn't taboo in the animated film. Most fairy tales were read in salons and for the upper-class or at least upper middle-class. Belle has moved to a village of what seems to be generally lower-class people so a lot of them wouldn't have much introduction to reading material, and a great deal of them probably wouldn't be very literate. They'd have other worries in their lives than reading so I can understand why they'd look down on her and think she's odd.

The live-action film took this too far by outright "banning" women from reading. I'm assuming to thematically tie in to real-life places today, such as in the Middle East, where girls are discouraged from an education but it just didn't work with the film's setting.

[Disney Duster]

You're right about what way Belle reading was meant to be in the original movie. It's just that people here in the past said about the original it was taboo for women to read and that's why Belle was so great and rebellious or progressive or whatever.

I know Entertainment Weekly said the live-action film was going to be "Deeper. Darker. Relevant", but I never read the whole issue so I have no idea in what ways it was those things except darker. So I don't know if it was trying to be relevant with the reading thing.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

If I should compain about something, it is that they always seem to have a sidekick these days, at least when they are the main character (even if they are not alone in that). It would be nice to see them without sidekicks for a change.

Also found some interesting fact about Disney princesses from George RR Martin:

https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/mov ... er-812203/

“I’m wary of overgeneralizing, since that makes me seem like an idiot — I do recognize that the Middle Ages was hundreds of years long and took place in many different countries — but generally, women didn’t have a lot of rights, and they were used to make marriage alliances. . . . I’m talking highborn women, of course — peasant women had even fewer rights.”

At the same time, he notes, “this is also the era where the whole idea of courtly romance was born — the gallant knight, the princess. In some sense, the Disney-princess archetype is a legacy of the troubadours of the romance era of medieval France.”

[Farerb]

If I should compain about something, it is that they always seem to have a sidekick these days, at least when they are the main character (even if they are not alone in that). It would be nice to see them without sidekicks for a change.

Also found some interesting fact about Disney princesses from George RR Martin:

https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/mov ... er-812203/

“I’m wary of overgeneralizing, since that makes me seem like an idiot — I do recognize that the Middle Ages was hundreds of years long and took place in many different countries — but generally, women didn’t have a lot of rights, and they were used to make marriage alliances. . . . I’m talking highborn women, of course — peasant women had even fewer rights.”

At the same time, he notes, “this is also the era where the whole idea of courtly romance was born — the gallant knight, the princess. In some sense, the Disney-princess archetype is a legacy of the troubadours of the romance era of medieval France.”

George RR Martin is all about deconstructing the fairy tales trope. ASOIAF is a story about stories - Snow White, Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, Robin Hood, etc.. are all featured in ASOIAF. Specifically the "Disney Princess" trope deconstruction can be found in Sansa Stark - "Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow.”
(BTW - Cersei is Rapunzel and she burns her tower: http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/ ... eelings-on)

In addition, George said many times that he likes Disney films, I think his favorites are Pinocchio, Sleeping Beauty and The Little Mermaid.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

George RR Martin is all about deconstructing the fairy tales trope. ASOIAF is a story about stories - Snow White, Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, Robin Hood, etc.. are all featured in ASOIAF. Specifically the "Disney Princess" trope deconstruction can be found in Sansa Stark - "Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow.”
(BTW - Cersei is Rapunzel and she burns her tower: http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/ ... eelings-on)

In addition, George said many times that he likes Disney films, I think his favorites are Pinocchio, Sleeping Beauty and The Little Mermaid.

I like the show, but I hope Disney doesn't end up being that cynical with their own princess.
(And Martin couldn't have done it without re-introducing topics like kings, evil stepmoms (she never gave Jon Snow any love), princesses and castles. For some time the chosen ones used to be poor orphans and pig farmers. Nothing wrong with that, but a return to royal environments shows they still have a lot to offer.)

[Farerb]

I don't think Martin is cynical, I don't think anyone who writes "He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak." like it's a sappy romance novel can be cynical. I think people think that because of the show, which he had nothing to do with it except writing two scripts and being a consultant. I don't care about the show.

Yes, ASOIAF is different from other fantasies because its main characters are nobility, that's why it's so reminiscing of fairy tales. Martin knew how to combine high fantasy elements, fairy tales, "history" and horror into one great epic. In addition ASOIAF is one of the few fantasies who feature a female messianic character. In most fantasies it usually male.

[Mooky]

Here we go again... "Experts"...

NO HAPPY ENDING: Disney’s Beauty and the Beast promotes domestic abuse and Aladdin damages the self-esteem of those with darker skin, experts claim