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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:28 am 
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It doesn't matter how much a film brings if you don't compare it to its budget and make the percentage for the profit.

-Anastasia made 140 dollars with a budget of 50 millions.
-The Prince Of Egypt made 218 millions with a budget of 70 millions.
-The Princess And The Frog made 269 millions with a budget of 105 millions. The film is only a moderate box office success and would be a flop if it wasn't for the international box office.

If you don't see Anastasia as a critically successful then The Princess And The Frog isn't either. Those three films seem to have the same scores from critics and the general audience. Anastasia has a highest score than TPATF from both the audience and the critics.

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It's even more impressive for Anastasia and TPOE because both came out without having the Disney brand attached to them (which is used to attract viewers) and both were made from new studios and yet they managed to make money, get positive reviews and get nominated for both best score and best original song. It's also good to remember that Disney tried to sabotage both films by re-releasing The Little Mermaid to compete against Anastasia and A Bug's Life to compete against The Prince Of Egypt. Both films also ended up having their Broadway musical versions while The Princess And The Frog only received a nomination for best original song for "Almost There" and underperformed at the box office.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:29 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Yeah, lord-of-sith, that's right. But keeping the iconography comes first to me. But I would also argue most people don't think The Princess and the Frog was that good a film and if Disney just made better films with POC characters that would make beloved POC characters.


I think it's a little more complex than "just make a good film with a POC lead." I personally think The Princess and the Frog is a good film, and Moana is excellent. It's not like Disney phoned in either of those films or didn't try their hardest to make modern classics. But still they didn't reach the heights their white contemporaries reached. That's why I think it's a smart move to put a black actress in an already established film they know will be successful, it's much less of a risk. Then when this movie is successful and maybe well received, they will feel better about funding original projects.

And in terms of iconography, a black actress can still have red hair, just like anyone else.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:30 am 
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farerb wrote:
The world where Anastasia made only $140 million and Prince of Egypt made $218.6 million while The Princess and the Frog made $269 million.

Although, to be fair to Anastasia and The Prince of Egypt, those were released at a time when non-Disney animated films didn't bring in massive box-office dollars. At the time, I believe the highest grossing non-Disney animated movie was "Space Jam" with $230 million and that was technically a hybrid. If you look at the '90s, especially the early '90s, Disney's animated movies were often the only ones that did really well, while others tended to pull in low numbers (although ones like Swan Princess, Balto and Cats Don't Dance did manage to find a higher audience on home video).

"The Rugrats Movie" and "The Prince of Egypt" becoming the first non-Disney animated films to make over $100 million at the North American box-office was a big deal at the time. And Fox was pleased enough with Anastasia's performance to continue working with Don Bluth (even if Titan A.E. losing a massive amount of money cut that partnership short).

So Prince of Egypt and Anastasia's grosses probably do look underwhelming when looked at today, but for what they accomplished in the '90s and the place animation was in back then, they were seen as solid enough grosses.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:54 pm 
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The fact that The Prince of Egypt has the lowest critics' score of the three, and it isn't around 95%, is truly mind-breaking. It's easily one of the greatest animated films made, especially from an American company. I agree that Anastasia's and TPoE's soundtracks blow TP&TF's out of the water, but I've never really liked Anastasia overall. It's not a bad movie, but I think TP&TF has better characters, overall, and better animation.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:07 am 
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I remember reading about Anastasia's animation being really poor, too much reliance on rotoscoping, Anastasia's eyes slide all over the place and sometimes the characters' mouth isn't synced property to what they say...

I will say though that it is less awful than a certain "Fisney" film that thinks it's a good idea to waste the audience time with a song about butlers the audience haven't seen previously and wouldn't see again and a song about unimportant princesses coming to a ball. Oh and also Thumbelina.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:43 am 
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Redadoodles, I disagree with needing Brandy's Cinderella to address the race thing just because it had the first Black Cinderella, and the reason is because like I said, they went color-blind for the whole thing. I also feel The Princess and the Frog was perfect in it's subtlety of racism and agree with farerb kids shouldn't always have "because racism" thrown in their face. I also think Disney can cherry pick what they want to show or not, even down to prejudices, all because Beauty and the Beast is a fairy tale. So we just disagree there, too.

Lord-of-sith, I think The Princess and the Frog is pretty good myself, it just doesn't seem the world at large does. And you say putting representation into something more sure to be beloved is exactly my point. Disney is taking no risks, when they should be taking risks. Also, I'm sorry but even race is iconic. Ariel's pale skin with that red hair is iconic as is Tiana's black skin with her beautiful updo.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:23 am 
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I also want to add that I particularly don't put too much stock in Rotten Tomatoes scores, I much rather read reviews from people who actually appreciate animation and not just those that only say "kids will enjoy it", but anyway you can also notice the difference between movies that were made before RT became a thing to those that were made after. Prince of Egypt and Anastasia don't have the same amount of reviews that The Princess and the Frog has. Also notice the actual score (not the percentage) of the films and you'll see that The Princess and the Frog has a higher score, not by much but still...

As for The Prince of Egypt, while I have a lot of appreciation for the film and I even watched it this week for Passover, I can't deny that the characters feel unmemorable and they lack a certain charisma. Compare Moses to Disney's other heroes like Aladdin, Simba, Quasimodo,etc... Or Tzipporah to Jasmine, Esmeralda or Meg (purposefully talking about deuteragonists). I also think that critics felt that it was inappropriate to depict children being murdered so graphically in this kind of film and that might have affected their judgement.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:59 am 
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I like all three films equally, with Anastasia probably being my favorite of the three, but I agree that each has its fair share of issues:

- Anastasia has a great story and characters, fun script full of typical rom-com banters, amazing production design, and some of the best songs and score in an animated musical. It is however marred by its villain who was turned from a dark and menacing presence into an infantilized caricature. If Rasputin had been taken seriously, the movie would have been much stronger.

- The Prince of Egypt is the most mature of the three which comes at the expense of the movie feeling slow at times and the occasional "bad marriage" of drama and comedy, similar to The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Still, it's probably the most ambitious of the three and it shows. The visuals are breathtaking.

- The Princess and the Frog lovely setting, lovely characters, but the story can be all over the place and some of the characters feel underused and/or useless. Humor is sometimes very basic and jokes tend to be explained which is a big no-no. It's unfortunate the first Black princess spends the majority of the movie as a frog, but I don't think it was an intentional bias. I agree with Redadoodles that POC characters seem to be intentionally stripped of flaws in an effort to not offend anyone, which effectively also strips them of personality and humor and makes them boring to most people, and Tiana is a good example (I love her, but the constant work mantra can get tedious after a while). See also Pocahontas. Mulan somehow got away with her clumsiness and awkwardness.

I don't expect fantasy or fairy tale features to be completely realistic or historically accurate, but some adherence to the historical context is preferred. Like, Anastasia features magic and sorcery so I don't think any of the filmmakers were going for some realistic depiction of the October Revolution and the effects on the common folk, but they set the movie in the 1920s and stuck to the sensibilities of the period. Same with The Princess and the Frog, it's a fairy tale first and foremost and not meant to overtly showcase the effects of racism in the 1920s American South, but there are enough not-so-hidden references to how Black people were treated back then, even if they were disguised as something else ("...the woman of your... background"). It happens even now, episode 2 of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier had quite a similar scenario to TPatF's without openly mentioning the R-word. In that sense, I think Anastasia and TPatF did a better job presenting the realities of the setting, and are not completely devoid of historical context, unlike BatB 2017 and Cinderella 2015 with their random and token depiction of POC characters (but those are the least of those movies' problems). That said, I have zero issues with a Black Ariel, and I think it's a step in the right direction to have a POC lead and not as some background extra.

Also, if we say TPatF should have been more open with its depiction of racism, should that kind of criticism extend to other fairy tale films and does it somehow make them "lesser" if they're not completely historically accurate? I mean, nobody complains (nor they should) about Beauty and the Beast completely sidelining the issue of people's discontent with royalty which would eventually lead to the French Revolution.

farerb wrote:
As for The Prince of Egypt, while I have a lot of appreciation for the film and I even watched it this week for Passover, I can't deny that the characters feel unmemorable and they lack a certain charisma. Compare Moses to Disney's other heroes like Aladdin, Simba, Quasimodo,etc... Or Tzipporah to Jasmine, Esmeralda or Meg (purposefully talking about deuteragonists). I also think that critics felt that it was inappropriate to depict children being murdered so graphically in this kind of film and that might have affected their judgement.

I think the absence of charisma as you put has a lot to do with the movie being an adaptation of a Biblical story and it dealing with historical figures, so there were already boundaries to how they would be presented.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:34 am 
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I’ve read every post on here. All I’ll say is movies with Black people don’t have to discuss racism. There is more to life as a Black person than racism or discrimination.

As for Black people in fantasy and/or period films, it is not ridiculous at all. Black people existed back then and weren’t just in Africa or as slaves in the US. Just because you don’t see them in renaissance, baroque, or rococo paintings doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. There’s more to being Black than slavery and colonialism. And btw, the Captain in Cinderella was written to be Black on purpose. It’s in the shooting script.

To me, Ariel’s voice is way more important than what she looks like. There is nothing in the script, nor the fairy tale, that mentions the color of her hair. Black people can have red and blond hair too.

Finally, I have yet to see Cinderella’s live action ballgown or Belle’s live action yellow dress in the parks. The parks will always use the looks of the animated character versus the live action one. I have seen a POC actress be Cinderella at the park. I don’t remember the color of the hair, but the blue dress and style of hair clearly indicated she was Cinderella. The point is they can cast anyone they want for the parks as long as they have indicators that clearly state who the character is supposed to be.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:22 pm 
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tsom wrote:
Finally, I have yet to see Cinderella’s live action ballgown or Belle’s live action yellow dress in the parks. The parks will always use the looks of the animated character versus the live action one. I have seen a POC actress be Cinderella at the park. I don’t remember the color of the hair, but the blue dress and style of hair clearly indicated she was Cinderella. The point is they can cast anyone they want for the parks as long as they have indicators that clearly state who the character is supposed to be.


Yes this is a good point I forgot to address. Every time a character is re-designed for one of these remakes, there is a lot of hand-wringing about what version Disney will use in marketing going forward. Never ever has the live action remake version of a character overtaken the original animated design in marketing beyond the year of a film's release. Granted, this is a bit of a different scenario because this is a very fundamental difference in the character's appearance, but I doubt they change Ariel in the parks or marketing at all. They will probably have more merchandise with an illustrated Hallee Bailey then they might normally with one of these films, but it won't overtake the original, just like none of these have.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:27 pm 
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The reason I don't agree with the whole argument that Tiana was consciously stripped of flaws is that it's said about all the female characters these days, and I also find that argument to be bull. The whole film revolves around Tiana being stuck in the past and being unable to let go, that's more than there is to Moana. I would say Pocahontas overall, too; her only real "flaw" is that she won't be obedient to her father's wishes and marry, which she is presented as being right for not doing. Tiana holding onto the past is just as much a flaw as Ariel being rebellious. Mulan's flaw is being clumsy, and yet I think I've read the "clumsy" flaw being dismissed here when it applies to the newer heroines like Rapunzel and Anna. What is Belle's flaw, for example, or Jasmine's, or any of the Walt princess'? They don't have any that the films themselves acknowledge, but they're from films we grew up with and so we don't question it like we do everything that is new.

Since it was brought up, yes, I do prefer The Swan Princess (and Thumbelina as well) to Anastasia, overall, too, although both films are below TP&TF to me despite having much better soundtracks than that film. I think Thumbelina has the best animation of those four films, with TP&TF close behind. I don't put much stock in RottenTomatoes scores except to mock critics for being out-of-tune with audiences; and sometimes to stick it to Disney, too, when I'm happy that they're getting bad press over something. :lol:

lord-of-sith wrote:
And in terms of iconography, a black actress can still have red hair, just like anyone else.

tsom wrote:
Black people can have red and blond hair too.


Yes, they can, just like a white guy can wear an afro. Anything is possible. And to me it would be stupid. I'm not going to pretend I don't think it would look dumb to have a serious movie set hundreds of years with a Black person that has bright red or ginger hair. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. But if you want to circle this same barn every page in this thread, by all means. :P I'd rather Bailey just kept her hair the way it looks now, they already made the decision to sacrifice accuracy, let's not make it worse by looking horrid, too. Of course, since the film is copying the musical so much, I wouldn't be surprised to find that most of the costumes, the trident, and Ursula's shell look gaudy as all get-up.

You know, it's odd that I remember a lot of people being against a re-creation of the original film's red hair before we even knew Ariel would be Black anyway?

lord-of-sith wrote:
Yes this is a good point I forgot to address. Every time a character is re-designed for one of these remakes, there is a lot of hand-wringing about what version Disney will use in marketing going forward. Never ever has the live action remake version of a character overtaken the original animated design in marketing beyond the year of a film's release. Granted, this is a bit of a different scenario because this is a very fundamental difference in the character's appearance, but I doubt they change Ariel in the parks or marketing at all. They will probably have more merchandise with an illustrated Hallee Bailey then they might normally with one of these films, but it won't overtake the original, just like none of these have.
That's why I said diversity in a case like this is fairly cheap and easy for Disney, not a real effort on their part. The remakes are here today and gone tomorrow, likely to be re-made again a couple of decades later.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:15 pm 
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farerb wrote:
I also want to add that I particularly don't put too much stock in Rotten Tomatoes scores.

Well, that's fine but then by all means please demonstrate how Anastasia is not regarded as a critically acclaimed film. I gave several examples to how it is regarded as one. Is Imdb okay for you ? If it it is, Anastasia is doing very well on there as well or you have beloved critics Siskel and Ebert (who were huge fans of animation) praising the film for its script, characters and action sequences.

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Redadoodles, I disagree with needing Brandy's Cinderella to address the race thing just because it had the first Black Cinderella, and the reason is because like I said, they went color-blind for the whole thing. I also feel The Princess and the Frog was perfect in it's subtlety of racism and agree with farerb kids shouldn't always have "because racism" thrown in their face. I also think Disney can cherry pick what they want to show or not, even down to prejudices, all because Beauty and the Beast is a fairy tale. So we just disagree there, too.


I would agree with the Brandy Cinderella not having to address the race thing at all if it wasn't for the fact that they made a huge deal about it all the way to 2021 when it opened on Disney plus. If you want your audience to overlook the colorblind casting, then don't make a big deal about it in the press.

As for The Princess And The Frog, the fact that the film was in production when Obama was campaigning to become the first black president at the time and had the entire country divided by hate and racism is another reason why I wish the film had a clear racist subplot. Now, once again I'm not saying that it should have been the main theme of the story. Kids can be extremely cruel among them and that's why it could have been a good idea to have a line or two in the film addressing that. Especially when you know that Tiana was redesigned with a lighter skin tone for Ralph Breaks The Internet and Anika Noni Rose herself had to publicly speak out against Disney to have the original design reapplied.
https://www.glamour.com/story/princess- ... itewashing

It's been eleven years since the film opened and the amount of racism hasn't dropped a notch. Just this week, I was recommended this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad86zv5hPaQ

There's so also this video that broke my heart awhile back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pWKWdiV8VQ

These are just examples that demonstrates that subtlety doesn't always work and when a company like Disney decides to make a film like TPATF, it's good to have a clear way to deal with a message like racism. Why ? Because Disney has a huge audience and most kids around the world have access to their films no matter what their background actually are. The only reason I wanted that in the film is because it takes place in the US in a relatively modern setting. It's not like I wanted Moana, Mulan or Raya to deal with it as well.
I remember the Nostalgia Critic panning Pocahontas for its preachy message and saying that kind of story have been done to death (which is not false) but look at what's going on in America right now, it just shows that clearly that message is still needed.

Anyway, At the end of the day, it really comes down to what the viewer likes or doesn't like. For example aside from the whole political message of the film, I am not a fan of the songs and even though "Almost there" is a nice tune, it's not in the same league as the other " I want song" from the other Disney Princesses and it's a very bottom on that list for me.

As for Beauty And The Beast, you can't ask me to believe that homophobia and racism don't exist in that world (fairy tale or not) while sexism does, especially when history clearly demonstrates that at the time women were encouraged to read in France. so, yes indeed we do disagree on this and let's leave it at that.

Disney's Divinity wrote:
You know, it's odd that I remember a lot of people being against a re-creation of the original film's red hair before we even knew Ariel would be Black anyway?


I remember Chloe Grace Moretz getting a LOT (and I do mean a lot) of hate when she announced she would not have red hair for Universal's version of The Little Mermaid... I guess that for most people that's just how the heroine is supposed to look like even though that was just the Disney character that was designed that way and most people are not familiar with Andersen's version which was supposed to be used for the Universal version.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:17 am 
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Redadoodles, I'm sorry but I just disagree with you on pointing out colorblindness needs racism to be addressed in that colorblind world of the movie and that video of that little Black girl is heartbreaking (so much so!) but I think kidd should learn about how to beat racism from real life teachers and not Disney fantasy movies and we just disagree on what Disney needs to portray in even their fantasy live-action remakes. We just gotta agree to disagree. It's ok. I still respect your opinions!

Tsom, actually in the original Little Mermaid fairy tale, it says the mermaid had "white legs". She was white. But honestly I an ok with her being Black with red hair. I'd prefer her white but oh well. Also, Black people were not royals in Europe in the 19th century or earlier, that is why it's so hard to accept a Black Ariel and King Triton, but that is not the problem I have, it's keeping the iconography.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:15 am 
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Especially that Halle looks great with red hair..
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:49 pm 
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She is very pretty. Her being dressed like that makes me wonder about how they might handle the ending of PUS on until Scuttle dresses Ariel.

Redadoodles wrote:

I remember Chloe Grace Moretz getting a LOT (and I do mean a lot) of hate when she announced she would not have red hair for Universal's version of The Little Mermaid... I guess that for most people that's just how the heroine is supposed to look like even though that was just the Disney character that was designed that way and most people are not familiar with Andersen's version which was supposed to be used for the Universal version.

Interesting. I haven't follow other adaptations. Is this the one where William Moseley stars? I remember seeing a preview for that one. And is that the same one where there's a villain that's like Dr. Facilier? :lol: Ariel having red hair was very unique, since I think most people simply assumed a mermaid would have blonde hair (like in Splash). I don't think it would be weird for the mermaid to have black hair; after all, I think some of those designs from when Walt considered adapting the fairy tale featured a black-haired mermaid.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:50 pm 
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No that's another one haha. The one you're referring to is available on Netflix I believe.

Back in 2015, Universal had a faithful adaptation of The Little Mermaid in the works with Sofia Coppola attached to direct the film. However, due to creative differences, Sofia left the project when she realized that the studios wanted it to be a big blockbuster with CGI while she wanted a more intimate and modest film. She actually had in mind to film the mermaid scenes underwater instead of using CGI.
After she dropped out, Chloe Grace Moretz was cast as the heroine and gave a bunch of interviews regarding the project and announced that it would be very faithful to Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale but with a feminist twist as well. However, she also dropped out a few months later when she decided to take a break from acting and the project was shelved since.

A few months ago, I made a compilation of her interviews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QhT1PB-XU0

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:14 pm 
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Redadoodles wrote:
Back in 2015, Universal had a faithful adaptation of The Little Mermaid in the works with Sofia Coppola attached to direct the film. However, due to creative differences, Sofia left the project when she realized that the studios wanted it to be a big blockbuster with CGI while she wanted a more intimate and modest film. She actually had in mind to film the mermaid scenes underwater instead of using CGI.
After she dropped out, Chloe Grace Moretz was cast as the heroine and gave a bunch of interviews regarding the project and announced that it would be very faithful to Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale but with a feminist twist as well. However, she also dropped out a few months later when she decided to take a break from acting and the project was shelved since.

A few months ago, I made a compilation of her interviews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QhT1PB-XU0


I really wish that movie was made :( :( :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I would hav loved to se watch Sofia Coopla would have done with the story,

. Caroline Thompson was also supposed to write the screenplay which would have been a great plus in my book :) .


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:16 pm 
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Redadoodles wrote:
No that's another one haha. The one you're referring to is available on Netflix I believe.

Back in 2015, Universal had a faithful adaptation of The Little Mermaid in the works with Sofia Coppola attached to direct the film. However, due to creative differences, Sofia left the project when she realized that the studios wanted it to be a big blockbuster with CGI while she wanted a more intimate and modest film. She actually had in mind to film the mermaid scenes underwater instead of using CGI.
After she dropped out, Chloe Grace Moretz was cast as the heroine and gave a bunch of interviews regarding the project and announced that it would be very faithful to Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale but with a feminist twist as well. However, she also dropped out a few months later when she decided to take a break from acting and the project was shelved since.

A few months ago, I made a compilation of her interviews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QhT1PB-XU0


She wanted to cast trans model Andreja Pejic as one of Ariel's sister.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:34 am 
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I’m glad they are shooting on a real Island!
https://variety.com/2021/film/news/litt ... 234944756/


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:31 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
TBH, part of me always sort of dreaded another film with a Black princess because I thought that would negatively affect how much prominence (and merch) Tiana would receive as part of the DP line, but I think TP&TF being the Splash Mountain replacement has helped to cement her more now.

I wonder whether the protagonist from the series Iwaju is going to inducted in the DP line or not. Even though it's a sci-fi series, the female lead is wearing a very princess-like dress and with all the criticism about Tiana being the only Black character in the line-up, they might feel pressured to add her too.

Redadoodles wrote:
The Princess And The Frog was doomed from the start because Disney didn't want to receive backlash.

If it was doomed from the start, it wasn't because of the fear of backlash, but because Lasseter was spearheading the project. Everything you seem to dislike about the film stems from his involvement and him imposing his sense of storytelling and aesthetics on the studio. The decision to race-bend a Western fairy tale instead of selecting an African myth, legend or folktale to adapt, the modern, New Orleans setting, the buddy/road trip structure, the Randy Newman music, a female lead who is more "down to earth". All of those elements were his doing.

Redadoodles wrote:
They had to change the heroine's name from Maddy To Tiana and her job from chambermaid to waitress. After changing those details, the creative team hired Oprah as a consultant on the film which is funny because she didn't promote it at all. You think she would when you know how much of a following she has thanks to her talk show.

Most of the changes resulting from the pre-release backlash were for the better, in my opinion. Making her a waitress instead of a chambermaid is more unique and less Cinderella-like, the name Tiana is prettier and more regal than Maddy, having a Latino-coded love interest is more interesting and special than a British white one. The only change I hated was the title. I think it's terrible and it doesn't make any sense. They should have left it The Frog Princess or changed it back to the original fairytale's title The Frog Prince. Calling it Tiana would have been much preferable too.

Redadoodles wrote:
There's also the fact that the setting of the film is too modern and alienates a bit the viewer who is used to Disney Princesses who live in distant time. Now, personally I don't mind the setting because Anastasia takes place during the 20's as well and that film is a masterpiece. However, Anastasia keeps the Broadway musical formula which is absent from TPATF which has a very different kind of music by Randy Newman and is not accessible to all.

The setting and the music did alienate Disney's base. Every Disney fan who was looking forward to the first Black princess and the return of 2D animation was disappointed by the news of Randy Newman's involvement as evidenced by this thread. Like you've said, although Anastasia has a modern setting too, its narrative structure, its music, and its aesthetic made it feel more of a traditional fairy tale set in ye olden times.

Redadoodles wrote:
The fact that Tiana is the first black princess and yet is seen as a frog for most of the film

I think the main character spending most of the running time as an animal would have hurt the film regardless of her race. It seems it's something audiences have a distaste for. Come to think of it, no movie where the lead was transformed into an animal was very successful at the box office.

Redadoodles wrote:
Last but certainly not least, the fact that there are a lot of racist people in America.

While I don't deny this played a part, I highly doubt it was the driving force that caused TPatF to flop in theaters. I think people use racism as an easy cop-out to justify the movie's failure. Did racists not exist when Aladdin, Pocahontas or Mulan were released? Black-led films and TV series have been proved to be very successful despite systemic racism, so it's simplistic for people to solely blame the film's underperformance on that.

Redadoodles wrote:
The Hunchback might have tone issues but overall it's a strong film with unforgettable scenes with some of Disney's finest songs and score.

:up:

Redadoodles wrote:
If you ask people about it, I'm pretty sure most would pick those two over The Princess And The Frog not only because of their stronger stories and characters but especially for the music which is impeccable in both films.

I would too. Even though I quite like TatF, both The Prince of Egypt and Anastasia are superior to it in pretty much every way.

Redadoodles wrote:
I even remember that when I watched it on opening day, I was amazed by it and called it the best Disney animated feature film ever made but later I realized it was only because I had missed 2D animation so much and it was a real treat to have a fairy tale on the big screen again.

I had a similar experience as well. I was so starved of high-quality 2D animation that I was mesmerized by it and kind of gave the film a pass for some of its storytelling issues or elements I usually don't like in animated movies.

Redadoodles wrote:
It doesn't matter how much a film brings if you don't compare it to its budget and make the percentage for the profit. The Princess And The Frog made 269 millions with a budget of 105 millions. The film is only a moderate box office success and would be a flop if it wasn't for the international box office.

Actually, we found out that film's real production budget was $65-$70 million and not $105 as it's stated on Box Office Mojo. That's why some hypothesize that Disney exaggerated the film's under-performance to justify eliminating 2D at the studio altogether.

Redadoodles wrote:
It's also good to remember that Disney tried to sabotage both films by re-releasing The Little Mermaid to compete against Anastasia and A Bug's Life to compete against The Prince of Egypt.

Disney also sabotaged The Swan Princess by re-releasing The Lion King. Disney claimed they did so for the kiddies because there were no animated movies in theaters at the time. I recall that the Swan Princess filmmakers were very offended by that remark.

Mooky wrote:
It is however marred by its villain who was turned from a dark and menacing presence into an infantilized caricature. If Rasputin had been taken seriously, the movie would have been much stronger.

I would also add Bartok to the film's weaknesses. They didn't know what to do with that character. Was he a villain sidekick? Was he a good guy? It got confusing. His attempts at humor didn't mesh well with the rest of the film either. His entire presence was gratuitous, I'd say.

Mooky wrote:
The Prince of Egypt is the most mature of the three which comes at the expense of the movie feeling slow at times and the occasional "bad marriage" of drama and comedy, similar to The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Still, it's probably the most ambitious of the three and it shows. The visuals are breathtaking.

The only "bad marriage" of drama and comedy in The Prince of Egypt was "Playing with the Big Boys". Even by the title you can tell it's silly and ill-fitted. No wonder it got cut from the stage adaptation.

Redadoodles wrote:
Now, once again I'm not saying that it should have been the main theme of the story. Kids can be extremely cruel among them and that's why it could have been a good idea to have a line or two in the film addressing that.

I agree that it should have been addressed a bit more. When I first watched The Princess and the Frog, I found Tiana and Charlotte's relationship odd given the setting and the time period. I got that someone living in her own fairy tale bubble like Charlotte wouldn't be aware of racism or have a problem with befriending a Black girl, but it was weird that no one seemed fazed or bothered by it. It was treated like a very common, mundane thing when it wasn't. I also found strange that Charlotte didn't have any white girlfriends or a social circle of any kind. When you're wealthy and in a position of power people approach you and cling to you even if you aren't actively pursuing such relationships. It would have been interesting to see the interactions between Charlotte's white friends and Tiana, how they treated her and Charlotte's response to that.

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