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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:40 am 
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I thought we were having a discussion about it for the past page. The problem is it often doesn't come across like a person suggesting X-ism wants a discussion, but that they just want to scare people they disagree with into silence because they might be about to break out the R word. I suppose that's how my questions of sexism in the past come across, too, unintentionally, as an attempt to stifle discussion? For better or worse, anything seen as an intimidation tactic usually makes me want to speak more and I'm sure it's the same for others.

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The fact that this is really the first instance of race-bending a character like this in one of these remakes shows how rare it actually is. Are we just supposed to keep casting only white people in every fantasy movie forever because it so happens to be set before the 1900s?
Well, I guess to me, I think that's why it's more important Disney should be making *original* animated films with Black casts. But it doesn't look like they want to do that. They must interpret Black casts as box office poison internally just like they did with hand-drawn animation, considering there hasn't been a film of either kind at WDAS since TP&TF. I think it's very possible that's the reason BTS, because they were going to nix fairy tales and musicals because of how TP&TF fared, too, only Tangled was too far along to just cancel like The Snow Queen was and it received a positive response. No, instead they want to go the cheap and easy route with very little risk on their part of racebending a very popular character like Ariel in a remake that's going to have a very short shelf-life anyway. They can pat themselves on the back for representation without ever having put in any real work for it. I expect this remake of TLM will be remembered about as well as Brandy's Cinderella--less than that, tbh, because that was a unique TV event whereas this is just one remake in a long line of remakes Disney has pumped out. How much more powerful it would be to have a Black male protagonist or more Black princesses in animated films that will have relevance lasting 20+ years or more. The latter especially would be promoted via the Disney Princess line forever, whereas the live-action remake characters are never promoted that way.

I guess I can understand why seeing someone stuck on the “reality” of things like the hair color or how Black people would’ve really been treated in those times makes you think of racism. The reality excuse is often one I see brought up in cases where I interpret something as sexism, too. Like why aren’t we seeing a thirty minute montage of Raya learning how to fight (when we don’t have to see a film explanation of offscreen work in the case of Aladdin’s street wise behavior, Quasimodo’s ability to climb the cathedral to and fro easily, etc., it’s simply assumed by the audience to have happened offscreen before the events of the film), or how a woman like Jasmine wanting to be Sultana would’ve never happened in those times, or how princesses shouldn’t be active or take care of themselves because back then it wasn’t appropriate for a woman to act that way. Or, in TLM's case, Ariel couldn't possibly save herself in the climax because she doesn't have legs like Eric does when he swerves the ship into Ursula; never mind that the scene can be written differently for her to save herself if they tried. Perhaps Ursula throws the trident at her while she's in the whirlpool, Ariel dives just barely out of harm's way, then touches the trident (which then shrinks to Ariel's size because she's the one holding it now), and she shoots Ursula in the face (a giant target is easier to hit that a small one)? I've actually seen alternate takes on Ursula's defeat where Eric shoots Ursula in the face with the trident or throws the trident through her gut, and even one where Sebastian shoots her with the trident (then there's the sequel where Ursula lite, Morgana, is shot by Triton at the end). Why is it so easy to imagine all those male characters--including a crab--doing that, but Ariel can't do the same thing? Supposed historical accuracy and cold reality is often what pops up as a barrier to change or different takes in film, I guess. So I understand why it’s seen that way. I suppose for me I always saw my focus on the red hair in the past as no different from wanting Ursula not to be played by a young and skinny woman like with Gaga/Sherie Scott. McCarthy’s not quite old enough, but at least she’s not a twenty/thirty something. IDK, I think I understand.

It's not like a Black Ariel was some kind of enraging dealbreaker for me though, lol, otherwise I would've swore off ever paying to see this like I did with the Mulan remake when Disney started cozying up to China (including filming where a genocide was taking place). I'll most likely see this film in theaters and buy it on Blu-ray, too, before it's over with.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:34 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
I thought we were having a discussion about it for the past page. The problem is it often doesn't come across like you want a discussion, but that you just want to scare people you disagree with into silence because you might be about to break out the R word. For better or worse, intimidation tactics usually make me want to speak more.


My intention was not to "scare people into silence" but the quote in my last post directly says we shouldn't call stuff like that out. Is that also not allowing for conversation? Sure my initial post could have been read as being on the intense side, but I was immediately called pathetic and shut down by multiple members. How am I the one trying to silence anyone else? I didn't label anyone as racist, just called out some bad-faith criticism that I was seeing. It was taken about as uncharitably as possible.

Disney's Divinity wrote:
I suppose for me I don’t see my focus on the red hair as any different from wanting Ursula not to be played by a young and skinny woman like with Gaga/Sherie Scott. McCarthy’s not quite old enough, but at least she’s not a twenty/thirty something. IDK, I think I understand.


I don't think either of those are particularly apt choices for the role either because of their physique. Again, we are dealing with roles that deviate from the perceived norm. If "white" and "thin" are what is considered conventionally attractive or the "norm" (and, especially in Hollywood, it is), then there will always be roles or opportunities for people who fit that norm. Therefore, it is fine to change a traditionally thin/white role to something else, as it opens up opportunities and visibility that is traditionally lacking. To do it in the other direction is taking away an job from someone lacking in opportunity and giving it to someone who probably always has those opportunities. Giving the role of Ursula to a thin and traditionally beautiful actress isn't something I liked when it happened on Broadway or was being batted around as an option for this movie.

Though Ursula as a villainous character is a little bit of an odd case. Can we celebrate having plus size representation if she's an evil witch? I'd still err on the side of "give a plus size actress the job and opportunity" but it's worth noting.


Last edited by lord-of-sith on Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:36 pm 
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I'm sorry, I had edited my post to soften that wording because I didn't want the "you" to seem as you specifically, but a general you. I've said similar things before myself.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:15 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
I'm sorry, I had edited my post to soften that wording because I didn't want the "you" to seem as you specifically, but a general you. I've said similar things before myself.


I appreciate it. Glad we can find common ground here. It can be very difficult to gauge the tone of posts, so often we take things way more harshly than intended.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:24 pm 
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aaaaanyway, a couple of tidbits I picked up on various fan twitter accounts:

* Ursula will have two songs in the movie. She'll also have a 60 foot clam shell in her lair.
* A total of 5 new songs were recorded, Jonah Hauer-King also recorded suggesting Prince Eric is also singing.
* They'll be filming until well into July this year.
* Apparently they are also scouting location shooting on the Italian island of Sardinia. (It's a STUNNING island!!!) That would probably take place in June and July, in the areas of Santa Teresa di Gallura, Castelsardo and Golfo Aranci

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:08 pm 
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robster16 wrote:
Ursula will have two songs in the movie.

Can you provide a source for that? That's interesting, if true. That would mean the five new songs will be a solo for Ariel, a solo for Eric, a solo for Scuttle, a solo for Ursula and a song (solo? duet? ensemble?) featuring Triton.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:32 pm 
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Do we really need a solo for Scuttle? ... —‘

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:07 pm 
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Redadoodles wrote:
Do we really need a solo for Scuttle?

Of course! How else are we going to force some rapping into the movie? :P

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:08 pm 
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Sotiris wrote:
robster16 wrote:
Ursula will have two songs in the movie.

Can you provide a source for that? That's interesting, if true. That would mean the five new songs will be a solo for Ariel, a solo for Eric, a solo for Scuttle, a solo for Ursula and a song (solo? duet? ensemble?) that features Triton.


Yup, Melissa just confirmed she's getting new songs.

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"I mean it's just, I still kind of can't believe it's happening. Like I've already recorded, you know, I did all my rehearsals in London. I'm going back in about a month to actually get to do the scenes that we rehearsed. It's like, you know, it just never in my life did I think I'd have a 60-foot clamshell and like a couple numbers in a movie, like it's incredible. I'm really excited about it," McCarthy said.


And also new castmates:
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... Jessica Alexander, Russell Balogh, Adrian Christopher, and Emily Coates will also star. Their roles are currently undisclosed.

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/V ... a-20210329


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:14 pm 
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Well, that's interesting they've given Ursula more here. I suppose it'll be a song earlier in the film where "I Want the Good Times Back" was in the musical. So far it definitely sounds like TLM: The Musical: The Movie, unfortunately. I imagine Ariel's, Eric's, and Scuttle's songs will all be in the vein of "BMWD," "Her Voice," and "Human Stuff," with the last song being a halfway re-creation of "If Only (Quartet)." :/

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:58 am 
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Thank you, Redadoodles. Now, you are a very smart guy, but I think you are missing one concept fairy tales sometimes go for. Fantasy color-blindness. Brandy's Cinderella was not meant to be historically accurate or real in any way except emotionally. A Black Queen and White Jewish King could not make a Filipino Prince. It was not supposed to be real at all except in making the audience feel. For the Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast remakes they went a little more real, but again, they were supposed to be fantasies where race didn't matter. Caring about the race is missing the point except in wanting to see iconic visuals stay, which meant white leads and a blue dress and a yellow dress.

Lord-of-sith, you're right about a lot. But I would say Disney should be making original characters who are underepresented races instead, and ones that will be cared about more, just like Disney's Divinity said.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:00 am 
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I think representation matters and diversity is really important these days. I love the fact that a new generation of young girls will get to grow up with a Disney Princess that they recognise parts of themselves in. I can perfectly see both Ariel's as two separate entities based on the same source material. Where it gets slightly confusing to me is in parks and merchandise for instance. Will we have two distinctly different Ariel's on theme park rides and floats etc?! Not that I REALLY care but will or can they live next to each other within the fictional landscape of the theme parks?

I have never particularly cared for the live action re-tellings, but TLM Is pretty special to me and I am really hopeful that they are going to honour this story and movie to the best of their abilities and am really looking forward to it. The team so far sound promising and I am just going to wait and see what they bring us before I pass too much judgement. It makes no sense to analyse everything to death before a single still from the movie is even released...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:25 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Lord-of-sith, you're right about a lot. But I would say Disney should be making original characters who are underepresented races instead, and ones that will be cared about more, just like Disney's Divinity said.


Oh absolutely, and in an ideal world that would be what's happening. But I see the value in taking a character that is already beloved like Ariel, a role that will already receive a lot of attention and fanfare, and giving it to a black actress for visibility. Disney has definitely tried their hand at producing POC leading ladies in the past decade, and unfortunately they aren't as popular with audiences as the white heroines are. I would say the one exception might be Moana, so seems to be already making her place as a favorite of children. I've heard absolutely zero buzz around Raya, and Tiana certainly didn't get the attention that Rapunzel, Ana, and Elsa did. Hopefully her upcoming Disney+ series changes that!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:09 am 
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Yeah, lord-of-sith, that's right. But keeping the iconography comes first to me. But I would also argue most people don't think The Princess and the Frog was that good a film and if Disney just made better films with POC characters that would make beloved POC characters.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:35 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Thank you, Redadoodles. Now, you are a very smart guy, but I think you are missing one concept fairy tales sometimes go for. Fantasy color-blindness. Brandy's Cinderella was not meant to be historically accurate or real in any way except emotionally. A Black Queen and White Jewish King could not make a Filipino Prince. It was not supposed to be real at all except in making the audience feel. For the Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast remakes they went a little more real, but again, they were supposed to be fantasies where race didn't matter. Caring about the race is missing the point except in wanting to see iconic visuals stay, which meant white leads and a blue dress and a yellow dress.


I’m well aware of the colour blind casting and it’s not just for fairy tales or fantasy projects that it is used. One can see that type of casting regularly on Broadway in all kinds of productions.

For the Brandy Cinderella , I don’t have an issue with the concept but it is disappointing as (at the time) it was the first black princess one could see on the screen. Even when the film came out on Disney plus, there were articles that underlined its importance and that’s why I wish there had been something regarding that in the film. It’s disappointing to me but not as much as the lack of commentary in The Princess And The Frog. Tiana could have been white and nothing would have changed in that film. By being terrified of offending people, they made the film as safe as possible and overlooked the race thing almost completely.
Personally, I find Tiana bland and forgettable. They made her boring because they were afraid of offending people. If you take a look at some deleted scenes, she comes across as being way more interesting and lively.

As for Beauty And The Beast, I just think it’s weird to ask the audience to ignore racism and homophobia when there’s a clear anti sexism message throughout the film. Disney can’t pick and choose what makes sense whenever they feel like it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:08 am 
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I don't think that's true. If Tiana had been White, she wouldn't have met Naveen because Charlotte wouldn't have taken her to her room to make her feel better. She'd have had her restaurant in the first thirty minutes of the movie.

I love Tiana and TP&TF, but, leaving that aside, I think the fact that it came at the beginning of the Revival when WDAS was still largely the least relevant animation company at the time and how the film was then pretty much dusted under a rug by Disney until recently when they needed an out for Splash Mountain plays a part in that film's irrelevance. I know Whoopi Goldberg has mocked how Disney sort of exxed that movie out like it never happened on The View before. If Disney really attributes hand-drawn animation as being a chief reason for that film's underperformance (I don't agree with it, but let's assume that's so), you'd think they'd have been willing to give a Black cast in a fairy tale setting another try in a 3D film. TBH, part of me always sort of dreaded another film with a Black princess because I thought that would negatively affect how much prominence (and merch) Tiana would receive as part of the DP line, but I think TP&TF being the Splash Mountain replacement has helped to cement her more now.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:59 am 
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The way the scene was written makes it look like they didn't her want to buy the restaurant because she was poor not because she was black (even though it's because of her race of course). That scene is way too subtle and that's a shame. The Hunchback Of Notre-Dame was bold when it came to that stuff just like The Prince Of Egypt.

The Princess And The Frog was doomed from the start because Disney didn't want to receive backlash. They had to change the heroine's name from Maddy To Tiana and her job from chambermaid to waitress. After changing those details, the creative team hired Oprah as a consultant on the film which is funny because she didn't promote it at all. You think she would when you know how much of a following she has thanks to her talk show.

There's also the fact that the setting of the film is too modern and alienates a bit the viewer who is used to Disney Princesses who live in distant time. Now, personally I don't mind the setting because Anastasia takes place during the 20's as well and that film is a masterpiece. However, Anastasia keeps the broadway musical formula which is absent from TPATF which has a very different kind of music by Randy Newman and is not accessible to all. Then of course, we have the fact that the prince is not white, the fact that 2D was not seen as cool, the fact that Tiana is the first black princess and yet is seen as a frog for most of the film and last but certainly not least, the fact that there are a lot of racist people in America. All those elements explain the film's numbers at the US box-office.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:38 am 
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Despite The Princess and the Frog issues, I actually think it's very underrated. No it's not The Little Mermaid or Aladdin, nor should it be, it tries to do its own thing instead of copy and paste other films. If anything this movie is much more inspired by and reminiscent of Lady and the Tramp, another defined era where two "animals" fall in love, and I honestly don't understand the "not handling racism" critique, can't black kids have their fantasy/fairytale films without "but racism" thrown in their face?

The Princess and the Frog is eventually an old fashioned romantic comedy, which is very different than the style of The Hunchback of Notre Dame or Prince of Egypt, which go for something more epic in scope, though Hunchback pretty much fails to commit to a serious tone, thus making something a little bit incoherent in the process in my opinion, so perhaps The Princess and the Frog is not as ambitious as those films are, but that doesn't necessarily make it less good, at least to me, it's better than Anastasia, and I find it bizarre that people have such a high regard to this film since I find it rather mediocre and just another "Fisney" film who tries to do what Disney did so well in the early 90's, maybe if they got rid of that villain who sings about cockroaches they could have gotten something more decent since the conflict was already there and he wasn't really needed (but they really wanted him I guess cause villains is what Disney does). Though I'll say that my favorite line from that film is how Angela Lansbury reminisces about the good old times where they lived in magnificent palaces and amazing balls and events, she only forgot to mention that people starved outside. I wonder why The Princess and the Frog needed to be more specific about racism instead of only implying it, but it's okay that Anastasia disregarded the poor people that were screwed by the royal family thus causing a revolution instead of pinning it on some evil guy™.

By the way, Hunchback, PoE and Anastasia all disappointed at the box office and TPatF made more than both PoE and Anastasia.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:17 am 
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farerb wrote:
Despite The Princess and the Frog issues, I actually think it's very underrated. No it's not The Little Mermaid or Aladdin, nor should it be, it tries to do its own thing instead of copy and paste other films. If anything this movie is much more inspired by and reminiscent of Lady and the Tramp, another defined era where two "animals" fall in love, and I honestly don't understand the "not handling racism" critique, can't black kids have their fantasy/fairytale films without "but racism" thrown in their face?

The Princess and the Frog is eventually an old fashioned romantic comedy, which is very different than the style of The Hunchback of Notre Dame or Prince of Egypt, which go for something more epic in scope, though Hunchback pretty much fails to commit to a serious tone, thus making something a little bit incoherent in the process in my opinion, so perhaps The Princess and the Frog is not as ambitious as those films are, but that doesn't necessarily make it less good, at least to me, it's better than Anastasia, and I find it bizarre that people have such a high regard to this film since I find it rather mediocre and just another "Fisney" film who tries to do what Disney did so well in the early 90's, maybe if they got rid of that villain who sings about cockroaches they could have gotten something more decent since the conflict was already there and he wasn't really needed (but they really wanted him I guess cause villains is what Disney does). Though I'll say that my favorite line from that film is how Angela Lansbury reminisces about the good old times where they lived in magnificent palaces and amazing balls and events, she only forgot to mention that people starved outside. I wonder why The Princess and the Frog needed to be more specific about racism instead of only implying it, but it's okay that Anastasia disregarded the poor people that were screwed by the royal family thus causing a revolution instead of pinning it on some evil guy™.

By the way, Hunchback, PoE and Anastasia all disappointed at the box office and TPatF made more than both PoE and Anastasia.


The difference is that racism is alive and well today and it would have nice to have a clear reference to it. That's all.
The Hunchback might have tone issues but overall it's a strong film with unforgettable scenes with some of Disney's finest songs and score.
As for The Princess And The Frog, I didn't suggest the film should have had racism as a main theme but a few moments would have made the film more memorable to me, especially when you know how many racists tried to boycott the project.

Anastasia is a film about the lost princess who was a victim and that's a fact. Wether you love or hate Nicholas II and the way he ruled his country, the fact is that Anastasia and her siblings were innocent in the whole story and as for Rasputin, it is well documented that the guy was a psycho and a sexual deviant so I don't mind him being used as a villain (even though he died before the revolution).
Actually, TPATF and Tangled seem to follow the Anastasia formula (story, characters) much more closely than any other Disney fairy tale.

Finally, In what world did The Prince Of Egypt and Anastasia disappoint at the box office ? Both are seen as critical and financial successes and if you ask people about it, I'm pretty sure most would pick those two over The Princess And The Frog not only because of their stronger stories and characters but especially for the music which is impeccable in both films.
Now, I do like The Princess And The Frog but not as much as the other fairy tales by Disney. I even remember that when I watched it on opening day, I was amazed by it and called it the best Disney animated feature film ever made but later I realized it was only because I had missed 2D animation so much and it was a real treat to have a fairy tale on the big screen again.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:34 am 
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The world where Anastasia made only $140 million and Prince of Egypt made $218.6 million while The Princess and the Frog made $269 million. And I don't think Anastasia is that critically acclaimed.

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