The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

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Choose one film for each number.

1. The Princess and the Frog
3
1%
1. The Little Mermaid
33
13%
2. Winnie the Pooh
13
5%
2. The Rescuers Down Under
23
9%
3. Tangled
5
2%
3. Beauty and the Beast
32
13%
4. Wreck-It Ralph
2
1%
4. Aladdin
35
14%
5. Frozen
11
4%
5. The Lion King
25
10%
6. Big Hero 6
8
3%
6. Pocahontas
27
11%
7. Zootopia
10
4%
7. The Hunchback of Notre Dame
25
10%
 
Total votes: 252

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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by dollover »

lord-of-sith wrote: (Heroe, heroine, villain, comedy relief sidekick, parental figure), and tended to follow similar plot structures. They also were a lot alike in tone and overall feel of the movies.
Hero, heroine, villain, comedy relief sidekick, parental figure are in many of the Lasseter movies too, and in many movies in general, so I don't know if I would use those as an example of how the 90's renaissance movies were similar to each other. How were the plot structures in the Renaissance movies similar in a way the Lasseter ones are not?

The Lasseter movies also have the added 'unlikely duo work together' thing and in the case of the princess movies, 'unlikely duo/possible couple going on road trip' thing, which Moana also seems to follow, minus the couple part. This is why I think the Lasseter films, at least the princess ones, are more similar to each other than the Renaissance ones were, though I do think the non princess movies are more unique. I really am getting sick of the buddy road trip movies which also permeate much of the Pixar movies, though I still do enjoy them. I just hope future princess films will deviate from this annoying trope. A road trip once in awhile is ok, but all of them? Not so much.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by Tristy »

dollover wrote:
lord-of-sith wrote: (Heroe, heroine, villain, comedy relief sidekick, parental figure), and tended to follow similar plot structures. They also were a lot alike in tone and overall feel of the movies.
Hero, heroine, villain, comedy relief sidekick, parental figure are in many of the Lasseter movies too, and in many movies in general, so I don't know if I would use those as an example of how the 90's renaissance movies were similar to each other. How were the plot structures in the Renaissance movies similar in a way the Lasseter ones are not?

The Lasseter movies also have the added 'unlikely duo work together' thing and in the case of the princess movies, 'unlikely duo/possible couple going on road trip' thing, which Moana also seems to follow, minus the couple part. This is why I think the Lasseter films, at least the princess ones, are more similar to each other than the Renaissance ones were, though I do think the non princess movies are more unique. I really am getting sick of the buddy road trip movies which also permeate much of the Pixar movies, though I still do enjoy them. I just hope future princess films will deviate from this annoying trope. A road trip once in awhile is ok, but all of them? Not so much.
What I find more annoying is the surprise villain trope. Seriously. It's becoming so redundant it's become easy to figure out who's going to be the main baddy. I miss the ones that are obviously evil and therefore a lot more entertaining. People may say they aren't realistic but let's be honest: Even with its parallels to racism, there is nothing realistic about a movie where animals walk upright, talk and wear clothes.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by Disney's Divinity »

lord-of-sith wrote:I came here to comment more on the eras in general than film vs. film. I mean, how can you even compare Hunchback and Zootopia? Apples and oranges.
I guess you would compare them the same way you do any other two films? :? I'm guessing you have no problem making a ranking of your favorite films, right?
I found it surprising that a prior commenter said they found more variation in the "Renaissance" than in modern-era Disney. While I love the Disney Renaissance films, they did tend to be quite homogenous. Broadway-style musicals with characters that usually fit a typical Disney archetype (Heroe, heroine, villain, comedy relief sidekick, parental figure), and tended to follow similar plot structures. They also were a lot alike in tone and overall feel of the movies.

Modern-era Disney Animation has a LOT of variation. You have classic style fairytales (Frozen, Tangled, I'm guessing Moana), action-fantasies set in the modern world (Wreck-it-Ralph), Comic Book Superheroes (Big Hero 6), and Zootopia doing something different than all of those! Sure the 90s films had some stylistic departures, but that was about it.
Good for you if you feel that way, but I stand by what I said. All of the new films follow a pretty obvious formula the same way the '90s films did. Buddy film after buddy film, with chase climax after chase climax, surprise villains, etc. with occasionally some genre icing on top to differentiate them. Which is made worse by the fact that the formula isn't even Disney's! :lol: It's been carried over from another studio (PIXAR). At least Disney were the trendsetters in the '90s, not the Anastasia's of the world.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by lord-of-sith »

Disney's Divinity wrote:
lord-of-sith wrote:I guess you would compare them the same way you do any other two films? :? I'm guessing you have no problem making a ranking of your favorite films, right?
While I do have a group of my favorite films, I do not have a "ranking" for them. I like the movie Death Becomes Her, but I also like The Fantastic Mr. Fox. I don't have one ranked above the other, because it's a tough comparison.

While you have a point that the new era films have some similarities, I don't think they're nearly as alike as the Renaissance era films. Tangled and The Princess and the Frog didn't have surprise villains. To kind of clarify why I think the Renaissance films are similar, here's the plot structure I'm using:

*opening song introducing the fantasy world of the movie*
*introducing hero/heroine who wants more than the life they've currently got*
*introduce obvious villain whose motivation stems from revenge/greed*
*scene where hero/heroine interact with obvious villain*
*scene where hero/heroine' life is drastically changed, though not the the way they had initially anticipated*
*hero/heroine is assisted by comical sidekicks while adjusting to their new life*
*villain enacts their plan fueled by revenge/greed*
*villain is defeated by the hero/heroine and/or their love interest*

Thrown in at various times you can find "villain song," "comic relief song," and "academy award winning ballad"

Obviously this is a generalization, but pretty much all of the Renaissance movies fit into that structure with little adjustment. I think people just like them more because of nostalgia and that they have a more timeless approach to the art. Not because they're innovative. And, again, I find myself preferring to Renaissance films. The modern era movies just have a lot more to offer than being alleged Pixar rip-offs.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by Sotiris »

Flanger-Hanger wrote:I'm not surprised that this site prefers the musical movie they are nostalgic for.
Translation: "My opinion is the superior, objective one and anyone who believes otherwise is a biased fool blinded by nostalgia!" :roll:
Mooky wrote:There's no doubt in my mind that the string of films released between 1989 and 1999 are, as a whole, much more tonally consistent, visually and aurally impressive, culturally significant and sincere in their overall approach to audiences, with stronger characters, stories and plotting compared to what we have now.
Yep! :)
Disney's Divinity wrote:I’ll throw in that the Renaissance was more daring than the new films. At least we had variations in animation style to distract from formulaic narrative beats (and formulaic narrative beats are also something the new films suffer from, without as many difference to distract from them, imo). I don't see any difference in consistency between this era and that of the '90s, tbh; Lasseter looks at films in just as much of a calculated way as any other studio head.
I couldn't agree more! :up:
dollover wrote:The Lasseter movies also have the added 'unlikely duo work together' thing and in the case of the princess movies, 'unlikely duo/possible couple going on road trip' thing, which Moana also seems to follow, minus the couple part.
I can't stand it either. That trope alone is far more tedious and irksome than any formula of the '90s.
Tristy wrote:What I find more annoying is the surprise villain trope. Seriously. It's becoming so redundant it's become easy to figure out who's going to be the main baddy. I miss the ones that are obviously evil and therefore a lot more entertaining.
Me too! The villains in general under Lasseter have become mundane and forgettable. Most of them aren't even characters anymore; they're plot points used solely as a surprise factor.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by Disney's Divinity »

lord-of-sith: I think using nostalgia as a trump card to combat all arguments is irrational (and insulting), so I'll ignore it.

As for the argument against the '90s being innovative (implying that the new films, which are extensions of the Pixar method, are, which... rotfl ), I'll quote a post I made in an old thread about this, although that discussed the Renaissance in relation to Walt's films:
Me wrote:I think the experimentiation in the '90s mostly revolved around technology. CAPs (or whatever it's called), the ballroom in B&tB, the stampede in TLK, the crowds in Hunchback, the jungle in Tarzan, and the warriors in Mulan all come to mind. Of course, there were also the darker stories and unconventional (for Disney) endings in Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Tarzan; and some newly complex characters, like Frollo and the Beast; stronger and/or more-developed women characters in Ariel, Belle, Pocahontas, Mulan, Megara, etc. I would even say the depiction of male characters excelled, since male characters Walt-era are mostly uninteresting barring a few exceptions. Aladdin's and Hercules's approaches to comedy were also fairly different to most Disney comedies before them. And, of course, the design of the films were put on huge display. While a large number of Walt-era films rely exclusively on the comfortable, round, fairly realistic designs, most of the '90s created a distinct look for each film (Hunchback, Pocahontas, Mulan, Hercules) which extended even to their protagonists.
I think it's laughable to say that the Renaissance films were not innovative when they basically re-defined the way animated films were told. And compared to the new films of the 2010's? How are they innovative when everything about them is stolen from Pixar? The only thing innovative I can think of is the hair in Tangled. Besides that, I can't guess? Pixar pretty much beat Disney to the exploration of 3D and buddy films.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by dollover »

lord-of-sith wrote:
Disney's Divinity wrote:
While I do have a group of my favorite films, I do not have a "ranking" for them. I like the movie Death Becomes Her, but I also like The Fantastic Mr. Fox. I don't have one ranked above the other, because it's a tough comparison.

While you have a point that the new era films have some similarities, I don't think they're nearly as alike as the Renaissance era films. Tangled and The Princess and the Frog didn't have surprise villains. To kind of clarify why I think the Renaissance films are similar, here's the plot structure I'm using:

*opening song introducing the fantasy world of the movie*
*introducing hero/heroine who wants more than the life they've currently got*
*introduce obvious villain whose motivation stems from revenge/greed*
*scene where hero/heroine interact with obvious villain*
*scene where hero/heroine' life is drastically changed, though not the the way they had initially anticipated*
*hero/heroine is assisted by comical sidekicks while adjusting to their new life*
*villain enacts their plan fueled by revenge/greed*
*villain is defeated by the hero/heroine and/or their love interest*

Thrown in at various times you can find "villain song," "comic relief song," and "academy award winning ballad"

Obviously this is a generalization, but pretty much all of the Renaissance movies fit into that structure with little adjustment. I think people just like them more because of nostalgia and that they have a more timeless approach to the art. Not because they're innovative. And, again, I find myself preferring to Renaissance films. The modern era movies just have a lot more to offer than being alleged Pixar rip-offs.
I would agree that the nonprincess Lasseter Disney films may be more different from each other aside from the buddy thing, but all the princess films have most of the above, plus the road trip element.

*opening song introducing the fantasy world of the movie* - Frozen, PatF, from the sounds of it, Moana; also, BatB did not have that, unless you count 'Belle' but in that case you need to count Rapunzel's song too

*introducing hero/heroine who wants more than the life they've currently got* When will my life begin, Almost there, arguably Do you want to build a Snowman or For the first time in Forever

*introduce obvious villain whose motivation stems from revenge/greed* A villain is either an obvious villain or a surprise/not so obvious one, unless there's no villain at all which hasn't happened yet in the Disney movies. I wouldn't say that just because two of the Lasseter Disney movies have an obvious villain and the rest don't, that that is an example of how different they are from each other. And the villains in the Lasseter Disney movies are also motivated by revenge/greed

*scene where hero/heroine interact with obvious villain* Ok, so villain is not always obvious in the Lasseter Disney movies, but again, they're either obvious or they're not, and hero/heroine interacts with villain in just about every movie with a hero and villain, including the Lasseter ones

*scene where hero/heroine' life is drastically changed, though not the the way they had initially anticipated* Most of the Lasseter Disney movies have this too

*hero/heroine is assisted by comical sidekicks while adjusting to their new life* all the Lasseter princess movies also have comical sidekicks

*villain enacts their plan fueled by revenge/greed* most hero/villain movies have this, and so do the Lasseter Disney ones.

*villain is defeated by the hero/heroine and/or their love interest* most movies with a hero and villain have this, and so do the Lasseter ones.

Thrown in at various times you can find "villain song," "comic relief song," and "academy award winning ballad" Patf, Tangled, and Frozen all had at least 2 of those things.

I like the current Disney movies a lot, but in the case of the princess movies, I really don't think they are more different from each other than the Renaissance ones. The non princess ones, maybe. I also feel that Disney was more daring back then, trying different art styles and stories. They tried to deviate from their supposed formula and character designs with movies like Hunchback and Treasure Planet and Atlantis and more. Can't imagine them daring to do something like Hunchback today. It's just that those efforts were much less well received and pretty much marked the end of the Renaissance.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by lord-of-sith »

It seems I've caused a bit of a stir. I want it to be known that I would NEVER claim that my opinions/taste are superior to anyone else's. I respect everyone's opinions here, and I was just trying to offer a different viewpoint. I often see people favor films due to nostalgia, and so I wanted to offer that as a possibility as to why the Renaissance era films seemed highly favored here. Not as a Trump card, and not as an attempt to dismiss anyone's favoring of them as blind. I will reiterate that I myself like them more, primarily due to their more timeless style. However, I often question myself whether nostalgia plays any part in my preference for them. To this day I think that Beauty and the Beast is the best movie Disney has ever made, full stop.

I'm sorry if my opinions came across dismissive or arrogant, but I didn't appreciate my words being twisted to the point of being ignored. I would happily have agreed with everyone so we could go about our merry way, but I felt that there were aspects that weren't being considered. I have tremendous love for many films that have very notable flaws. But I love these films for what they are, flaws and all.

Once again, I never wanted my words to come across as confrontational, I just wanted to join in the conversation!
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

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No worries. :) It’s just that my experience has been that I can usually tell when nostalgia is blinding/filtering my opinion. There are quite a few films I grew up watching, and liking, that I can recognize huge faults with now (like Quest for Camelot, The Swan Princess, etc.) or at least understand why they lack the kind of mass appeal the biggest films achieve (like The Sword in the Stone, Hercules, etc.). I’ve tried to talk about the Renaissance films from an objective viewpoint, weighing flaws (like with the formulaic narratives; various problems with Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Hercules) along with the advantages. I think honestly (outside the sway of nostalgia) the Renaissance was influential in the same way that Pixar has been, as far as other studios following their formula, and that TLM, B&tB, Aladdin, TLK, Tarzan, and Mulan are all unequivocally great films (with the rest of them having great aspects combined with some issues).
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by lord-of-sith »

I agree with everything you just stated! Honestly, I think that a lot of other studios copying the Renaissance formula likely colored my opinion as well. I think it added to the already existing homogeny the films had.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by ce1ticmoon »

I think to an extent, nostalgia can play a role in favoring certain films over others, but in the case of these Renaissance films, I'm sure all of us have been revisiting them fairly frequently up to the present, which I think significantly reduces any nostalgia goggles/filtering effect that may occur. Nostalgia can't really save a bad film, and revisiting old favorites often simply results in the realization that something you liked or thought was good really wasn't that great. That the Renaissance films for the most part hold up perfectly fine as films today (regardless of ones opinion of them) is a testament to their quality. I actually never saw Tarzan until relatively quite recently, and I have no problem ranking it among the rest of the Renaissance films.

I think we all bring biases to the table. Otherwise, we wouldn't really get differing opinions. I really don't think there is really a way to be truly or completely objective when it comes to most art forms. Not to say there isn't any objective criteria that we can use to judge and critique various works, but our experiences and values will inevitably color our opinions one way or another, maybe slightly in some cases, but more significantly in others. We all place different value on different aspects of filmmaking, so obviously different opinions are just inevitable. That's why there's a discussion in the first place.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by Sotiris »

Disney's Divinity wrote:Here's a posting template:

Meet the Robinsons v. The Great Mouse Detective
Bolt v. Oliver & Company
The Princess and the Frog v. The Little Mermaid
Winnie the Pooh v. The Rescuers Down Under
Tangled v. Beauty and the Beast
Wreck-It Ralph v. Aladdin
Frozen v. The Lion King
Big Hero 6 v. Pocahontas
Zootopia v. The Hunchback of Notre Dame
Should we update this with Mulan v. Moana? It's too bad Gigantic got cancelled; we would have had Tarzan v. Gigantic (both male-led, action-adventure musicals).
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by Disney's Divinity »

Is there a way to edit a poll without losing all the votes?

Mulan and Moana would be an easy Mulan win for me. Both films are weak musicals with strong heroines (who both leave home to save their families, incidentally, and both of whom fill their father's shoes--Mulan taking his place as soldier, Moana become the next chief). Mushu is probably the Renaissance character that comes closest to filling the same buddy role you see in the Lasseter films aside from Genie. He's actually pretty similar to Maui, too, as far as the whole selfish-asshole-turned-good-guy arc. As far as being films for strong female characters--Moana becoming chieftess is much more satisfying than Mulan returning to the domestic sphere/marriage at the end.

What is the next original project to come out anyway now that Gigantic is off the table?
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by D82 »

Are the films ordered by release date? Because if that's the case, Moana should be paired with Hercules instead of with Mulan. Also, Tangled was released before Winnie the Pooh, so Tangled would go with The Rescuers Down Under and Winnie the Pooh with Beauty and the Beast. If it's by release date, if it's not, it's OK the way it is.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by Farerb »

In my opinion, on the whole the Renaissance is better. With that being said, I think Moana is better than every film from the Renaissance except Beauty and the Beast. Frozen, Tangled and Zootopia are better than the latter half of the Renaissance except The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by DisneyFan09 »

Sotiris wrote:It's too bad Gigantic got cancelled; we would have had Tarzan v. Gigantic (both male-led, action-adventure musicals).
It's truly a pity that it was cancelled, but I've ranted about it priorly :P. Either way, Tarzan was never a musical in the same vein than it's predecessors, so it's somewhat uncomparable :P

Either way, while the comparisons between the Renaissance and Revival is relevant due to how they've (more than coincidentally) mirrored each other, due to how both era's has been Golden Era's that have followed strikingly similar patterns, it's still evident that Disney has not only taken components from the Renaissance era, but also tried to learn from it's mistakes not being as repetive. No matter how much flack the Revival era has received for being derivative, at least they've managed to diversify their genre's more. And remarkably enough (but not unsurprisingly), the "Princess" movies have been the only ones who've been musicals, that has derived from the Renaissance (one must wonder if John Musker and Ron Clements were aware of making Moana a musical when it initially was about Maui, due to how they've desperately have tried to take her staple from her Princess role :P)

However, being a kid and at the verge of adolescence in the 90's, it's impossible to not look at the Renaissance period with nostalgia (especially for Disney obsessed folks as most of us are). Yet while the Revival era had their perks, I find the Renaissance era to be superior, mostly because it was more compelling and captivating as a whole. Sure, it was quite derivative, yet they've managed to give a decade of stirring films that were shaping their own generation. Their components were still made in a satisfyingly way. And though it's tempting to also bring up Walt's era (which has been automatically labeled as an Golden era for their strengths and placement), at least the Renaissance era was on pair with Walt's era, due to their sheer greatness. A greatness with the Revival era pretty much lacked.
Mooky wrote:And yes, that includes the much-maligned Pocahontas, for no matter how problematic the end product is, it's miles above the blandness and staleness of Big Hero 6.
Well said. Regardless of it's faults, Pocahontas deserves praise for it's strengths, since it has more than one and is equal part of the Renaissance.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by JeanGreyForever »

The Renaissance is still my clear favorite since I love all the films except for The Rescuers Down Under, Hercules, and Mulan. Out of the Revival, I love Wreck-It Ralph and Zootopia whereas my opinion on Frozen changes and I think Moana is nice but overrated. Big Hero 6 is a good movie but not my favorite and I despise Tangled. I'm sure Gigantic would have fallen in the Tangled category for me so I'm glad it was cancelled.

Poor Pocahontas always gets a bad rep but it's one of my personal favs and I consider it to be the Sleeping Beauty of the 90s. A heavy emphasis on animation with style and design as well as music. Perhaps the characters and plotline are a bit dull but the animation and music is enough to elevate the film for me as a true classic. At least Sleeping Beauty isn't snubbed anymore the way it used to be and I wish Pocahontas would get similar treatment although I suppose the race politics makes it a bit more difficult.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by thedisneyspirit »

The Renaissance. All Lasseter Era films have the same plot and characters, only they're cleverly disguised over different designs and messages to trick us well.

Explain how the hardworking optimistic girl, the jerky guy, and the secret villain are all a part of this? At least Belle, Jasmine and Esmeralda weren't the same fucking character with just a different design.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by Disney's Divinity »

D82 wrote:Are the films ordered by release date? Because if that's the case, Moana should be paired with Hercules instead of with Mulan.
You're right. I tried to keep the original films in order of release date. I put WtP and TRDU together because they were both theatrical sequels that are kind of forgotten amidst the bigger movies released.

So Dragon Empire is supposed to be their next original film following Moana, right? That one would be lined up with Mulan then.
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Re: The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

Post by D82 »

Disney's Divinity wrote:I tried to keep the original films in order of release date. I put WtP and TRDU together because they were both theatrical sequels that are kind of forgotten amidst the bigger movies released.
OK, I see. I just asked because I was a bit confused, but it's OK, they don't need to be strictly in order of release date.
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