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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:43 am 
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With each Disney movie released a new song/main theme also exists. In the case of ballads I think we all can agree that A Whole New World is regarded as the best one.

...and Aladdin being my favorite movie I don´t mind :wink: . However, once I heard If I Never Knew You with the 10th Anniversary release of the Pocahontas DVD I was blown away by it. Not only the lyrics are better but the interpretation is outstanding. As such, I´ve come to think that had this song being kept on the movie itself (not left to the credits and let Colors of the Wind-a great song too become the theme) and, to be honest, the movie be better received it would have been the best Disney song.

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:49 am 
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Because they went through the same thing with "Part of Your World," but ended up keeping it in and enhancing the movie, becoming the most popular song from the movie (I think), I'm surprised that they ended up cutting "If I Never Knew You." I agree, it's a very beautiful song. John Smith + Pocahontas are one of my absolute favorite couples, and it's just a beautiful moment. It's a shame it's not included in all releases of the movie.

I think that people who love romantic movies may have been more inclined to see the movie, if they weren't fully convinced before.. maybe word of mouth: "Oh, the movie has the most beautiful love song between the 2 leads, you've got to see it" sort of thing?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:08 am 
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I think the song adds a lot to the film and actually makes it feel more complete, you can hear its theme throughout and usually it's expected to get some sort of "climax" with the theme in the form of the song and it's just missing. Unlike Human Again when it was forcefully added and there's no hint of its theme anywhere, if anything it even ruins the flow of Something There because there's a playoff of Something There in the scene of the Beast's shower.
However I don't think it would have benefited the film critically. Unlike Hunchback, the film is viewed even worse overtime.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:18 am 
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This is one of my favorite Disney songs and my favorite Disney love song for sure. A huge mistake to eliminate the song. I think its inclusion would have helped the film critically with audiences because I hear people all the time being exposed to the 10th Anniversary Edition and say this helped make the relationship of Pocahontas and John Smith click for them, whereas they really didn't feel for the couple before.

Frankly, I think Esmeralda and Phoebus needed something similar to explicitly explain to audiences why Esmeralda doesn't end up with Quasimodo. Something like In a Place of Miracles.

And I also agree that Human Again doesn't really belong in BATB. I really like the song a lot but it does ruin the flow and it's not like the song existed in the score previously unlike If I Never Knew You or Someday.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:30 am 
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Interesting fact, according to the producer, director and translator of the Swedish dub of Pocahontas. "If I never knew you" was in their work copy of the movie. And they translated it but got later information from Disney that it should not be recorded because they had decided to leave it out of the movie for all international releases at the time.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:46 am 
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Wow, I always knew the song was cut towards the end of production but I never realized how last-minute this change actually was.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:05 pm 
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I don't think it would change a lot of the criticisms the film received, but it's interesting to wonder if audiences would've liked it a bit more. I actually wasn't that impressed with the in-film song the first time I saw it (I think when I bought the Masterpiece DVD, was it?), although I had always liked the end credits pop song. I think I just didn't care for Gibson's singing voice and the close-up on Meeko's and Percy's faces. Tbh, though, I thought Pocahontas was popular when I was growing up. Pocahontas and Sleeping Beauty were my sister's favorite films, so maybe the fact that she liked it so much skewed my perception of how most people felt. I remember some people asking if we could watch it in history class for a movie day, which... :lol:

But Whitney Houston singing "Colors of the Wind" is probably the bigger if-only I have with this film. :lol: She would've sounded amazing. I love her on "When You Believe" in The Prince of Egypt, too, so I wouldn't change her decision to work on that film rather than Pocahontas, but would've loved to have her singing a classic Disney theme like that.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:44 pm 
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"If I never knew you" is not a favorite song of mine, but it is one of the VERY rare instances (possibly the only) where I prefer a scene being added to an existing film. I generally don't like modifying films after they are released.

I think it really ties the movie well, it fills in a void... in the theatrical cut, it seems Pocahontas goes into that tent for one minute and leaves... kind of a passing moment. That song really adds a lot to the moment, and I LOVE that we re-visit the reflection in the water motif established in Just Around the Riverbend. I actually find Mel Gibson's singing passable... much better than Emma Watson!

The fully animated 2005 version matches the original animation pretty well, in most shots. It's not perfect.... but much visually than Human Again. And I LOVE the little reprise when John is about to leave!

Also... this was the first time a Disney movie had a song in the end credits and soundtrack that wasn't part of the film. When listening to the soundtrack as a kid, I would think "what the heck is this?? whatever.... skip!". Same thing with "Someday" for Hunchback.

I still think Colors of the Wind would have stood out... it was an anthem about the environment, and not YET ANOTHER romantic ballad. Really sets it apart.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:13 pm 
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Marce82, I think the animation was near completion so they really had no problem finishing that, the parts that weren't complete, I think they just put flashbacks instead, which I don't really like cause well we just saw the film, we remember what happened, also yeah let's reminisce about the one day they spent together.

By the way, my favorite lyrics are:
"I thought our love would be so beautiful
Somehow we made the whole world bright
I never knew that fear and hate could be so strong
All they'd leave us were these whispers in the night
But still my heart is saying we were right"
Something about it is so poignant and true to the real world.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:32 am 
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Yes, the lyrics are really good...

And yeah, i know a lot of the animation was done... I think some of the cleanup wasn't (which you can kinda tell... certain shots the characters aren't as on-model). And most of the flashbacks are to parts of Colors of the Wind... so yeah. Not so great in that regard... but they couldn't really invest a lot on a "special edition", so I forgive :)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:44 am 
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farerb wrote:
Marce82, I think the animation was near completion so they really had no problem finishing that, the parts that weren't complete, I think they just put flashbacks instead, which I don't really like cause well we just saw the film, we remember what happened, also yeah let's reminisce about the one day they spent together.

By the way, my favorite lyrics are:
"I thought our love would be so beautiful
Somehow we made the whole world bright
I never knew that fear and hate could be so strong
All they'd leave us were these whispers in the night
But still my heart is saying we were right"
Something about it is so poignant and true to the real world.

I've heard people speculate about the flashbacks and I remember reading that they were always part of the sequence, not just added to fill in animation in 2005. That there wasn't much they could do visually with that scene with them on the ground so they resorted to flashbacks even when the song was originally created.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:54 am 
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I don't like that they have them flashback to metaphoric and imaginary scenes.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:19 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I've heard people speculate about the flashbacks and I remember reading that they were always part of the sequence, not just added to fill in animation in 2005. That there wasn't much they could do visually with that scene with them on the ground so they resorted to flashbacks even when the song was originally created.

And that might be the answer to why it was eventually cut unlike Part of Your World.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:20 am 
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I agree. It's one of my favourite songs and I think it gives the dramatic arc at the end of the movie a much deeper level. It really enriches the story and it is a shame it was cut and re-cut on the blu-ray. I'll forever mourn the fact that I'll never hear it in Portuguese with the Brazilian voice artists


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:16 pm 
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Re-watching Frozen 2: "Lost In the Woods" reminded me about "If I Never Knew You:" I mean, "Lost In the Woods" uses flashbacks, so it's a shame Disney doesn't accept that treatment for IINKY.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:58 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
Re-watching Frozen 2: "Lost In the Woods" reminded me about "If I Never Knew You:" I mean, "Lost In the Woods" uses flashbacks, so it's a shame Disney doesn't accept that treatment for IINKY.

Disney's standards are lower these days. I like that Kristof got a new song, but that song would have been cut if it was 90's Disney (of course Frozen II would have been a DTV cheapquel).


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:11 am 
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^ That is true...I'm obsessed with that song, so I'm so happy it wasn't cut.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:19 pm 
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I'm not a Kristoff fan at all and I couldn't care less about his subplot but that was one of the better songs of the film and my favorite that doesn't feature Elsa.

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