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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:59 am 
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^To be fair, the movie criticizes her decision as naive and dangerous. What goes against that lesson though is her entering into a relationship afterwards with a guy she's known for like a couple of days. That's the problem with Disney trying to lambaste fairytale tropes of the past. They end up contradicting themselves 'cause that formula is part of its DNA.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:18 am 
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DisneyEra wrote:
So true rotfl
Yeah, and it happens so that the movie can point out the fact that that's a BAD thing. Twitter's clearly full of wannabe "gotchas" that don't make any sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:51 am 
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Even Hades is coming after her!


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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:08 am 
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Well, if a deplorable like James Woods is going after her, that says it all. How dare she advocate a better worldview for women that that of the 1930's!

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:23 am 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
Well, if a deplorable like James Woods is going after her, that says it all. How dare she advocate a better worldview for women that that of the 1930's!

This. :up:


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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:02 am 
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Lol :P

Sorry for my juvenile remark, but Kristen is waaaay too late with this remark.


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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:06 am 
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For goodness sake, this is the silliest thing I have ever heard. It is a FAIRY TALE !

You can bet your bottom dollar that there are millions of powerful, empowered & strong women in the world today that watched Snow White ... Cinderella ... The Little Mermaid ... and yet they all came out just fine and dandy.

I think, personally, twisting a hundreds of year old fairy tale into something to do with the #metoo movement is reaching.


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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:06 pm 
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well guess it wont be long before Hades is "retired" as a character used in Disney merch. Goodbye future Kingdom Hearts appearances as well.

too bad, he was one of my fave villains...

:milkbuds:

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Atlantica wrote:
You can bet your bottom dollar that there are millions of powerful, empowered & strong women in the world today that watched Snow White ... Cinderella ... The Little Mermaid ... and yet they all came out just fine and dandy.
The point being they had diverse depictions and portrayals to grow up with. Snow White’s regressive portrayal of women is less harmful in its impact when children also grow up watching films like TLM, B&tB, Mulan, TP&TF, Moana, Frozen, etc. alongside it, even if it is problematic when judged solely on its own merits. Although I don't think she's tying it into the MeToo movement so much as feminism in general, lbr, the film would fit in that context considering Snow White (the character) is technically 13 years old...

I doubt Hades would ever be ‘retired,' although that wouldn’t bother me at all considering James Woods is a disgrace. I think it’s more likely they’ll just get a new voice actor the way they do for characters when the original is no longer available.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:27 pm 
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Atlantica wrote:
For goodness sake, this is the silliest thing I have ever heard. It is a FAIRY TALE !

You can bet your bottom dollar that there are millions of powerful, empowered & strong women in the world today that watched Snow White ... Cinderella ... The Little Mermaid ... and yet they all came out just fine and dandy.

I think, personally, twisting a hundreds of year old fairy tale into something to do with the #metoo movement is reaching.

Completely agree. It's frustrating the hate that these women and their stories still receive in today's day and age, especially since they aren't nearly as regressive as they're made out to be. Feeding into this mentality only makes them come across as worse. A fairy tale from hundreds of years ago that came out in 1937 will obviously not fit today's standards of feminism, when even films that were deemed "feminist" from a decade ago don't even meet that standard. I wouldn't be surprised if in a decade or two, films like Brave, Frozen, Maleficent, Moana, etc. will get flack because they won't be considered progressive anymore.

And frankly, I really doubt that watching Snow White or The Little Mermaid once will taint a little girl for the rest of her life and brainwash her into a Stepford Wife. No child draws all their influences from one movie.

As for Hades, I'm not really a fan of him, mainly because of James Woods, so I'd be all for him being retired from the role. Frankly, Disney should have done that earlier since he's been embroiled in some very skeezy stuff for some time now.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:20 pm 
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I just think its funny how bold he's being in his tweets. I mean, he is aware of what happened to Gunn. Its like he wants Disney to fire him.

and yes I agree this is a really dumb issue. Snow White is friggin FOLKLORE. OLD WORLD FOLKLORE. If the story bothers some people so much why dont they use it as a chance to teach history or European culture. These stories have much more value than just "this is a story about how girls today should behave." They dont need to be improved upon or banned. Yeeesh.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:41 pm 
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I think the "fairy tale" excuse is just that--an excuse. Whatever the source of the film or the time it was created in, it's being consumed by children of the 21st century. TLM and B&tB also--rightfully--get scrutinized because times change and things are constantly evolving. I consider that a good thing. I wouldn't want to live in a world that was the same as it was when SW&tSD was first made.

A film being criticized, questioned, or reflected upon isn't the same thing as being banned or censored. And I don't think there's any doubt the Snow White film is regressive in ways that have nothing to do with the fairy tale. Namely the character's only focus the entire film being cleaning house and cooking... I haven't read the tale in years, but I'm willing to bet that was a Walt-specific addition to the story.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:11 am 
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I feel like her statement is more hollow than actual criticism. I feel like it's not black and white. Yes, there are problematic messages, but there are also good ones as well. In addition I really hate the trend of bashing Disney princesses and putting them in different standards than the male characters, we don't see people going on about how Peter Pan is a bad role model for boys.


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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Okay, regarding bad faith feminist theory criticism of Disney Princesses, it never jived for me because as a little growing up in the Disney Renaissance era NEVER made me desperate for a man. Do you want to know what it made me desperate? MERCHANDISE

As for Disney princesses themselves, I never wanted their princes as a kid. They had for more exciting stuff about themselves that a 5-year-old naturally is interested. Ariel had beautiful hair, voice and swam in the ocean. She also had an appreciation for ordinary things. (You know, how kids love empty box forts?) For Belle, it was the library. And Jasmine was part of Aladdin's crazy adventures, and as children, she was tired of doing nothing. For Aurora, it was her three fairy-godmothers who raised and rescued her. So even if Disney movies feature a cheesy romance, that's not always going to be in the forefront of your kid's consciousness because a child's world doesn't have to worry about romance and eros-based relationships.

What about you guys? Did a Disney movie EVER make you a weak, oppressed woman?


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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Well, there are just a few steps away from criticizing to censorship. Look at the stuff like the problem with Apu controversy. Things go huge when viral and companies, always wanting good PR, will bow down to the criticisms, even if it leads to characters or creators behind retired or fired. I doubt the princesses and their films will be censored tho. They're too popular and a large part of the Disney history and culture (heck they basically remade the idea of what a princess is for the XX-XXI centuries) at large to get fully rid of- no "into the dumpster with Taron" for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Candy-Bonita95 wrote:
What about you guys? Did a Disney movie EVER make you a weak, oppressed woman?


Nope. I've always thought some of the princes are dreamy, and especially with Aladdin, brave, fun, and adventurous, but I never felt like I was missing out by not having a love interest when I was little...I loved the princesses, like you, for their characters, songs, adventures, etc.!

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:50 pm 
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thedisneyspirit wrote:
Well, there are just a few steps away from criticizing to censorship.
No, there isn't. This depends only on the company's reaction and we already know Disney doesn't care about these kinds of things when there's $$$ at stake if they kept a sexual predator employed for 20 years. Feminist critique doesn't merit this OTT hysteria, but absolutely nothing surprises me anymore after the past couple of years. As far as I know, films haven't been banned for promoting cigarettes yet, despite all the outcry years ago over the certainty that's what would come to pass. At most, you'll get a PSA-type intro. To me, this is like going berserk because fast food restaurants started listing calories on their menus--warning you of possible consequences isn't the same as banning you from eating foods that are bad for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:55 am 
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I don't think Kristen is trying to tie Snow White with the Me Too movement. How?

As for the tale itself, yes, in the original story the dwarfs tell Snow White she must cook and clean for them as payment for hiding her. Walt's addition of Snow White coming up with the idea herself was progressive. And since when is someone liking cooking and cleaning regressive? I know of gay guys who like to do that. Even Tiana loves cooking.

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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:05 pm 
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Back to Kristen's specific comment, I think she's trying too hard to be righteous about limiting media exposure to her children. I grew up with Pentecostals, and they did the same thing prohibiting their children from Disney films cause *insert Frollo GIF* WITCHCRAFT.

But children absorb ideologies drastically differently from adults. Snow White portrays the domestic life as fundamental. And the film language shows that through the cuteness of the house, how happy the dwarves are with Snow. That scene when she makes the pie is so heart-warming because it shows how Snow White is now a family member. Though she's singing about a future wedding, she's making the pie for Grumpy. THOSE are the moments that stuck with me as a kid. OH and the crying scene.

You can't think of the Prince being all rapey because both he and Snow have an unspoken contract of spending their future together (One Song) in a genuine relationship. The rest of the film shows how important it is for Snow White to have a proper family life. She didn't have that as a servant for the Queen.

And the QUEEN, though she looks like a '30s femme fatale, there's this air of fear and intimidation about her that reaches its peak when she turns into a witch. Her transformation is like Beasts transformation which really reveals their true character. If there's any character Kristen Bell should warn to her children, it's the QUEEN. But the film after 8 decades still has the language to strongly convey its message. And not any bad faith criticism is going to change that.

I can imagine the convo with Bell's kids being like this-

Kristen: Oh kids, was it right for the Prince to kiss her without consent?
Children: MOOOOOMMM the witch was so scary!!! :( :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Frozen 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Candy-Bonita95 wrote:
Back to Kristen's specific comment, I think she's trying too hard to be righteous about limiting media exposure to her children. I grew up with Pentecostals, and they did the same thing prohibiting their children from Disney films cause *insert Frollo GIF* WITCHCRAFT.
I don't see wanting your daughter to have positive models growing up anywhere near the same vicinity as people who think Glinda the Good Witch and Harry Potter lead kids to Satan.

Looking back on how I thought of SW as a child, I always thought she was kind of ridiculous, particularly when she scares the daylights out of herself over a bunch of trees. :lol: A lot about SW is better explained by the fact that the character is essentially a child mentally, but I never grasped that when I was a child myself because I assumed she must be older since she rides off to get married and pump out babies at the end of the film. *shrug* Btw, I was never frightened by this movie--or most Disney movies. I doubt most children in 2018 would be.... I remember reading once that a woman had a heart attack in theaters back then over the Wicked Witch of the West, but that's hard to imagine these days when violence has been normalized to the degree it has been.

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