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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:06 pm 
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That is something I've seen from Walt purists and they're technically right about that. The animation in the Walt films, particularly the first five, were unparalleled. The 90s animation is a huge drop in quality particularly BATB. I know a lot of Walt purists here used to complain about how BATB is considered the best animated film (compared to say Pinocchio) when the animation is so crummy. I shouldn't be surprised that people would complain about how heroines like Ariel, Belle, Jasmine, etc. are too empowered and feminist. What I especially love about this era is that even though these heroines were way more progressive than Walt's princesses, they still built upon that legacy and never threw barbs at the classic princesses the way Moana or Frozen actively belittle those films.

I haven't read that or if I did, I clearly don't remember, but you're probably right. I'm fine with what we got as the final opening number anyway, I don't think a sea shanty needs to be a big, booming opening number.

Eric used to be my favorite Disney prince actually. Now it's Phillip and I think part of that was because I realized how underdeveloped Eric is in comparison to other supporting characters from that era.

The soldiers don't get as much flack although they have their issues as well. They honestly don't bother me as much, I think because most of their comedic scenes involve Phoebus so he works with that style of humor. I really don't like the prisoner though. Mainly because "dang it" just feels so anachronistic.

Well I meant more that I think Frozen is as beloved and popular as the 90s films because as a film itself, it felt the most like a 90s film. Excellent music, generally well-done characters, an exciting setting, etc. Did the 90s films generally get more nominations than Frozen did at awards ceremonies? Besides the Best Picture nominations, I mean films like TLM, Aladdin, Pocahontas, and Tarzan which purely won for their music. Frozen got Best Animated Film and that was the first time a WDAS film won that award even if it wasn't nominated for Best Picture in general. Even the 90s films were kept relevant but through TV shows and sequels. TLM, Aladdin, Lion King, Hercules, and Tarzan all got TV shows while all the 90s films got sequels except for Hercules. I wouldn't say the original Frozen isn't talked about much when Disney+ shows that it is trending alongside the sequel. I do think the sequel didn't have as much fanfare or longevity as the original though. TLM and Tarzan also flopped on Broadway but nobody would deny TLM's star power and Tarzan had one of the most successful musicals in Germany afterwards.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:19 am 
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I agree that the 90's heroines were more progressive, but I don't like Cinderella being dismissed so much, she's actually one of the best heroines to come out of Disney IMO. Even Jennifer Lee said that Cinderella was an inspiration to her when she was bullied as a little kid. Cinderella's resilience is something that should be admired even in today's standards.

Yes, I agree that Frozen is the most popular film to come out from Disney since the 90's though I would say that the rest of the Revival is not unpopular.


Last edited by farerb on Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:23 am 
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Thank you for what you said farerb, and yes, maybe it is nostalgia that makes people love these films that they saw in theaters more than any of the Walt ones. Also, the Renaissance films feel very much the generation of the people on this forum.

I wonder...what will the generation after us think of the Renaissance, the Walt Era, and the Revival Era? Will the Revival Era actually be to them what our Renaissance was to us?

Anyway, I really love your discussion, farerb and JeanGreyForever, you both are making great points and I just love reading them.

EDIT: Farerb just posted about Cinderella and I'm so happy you said that! Wow, poor Jennifer Lee! I didn't know she was bullied, and I'm glad she had Cinderella's strength to help her through! That's so awesome!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:29 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Thank you for what you said farerb, and yes, maybe it is nostalgia that makes people love these films that they saw in theaters more than any of the Walt ones. Also, the Renaissance films feel very much the generation of the people on this forum.

I wonder...what will the generation after us think of the Renaissance, the Walt Era, and the Revival Era? Will the Revival Era actually be to them what our Renaissance was to us?

Anyway, I really love your discussion, farerb and JeanGreyForever, you both are making great points and I just love reading them.

EDIT: Farerb just posted about Cinderella and I'm so happy you said that! Wow, poor Jennifer Lee! I didn't know she was bullied, and I'm glad she had Cinderella's strength to help her through! That's so awesome!

She said it on the documentary though I don't remember which episode it was.

Yes, I think today's kids will feel the same about the revival, the same way as we feel about the Renaissance, I can see that in my nephews and nieces.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:39 am 
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farerb wrote:
I agree that the 90's heroines were more progressive, but I don't like Cinderella being dismissed so much, she's actually one of the best heroines to come out of Disney IMO. Even Jennifer Lee said that Cinderella was an inspiration to her when she was bullied as a little kid. Cinderella's resilience is something that should be admired even in today's standards.

Yes, I agree that Frozen is the most popular film to come out from Disney since the 90's though I would say that the rest of the Revival is not unpopular.

Agreed, I've said in other threads that I think Cinderella is a very empowered and feminist character even if most people wouldn't agree. This blog post on Cinderella has said some similar stuff and it's a great read for anyone who wonders how Cinderella could be considered strong or feminist.
https://thegreatdisneymovieride.home.bl ... ella-1950/

That's neat that Jennifer Lee took inspiration in Cinderella's inner strength. One would think she would have been willing to channel more of that to champion other women against a predator like John Lasseter though.

The rest of the Revival isn't unpopular but how much longevity or staying power do most of those films have? I feel like Wreck-It Ralph, Big Hero 6, and Zootopia are all forgotten. Nobody talks about them and for the general public, they were just films that came by and went away with no fanfare like any other studio's films. They have no presence in the Disney Store or Disney Parks either (besides Japan where Baymax is a treasure and Zootopia is beloved). Moana and Tangled have it better and I think they're more firmly set in the public consciousness but I don't know how permanent that will be either.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:41 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Anyway, I really love your discussion, farerb and JeanGreyForever, you both are making great points and I just love reading them.

I'm glad to hear! I'd love to read your thoughts as well.

farerb wrote:
Yes, I think today's kids will feel the same about the revival, the same way as we feel about the Renaissance, I can see that in my nephews and nieces.

Which of the Revival films (besides Frozen) do you think will have the same staying power with future generations the way the Big Four of the Renaissance did?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:14 am 
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But the thing is I don't think the Revival films are comparable to the Big Four of the Renaissance. Those films changed the way the industry, critics and audience view animated films, that they are not just for kids. None of the Revival films did that, including Frozen.

As for the other films, while I don't think any of them are as popular as Frozen, let alone the Big Four Renaissance, it was mentioned by Sotiris in the Zootopia thread that Moana is constantly trending in Disney Plus, now I don't know about other people, but I can see on my surroundings (co workers, family and friends who aren't as big Disney fans as we are) that Moana is more popular among adults than kids.
I also think that the Princess Franchise helps keep Tangled and The Princess and the Frog in the public conscious, and we can see that the first titles to be released on 4K are the Revival films alongside the Big Four of the Renaissance.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:02 am 
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Disney Duster, I've found this. It's in the third episode around minute 28. Here's what she says:
Jennifer Lee wrote:
[...] I talk about about Cinderella being that for me when I was bullied. And I put it on everyday while I was doing homework or I'd have her voice in the background and she was such a good person and it would say "Don't believe the bullies. Don't -- You've got this"

She says that in relation to Anna and The Next Right Thing.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:02 am 
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farerb wrote:
But the thing is I don't think the Revival films are comparable to the Big Four of the Renaissance. Those films changed the way the industry, critics and audience view animated films, that they are not just for kids. None of the Revival films did that, including Frozen.

As for the other films, while I don't think any of them are as popular as Frozen, let alone the Big Four Renaissance, it was mentioned by Sotiris in the Zootopia thread that Moana is constantly trending in Disney Plus, now I don't know about other people, but I can see on my surroundings (co workers, family and friends who aren't as big Disney fans as we are) that Moana is more popular among adults than kids.
I also think that the Princess Franchise helps keep Tangled and The Princess and the Frog in the public conscious, and we can see that the first titles to be released on 4K are the Revival films alongside the Big Four of the Renaissance.

I don't know about critics, but I don't think that worked with audiences and even the industry. Animation is still mainly viewed for children especially amongst parents and kids. Even if the Big 4 had appeal in all quadrants (and I did hear that Tarzan was the first film since The Lion King to have appeal in all four quadrants), audiences weren't willing to believe that every animated film since those four would also be for all ages. It was Pixar that developed the reputation as being the studio that created films that parents and kids could enjoy, and Disney definitely lost that image in the 2000s if it already hadn't lost it in the late 90s. Most people still view Disney as for children even today so that image hasn't been shed at all. And mainstream animated films are still geared towards children so the industry clearly hasn't been revolutionized by that either, Pixar aside.

If Moana is trending on D+ then most likely that means it is trending with children who are watching it rather than adults. I've seen the opposite case with Moana than you have and I think just the box office impact of the film also demonstrates that the film was weak with adults. A film like Sing did better in the U.S. than Moana did and at the end of the day, it's adults who purchase movie tickets and decide to take their kids to a film. Yes, kids demand which film they want to see but somebody has to agree to watch the film with them and Sing was the bigger box office success domestically. And in the DP survey from the UK, it was still the least watched DP film alongside TPATF and that survey was conducted amongst adults if I remember correctly.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:09 am 
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Well, Moana did better in home releases sales than both Zootopia and Sing, and was the fifth most sold title of 2017.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:26 am 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... ted_States
According to Wiki, Moana was actually the best-selling film of 2017, with both DVD and Blu-Ray sales. Zootopia was #3 in 2016 but Zootopia had more sales than Moana. Zootopia sold 4,783,887 units combined while Moana sold 4,394,672 units combined.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:36 am 
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That's weird, because that Wikipedia article takes its info from "The Numbers" website, but that website also lists different data for the sales of these films:
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Moana-(2016)
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Zootopia-(2016)
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Sing-(2016)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:47 am 
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Hmm, that is strange. But it could also be that those sales figures report up to this very day whereas Wiki only reports how well the film did in the year it was released on home video. If that's the case then clearly Zootopia might have sold more units than Moana when both films came out but in the long run, Moana outsold Zootopia. Which might have something to do with Disney not promoting Zootopia after the film came out whereas they didn't completely ignore Moana the last few years. I'm not sure. Moana having more popular music and the LMM connection likely also helped keep the film relevant, not to mention it's an animated "princess" musical.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:54 am 
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But even in that wiki, Moana's revenue was larger than Zootopia's, but it might mean that people mostly bought Zootopia on DVD whereas with Moana, they bought mostly Blu-rays.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:14 am 
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And that fits those links you posted as well. Moana sold a lot more on Blu-Ray than DVD, almost 2x as much. Meanwhile Zootopia sold more DVDs than Blu-Rays but they were both basically about even.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:30 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
Disney Duster wrote:
Anyway, I really love your discussion, farerb and JeanGreyForever, you both are making great points and I just love reading them.

I'm glad to hear! I'd love to read your thoughts as well.

Well, you guys are saying things I already want to say. I just have this to say - I see The Little Mermaid as pioneer, not prototype.

farerb wrote:
Disney Duster, I've found this. It's in the third episode around minute 28. Here's what she says:
Jennifer Lee wrote:
[...] I talk about about Cinderella being that for me when I was bullied. And I put it on everyday while I was doing homework or I'd have her voice in the background and she was such a good person and it would say "Don't believe the bullies. Don't -- You've got this"

She says that in relation to Anna and The Next Right Thing.

Wow, thank you farerb! I'm so happy about that! And look, it helped her grow up to be leader of Disney Animation!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:39 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
JeanGreyForever wrote:
Disney Duster wrote:
Anyway, I really love your discussion, farerb and JeanGreyForever, you both are making great points and I just love reading them.

I'm glad to hear! I'd love to read your thoughts as well.

Well, you guys are saying things I already want to say. I just have this to say - I see The Little Mermaid as pioneer, not prototype.

farerb wrote:
Disney Duster, I've found this. It's in the third episode around minute 28. Here's what she says:
Jennifer Lee wrote:
[...] I talk about about Cinderella being that for me when I was bullied. And I put it on everyday while I was doing homework or I'd have her voice in the background and she was such a good person and it would say "Don't believe the bullies. Don't -- You've got this"

She says that in relation to Anna and The Next Right Thing.

Wow, thank you farerb! I'm so happy about that! And look, it helped her grow up to be leader of Disney Animation!

I see TLM as a pioneering film as well not a prototype. Excellent choice of words.

Well let's hope she gives Cinderella more respect in future films now that she's in charge compared to what Lasseter allowed in WIR2.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:47 am 
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I didn't have a problem with Cindy in WR2. The only thing I think she wouldn't do was break her own glass slipper to cut someone who just appeared before her like a fairy godmother...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:49 am 
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Well, he might have allowed it, but they still chose to keep it after he was gone.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:57 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
I didn't have a problem with Cindy in WR2. The only thing I think she wouldn't do was break her own glass slipper to cut someone who just appeared before her like a fairy godmother...

She had the worst CGI design by far. She looked absolutely dreadful in her ballgown form (her comfy outfit wasn't that bad actually). And the glass slippers meant the world to her and basically saved her life and were a miracle. We saw how happy she was when she learned that even though the spell was broken, her glass slipper hadn't faded away as well. She would never just smash it for no reason like that. It was so OOC like everything else in that film.

farerb wrote:
Well, he might have allowed it, but they still chose to keep it after he was gone.

I'm not sure if she would have had the power to change it but I'm wary of her nevertheless. I don't think she's as feminist and empowered as she claims to be.

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