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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:21 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Yup, here's the source; http://web.archive.org/web/20030605094621/http://www.animated-movies.net/Hercules.html. I find it highly remarkable that John Musker and Ron Clements were interested to work on a sequel, when it was most likely to become a direct to video-cheapquel. But I thought the idea sounded intriguing, though it would've been a callback to the original storyline, that was supposed to be about the Trojan War, anyways.

Thanks for the link. The new design for Philoctetes sounds intriguing although I wonder what prompted that decision. I wonder who the old friend who Hercules wound encounter was supposed to be...can't imagine it would be anyone from the original film. Since Helen of Troy was also meant to be an "old friend," it must have been another new character retconned into Hercules' past. It is interesting that the directors wanted to work on this. Maybe this was back when they thought the film would be a blockbuster hit and the sequel would have been part of the official canon rather than churned out straight to DVD.

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I've noticed that despite that people acknowledge Mulan for it's drama, it's still labeled as a comedy overall. Though Mulan is a pretty even mix of both, it's still labeled for the funny stuff. Many people thought that since both Pocahontas and Hunchback ventured into the drama, that Hercules and Mulan ventured into the comedic realm.

Yes, I remember we talked about this a few times with how the later 90s films tried to clamp down on the drama.

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Yeah, Yzma looked superior in her early designs, at least she does has a fuller look. And I think she could've been a great villain. Well, the fact that Andreas Deja wanted to do Lilo shows his versatility. That he didn't only wanted to do villains, since he made three of the pivotal Renaissance villains in a row (frankly, as a kid I thought it was weird that he didn't supervise Ursula as well). But frankly, I'm not to keen on the design on the humans on Lilo & Stitch, as they look like they came from a Nickelodeon series.

Ursula would be a natural assumption. For some reason, I always thought he did Frollo as well. I know Esmeralda was the character he wanted to do but she was already taken. A pity Deja didn't end up working on Hunchback at the end. As for Stitch, I know Nani's design was designed in parallel to Mulan's. I never found Mulan very pretty but I think they did a much better job on Nani. The film is more cartoony anyway, like Dumbo, so I never had issues with the human character designs. If they were too realistic, they wouldn't mesh well with the alien characters like Stitch, Jumba, Pleakley, Gantu, or the Grand Councilwoman.

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You're welcome. Those articles are truly a must-read for any Kingdom of the Sun-fans.

Agreed :) A while back the outline for Kingdom of the Sun was also posted and that really put the entire story in shape for us. Did you ever see that?

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Thanks for posting that link. I didn't knew that he was behind Treasure Planet, due to how the executives were iffy about it in the first place. But why wouldn't they be? The premise could've been perceived as laughable, no offense.

No offense taken. I'm not sure I would find it laughable as much as I would assume that there would be no appeal to general audiences and it sounds like a box-office flop (let alone box-office disaster).

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Well, I wanted you to see where it's cited that Eisner loved the movie.

That would have been nice to see but it's no biggie. Thanks for trying to show me :)

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Hmmm, okay. Thanks for sharing. The premise sounds intriguing, but why wouldn't you want the film to be like the Tinker Bell franchise?

Oh, I despise the Tinker Bell films! No offense in case you like them but they're very much direct-to-video quality for me and the characters are generally all so bland, especially Tinker Bell herself. I'm not surprised that the franchise was cancelled and in fact, I'm just surprised it was ever as big as it was. The books have far better quality and it's a shame that Disney phased those out for the lackluster films. I know the films had some real fans on these forums though but I was never one of them. They lack world building, depth, character development, and whimsy, all of which can be found in the books. But like I mentioned to you before, if you didn't like the tone of the original Peter Pan novel, the books won't be something you'll enjoy either so you'll probably prefer the movies.

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We used to have and I liked him for being an intelligent guy. Yet I've eventually realized that he used to copy and paste opinions and statements from other users and reviewers. But I've lost touch with him and it's a pity that I have, since I liked discussing Disney and animation with him.

It's possible he was easily influenced by reviewers and whatever they would say, he would take on a similar stance. It's a pity you lost in touch with him though. Perhaps you could try emailing him again after all these years and maybe he'll respond back.

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I've would've love him to do live-action Tarzan remake as well and it would've been a full circle for him for of my aforementioned reasons. It's remarkable that we haven't heard anything about The Jungle Book yet, but I've read that they would explore ideas that were discarded from Walt. Wonder how a sequel to The Lion King will be like, if it's going to be just like Simba's Pride.

I wonder if we'll hear about Favreau working on The Jungle Book 2 now that The Lion King is done. Apparently they considered releasing Simba's Pride theatrically at one point and even for a direct-to-video, they did this huge marketing campaign that was almost on par with their feature films, unlike how Disney treated the rest of the sequels at the time, so clearly they felt the film was of cinematic quality. As such, maybe they could easily adapt it for a live-action sequel.

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Really? Why is that?

I guess visual commentaries like Cine-Explore were always much more interesting to me because you can see conceptual art on screen as well as the talking heads, whereas a regular commentary is just the film playing on screen and then I'm tempted to just watch the film instead. However, I was inspired enough by your question to go ahead and watch two commentaries: the Sleeping Beauty Special Edition DVD one and the Pocahontas 10th Anniversary one. I found both enjoyable and the Pocahontas one in particular sparked many memories of things you've told me in the past. I'll definitely have to check out some more commentaries soon. Are there any you'd recommend in particular?

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Fair enough. I think the sequels of these remakes are more likely to be criticized, due to how they serve as cash grabs (cough, 102 Dalmatians, cough). From what I've seen from the teaser for Maleficent Mistress of Evil, the plot seems just outright ridiculous. I've heard rumors about a sequel to the live action Beauty and the Beast, but I cannot picture the story being continued.

Yeah, Maleficent 2 sounds awful and I have nothing good to say about it, which is pretty much in line with the first film as well. I'm still annoyed that when Disney finally released an art/making of book for Sleeping Beauty, half the content was dedicated to Maleficent! Emma Watson herself mused on ideas for a live-action BATB sequel and how Belle would use the castle library to teach the village children and I think someone else mentioned that Gaston could potentially return or something. I really hope Watson doesn't think that audiences will flock to see a film with her just teaching for the entire duration.

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Dunno, I don't know about the original to know about it.

Oh ok.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Thanks for the link. The new design for Philoctetes sounds intriguing although I wonder what prompted that decision. I wonder who the old friend who Hercules wound encounter was supposed to be...can't imagine it would be anyone from the original film. Since Helen of Troy was also meant to be an "old friend," it must have been another new character retconned into Hercules' past. It is interesting that the directors wanted to work on this. Maybe this was back when they thought the film would be a blockbuster hit and the sequel would have been part of the official canon rather than churned out straight to DVD.

I've would've liked if it was made an actual, theatrical sequel to Hercules, but I wouldn't happen back then. It's remarkable that Hercules never got a cheapquel, since I know some fans were bitter for it. Yet it's perhaps not strange, since it was the lowest grossing film of the 90's.

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Yes, I remember we talked about this a few times with how the later 90s films tried to clamp down on the drama

Yeah, but I think there was a deliberate reson for that. Disney were trying too hard to be po-faced with their films and due to how Pocahontas and Hunchback ventured too much on the dramatic side and were less successful at the Box Office, it wasn't strange that the latest films of that decade went on the comedic side.

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Ursula would be a natural assumption. For some reason, I always thought he did Frollo as well. I know Esmeralda was the character he wanted to do but she was already taken. A pity Deja didn't end up working on Hunchback at the end. As for Stitch, I know Nani's design was designed in parallel to Mulan's. I never found Mulan very pretty but I think they did a much better job on Nani. The film is more cartoony anyway, like Dumbo, so I never had issues with the human character designs. If they were too realistic, they wouldn't mesh well with the alien characters like Stitch, Jumba, Pleakley, Gantu, or the Grand Councilwoman.

Fair enough. I know there are many comparisons between Mulan and Nani and frankly I can see that. In one of the bonus features from Lilo & Stitch, there is a featurette with the comparsions between them. I wonder how Deja would've tackled Esmeralda, since he's never supervised a beautiful lady before (for all I know), but Tony Fucile did a heckuva good job.

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Agreed A while back the outline for Kingdom of the Sun was also posted and that really put the entire story in shape for us. Did you ever see that?

Yup, but we've talked about it before, didn't we? I wish that I saw it back in the late 90's, since I was DYING to see the plot then. As I've said it before, I think they could've fixed certain storypoints, because the story could've been improved. Yet the article that I posted revealed that Mark Dindal's version was the one that resonated with audiences more. I was surprised that Pacha was essentially the main lead, when Manco is the one who goes through the biggest arc. I was surprised that it didn't give Manco any backstory.

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Oh, I despise the Tinker Bell films! No offense in case you like them but they're very much direct-to-video quality for me and the characters are generally all so bland, especially Tinker Bell herself. I'm not surprised that the franchise was cancelled and in fact, I'm just surprised it was ever as big as it was. The books have far better quality and it's a shame that Disney phased those out for the lackluster films. I know the films had some real fans on these forums though but I was never one of them. They lack world building, depth, character development, and whimsy, all of which can be found in the books. But like I mentioned to you before, if you didn't like the tone of the original Peter Pan novel, the books won't be something you'll enjoy either so you'll probably prefer the movies.

Okay, then I'll hate you. Kidding ;) To be honest, I really liked the two first films of Tinker Bell franchise. They were obviously made for a pre-school audience in mind, but there was a certain cuteness and adorability to them that made them appealing. Yes, Tinker Bell herself was sort of bland and generic, yet the following films weren't as mesmerizing as the first ones. It's sort of strange that they were suddenly canceled and though I never saw the last film, I've heard that it wasn't a closure to the universe. It's hard to believe that that franchise isn't existent anymore, since it feels like yesterday.

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It's possible he was easily influenced by reviewers and whatever they would say, he would take on a similar stance. It's a pity you lost in touch with him though. Perhaps you could try emailing him again after all these years and maybe he'll respond back.

I've tried to e-mail him, but he haven't responded.

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I wonder if we'll hear about Favreau working on The Jungle Book 2 now that The Lion King is done. Apparently they considered releasing Simba's Pride theatrically at one point and even for a direct-to-video, they did this huge marketing campaign that was almost on par with their feature films, unlike how Disney treated the rest of the sequels at the time, so clearly they felt the film was of cinematic quality. As such, maybe they could easily adapt it for a live-action sequel.

Well observed! You know what? I've noticed the same thing, that there was a bigger marketing campaign for Simba's Pride than for the other cheapquels and while it's pretty much regarded for being just as akin to the others, there is a bigger fanbase for Simba's Pride than for the others. Perhaps it could be to the success of it's very successful predecessor (duuuh), but otherwise you're right. Wonder if the sequel for The Lion King will essentially be Simba's Pride.

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I guess visual commentaries like Cine-Explore were always much more interesting to me because you can see conceptual art on screen as well as the talking heads, whereas a regular commentary is just the film playing on screen and then I'm tempted to just watch the film instead. However, I was inspired enough by your question to go ahead and watch two commentaries: the Sleeping Beauty Special Edition DVD one and the Pocahontas 10th Anniversary one. I found both enjoyable and the Pocahontas one in particular sparked many memories of things you've told me in the past. I'll definitely have to check out some more commentaries soon. Are there any you'd recommend in particular?

Oh, there are many! The Audio Commentary for Tarzan is splendid and is simply as great as it come! The one for Beauty and the Beast is also brilliant, as is the one for The Lion King. Those for Mermaid and Aladdin are also good. Frankly, it's a pity how Disney has excluded the Audio Commentaries for their animated features. The one for the Pocahontas 10th Anniversary is a good one, while it feels dry in some places, since it's obviously that they haven't seen the film in a while.

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Yeah, Maleficent 2 sounds awful and I have nothing good to say about it, which is pretty much in line with the first film as well. I'm still annoyed that when Disney finally released an art/making of book for Sleeping Beauty, half the content was dedicated to Maleficent! Emma Watson herself mused on ideas for a live-action BATB sequel and how Belle would use the castle library to teach the village children and I think someone else mentioned that Gaston could potentially return or something. I really hope Watson doesn't think that audiences will flock to see a film with her just teaching for the entire duration.

Agreed. To be honest, I was annoyed that there wasn't made an Art/Making of-book The Jungle Book that was about both Walt's version and Jon Favreau's remake, whereas the Art/Making off-book of Beauty and the Beast got updated with it's own segment about the remake, when it could've given a new book. I was also annoyed that the art/making off-book to Sleeping Beauty was dedicated to Maleficent. Yes, I've heard the rumors about Gaston returning, but I'll hope they'll give us a substantial story that is worth to follow.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:59 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I've would've liked if it was made an actual, theatrical sequel to Hercules, but I wouldn't happen back then. It's remarkable that Hercules never got a cheapquel, since I know some fans were bitter for it. Yet it's perhaps not strange, since it was the lowest grossing film of the 90's.
Considering that this was the film that did the worst in the 90s (besides the actual Rescuers sequel), there's no chance at all this would ever have gotten a theatrical sequel when even Lion King or Aladdin didn't get one. At least it had a TV series though and a few episodes were made into a cheapquel basically.

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Yeah, but I think there was a deliberate reson for that. Disney were trying too hard to be po-faced with their films and due to how Pocahontas and Hunchback ventured too much on the dramatic side and were less successful at the Box Office, it wasn't strange that the latest films of that decade went on the comedic side.

Well said.

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Fair enough. I know there are many comparisons between Mulan and Nani and frankly I can see that. In one of the bonus features from Lilo & Stitch, there is a featurette with the comparsions between them. I wonder how Deja would've tackled Esmeralda, since he's never supervised a beautiful lady before (for all I know), but Tony Fucile did a heckuva good job.
Yes, I remember that bonus feature. Yeah, I don't think Deja has done many female characters like that unless you count Queen Narissa lol.

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Yup, but we've talked about it before, didn't we? I wish that I saw it back in the late 90's, since I was DYING to see the plot then. As I've said it before, I think they could've fixed certain storypoints, because the story could've been improved. Yet the article that I posted revealed that Mark Dindal's version was the one that resonated with audiences more. I was surprised that Pacha was essentially the main lead, when Manco is the one who goes through the biggest arc. I was surprised that it didn't give Manco any backstory.
I can't remember if we've discussed it or not. I agree with you that the story sounded promising enough that even with the flaws, they should have just fixed certain issues and continued work rather than dumping it for another script. I guess Manco being stuck as a llama (and he wouldn't have been able to talk) made it difficult to focus on him.

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Okay, then I'll hate you. Kidding ;) To be honest, I really liked the two first films of Tinker Bell franchise. They were obviously made for a pre-school audience in mind, but there was a certain cuteness and adorability to them that made them appealing. Yes, Tinker Bell herself was sort of bland and generic, yet the following films weren't as mesmerizing as the first ones. It's sort of strange that they were suddenly canceled and though I never saw the last film, I've heard that it wasn't a closure to the universe. It's hard to believe that that franchise isn't existent anymore, since it feels like yesterday.
My favorite was the Great Fairy Rescue because of the importance of Vidia and I generally liked the plot most. Pirate Fairy had a lot of hype but it was a waste and I didn't bother with the Legend of the Neverbeast either. I know people thought it would be a finale of sorts but I always had a feeling it was just another random CGI film and wouldn't add to the mythos, let along conclude it.

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I've tried to e-mail him, but he haven't responded.

Aww, that's a shame. Sorry to hear that.

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Well observed! You know what? I've noticed the same thing, that there was a bigger marketing campaign for Simba's Pride than for the other cheapquels and while it's pretty much regarded for being just as akin to the others, there is a bigger fanbase for Simba's Pride than for the others. Perhaps it could be to the success of it's very successful predecessor (duuuh), but otherwise you're right. Wonder if the sequel for The Lion King will essentially be Simba's Pride.
I've always liked Simba's Pride and it had way better animation than most of those early cheapquels, namely the Aladdin ones, BATB, and Pocahontas. You're right that it's generally regarded as one of the better sequels so I wouldn't mind it being remade.

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Oh, there are many! The Audio Commentary for Tarzan is splendid and is simply as great as it come! The one for Beauty and the Beast is also brilliant, as is the one for The Lion King. Those for Mermaid and Aladdin are also good. Frankly, it's a pity how Disney has excluded the Audio Commentaries for their animated features. The one for the Pocahontas 10th Anniversary is a good one, while it feels dry in some places, since it's obviously that they haven't seen the film in a while.
Thanks for the recommendations! I guess I'll need to watch the other 90s films again then. I guess I don't miss the Audio Commentaries much on their newer releases anyway since I'm not a fan of most of the new movies. I'm curious about the Pocahontas laserdisc commentary but I heard one person say that it was incredibly boring and the 10th Anniversary one was way better.

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Agreed. To be honest, I was annoyed that there wasn't made an Art/Making of-book The Jungle Book that was about both Walt's version and Jon Favreau's remake, whereas the Art/Making off-book of Beauty and the Beast got updated with it's own segment about the remake, when it could've given a new book. I was also annoyed that the art/making off-book to Sleeping Beauty was dedicated to Maleficent. Yes, I've heard the rumors about Gaston returning, but I'll hope they'll give us a substantial story that is worth to follow.
I'm really surprised Jungle Book didn't get a new one for either the original or new film. I purposefully bought the older BATB edition without the section on the live-action remake lol. Wish I could do the same for the Sleeping Beauty one.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:19 pm 
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Considering that this (Hercules) was the film that did the worst in the 90s (besides the actual Rescuers sequel), there's no chance at all this would ever have gotten a theatrical sequel when even Lion King or Aladdin didn't get one. At least it had a TV series though and a few episodes were made into a cheapquel basically.

True. But Lindsay Ellis mocked this issue in one of her videos, of why Hercules fans would want a shitty cheapquel for the movie

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Well said.

Thanks :)

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Yes, I remember that bonus feature. Yeah, I don't think Deja has done many female characters like that unless you count Queen Narissa lol.

I know that we've talked about this before, but I could sense that he did Narissa, there was something Deja-esque about her. But I thought that he did her well and she was one of the highlights of the movie. It's a pity how underrated Narissa is, as many people found her annoying in the climax.

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My favorite was the Great Fairy Rescue because of the importance of Vidia and I generally liked the plot most. Pirate Fairy had a lot of hype but it was a waste and I didn't bother with the Legend of the Neverbeast either. I know people thought it would be a finale of sorts but I always had a feeling it was just another random CGI film and wouldn't add to the mythos, let along conclude it.

Yeah, I remember there being a certain hype to Pirate Fairy, but it wasn't the best film of the series. Far from it. It was just okay, though Zarina was a fairly interesting character and frankly well developed for her limited screentime. At least the last Tinker Bell movies were released theatrically, despite having a lower quality. To be honest, I thought Great Fairy Rescue had it's moments, but it wasn't the best of the bunch. But it wasn't because of Vidia, despite how the movie redeemed her character.

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Aww, that's a shame. Sorry to hear that.

Thanks :)

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Thanks for the recommendations! I guess I'll need to watch the other 90s films again then. I guess I don't miss the Audio Commentaries much on their newer releases anyway since I'm not a fan of most of the new movies. I'm curious about the Pocahontas laserdisc commentary but I heard one person say that it was incredibly boring and the 10th Anniversary one was way better.

Really? Where did you hear that? The Audio commentary for the Laserdisc of Pocahontas was okay enough. It was a little lull at some places, but not entirely. The Audio Essay/Commentary that is played over the last side of the disc is better. So you're not a fan of new movies, huh?

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I'm really surprised Jungle Book didn't get a new one for either the original or new film. I purposefully bought the older BATB edition without the section on the live-action remake lol. Wish I could do the same for the Sleeping Beauty one.

Well, to be fair, there was released an Art of-book of Jon Favreau's The Jungle Book. Btw, I recently bought the Art of-book of 2019's The Lion King and it was a lot better than expected. I've always been a little pissed that Disney treats The Lion King inferiorly to Beauty and the Beast, since the former is pretty much Disney's most successful hand drawn film to date and the latter is treated like the pinnacle (sorry, I don't want to sound bitter, but that's how I feel). Yet the Art-of book of The Lion King really revolves around the legacy of the animated movie, which I appreciated.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:53 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
True. But Lindsay Ellis mocked this issue in one of her videos, of why Hercules fans would want a shitty cheapquel for the movie

Lol.

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I know that we've talked about this before, but I could sense that he did Narissa, there was something Deja-esque about her. But I thought that he did her well and she was one of the highlights of the movie. It's a pity how underrated Narissa is, as many people found her annoying in the climax.

I really like Narissa as well so it's a shame she didn't catch on more (or for that matter, Enchanted as a whole itself). I've heard people diss Narissa's puns in the climax but it reminded me of Jafar during his battle scene.

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Yeah, I remember there being a certain hype to Pirate Fairy, but it wasn't the best film of the series. Far from it. It was just okay, though Zarina was a fairly interesting character and frankly well developed for her limited screentime. At least the last Tinker Bell movies were released theatrically, despite having a lower quality. To be honest, I thought Great Fairy Rescue had it's moments, but it wasn't the best of the bunch. But it wasn't because of Vidia, despite how the movie redeemed her character.

I liked Zarina's design but she ended up pretty forgettable. I felt she didn't have nearly as much of an impact on the films as I thought she would have tbh.

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Really? Where did you hear that? The Audio commentary for the Laserdisc of Pocahontas was okay enough. It was a little lull at some places, but not entirely. The Audio Essay/Commentary that is played over the last side of the disc is better. So you're not a fan of new movies, huh?

It was some discussion thread on another website discussing the 10th Anniversary Edition DVD and how the new commentary blew the old one out of the water. That poster mentioned that the old commentary was very dry and not nearly as interesting as the new one so I'm just going off of that.

Yes, lol, most of the new films haven't resonated with me. I loved WIR a lot but the sequel has soured me on it. Frozen I loved at first but it has a lot of problematic elements and weak storyline aspects. Big Hero 6 I enjoyed but I pretty much haven't felt compelled to watch it since it came out on home video. Zootopia I loved as well and it's the film that has aged the best out of the Revival films but Disney hasn't done anything with it, either in merchandise or in the parks. Moana I liked at first but it really was a rehash of earlier films and the characters themselves are also repetitive or in some cases, outright obnoxious or shoehorned in. You know how I feel about WIR2 and Tangled lol. Even with Pixar, I've liked all the main sequels (TS4, Incredibles 2, Finding Dory) but the only original film that resonated with me was Coco. And I'm not looking forward to Onwards either tbh although I'll give it a chance for Tom Holland.

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Well, to be fair, there was released an Art of-book of Jon Favreau's The Jungle Book. Btw, I recently bought the Art of-book of 2019's The Lion King and it was a lot better than expected. I've always been a little pissed that Disney treats The Lion King inferiorly to Beauty and the Beast, since the former is pretty much Disney's most successful hand drawn film to date and the latter is treated like the pinnacle (sorry, I don't want to sound bitter, but that's how I feel). Yet the Art-of book of The Lion King really revolves around the legacy of the animated movie, which I appreciated.

Thanks for telling me about that. I didn't know there was an art book for the live-action Jungle Book. I saw the new Lion King one but I figured it would be like the new Aladdin one which got criticism for not being very in-depth. Yeah, Lion King has been treated pretty terribly on home video between the Platinum DVD and the Diamond Edition Blu-Ray. The original art book too from the 90s apparently wasn't as great as its successors like Pocahontas and Hunchback's art books.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:47 pm 
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I really like Narissa as well so it's a shame she didn't catch on more (or for that matter, Enchanted as a whole itself). I've heard people diss Narissa's puns in the climax but it reminded me of Jafar during his battle scene.

Really? I never thought of that. I know that she was supposed to be like Malificent, which was an inspired choice (despite that her design as a dragon was meh). However, it’s remarkable to have Susan Sarandon in a role and reduce her in the climax.

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I liked Zarina's design but she ended up pretty forgettable. I felt she didn't have nearly as much of an impact on the films as I thought she would have tbh.

Agreed. She wasn't particularly memorable, but she had an interesting struggle. Yet her character was ultimately still utterly bland.

Btw, I saw Legend of the Neverbeast the other day. It was fine enough and had its perks, but it wasn’t the best of the franchise. I liked that it was focused on Fawn, who was my favorites fairy. The ending was surprisingly poignant, yet it was not a closure as it should’ve been.

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It was some discussion thread on another website discussing the 10th Anniversary Edition DVD (Pocahontas) and how the new commentary blew the old one out of the water. That poster mentioned that the old commentary was very dry and not nearly as interesting as the new one so I'm just going off of that.

Well, I disagree with that. I remember reading the opposite, that the old commentary was good, so therefore it made intrigued to check it out.

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Yes, lol, most of the new films haven't resonated with me. I loved WIR a lot but the sequel has soured me on it. Frozen I loved at first but it has a lot of problematic elements and weak storyline aspects. Big Hero 6 I enjoyed but I pretty much haven't felt compelled to watch it since it came out on home video. Zootopia I loved as well and it's the film that has aged the best out of the Revival films but Disney hasn't done anything with it, either in merchandise or in the parks. Moana I liked at first but it really was a rehash of earlier films and the characters themselves are also repetitive or in some cases, outright obnoxious or shoehorned in. You know how I feel about WIR2 and Tangled lol. Even with Pixar, I've liked all the main sequels (TS4, Incredibles 2, Finding Dory) but the only original film that resonated with me was Coco. And I'm not looking forward to Onwards either tbh although I'll give it a chance for Tom Holland.

Okay, but I thought that you meant that you disliked new films in general, not only the Revival ones.

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Thanks for telling me about that. I didn't know there was an art book for the live-action Jungle Book. I saw the new Lion King one but I figured it would be like the new Aladdin one which got criticism for not being very in-depth. Yeah, Lion King has been treated pretty terribly on home video between the Platinum DVD and the Diamond Edition Blu-Ray. The original art book too from the 90s apparently wasn't as great as its successors like Pocahontas and Hunchback's art books.

You’re welcome. And I agree, the art of-book for The Lion King was lackluster. It was a retelling of the story, with little information about the movie otherwise. My favorite Art of-book is the one of Hercules, since it was fun and had fine pictures. The ones of Mulan and Tarzan were not bad either, though I felt that Mulan was more in-depth about storypoints and details.

Speaking of which, I know that I’ve probably mentioned this before, but I find it really intriguing that Tab Murphy (the screenwriter for Tarzan) had initially written a treatment that was closer to Burroughs original novel. Wonder if it meant that it was originally supposed to be a darker story than we got?

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The Aladdin sequels have always received somewhat better reception by the public, although that's really mostly because of Aladdin and the King of Thieves. The Return of Jafar has never been particularly beloved but I think the general premise of the film is what most people are expecting to see anyway in a sequel.

True, but I think there’s a certain affection for The Return of Jafar, since it’s the first of it’s kind, though the affection for Aladdin and the King of Thieves is more understandable, due to it being a more substantial and having a better storyline. The one for Jafar is rather skimpy and has little to do besides making Iago a legit member of the squad.

What do you think about Raya and the Last Dragon? I’m glad that it’s going to explore the South-Asian regions, but I dislike that it’s going to be a fictional mashup. Otherwise, I don’t mind the plot, but it’s a pity that we haven’t gotten any details or more leaks. I find the design to the dragon to be lackluster, as well as the concept art. Wonder if the lead character will resemble Mulan, since that’s the comparison she’ll receive, haha :P


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:00 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Really? I never thought of that. I know that she was supposed to be like Malificent, which was an inspired choice (despite that her design as a dragon was meh). However, it’s remarkable to have Susan Sarandon in a role and reduce her in the climax.

I never really thought about Jafar and Narissa have similarities either since the climax is clearly inspired by Maleficent. However, she does make several puns in the finale which is similar to what Jafar did. I didn't really mind her dragon design since I can see Disney not wanting to create something super scary.

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Agreed. She wasn't particularly memorable, but she had an interesting struggle. Yet her character was ultimately still utterly bland.

Btw, I saw Legend of the Neverbeast the other day. It was fine enough and had its perks, but it wasn’t the best of the franchise. I liked that it was focused on Fawn, who was my favorites fairy. The ending was surprisingly poignant, yet it was not a closure as it should’ve been.

Yeah, I heard it doesn't provide closure as a final film to the series.

It's interesting how most of the fairies had their own film of sorts. Terrence gets Tinker Bell and the Lost Treasure, Vidia has Tinker Bell and the Great Fairy Rescue, Silvermist gets The Secret of the Wings, Zarina gets The Pirate Fairy, and Fawn gets Legend of the Neverbeast. Even Rosetta gets the TV special Pixie Hollow Games, which I think was meant to be a full-fledged movie at one point. The only main fairies without a huge focus were Iridessa and Silvermist. Silvermist was always my fav besides Vidia.

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Well, I disagree with that. I remember reading the opposite, that the old commentary was good, so therefore it made intrigued to check it out.

You own the laserdisc right? What are major bonus features on the laserdisc that didn't get ported over to the 10th Anniversary Edition?

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Okay, but I thought that you meant that you disliked new films in general, not only the Revival ones.

Mainly the Revival films because they are Disney films trying too hard to be Pixar ones. Pixar films can and should follow the formula but shoehorning magical and fantastical Disney characters into that formula doesn't mesh as well.

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You’re welcome. And I agree, the art of-book for The Lion King was lackluster. It was a retelling of the story, with little information about the movie otherwise. My favorite Art of-book is the one of Hercules, since it was fun and had fine pictures. The ones of Mulan and Tarzan were not bad either, though I felt that Mulan was more in-depth about storypoints and details.

Speaking of which, I know that I’ve probably mentioned this before, but I find it really intriguing that Tab Murphy (the screenwriter for Tarzan) had initially written a treatment that was closer to Burroughs original novel. Wonder if it meant that it was originally supposed to be a darker story than we got?

Thanks for the info. I'm guessing that the Tarzan art book doesn't talk too much then about Tab Murphy's earlier treatment. The Collector's Edition DVD doesn't go into anything like that either. Maybe it's in Mouse Under the Glass since that does a good job of talking about early story drafts. I'll check it out and let you know.

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True, but I think there’s a certain affection for The Return of Jafar, since it’s the first of it’s kind, though the affection for Aladdin and the King of Thieves is more understandable, due to it being a more substantial and having a better storyline. The one for Jafar is rather skimpy and has little to do besides making Iago a legit member of the squad.

What do you think about Raya and the Last Dragon? I’m glad that it’s going to explore the South-Asian regions, but I dislike that it’s going to be a fictional mashup. Otherwise, I don’t mind the plot, but it’s a pity that we haven’t gotten any details or more leaks. I find the design to the dragon to be lackluster, as well as the concept art. Wonder if the lead character will resemble Mulan, since that’s the comparison she’ll receive, haha :P

Definitely agree with everything you said.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of mashing up cultures either. I can see why they did it though since the live-action Mulan is already getting flack from the Chinese for not being culturally accurate enough. The premise of Raya seems interesting but I need to see more of the supporting cast (including potential villains) to know more. I find Awkwafina super overrated but Disney has been including her in literally everything recently.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:04 pm 
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It's interesting how most of the fairies had their own film of sorts. Terrence gets Tinker Bell and the Lost Treasure, Vidia has Tinker Bell and the Great Fairy Rescue, Silvermist gets The Secret of the Wings, Zarina gets The Pirate Fairy, and Fawn gets Legend of the Neverbeast. Even Rosetta gets the TV special Pixie Hollow Games, which I think was meant to be a full-fledged movie at one point. The only main fairies without a huge focus were Iridessa and Silvermist. Silvermist was always my fav besides Vidia.

True, but that was to be expected, to be honest. Since there were so many movies, it wasn’t strange that most of the fairies got each movies. Though truth to be told, at least Terrence’s role in The Lost Treasure made sense, since he was the only male fairy that in the squad and a potential love interest to our dear Tink (though their dynamic is just treated as a friendship). I’ve never seen The Pixie Hollow Games special, though, but I guessed that it was just mindless fluff (and frankly, I was getting a little tired of the franchise at the time). Otherwise, I liked some of the shorts and featurettes that were eventually made.

Why did you like Silvermist?

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You own the (Pocahontas) laserdisc right? What are major bonus features on the laserdisc that didn't get ported over to the 10th Anniversary Edition?

Well, there are a couple; The aforementioned Audio Commentary, plus another commentary that gets played over the Supplement Features on Disc 4 (which is more recommendable). Otherwise, there is a commercial for the Pocahontas Animation Discovery Tour and some general information that is written about the movie. There are plenty of storyboards for scenes, a test of Pocahontas running, a test of John Smith being shirtless and a deleted scene of Meeko and Percy closing their eyes during their final kiss. Otherwise, there are some commentaries for the deleted scenes. As well as an early storyboard version of Colors of the Wind, a test animation of Ratcliffe, the reprise for If I Never Knew You. It’s truly a goldmine for any Pocahontas fan.

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Mainly the Revival films because they are Disney films trying too hard to be Pixar ones. Pixar films can and should follow the formula but shoehorning magical and fantastical Disney characters into that formula doesn't mesh as well.

Well said and agreed. But remember that there are naysayers who truly believe that the Pixar formula is absolutely foolproof and perfect as it is.

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Thanks for the info. I'm guessing that the Tarzan art book doesn't talk too much then about Tab Murphy's earlier treatment. The Collector's Edition DVD doesn't go into anything like that either. Maybe it's in Mouse Under the Glass since that does a good job of talking about early story drafts. I'll check it out and let you know.

No thank you, I have the book myself and it says very little about the original draft. Btw, that book is certainly a must read for any Hunchback -fan, since it has information about Hunchback that cannot be found elsewhere.

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Yeah, I'm not a fan of mashing up cultures either. I can see why they did it though since the live-action Mulan is already getting flack from the Chinese for not being culturally accurate enough. The premise of Raya seems interesting but I need to see more of the supporting cast (including potential villains) to know more. I find Awkwafina super overrated but Disney has been including her in literally everything recently.

I don’t know anything about Awkwafina, but I wonder how authentic Raya is going to be towards South-Asian cultures. Btw, it’s a pity that we haven’t seen any new character designs and such.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:28 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
True, but that was to be expected, to be honest. Since there were so many movies, it wasn’t strange that most of the fairies got each movies. Though truth to be told, at least Terrence’s role in The Lost Treasure made sense, since he was the only male fairy that in the squad and a potential love interest to our dear Tink (though their dynamic is just treated as a friendship). I’ve never seen The Pixie Hollow Games special, though, but I guessed that it was just mindless fluff (and frankly, I was getting a little tired of the franchise at the time). Otherwise, I liked some of the shorts and featurettes that were eventually made.

Why did you like Silvermist?
Yeah, I doubt the Pixie Hollow Games was much anything special because I never heard anyone talk about it. I liked Silvermist because her element was water, which is my favorite, plus her appearance with the long, straight black hair and the light blue dress.

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Well, there are a couple; The aforementioned Audio Commentary, plus another commentary that gets played over the Supplement Features on Disc 4 (which is more recommendable). Otherwise, there is a commercial for the Pocahontas Animation Discovery Tour and some general information that is written about the movie. There are plenty of storyboards for scenes, a test of Pocahontas running, a test of John Smith being shirtless and a deleted scene of Meeko and Percy closing their eyes during their final kiss. Otherwise, there are some commentaries for the deleted scenes. As well as an early storyboard version of Colors of the Wind, a test animation of Ratcliffe, the reprise for If I Never Knew You. It’s truly a goldmine for any Pocahontas fan.
Thank you for all the info! I really wish I had the laserdisc then, especially since I've always wanted to see the shirtless John Smith scene that everyone seems to talk about. Just to clarify (again lol), this scene occurs during the waterfall when John Smith first sees Pocahontas? I used to be under the impression that shirtless John Smith was supposed to be saved for the end after he's injured and being led away.

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Well said and agreed. But remember that there are naysayers who truly believe that the Pixar formula is absolutely foolproof and perfect as it is.
I just hope with Lasseter gone now that the formula will be toned down and given a break. Doesn't seem likely from what we've seen of Raya though.

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No thank you, I have the book myself and it says very little about the original draft. Btw, that book is certainly a must read for any Hunchback -fan, since it has information about Hunchback that cannot be found elsewhere.
Oh ok, strange then that there isn't much about that Tarzan draft. Sorry for not being much of a help. Yes, that book is a goldmine, not just for Hunchback, but for most of the films included in there. Aladdin I think has one of the longest sections, probably because it went through so many changes.

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I don’t know anything about Awkwafina, but I wonder how authentic Raya is going to be towards South-Asian cultures. Btw, it’s a pity that we haven’t seen any new character designs and such.

Disney will claim there is nothing to be authentic to (culture-wise) because Raya mixes up different Southeast Asian cultures rather than just picks one. Like they did with Moana or Elena specifically so different groups couldn't complain that their countries/cultures were not represented.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:31 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
Yeah, I doubt the Pixie Hollow Games was much anything special because I never heard anyone talk about it. I liked Silvermist because her element was water, which is my favorite, plus her appearance with the long, straight black hair and the light blue dress.

Okay. To be honest, I found most of the fairies to be bland and absent of a true personality. Fawn was an exception, but I liked her because she's cute, hahahaha. Remarkable that none of the CGI princesses has been as beautiful as the fairies or even Sofia's mother.

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Thank you for all the info! I really wish I had the laserdisc then, especially since I've always wanted to see the shirtless John Smith scene that everyone seems to talk about. Just to clarify (again lol), this scene occurs during the waterfall when John Smith first sees Pocahontas? I used to be under the impression that shirtless John Smith was supposed to be saved for the end after he's injured and being led away.

Well, you don't have the possibility to get a Laserdisc player? The shirtless scene occurs after Colors of the Wind, when Pocahontas hears the drums and leaves. Personally I didn't found it as steamy as the majority did.

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I just hope with Lasseter gone now that the formula will be toned down and given a break. Doesn't seem likely from what we've seen of Raya though.

Nope. Disney is so formulaic that they are afraid of breaking of a formula, so it's dubious that they'll break entirely from the Revival one.

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Oh ok, strange then that there isn't much about that Tarzan draft. Sorry for not being much of a help. Yes, that book is a goldmine, not just for Hunchback, but for most of the films included in there. Aladdin I think has one of the longest sections, probably because it went through so many changes.

Don't worry, you're forgiven ;) Hunchback has also a long section on it, as well as Pocahontas. But the book is a goldmine for any Disney fan, nonetheless. And it should've been updated with the following Disney features ;)

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Disney will claim there is nothing to be authentic to (culture-wise) because Raya mixes up different Southeast Asian cultures rather than just picks one. Like they did with Moana or Elena specifically so different groups couldn't complain that their countries/cultures were not represented.

True. I guess that Raya won't have any love interest from what it's shown, but at least she'll have a little brother, which is a first for a Disney heroine (unless you'll count Wendy).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:08 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Okay. To be honest, I found most of the fairies to be bland and absent of a true personality. Fawn was an exception, but I liked her because she's cute, hahahaha. Remarkable that none of the CGI princesses has been as beautiful as the fairies or even Sofia's mother.
I honestly felt that way about pretty much all the Disney Fairies characters especially Tinker Bell herself. The CGI princesses are all better looking as hand-drawn images in concept art imo. The fairies I prefer in the books as well, design wise because they also look better in 2D. I do like Sofia's mother's design although I've never given her much thought.

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Well, you don't have the possibility to get a Laserdisc player? The shirtless scene occurs after Colors of the Wind, when Pocahontas hears the drums and leaves. Personally I didn't found it as steamy as the majority did.
I could probably get one but it seems like such a hassle to work with one. I've heard that you can also purchase the services of people who port over laserdisc features to DVD which might be what I'll end up doing though.

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Nope. Disney is so formulaic that they are afraid of breaking of a formula, so it's dubious that they'll break entirely from the Revival one.
Which is why I wonder why they broke away from the Renaissance formula after Tarzan (and even a bit during Tarzan). Every film they did after for a whole decade completely strayed from the formula and Shrek wouldn't come out for another few years for them to blame the popular's shifting interest on that. Even the films that came after 2001, when Shrek debuted, would have been greenlighted or in production before then.

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Don't worry, you're forgiven ;) Hunchback has also a long section on it, as well as Pocahontas. But the book is a goldmine for any Disney fan, nonetheless. And it should've been updated with the following Disney features ;)
TBH, I think Tarzan is a nice ending for the book but I wouldn't have minded to have seen a few more movies included. TENG's would be interesting for the Kingdom of the Sun sections and I'd love to read more about Atlantis, Lilo & Stitch, Treasure Planet, and maybe even Brother Bear as well. Not to mention Fantasia 2000 especially all the shorts that were scrapped.

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True. I guess that Raya won't have any love interest from what it's shown, but at least she'll have a little brother, which is a first for a Disney heroine (unless you'll count Wendy).
I didn't even hear about Raya having a little brother. That's a nice change for a Disney heroine although Merida has three. Interestingly enough, Mulan had a little brother in some versions of the legend.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:29 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I honestly felt that way about pretty much all the Disney Fairies characters especially Tinker Bell herself.

Agreed, she is pretty bland, though she has some moments of tantrums.

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The CGI princesses are all better looking as hand-drawn images in concept art imo. The fairies I prefer in the books as well, design wise because they also look better in 2D. I do like Sofia's mother's design although I've never given her much thought.

True. But none of the Princesses has been as beautiful as Sofia's mother or the fairies. Btw, do you remember the first concept art for Moana in 2D? She looked quite different to her CGI self. To be honest, I find Moana to be the most cutest of these CGI Princesses.

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Which is why I wonder why they broke away from the Renaissance formula after Tarzan (and even a bit during Tarzan). Every film they did after for a whole decade completely strayed from the formula and Shrek wouldn't come out for another few years for them to blame the popular's shifting interest on that. Even the films that came after 2001, when Shrek debuted, would have been greenlighted or in production before then.

I think it's really because Disney were getting too homogenous with that formula and everyone were criticizing them for it. The world was a different place during the late 90's, since Disney was the studio that everyone was copying. And it's incredible to think about how the fate of animation would change forever during a few years. To be honest, I didn't mind the change of formula, since even I was getting tired of it.

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TBH, I think Tarzan is a nice ending for the book but I wouldn't have minded to have seen a few more movies included. TENG's would be interesting for the Kingdom of the Sun sections and I'd love to read more about Atlantis, Lilo & Stitch, Treasure Planet, and maybe even Brother Bear as well. Not to mention Fantasia 2000 especially all the shorts that were scrapped.

Of course it needs to be updated with the Revival era, haha.

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I didn't even hear about Raya having a little brother. That's a nice change for a Disney heroine although Merida has three. Interestingly enough, Mulan had a little brother in some versions of the legend.

Yup. It's remarkable that few of the Disney protagonists have siblings that are younger. With the exception of Wendy, they usually tend to be the youngest siblings. Just look at Lilo, Kenai and Anna.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:23 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
True. But none of the Princesses has been as beautiful as Sofia's mother or the fairies. Btw, do you remember the first concept art for Moana in 2D? She looked quite different to her CGI self. To be honest, I find Moana to be the most cutest of these CGI Princesses.
Not really to be honest. I remember a fan drew a picture based on what he saw at D23 or some fan expo where Moana closely resembled Tiana. I think I find Anna the most beautiful of the CGI princesses.

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I think it's really because Disney were getting too homogenous with that formula and everyone were criticizing them for it. The world was a different place during the late 90's, since Disney was the studio that everyone was copying. And it's incredible to think about how the fate of animation would change forever during a few years. To be honest, I didn't mind the change of formula, since even I was getting tired of it.
That's true, but it's strange that it took a whole decade to return to the formula considering how most of the films were all flops. And it doesn't explain why the Lasseter formula has been followed to a T for more than a decade now, since Bolt to presumably Raya.

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Of course it needs to be updated with the Revival era, haha.

Actually, I wouldn't mind that because Tangled and Frozen were both in production for almost full decades so there would be plenty of information on previous versions. I'd love to hear more about the early Zootopia concept too where Nick was the main character and the predator animals all wore shock collars.

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Yup. It's remarkable that few of the Disney protagonists have siblings that are younger. With the exception of Wendy, they usually tend to be the youngest siblings. Just look at Lilo, Kenai and Anna.
I suppose because being the oldest sibling would imply that you're the most responsible and boring sibling so there's not much of a story there. Not to mention that if you're oldest, you've likely outgrown your coming of age development and there's no thrill of adventure. I suppose that's why in most fairy tales, it was always the youngest sister or brother who was the protagonist while older siblings were antagonistic or at best, neutral.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:35 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
Not really to be honest. I remember a fan drew a picture based on what he saw at D23 or some fan expo where Moana closely resembled Tiana. I think I find Anna the most beautiful of the CGI princesses.

Really? Okay. I just remember a leaked CGI picture of Moana. Well, that connection makes sense, since Tiana and Moana are the only non-Caucasian Princesses from the Revival era. And both originates from Musker and Clements. But otherwise they're not so similar.

And sorry, but I disagree about Anna.

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That's true, but it's strange that it took a whole decade to return to the formula considering how most of the films were all flops. And it doesn't explain why the Lasseter formula has been followed to a T for more than a decade now, since Bolt to presumably Raya.

I agree. It's remarkable that it took them so long to return to that formula. But the animation industry was a completely different place at the time and Disney were criticized for being too homogenous. Yet I guess that Disney is still homogenous enough to not break from the Revival formula, haha :P

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Actually, I wouldn't mind that because Tangled and Frozen were both in production for almost full decades so there would be plenty of information on previous versions. I'd love to hear more about the early Zootopia concept too where Nick was the main character and the predator animals all wore shock collars.

True. I know that I've probably said this before, but I'm surprised that it took so long for Disney to adapt the Rapunzel story. Since it's lean, short and doesn't really rely on a mandatory, proactive feminist (don't call me out, purists :P). As for Frozen, it's Incredible that a single solution would solve so many problems. As for Zootopia, I liked Nick more than Judy. Remarkably enough, Disney has a tendency to do male foxes very well, since Robin Hood, Tod and Nick are all very charismatic characters.

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I suppose because being the oldest sibling would imply that you're the most responsible and boring sibling so there's not much of a story there. Not to mention that if you're oldest, you've likely outgrown your coming of age development and there's no thrill of adventure. I suppose that's why in most fairy tales, it was always the youngest sister or brother who was the protagonist while older siblings were antagonistic or at best, neutral.

That's a good observation. It's remarkable that Raya is going to break that mold. But I have the feeling that she won't get any love interest either.


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