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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:31 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Well, he was certainly hot as Gaston! :D He did a fine job, though I agree with those who thinks that Gaston's arc was inconsistent. Gaston has some moments where he comes across as somewhat redeemable, but still becomes villainous at the end. But there has been some theories of making a sequel where he returns.

True, but I don't think Human Again was the worst example of jarring comedy.

Alright, fair enough. Though Disney has still made films with male protagonists during this Revival era. But I wonder if we'll ever see a Disney musical with a male on it, like the Renaissance films.

Fair enough. I didn't mind Tadashi's death, but it still felt a little shoehorned in, due to how death was suddenly seemed as a Disney trope and how that trope was increased in the Renaissance and later on. When in fact death wasn't a big issue in Walt's films, with the exception of Bambi. But because of Bambi, it's been a trope and certainly the loss of a sibling. I can see why people liked Tadashi more, because he was a redeemable older brother and his relationship with Hiro was heartwarming enough.

Were the antiheroes so popular in the nineties?

I know the weakest film of the Renaissance is something of a passionate and subjective debate, due to people considering if Pocahontas, Hunchback or Hercules were the ones who were the weakest of the Renaissance.

To be honest, I'm not crazy about the hand drawn scenes in Mary Poppins Returns. They look awful I hoped that we could see an Enchanted 2, but it's been in delopment hell for years now. But you've probably right. But which franchise do you mean that would see a reboot?

Luke Evans' Gaston actually comes off as not really a bad guy during the first half of the film, which is a huge contrast from the animated Gaston. While he wasn't evil in the beginning of the animated film, he still had some awful traits that basically spelled out to the viewers what he would end up becoming. The live-action version seems actually open to Belle's interest in reading and wants to reach her on her level.

What did you feel was the most egregious examples of jarring comedy in BATB?

With Gigantic cancelled, and films like Frozen 2 and Dragon Empire (not to mention that even WIR2's songs are sung by the female characters), it doesn't look like Disney is interested in a musical with a male lead so far.

Was there really a lot of death in the Renaissance films? Mufasa and Kerchak are the only examples I can think of. And Walt's films nearly had more death since the original plans were to kill off Trusty in Lady and the Tramp and Baloo in The Jungle Book.

Yes, audiences liked their characters to be grittier and darker rather than clean cut heroes like Captain America.

Yeah, Hunchback gets a lot of flack along with Pocahontas and Hercules. They're usually considered the three weakest, especially box office wise although Hercules is really the only one that really didn't do super well. The other two just didn't meet Disney's expectations, regardless of the fact that Pocahontas had the biggest opening ever and Hunchback still did better in foreign countries.

I think Enchanted could potentially get a reboot. Like in a decade or so, they'll realize that it's easier and better to just remake the original film rather than try and make a sequel that follows the development of the original. Not to mention, the actors in Enchanted will have aged but they're supposed to play timeless characters.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:08 pm 
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Well, fate would have it that I would be late once again. Sorry once again, my week has just been crazy.

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Luke Evans' Gaston actually comes off as not really a bad guy during the first half of the film, which is a huge contrast from the animated Gaston. While he wasn't evil in the beginning of the animated film, he still had some awful traits that basically spelled out to the viewers what he would end up becoming. The live-action version seems actually open to Belle's interest in reading and wants to
reach her on her level.

Well observed. I guess you could see him as such. It's somewhat a pity that his good traits aren't as developed. Speaking of which, have you heard the theories that he may come back in a sequel?

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What did you feel was the most egregious examples of jarring comedy in BATB?

To be honest, all of the slapstick scenes. Especially the introduction of the Enchanted objects and the climax.

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With Gigantic cancelled, and films like Frozen 2 and Dragon Empire (not to mention that even WIR2's songs are sung by the female characters), it doesn't look like Disney is interested in a musical with a male lead so far.

Agreed. But who knows? Perhaps they could be revived again in the future? I remember looking forward to Gigantic and being bummed by it's cancellation.

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Was there really a lot of death in the Renaissance films? Mufasa and Kerchak are the only examples I can think of.

Oh yes, there were. Kocoum, Quasimodo's mother, General Li (Shang's father), Tarzan's parents, Kala's child (well, if you count them, I realized that Tarzan had plenty of deaths). I also assumed that Gazeem (the thief in Aladdin who enters The Cave of Wonders) died in the Cave. The death trope was even more prominent in the Dark Age films, in Atlantis, Treasure Planet and Brother Bear.

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And Walt's films nearly had more death since the original plans were to kill off Trusty in Lady and the Tramp and Baloo in The Jungle Book.

I know about Trusty's Death, but I didn't know about Baloo. But I don't think Baloo's death would've worked, due to him being a mayor, comedic character.

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Yeah, Hunchback gets a lot of flack along with Pocahontas and Hercules. They're usually considered the three weakest, especially box office wise although Hercules is really the only one that really didn't do super well. The other two just didn't meet Disney's expectations, regardless of the fact that Pocahontas had the biggest opening ever and Hunchback still did better in foreign countries.

Yeah, regardless of Pocahontas reputation, at least it had a record opening. It wasn't a flop, though it was seen as a dissapointment due to it grossing less. But regardless of it's fanbase, we could assume that one reason of it's success, was due to it riding on the successes of it's predecessors. I'm not saying that it's the only reason for it's success, but it's a mayor factor.

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I think Enchanted could potentially get a reboot. Like in a decade or so, they'll realize that it's easier and better to just remake the original film rather than try and make a sequel that follows the development of the original. Not to mention, the actors in Enchanted will have aged but they're supposed to play timeless characters.

Could be. But I hope that we'll get hand drawn animation with it. I know there were some animation experts who weren't that keen on the animation in Enchanted, which I disagree. Perhaps some scenes, but the overall animation was good. Though Giselle may be the skinniest Disney Princess ever.

Have you noticed that Giselle is the second in the line of strawberry red Princesses? Despite that I thought that she resembled Ariel a bit. And did you know that Tangled was supposed to be more meta, in the vein of Enchanted? Funny how Tangled and Enchanted shares similar components.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:12 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Well observed. I guess you could see him as such. It's somewhat a pity that his good traits aren't as developed. Speaking of which, have you heard the theories that he may come back in a sequel?

To be honest, all of the slapstick scenes. Especially the introduction of the Enchanted objects and the climax.

Agreed. But who knows? Perhaps they could be revived again in the future? I remember looking forward to Gigantic and being bummed by it's cancellation.

Oh yes, there were. Kocoum, Quasimodo's mother, General Li (Shang's father), Tarzan's parents, Kala's child (well, if you count them, I realized that Tarzan had plenty of deaths). I also assumed that Gazeem (the thief in Aladdin who enters The Cave of Wonders) died in the Cave. The death trope was even more prominent in the Dark Age films, in Atlantis, Treasure Planet and Brother Bear.

I know about Trusty's Death, but I didn't know about Baloo. But I don't think Baloo's death would've worked, due to him being a mayor, comedic character.

Yeah, regardless of Pocahontas reputation, at least it had a record opening. It wasn't a flop, though it was seen as a dissapointment due to it grossing less. But regardless of it's fanbase, we could assume that one reason of it's success, was due to it riding on the successes of it's predecessors. I'm not saying that it's the only reason for it's success, but it's a mayor factor.

Could be. But I hope that we'll get hand drawn animation with it. I know there were some animation experts who weren't that keen on the animation in Enchanted, which I disagree. Perhaps some scenes, but the overall animation was good. Though Giselle may be the skinniest Disney Princess ever.

Have you noticed that Giselle is the second in the line of strawberry red Princesses? Despite that I thought that she resembled Ariel a bit. And did you know that Tangled was supposed to be more meta, in the vein of Enchanted? Funny how Tangled and Enchanted shares similar components.

That's perfectly all right! As I said before, there's no need to apologize especially during the holiday/end of term season.

Yeah, I've heard that if there was another BATB movie, Luke Evans could be back. Since I enjoyed his role, I'd be pleased with him. Rather see him than Emma Watson or Ewan McGregor.

I never felt that the introduction of the enchanted objects was really very slapstick but I can see your point. It just doesn't come off as jarring to me.. I agree with the climax scene though although it doesn't really bother me there either.

Lol, I was ecstatic when Gigantic was cancelled because I hated the project from its inception especially after the Lopezes retooled it.

Lol, I forgot about Kocoum. The other characters I didn't think were really major enough but you're right, they do all die and contribute to the death and gloom in these movies. Mulan kills off all those huns in the avalanche as well, not to mention all of the General's troops and that village with the little girl's doll. As for death in the 2000s films, Lilo & Stitch would count too with Lilo's parents. Not to mention, Pudge the fish was originally supposed to die as well.

I'm glad that neither Trusty or Baloo were killed off. I don't think either film really needed that. It would have come across as gratuitous to me, like trying to top the death of Bambi's mother. Thumper, if I'm correct, was meant to die as well in Bambi.

I do agree that Pocahontas did especially as well as it did because it came on the tails of the early Disney Renaissance films.

I actually am not the biggest fan of the animation in Enchanted either. The character's faces were really sharp and angular for my taste, mainly Giselle, Edward, and Narissa. The animation felt somewhat cheap at least for a big-budget Disney film although I liked the backgrounds and the art nouveau style.

Yes, I always felt that Giselle in her wedding dress was meant to hearken back to a similarly red-headed Cinderella in her silver ballgown. The hair color was based off of Cinderella (or Ariel but toned down), the angular features came from Aurora, and the overall look came from Ariel such as the hair style and eyes.

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the original idea for Tangled (Rapunzel Unbraided). It worked in Enchanted because they used generic fairy tale tropes but I didn't want to see an actual fairy tale, in this case Rapunzel, be used like that. Then again, I might have preferred that over Tangled.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:20 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
That's perfectly all right! As I said before, there's no need to apologize especially during the holiday/end of term season.

Sure, but I still could apologize ;)

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Yeah, I've heard that if there was another BATB movie, Luke Evans could be back. Since I enjoyed his role, I'd be pleased with him. Rather see him than Emma Watson or Ewan McGregor.

Wonder if Disney is ever going to pull a sequel off. You didn't like McGregor either?

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I never felt that the introduction of the enchanted objects was really very slapstick but I can see your point. It just doesn't come off as jarring to me.. I agree with the climax scene though although it doesn't really bother me there either.

True, but Hunchback gets most criticized for the slapstick than BATB does, especially in the climax.

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Lol, I was ecstatic when Gigantic was cancelled because I hated the project from its inception especially after the Lopezes retooled it.

True, but I still wouldn't mind if the project was revived again.

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Lol, I forgot about Kocoum. The other characters I didn't think were really major enough but you're right, they do all die and contribute to the death and gloom in these movies. Mulan kills off all those huns in the avalanche as well, not to mention all of the General's troops and that village with the little girl's doll. As for death in the 2000s films, Lilo & Stitch would count too with Lilo's parents. Not to mention, Pudge the fish was originally supposed to die as well.

I was going to mention Lilo's parents! But I didn't due to obvious reasons! Despite that they're already dead from the get-go, at least Lilo & Stitch deals with death, despite how none of the characters actually dies on screen. But to be honest, I didn't like how the film dealt with it, since it's never elaborated what actually happened to the parents until late in the movie (which was an intentional choice from the directors, according to the Audio Commentary, but still). As for the death-trope, of course we saw other deaths in Disney prior to the Renaissance, but I've noticed that death was something that increased after The Lion King.

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I'm glad that neither Trusty or Baloo were killed off. I don't think either film really needed that. It would have come across as gratuitous to me, like trying to top the death of Bambi's mother. Thumper, if I'm correct, was meant to die as well in Bambi.

I don't think it was never meant to actually top Bambi's mom, but at least include a death scene. However, I'm just pondering :P. I think I've read somewhere that Thumper was supposed to die. But I think it would've been jarring to have it. You've gotta admit that it was a pretty darn bold move to kill off Ray from The Princess and the Frog, since a sidekick rarely dies in Disney. But at least his death was somewhat justified. It was probably the first major death in a Musker and Clements movie, which they repeated with Moana (but at least both death scenes were kinda uplifting).

But speaking of which, at least Chief's death would've reasonate if they made it, due to it being a plot device.

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I do agree that Pocahontas did especially as well as it did because it came on the tails of the early Disney Renaissance films.

True, but we could always assume that Pocahontas was a genuine hit due to it's mere quality. Perhaps people liked the movie for what it was. I know that some people blame the unhappy ending for not drawing a bigger crowd, but there are plenty who genuniely loves the ending. Even some people considers it to be superior to Hunchback.

Speaking of which, have you noticed that there's a feud between Pocahontas and Hunchback fans?

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I actually am not the biggest fan of the animation in Enchanted either. The character's faces were really sharp and angular for my taste, mainly Giselle, Edward, and Narissa. The animation felt somewhat cheap at least for a big-budget Disney film although I liked the backgrounds and the art nouveau style.

To be honest, I thought Giselle and Edward rather had a Warner Bros-esque look to them. Especially Edward. I'm not saying that they didn't look Disney-esque at all, but they did look Warner Bros-esque. At least Narissa looked rather Disney-esque. And frankly, I thought that she had the best design and was animated the best. I agree that some of the animation did felt cheap, but not as cheap as it could've been.
Btw, what made Enchanted even more of a spoof, is how the animals talked and how they commented on Giselle's crush. Yes, there have been couple of movies where the animal sidekicks have actually spoken (Enchanted and Mermaid), but otherwise the fairy tale movies had the animal sidekicks being naturalistic and "mute".

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Yes, I always felt that Giselle in her wedding dress was meant to hearken back to a similarly red-headed Cinderella in her silver ballgown. The hair color was based off of Cinderella (or Ariel but toned down), the angular features came from Aurora, and the overall look came from Ariel such as the hair style and eyes.

I agree that Giselle resembles Ariel the most, especially in the hairbrush scene (yes, I know it's a shallow comparison, but still). At least Anna doesn't resemble Giselle a bit :P

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Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the original idea for Tangled (Rapunzel Unbraided). It worked in Enchanted because they used generic fairy tale tropes but I didn't want to see an actual fairy tale, in this case Rapunzel, be used like that. Then again, I might have preferred that over Tangled.

True. But remarkably enough, Tangled and Enchanted shares several similar components (a non-specific fairy tale settings in the woods, a fair heroine with similar color schemes, a brunette male, a female villain, a horse). And both features music from Alan Menken, hahaha! I know these comparisons are shallow, but still ;).

Just wondering, since you tend to like dramas more than comedies, how come that Mermaid is your favorite movie?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:29 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Wonder if Disney is ever going to pull a sequel off. You didn't like McGregor either?
True, but Hunchback gets most criticized for the slapstick than BATB does, especially in the climax.

True, but I still wouldn't mind if the project (Gigantic) was revived again.

I was going to mention Lilo's parents! But I didn't due to obvious reasons! Despite that they're already dead from the get-go, at least Lilo & Stitch deals with death, despite how none of the characters actually dies on screen. But to be honest, I didn't like how the film dealt with it, since it's never elaborated what actually happened to the parents until late in the movie (which was an intentional choice from the directors, according to the Audio Commentary, but still). As for the death-trope, of course we saw other deaths in Disney prior to the Renaissance, but I've noticed that death was something that increased after The Lion King.

I don't think it was never meant to actually top Bambi's mom, but at least include a death scene. However, I'm just pondering :P. I think I've read somewhere that Thumper was supposed to die. But I think it would've been jarring to have it. You've gotta admit that it was a pretty darn bold move to kill off Ray from The Princess and the Frog, since a sidekick rarely dies in Disney. But at least his death was somewhat justified. It was probably the first major death in a Musker and Clements movie, which they repeated with Moana (but at least both death scenes were kinda uplifting).

But speaking of which, at least Chief's death would've reasonate if they made it, due to it being a plot device.

True, but we could always assume that Pocahontas was a genuine hit due to it's mere quality. Perhaps people liked the movie for what it was. I know that some people blame the unhappy ending for not drawing a bigger crowd, but there are plenty who genuniely loves the ending. Even some people considers it to be superior to Hunchback.

Speaking of which, have you noticed that there's a feud between Pocahontas and Hunchback fans?

To be honest, I thought Giselle and Edward rather had a Warner Bros-esque look to them. Especially Edward. I'm not saying that they didn't look Disney-esque at all, but they did look Warner Bros-esque. At least Narissa looked rather Disney-esque. And frankly, I thought that she had the best design and was animated the best. I agree that some of the animation did felt cheap, but not as cheap as it could've been.
Btw, what made Enchanted even more of a spoof, is how the animals talked and how they commented on Giselle's crush. Yes, there have been couple of movies where the animal sidekicks have actually spoken (Enchanted and Mermaid), but otherwise the fairy tale movies had the animal sidekicks being naturalistic and "mute".

I agree that Giselle resembles Ariel the most, especially in the hairbrush scene (yes, I know it's a shallow comparison, but still). At least Anna doesn't resemble Giselle a bit :P

True. But remarkably enough, Tangled and Enchanted shares several similar components (a non-specific fairy tale settings in the woods, a fair heroine with similar color schemes, a brunette male, a female villain, a horse). And both features music from Alan Menken, hahaha! I know these comparisons are shallow, but still ;).


Maybe when they run out of their main classics to remake, Disney might turn to making sequels for them like BATB. I don't like McGregor in general but his Lumiere was really awful. It shocks me that he was married to a French woman and has French speaking kids because his accent was atrocious. He lacks even an iota of the charm that the original Lumiere had.

I wouldn't mind the slapstick in Hunchback so much if the gargoyles weren't so anachronistic. And Hugo is just really gross in general.

I would like the film to be revived if it would become a more traditional take on Jack and the Beanstalk but that's highly unlikely. After the huge write-off Disney took to scrap this film, I doubt they'd bring it back though which is probably for the best.

I never really had an issue with the cause of Lilo's parents' death not being given until the end of the film but maybe that was in part because I always thought Nani was Lilo's mother the first time I watched the film lol. Which is everything the directors didn't want to have happen. I think the reason death increased so much was in part because of the source materials. Tarzan is a jungle film like The Lion King so it makes sense that both films involve death. Mulan is a war movie. The 2000s films were meant to be action-adventure films that were more itty-gritty like Atlantis and Treasure Planet.

Technically Meg dies in Hercules although she comes back. I'd say the first major death in a Musker and Clements film was Mr. Arrow in Treasure Planet, but sadly nobody remembers that movie let alone that character. I feel like the main reason Ray was killed off was because they wanted him to be reunited with Evangeline and they couldn't figure out a way to do that without killing him.

I agree that Chief really needed to die. His survival basically spoils the whole movie.

Actually, I usually hear people prefer Hunchback to Pocahontas. They say that Hunchback took more risks while Pocahontas was more interested in being politically correct. I think the Rotten Tomatoes score for Pocahontas makes it the only Renaissance film to be deemed rotten. I've never felt that there was a feud between Pocahontas and Hunchback fans. Maybe because their fandoms aren't as big as say The Little Mermaid/BATB or Tangled/Frozen's, but while there are some people who prefer one over the other, generally somebody who likes one tends to like the other since both are dramatic and serious musicals.

Narissa was designed by Andreas Deja so it's not a surprise that she was the best animated. I think the issue was that since these animated characters had to resemble their live-action counterparts, they were more caricaturized.

I guess out of the classic fairy tale/princess films, Cinderella was the only one with some talking animals, mainly the mice. Otherwise, the birds, Bruno, Major, Lucifer, etc. couldn't talk. So really only the mice could speak out of all the animals in the film. The Little Mermaid only has the sea creatures (plus Scuttle) being able to talk. Aladdin has Iago who makes sense since he's a parrot and to an extent, Abu. I think the forest animals in Enchanted were more based off of Bambi though hence why they could talk, even though in Bambi, this only occurs because it's a naturalistic setting.

Lol, the only comparison between Giselle and Anna might be a somewhat similar hair color.

A lot of the Enchanted and Tangled comparisons though could include other fairy tale films as well though. Snow White and Sleeping Beauty have non-specific fairy tale settings in the woods (Sleeping Beauty especially mashes up various countries together). All princesses except Jasmine where fair in skin tone, and then only Belle and Snow White were dark haired, otherwise Cinderella, Aurora, and Ariel have red or blonde hair. All the princes in these films are brunette except for Belle's prince (although his fur is brown if that counts). Female villains were part of Walt's classic three plus TLM. Horses feature prominently in Walt's classic three plus BATB. Tangled was based off a Grimm fairy tale so it makes sense that it follows closely with the other "Grimm" fairy tales, namely Walt's classic three. And Enchanted was always meant to be a tribute to those films so that's why Tangled feels similar to Enchanted in some respects, because both are riffing off of the same material.

The Little Mermaid has comedic moments sure, but I'd classify it as a musical drama. While Musker and Clements tend to have more comedy in their films, this isn't really as apparent in their early films like The Great Mouse Detective and The Little Mermaid, probably because of their 80s settings. Aladdin is the most comical of the classic princess/fairy tale films and that's really just in the Genie's scenes (Iago's too to an extent). Actually, the Genie's scenes used to be my least favorite in Aladdin because of that although I can much more appreciate the pop culture references now. And Aladdin at least mixes the comedy well with the drama, unlike Hercules which feels way too bloated with the pop culture references.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Maybe when they run out of their main classics to remake, Disney might turn to making sequels for them like BATB. I don't like McGregor in general but his Lumiere was really awful. It shocks me that he was married to a French woman and has French speaking kids because his accent was atrocious. He lacks even an iota of the charm that the original Lumiere had.

OK. I didn't thought he was that bad, but he was mostly in CGI form, anyways :P I'm neutral when it comes to McGregor, yet he's not as charismatic to make himself distinctive as an actor, nor is his acting that special.

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I never really had an issue with the cause of Lilo's parents' death not being given until the end of the film but maybe that was in part because I always thought Nani was Lilo's mother the first time I watched the film lol. Which is everything the directors didn't want to have happen.

I knew about Nani being Lilo's sister, but she could've easily been mistaken for Lilo's mother, since there's such an obvious age difference between them (and yes, the directors talks about this in the Audio Commentary for the film)

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I think the reason death increased so much was in part because of the source materials. Tarzan is a jungle film like The Lion King so it makes sense that both films involve death.

Fair enough, but remember that The Jungle Book was a jungle film without any death. Though it was meant to be lighthearted from the get-go. At least Tarzan had several deaths for a Disney movie, despite it being overall quite lighthearted in tone.

So you consider The Lion King to be a jungle movie? Or have we discussed it before?

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Mulan is a war movie.

I know there was some slight controversy about the dead army scene, but not so much.

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Technically Meg dies in Hercules although she comes back. I'd say the first major death in a Musker and Clements film was Mr. Arrow in Treasure Planet, but sadly nobody remembers that movie let alone that character. I feel like the main reason Ray was killed off was because they wanted him to be reunited with Evangeline and they couldn't figure out a way to do that without killing him.

I know that Meg technically dies, but she gets revived again, so I never took it under consideration :P You're right about Mr. Arrow, I had forgotten about him! I know there were some decisions about not killing Ray, until coming up with the neat solucion they came up with. Btw, I know some people found Ray's death to be contrived.

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I agree that Chief really needed to die. His survival basically spoils the whole movie.

What's even more remarkable is how Amos Slade treats Chief afterwards. He scolds him and threatens him back to his room and neither him or Copper seems appreciative that he actually is alive.

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Actually, I usually hear people prefer Hunchback to Pocahontas. They say that Hunchback took more risks while Pocahontas was more interested in being politically correct. I think the Rotten Tomatoes score for Pocahontas makes it the only Renaissance film to be deemed rotten. I've never felt that there was a feud between Pocahontas and Hunchback fans. Maybe because their fandoms aren't as big as say The Little Mermaid/BATB or Tangled/Frozen's, but while there are some people who prefer one over the other, generally somebody who likes one tends to like the other since both are dramatic and serious musicals.

True, but I've noticed that there's a slight feud between Pocahontas and Hunchback fans, despite that both could've been perceived as similar, due to both being serious in tone and being claimed for tarnish the Renaissance (but of course there's always someones who loves both, as I do). I know that Hunchback has better ratings, but looking closer, Pocahontas has more of a fanbase. Yet though Hunchback is known for taking more risk, let's remember that Pocahontas took it's own risks as well.

One thing really that both have in common, is that both are labeled for being serious. Yet Hunchback is more overtly comedic than Pocahontas, despite it's dark tone. Yet I've noticed for all the flack Pocahontas gets for not having humor, it's few wisecracks never gets as much credit as it should've. It's not that it lacks wisecraks entirely.

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Narissa was designed by Andreas Deja so it's not a surprise that she was the best animated. I think the issue was that since these animated characters had to resemble their live-action counterparts, they were more caricaturized.

Oh, I could definitively sense the Andreas Deja-vibe in Narissa, even before I researched that she animated her. She had a Deja-esque design to her. Speaking of which, did you know that Deja didn't wanted to be just typecasted for animating villains and wanted to animate heroes as well? According to one of the featurettes for 2011's Winnie the Pooh, he wanted to animate Esmeralda, but she was already taken to Tony Fucile.

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I guess out of the classic fairy tale/princess films, Cinderella was the only one with some talking animals, mainly the mice. Otherwise, the birds, Bruno, Major, Lucifer, etc. couldn't talk. So really only the mice could speak out of all the animals in the film. The Little Mermaid only has the sea creatures (plus Scuttle) being able to talk.

True, but at least all of Ariel's animal friends in Mermaid talked.

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I think the forest animals in Enchanted were more based off of Bambi though hence why they could talk, even though in Bambi, this only occurs because it's a naturalistic setting.

Fair enough, but since Enchanted was a fairy tale movie, I just assumed that it was stereotyping the notion of a Princess having talking animals.

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Lol, the only comparison between Giselle and Anna might be a somewhat similar hair color.

True and they don't look nothing alike, except for their personalities (though Anna is more goofier). However, both their movies has Idina Menzel in one of their roles and the latter gave Idina more of a position in the Disney legacy. I know there were some fans that whined that Nancy never got to sing in Enchanted.

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A lot of the Enchanted and Tangled comparisons though could include other fairy tale films as well though. Snow White and Sleeping Beauty have non-specific fairy tale settings in the woods (Sleeping Beauty especially mashes up various countries together). All princesses except Jasmine where fair in skin tone, and then only Belle and Snow White were dark haired, otherwise Cinderella, Aurora, and Ariel have red or blonde hair. All the princes in these films are brunette except for Belle's prince (although his fur is brown if that counts). Female villains were part of Walt's classic three plus TLM. Horses feature prominently in Walt's classic three plus BATB. Tangled was based off a Grimm fairy tale so it makes sense that it follows closely with the other "Grimm" fairy tales, namely Walt's classic three. And Enchanted was always meant to be a tribute to those films so that's why Tangled feels similar to Enchanted in some respects, because both are riffing off of the same material.

True that all of the fairy tale films shares those similarities, but since Enchanted and Tangled were released so closely, I thought those comparisons were relevant enough. Because their common components are overt and obvious :P

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The Little Mermaid has comedic moments sure, but I'd classify it as a musical drama. While Musker and Clements tend to have more comedy in their films, this isn't really as apparent in their early films like The Great Mouse Detective and The Little Mermaid, probably because of their 80s settings.

That's interesting, because I've never classified Mermaid as a drama, despite that it has elements of it. I thought Mermaid is pretty much non-dramatic and is a lighthearted fairy tale. But each to their own.

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Aladdin is the most comical of the classic princess/fairy tale films and that's really just in the Genie's scenes (Iago's too to an extent).

True, but Aladdin is mostly a fairy tale movie without being a "Princess movie". A rarity in the Disney canon, since most of the fairy tale movies have actually been about the Princesses, which makes Aladdin unique. As for the comedy, I think there's enough slapstick in the market place scenes, but most people tend to say that both Genie and Iago are the only comic parts of Aladdin.

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And Aladdin at least mixes the comedy well with the drama, unlike Hercules which feels way too bloated with the pop culture references.

To be honest, I've never thought that Hercules did a well job with mixing comedy and drama. None of the tones felt cohesive. Not to mention that Hercules mostly drops the comedy at the end of the film.

So you've seen Ralph Breaks the Internet, huh? I'm surprised that it got so many rave reviews. Btw, I agree that Irene Bedard sounds nothing like Pocahontas in this movie. Her voice is highly altered.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:24 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
OK. I didn't thought he was that bad, but he was mostly in CGI form, anyways :P I'm neutral when it comes to McGregor, yet he's not as charismatic to make himself distinctive as an actor, nor is his acting that special.

I knew about Nani being Lilo's sister, but she could've easily been mistaken for Lilo's mother, since there's such an obvious age difference between them (and yes, the directors talks about this in the Audio Commentary for the film)

Fair enough, but remember that The Jungle Book was a jungle film without any death. Though it was meant to be lighthearted from the get-go. At least Tarzan had several deaths for a Disney movie, despite it being overall quite lighthearted in tone.

So you consider The Lion King to be a jungle movie? Or have we discussed it before?

I know there was some slight controversy about the dead army scene, but not so much.

I know that Meg technically dies, but she gets revived again, so I never took it under consideration :P You're right about Mr. Arrow, I had forgotten about him! I know there were some decisions about not killing Ray, until coming up with the neat solucion they came up with. Btw, I know some people found Ray's death to be contrived.

What's even more remarkable is how Amos Slade treats Chief afterwards. He scolds him and threatens him back to his room and neither him or Copper seems appreciative that he actually is alive.

True, but I've noticed that there's a slight feud between Pocahontas and Hunchback fans, despite that both could've been perceived as similar, due to both being serious in tone and being claimed for tarnish the Renaissance (but of course there's always someones who loves both, as I do). I know that Hunchback has better ratings, but looking closer, Pocahontas has more of a fanbase. Yet though Hunchback is known for taking more risk, let's remember that Pocahontas took it's own risks as well.

One thing really that both have in common, is that both are labeled for being serious. Yet Hunchback is more overtly comedic than Pocahontas, despite it's dark tone. Yet I've noticed for all the flack Pocahontas gets for not having humor, it's few wisecracks never gets as much credit as it should've. It's not that it lacks wisecraks entirely.

Oh, I could definitively sense the Andreas Deja-vibe in Narissa, even before I researched that she animated her. She had a Deja-esque design to her. Speaking of which, did you know that Deja didn't wanted to be just typecasted for animating villains and wanted to animate heroes as well? According to one of the featurettes for 2011's Winnie the Pooh, he wanted to animate Esmeralda, but she was already taken to Tony Fucile.

True, but at least all of Ariel's animal friends in Mermaid talked.

Fair enough, but since Enchanted was a fairy tale movie, I just assumed that it was stereotyping the notion of a Princess having talking animals.

True and they don't look nothing alike, except for their personalities (though Anna is more goofier). However, both their movies has Idina Menzel in one of their roles and the latter gave Idina more of a position in the Disney legacy. I know there were some fans that whined that Nancy never got to sing in Enchanted.

True that all of the fairy tale films shares those similarities, but since Enchanted and Tangled were released so closely, I thought those comparisons were relevant enough. Because their common components are overt and obvious :P

That's interesting, because I've never classified Mermaid as a drama, despite that it has elements of it. I thought Mermaid is pretty much non-dramatic and is a lighthearted fairy tale. But each to their own.

True, but Aladdin is mostly a fairy tale movie without being a "Princess movie". A rarity in the Disney canon, since most of the fairy tale movies have actually been about the Princesses, which makes Aladdin unique. As for the comedy, I think there's enough slapstick in the market place scenes, but most people tend to say that both Genie and Iago are the only comic parts of Aladdin.

To be honest, I've never thought that Hercules did a well job with mixing comedy and drama. None of the tones felt cohesive. Not to mention that Hercules mostly drops the comedy at the end of the film.

So you've seen Ralph Breaks the Internet, huh? I'm surprised that it got so many rave reviews. Btw, I agree that Irene Bedard sounds nothing like Pocahontas in this movie. Her voice is highly altered.

I think Ewan McGregor came off as worse since he was paired with a legend like Ian McKellen. There's simply no comparison between the two.

Yeah, I remember the directors said that they purposefully kept mentioning that Nani and Lilo are sisters in the beginning of the movie because people kept thinking she was Lilo's mother in test screenings. Clearly didn't work for me though lol.

Jungle Book was always more of a musical comedy than it was dark and dramatic since Walt scrapped the more book-accurate script for not being fun enough. Tarzan, like The Lion King, has its fair share of drama and comedy and it's way more heartfelt with Tarzan's emotional journey than The Jungle Book ever was with Mowgli.

For all intents and purposes, The Lion King is a jungle movie even if it isn't set in the jungle. After all, the original title was King of the Jungle.

Interestingly enough, one of the original plans for Mulan II was that Shan Yu's army would come back as ghosts and battle Mulan's ancestors in an epic battle.

Ray's death came as a surprise to me but since I wasn't a fan of him, I really didn't feel anything.

The Fox and the Hound really doesn't work if Chief is kept alive. It's possible the film would be regarded as more of a classic had it not been meddled with.

I guess there is a slight rivalry between the Pocahontas and Hunchback fandoms, even if I haven't myself seen it. I think the Pocahontas humor gets somewhat sidelined because it mostly focuses on Meeko and Percy who are treated as the subplot. Meanwhile, the gargoyles are always with Quasi so they are treated as part of the main plot.

Yeah, I'm definitely curious as to what Andreas Deja's Esmeralda would have been like although I love the final product so I'm not sure I would have wanted Tony Fucile's work scrapped. It would have been nice for Deja to animate the heroine for once, unless you count Lilo even though she's a child. Otherwise, he's done villains, he's done the hero (Hercules), and even supporting sidekicks (Tigger in Winnie the Pooh I think), but never the leading heroine.

Ariel's friends talking makes sense though since they're fish and Ariel is half-fish so it follows that they would be able to communicate. In contrast, Cinderella isn't half-bird which is why the birds can't speak to her.

I didn't even know who Idina was when I first saw Enchanted so it never really bothered me that she wasn't given a role to sing. To be honest, I didn't remember much of the character because later I watched Rent, and I never connected Idina there to Nancy in Enchanted.

Another comparison between Enchanted and Tangled is that both feature Alan Menken's music, although I much prefer his work in Enchanted.

Pinocchio could also count as a fairy tale film that isn't a princess film.

You're right that the ending of Hercules loses a lot of the comedy that defines the rest of the film. Funny how films like BATB and Hunchback featured a lot of comedy in their finales but Hercules doesn't.

Unfortunately, I did watch WIR2. I'm also surprised with how the reviews have been raving about the film, because it's a really weak installment. I'm not sure if Irene Bedard's voice has just aged over the years, like Paige O'Hara's, or if Disney modified her voice. Even the cadence feels off, nothing like the original Pocahontas.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:21 pm 
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I think Ewan McGregor came off as worse since he was paired with a legend like Ian McKellen. There's simply no comparison between the two.

Fair enough.

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Jungle Book was always more of a musical comedy than it was dark and dramatic since Walt scrapped the more book-accurate script for not being fun enough. Tarzan, like The Lion King, has its fair share of drama and comedy and it's way more heartfelt with Tarzan's emotional journey than The Jungle Book ever was with Mowgli.

True, but I think that The Jungle Book has it's share of heart and pensive moments. It's remarkable how the movie is labeled for being purely happy-go-lucky (which is fair enough, since it might be the most of happy-go-lucky of Walt's features). But it does have a couple of pensive and serious moments, drama and heart. Though of course I agree that Tarzan is more dramatic and emotional, despite that it's overall light hearted. But at least Tarzan is labeled for it's heart, which really sets it a part.

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For all intents and purposes, The Lion King is a jungle movie even if it isn't set in the jungle. After all, the original title was King of the Jungle.

True. And it does takes place in a jungle, after all and it takes a lot of cues from The Jungle Book, deliberately. Wonder if there's going to be another jungle film from Disney that walks in those shoes.

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Interestingly enough, one of the original plans for Mulan II was that Shan Yu's army would come back as ghosts and battle Mulan's ancestors in an epic battle.

Really?? That would've at least be more interesting than the lame premise we got.

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Ray's death came as a surprise to me but since I wasn't a fan of him, I really didn't feel anything.

I wasn't a fan of Ray either, but his death was sad enough. But it's a pity that we didn't got to know his firefly friends more, since they seemed more appealing.

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The Fox and the Hound really doesn't work if Chief is kept alive. It's possible the film would be regarded as more of a classic had it not been meddled with.

Could've been. I know test audiences pleaded to kill him off.

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I guess there is a slight rivalry between the Pocahontas and Hunchback fandoms, even if I haven't myself seen it. I think the Pocahontas humor gets somewhat sidelined because it mostly focuses on Meeko and Percy who are treated as the subplot. Meanwhile, the gargoyles are always with Quasi so they are treated as part of the main plot.

I've seen some of it, but not much. But you're right. Yet Meeko and Percy's subplot has a purpose, since it's meant to mirror the main conflict.

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Yeah, I'm definitely curious as to what Andreas Deja's Esmeralda would have been like although I love the final product so I'm not sure I would have wanted Tony Fucile's work scrapped. It would have been nice for Deja to animate the heroine for once, unless you count Lilo even though she's a child.

It would've definitively been interesting to see him pull off a grown heroine. But yeah, Lilo does count and it shows his versatility. It's a pity that he couldn't do more.

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Otherwise, he's done villains, he's done the hero (Hercules), and even supporting sidekicks (Tigger in Winnie the Pooh I think), but never the leading heroine.

He did Mama Odie in TPATF and King Triton. I remember that when I learned that he did three villains in a row (by seing the Making of The Lion King documentary in my childhood), I was curious if he actually had animated Ursula or McLeach as well. But at least it's good for him to step out of his confort zone.

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Ariel's friends talking makes sense though since they're fish and Ariel is half-fish so it follows that they would be able to communicate. In contrast, Cinderella isn't half-bird which is why the birds can't speak to her.

Fair enough, it makes perfect sense. But apparently the humans and the animals can understand each other in this world, since Eric understands when Sebastian whispers Ariel's name. Btw, speaking of Ariel being half fish, do you remember the Metal Fish-episode where she actually confronts Triton about being half-human? I thought it was a suitable comment that was an eye-opener for Triton.

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I didn't even know who Idina was when I first saw Enchanted so it never really bothered me that she wasn't given a role to sing. To be honest, I didn't remember much of the character because later I watched Rent, and I never connected Idina there to Nancy in Enchanted.

I didn't knew who she was either prior to Enchanted, but she's been prominent ever since. But at least she got to play a role that was more her. Besides, fans were ranting about her deleted song, due to her voice, which she really proved in Frozen.

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Another comparison between Enchanted and Tangled is that both feature Alan Menken's music, although I much prefer his work in Enchanted.

To be honest, I thought his work in Enchanted was passable, but not outstanding. I liked That's How You Know. However, the score had Menken's signature cues and way of doing it. And I've always thought the melody for So Close seemed derivative and familiar, despite that I have nothing against the song.

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Pinocchio could also count as a fairy tale film that isn't a princess film.

True, but I know that some naysayers would say otherwise.

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You're right that the ending of Hercules loses a lot of the comedy that defines the rest of the film. Funny how films like BATB and Hunchback featured a lot of comedy in their finales but Hercules doesn't.

True, but to be fair, it does have some comedy in the fight at Mount Olympus. And some at the very end, despite that the comedy is not as prominent in the last part of the film.

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Unfortunately, I did watch WIR2. I'm also surprised with how the reviews have been raving about the film, because it's a really weak installment. I'm not sure if Irene Bedard's voice has just aged over the years, like Paige O'Hara's, or if Disney modified her voice. Even the cadence feels off, nothing like the original Pocahontas.

Agreed. Perhaps her voice has aged, but she sounded almost nothing like the original Pocahontas.

Speaking of which, what did you think of A Place Called Slaughter Race-song?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:15 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
True, but I think that The Jungle Book has it's share of heart and pensive moments. It's remarkable how the movie is labeled for being purely happy-go-lucky (which is fair enough, since it might be the most of happy-go-lucky of Walt's features). But it does have a couple of pensive and serious moments, drama and heart. Though of course I agree that Tarzan is more dramatic and emotional, despite that it's overall light hearted. But at least Tarzan is labeled for it's heart, which really sets it a part.

True. And it does takes place in a jungle, after all and it takes a lot of cues from The Jungle Book, deliberately. Wonder if there's going to be another jungle film from Disney that walks in those shoes.

Really?? That would've at least be more interesting than the lame premise we got.

I wasn't a fan of Ray either, but his death was sad enough. But it's a pity that we didn't got to know his firefly friends more, since they seemed more appealing.

Could've been. I know test audiences pleaded to kill him off.

I've seen some of it, but not much. But you're right. Yet Meeko and Percy's subplot has a purpose, since it's meant to mirror the main conflict.

It would've definitively been interesting to see him pull off a grown heroine. But yeah, Lilo does count and it shows his versatility. It's a pity that he couldn't do more.

He did Mama Odie in TPATF and King Triton. I remember that when I learned that he did three villains in a row (by seing the Making of The Lion King documentary in my childhood), I was curious if he actually had animated Ursula or McLeach as well. But at least it's good for him to step out of his confort zone.

Fair enough, it makes perfect sense. But apparently the humans and the animals can understand each other in this world, since Eric understands when Sebastian whispers Ariel's name. Btw, speaking of Ariel being half fish, do you remember the Metal Fish-episode where she actually confronts Triton about being half-human? I thought it was a suitable comment that was an eye-opener for Triton.

I didn't knew who she was either prior to Enchanted, but she's been prominent ever since. But at least she got to play a role that was more her. Besides, fans were ranting about her deleted song, due to her voice, which she really proved in Frozen.

To be honest, I thought his work in Enchanted was passable, but not outstanding. I liked That's How You Know. However, the score had Menken's signature cues and way of doing it. And I've always thought the melody for So Close seemed derivative and familiar, despite that I have nothing against the song.

True, but I know that some naysayers would say otherwise.

True, but to be fair, it does have some comedy in the fight at Mount Olympus. And some at the very end, despite that the comedy is not as prominent in the last part of the film.

Agreed. Perhaps her voice has aged, but she sounded almost nothing like the original Pocahontas.

Speaking of which, what did you think of A Place Called Slaughter Race-song?

I feel like most of the pathos is glossed over in The Jungle Book though. For example, Mowgli leaves his family of wolves that he was raised by and we barely get a good-bye from him. He's more upset about leaving the jungle than he is from leaving the wolves who I don't think he ever references ever again. The wolves are so minimal in the film that I used to not remember them at all and assumed that Bagheera was the one who raised him. The live-action film definitely fixed this. The only really emotional scenes in the animated version I can think of are when Baloo realizes he has to tell Mowgli to go back to the man village and again when Baloo is believed to be dead.

Another jungle film would have to follow some pretty stiff competition.

I agree about the original plans for Mulan II and the spirit storyline would fit with that recent Mulan book which has her travel to the Underworld.

Ray's family and friends probably seemed more appealing because they barely had any screentime. I'm sure they'd be as bad as him or almost as bad (besides the Evangeline delusions) if we got to see more of them.

I didn't realize that test audiences all were in favor of Chief dying. I also figured the opposite would have occurred, hence Disney's decision. That's a really interesting tidbit of information to hear!

Mama Odie was originally supposed to have a bigger role in TPATF which probably explains why Deja got the character. Otherwise, her role is super limited in the final film which doesn't reflect the major characters he usually works on.

I think Eric's understanding of Sebastian is because he can live on both land and sea. Which is also why Sebastian actually lived in the human world beforehand. I'm curious if Eric could understand Flounder or even Scuttle for that matter. I can't remember if they ever talk to him in TLMII. Scuttle might have, but Flounder's role was pretty limited there. I do remember the episode Metal Fish but I don't remember that line of Ariel's. I'm glad they included that though since it's a very valid point.

I always wished that the deleted song from Enchanted was included on the DVD/Blu-Ray especially since Menken mentioned that it would be. Sadly, it never was. Neither was Queen Narissa's deleted song although the lyrics for that were released online at least which is more than what I can say about Nancy and Edward's song.

Enchanted is Menken's best work imo since the Disney Renaissance. That and his Sindbad song for the Tokyo ride. For me, Tangled was mediocre and to answer your later question about Vanellope's song in WIR2, I really was not a fan. I mentioned my take on it in the actual WIR2 thread, but to reiterate here, I thought the melody was derivative of True Love's Kiss, and the lyrics weren't that great. I blame that more on the fact that he was constrained by the Slaughter Race setting. Also the song just doesn't sound good but that I blame on Sarah Silverman's singing.

That's true, there is some comedy in the climax for Hercules although it's pretty minimal, which is saying something for this movie. And as a result, it doesn't feel that out of place. The ending with Meg's death and Hercules journeying to the Underworld to save her spirit by sacrificing himself in a deal with Hades is one of the highlights of the film, probably because the dramatic aspects of the film are underscored rather than the comedy for once.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Well, I know that you've always said that I shouldn't apologize for my late replies, but I'm a decent goodie-two shoes, so I'll apologize, anyways ;)

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I feel like most of the pathos is glossed over in The Jungle Book though. For example, Mowgli leaves his family of wolves that he was raised by and we barely get a good-bye from him. He's more upset about leaving the jungle than he is from leaving the wolves who I don't think he ever references ever again. The wolves are so minimal in the film that I used to not remember them at all and assumed that Bagheera was the one who raised him. The live-action film definitely fixed this. The only really emotional scenes in the animated version I can think of are when Baloo realizes he has to tell Mowgli to go back to the man village and again when Baloo is believed to be dead.

Fair enough. I'm not saying that there's plenty of pathos in The Jungle Book, but it does have a couple of pensive and mellow moments. More than it's given credit for, actually. Though it's rightfully labeled for being Walt's most happy-go-lucky film, it's not that it's full of glee all the time.
In my adult years I've pondered about the lack of screentime from the wolves and how Mowgli never brings them up again (though it's mentioned in the Junior Novelization of the film that he missed them). But I blame the bad writing for it.

And you're right about the live action remake fixing this, since Mowgli's was practically facing the issues of being a wolf or a man. Yet for all the lack of pathos of The Jungle Book, at least Baloo and Mowgli's relationship is heartfelt and genuine.

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Another jungle film would have to follow some pretty stiff competition.

What do you mean by that?

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Ray's family and friends probably seemed more appealing because they barely had any screentime. I'm sure they'd be as bad as him or almost as bad (besides the Evangeline delusions) if we got to see more of them.

Could be. I just found them to be appealing in their short presentation. Which made me feel for them when Ray's death finally came.

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I didn't realize that test audiences all were in favor of Chief dying. I also figured the opposite would have occurred, hence Disney's decision. That's a really interesting tidbit of information to hear!

You're welcome.

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Mama Odie was originally supposed to have a bigger role in TPATF which probably explains why Deja got the character. Otherwise, her role is super limited in the final film which doesn't reflect the major characters he usually works on.

Though her role is limited, it's not as it's as limited as it could've been. I think that her screentime is fair, but to be honest, I never thought that she was that appealing. She certainly fills the archetype of being a grandmotherly figure, though she would've been comparble to The Good Fairy in Cinderella. But I find her to be more comparable to the likes of Grandmother Willow, Grandmother Fa from Mulan, Tanana from Brother Bear. And now recently Gramma Tala from Moana. Though Mama Odie was meant to be a fairy godmother, her characterization is more in tune with the other aforementioned older ladies.

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I think Eric's understanding of Sebastian is because he can live on both land and sea. Which is also why Sebastian actually lived in the human world beforehand. I'm curious if Eric could understand Flounder or even Scuttle for that matter.

Of course it's debatable, but remember that Ariel tells Scuttle to shut up when he approaches her in the ship, when she's looking at the humans. This has been debated from fans and even by The Three Commentears.

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I can't remember if they ever talk to him in TLMII. Scuttle might have, but Flounder's role was pretty limited there.

What all even more remarkable is how Flounder is essentially grown up in the sequel and even a father, without having a mate :P

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I do remember the episode Metal Fish but I don't remember that line of Ariel's. I'm glad they included that though since it's a very valid point.

True, but frankly that point would've been relevant for the movie. It would've been a epiphany for Triton.

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I always wished that the deleted song from Enchanted was included on the DVD/Blu-Ray especially since Menken mentioned that it would be. Sadly, it never was. Neither was Queen Narissa's deleted song although the lyrics for that were released online at least which is more than what I can say about Nancy and Edward's song.

I wished those scenes were included, too. But I didn't know about Narissa's deleted song. But the bonus features of Enchanted were pretty sparse, anyways.

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Enchanted is Menken's best work imo since the Disney Renaissance. That and his Sindbad song for the Tokyo ride.

Oh, I never heard that one. I know that Menken made a song for The Snow Queen ride, though, if I'm not mistaking. But I've never heard that one either.

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And to answer your later question about Vanellope's song in WIR2, I really was not a fan. I mentioned my take on it in the actual WIR2 thread, but to reiterate here, I thought the melody was derivative of True Love's Kiss, and the lyrics weren't that great. I blame that more on the fact that he was constrained by the Slaughter Race setting. Also the song just doesn't sound good but that I blame on Sarah Silverman's singing.

OK. I wasn't to keen on the song, either. It wasn't bad, it just could've been done better. It had Menken's significant sound, but otherwise it wasn't great.

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That's true, there is some comedy in the climax for Hercules although it's pretty minimal, which is saying something for this movie. And as a result, it doesn't feel that out of place. The ending with Meg's death and Hercules journeying to the Underworld to save her spirit by sacrificing himself in a deal with Hades is one of the highlights of the film, probably because the dramatic aspects of the film are underscored rather than the comedy for once.

True. But Hercules has several moments like that, in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:35 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Well, I know that you've always said that I shouldn't apologize for my late replies, but I'm a decent goodie-two shoes, so I'll apologize, anyways ;)

Fair enough. I'm not saying that there's plenty of pathos in The Jungle Book, but it does have a couple of pensive and mellow moments. More than it's given credit for, actually. Though it's rightfully labeled for being Walt's most happy-go-lucky film, it's not that it's full of glee all the time.
In my adult years I've pondered about the lack of screentime from the wolves and how Mowgli never brings them up again (though it's mentioned in the Junior Novelization of the film that he missed them). But I blame the bad writing for it.

And you're right about the live action remake fixing this, since Mowgli's was practically facing the issues of being a wolf or a man. Yet for all the lack of pathos of The Jungle Book, at least Baloo and Mowgli's relationship is heartfelt and genuine.

What do you mean by that?

Could be. I just found them to be appealing in their short presentation. Which made me feel for them when Ray's death finally came.

Though her role is limited, it's not as it's as limited as it could've been. I think that her screentime is fair, but to be honest, I never thought that she was that appealing. She certainly fills the archetype of being a grandmotherly figure, though she would've been comparble to The Good Fairy in Cinderella. But I find her to be more comparable to the likes of Grandmother Willow, Grandmother Fa from Mulan, Tanana from Brother Bear. And now recently Gramma Tala from Moana. Though Mama Odie was meant to be a fairy godmother, her characterization is more in tune with the other aforementioned older ladies.

Of course it's debatable, but remember that Ariel tells Scuttle to shut up when he approaches her in the ship, when she's looking at the humans. This has been debated from fans and even by The Three Commentears.

What all even more remarkable is how Flounder is essentially grown up in the sequel and even a father, without having a mate :P

True, but frankly that point would've been relevant for the movie. It would've been a epiphany for Triton.

I wished those scenes were included, too. But I didn't know about Narissa's deleted song. But the bonus features of Enchanted were pretty sparse, anyways.

Oh, I never heard that one. I know that Menken made a song for The Snow Queen ride, though, if I'm not mistaking. But I've never heard that one either.

OK. I wasn't to keen on the song, either. It wasn't bad, it just could've been done better. It had Menken's significant sound, but otherwise it wasn't great.

True. But Hercules has several moments like that, in my opinion.

Lol, that's all right. I know the beginning of winter is always a very busy time of the year for most.

Yeah, you're right, there are several emotional moments in the animated Jungle Book, mainly the moments dealing with Mowgli and Baloo as you said. I haven't read the junior novelization of this film but I'm glad to hear that Mowgli does mention his wolf family there.

When I said that another jungle follow would have to follow some stiff competition, I meant that since The Jungle Book, The Lion King, and Tarzan are so highly regarded, if Disney ever did make a new jungle animated film, it would have a lot to measure up to.

I'm glad somebody liked the fireflies in TPATF because I really didn't like any of them. Maybe if we had seen the ohters with greater screentime I wouldn't have found them to be as insufferable as Ray was.

Good point that Mama Odie was always meant to be like Cinderella's fairy godmother so her role was always somewhat limited. I just didn't care for how the whole plotline of the film is to visit her and then they arrive for like five minutes and are told that they have everything they already need. It felt too Wizard of Oz-like and at least in Oz, they have multiple meetings with the Wizard. He doesn't tell them this truth about themselves until the very end and after they've vanquished the witch. In TPATF, pretty much as soon as they meet Mama Odie they're told that she can't help them and that's the end of her role.

I never thought about the Scuttle scene where Ariel tells him to shut up. However, it's possible that the humans would just have heard him squawking. Even if they couldn't understand him, they'd hear him and thus their attention would be diverted to him and then Ariel by extension.

I'm assuming Flounder did have a wife in TLMII but we just didn't see her. There's enough female versions of him in the books and comics that you could imagine one of them was Flounder's wife.

You're right that they should have mentioned in TLM movie that merpeople are half-human so Triton comes off as especially bigoted.

Yeah I wish Enchanted had more bonus features. At least some sort of art book or making of book.

The Snow Queen song that Menken wrote for the scrapped stage show is Love Can't Be Denied. The Sindbad one is called Compass of Your Heart.

I'm hoping Menken will get some better material in the future to work with than WIR2.

I guess Phil has some emotional moments in Hercules but I was never too fond of him. He seemed like a raunchy little goat man.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:44 pm 
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Yeah, you're right, there are several emotional moments in the animated Jungle Book, mainly the moments dealing with Mowgli and Baloo as you said. I haven't read the junior novelization of this film but I'm glad to hear that Mowgli does mention his wolf family there.

I know, right? What's even more remarkable is how the wolves don't appear in the sequel and nor are they mentioned.

Quote:
When I said that another jungle follow would have to follow some stiff competition, I meant that since The Jungle Book, The Lion King, and Tarzan are so highly regarded, if Disney ever did make a new jungle animated film, it would have a lot to measure up to.

True. But I wonder if we'll ever get another jungle film that will follow in those footsteps. In the Audio Commentary for Tarzan this is mentioned, that the creators had to measure up a movie that would be good enough to fill in those footsteps.
Yet for the huge fanbase Tarzan has, it's still been regarded as being underrated compared to The Jungle Book and The Lion King for some reason. I realize that I have a certain soft spot for Walt's The Jungle Book, despite it's faults. It may be nostalgia, but still.

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Good point that Mama Odie was always meant to be like Cinderella's fairy godmother so her role was always somewhat limited.

Thanks :)

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I just didn't care for how the whole plotline of the film is to visit her and then they arrive for like five minutes and are told that they have everyhing they already need. It felt too Wizard of Oz-like and at least in Oz, they have multiple meetings with the Wizard. He doesn't tell them this truth about themselves until the very end and after they've vanquished the witch. In TPATF, pretty much as soon as they meet Mama Odie they're told that she can't help them and that's the end of her role.

Funny how you mentioned that, because I've heard reviews about the structure of TPATF being reminiscent of Wizard of Oz, which I can see.

Quote:
I'm assuming Flounder did have a wife in TLMII but we just didn't see her. There's enough female versions of him in the books and comics that you could imagine one of them was Flounder's wife.

Perhaps they wanted to precede Finding Nemo by having a fatherly fish figure? Just kidding :P

Quote:
Yeah I wish Enchanted had more bonus features. At least some sort of art book or making of book.

Me too. It's truly a pity, since it was the return for hand drawn, after all. But Enchanted had very little merchandise, to be honest. Perhaps the sequel will have an art of-book?

Quote:
The Snow Queen song that Menken wrote for the scrapped stage show is Love Can't Be Denied. The Sindbad one is called Compass of Your Heart.

OK. Have you heard the new songs that Menken made for the Tangled show?

Quote:
I'm hoping Menken will get some better material in the future to work with than WIR2.

Me too. Now that Lasseter is finally gone, perhaps he'll get more work in the future? It makes perfect sense why he was in Enchanted, due to how Lasseter had no autority over the live action department. But remarkably enough, he did have an input on Disney's live action remakes, which was proven in the live action remake of The Jungle Book.

Just wondering, do you like Kingdom Hearts?

Quote:
I guess Phil has some emotional moments in Hercules but I was never too fond of him. He seemed like a raunchy little goat man.

I know many people don't like him, but I had nothing against him. He was likable enough for me. Perhaps it was Danny DeVito's work that made him off-putting to some?

Btw, recently I bought the Art of-book for Ralph Breaks the Internet and it was utterly dissapointing. What's even more annoying that the writing is structured like a Facebook-chat. I mean, it's fine to structure it after social medias and Internet, but still. It made me want to groan.

What do you think of the Lizzie McGuire reboot?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:24 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I know, right? What's even more remarkable is how the wolves don't appear in the sequel and nor are they mentioned.

True. But I wonder if we'll ever get another jungle film that will follow in those footsteps. In the Audio Commentary for Tarzan this is mentioned, that the creators had to measure up a movie that would be good enough to fill in those footsteps.
Yet for the huge fanbase Tarzan has, it's still been regarded as being underrated compared to The Jungle Book and The Lion King for some reason. I realize that I have a certain soft spot for Walt's The Jungle Book, despite it's faults. It may be nostalgia, but still.

Funny how you mentioned that, because I've heard reviews about the structure of TPATF being reminiscent of Wizard of Oz, which I can see.

Perhaps they wanted to precede Finding Nemo by having a fatherly fish figure? Just kidding :P

Me too. It's truly a pity, since it was the return for hand drawn, after all. But Enchanted had very little merchandise, to be honest. Perhaps the sequel will have an art of-book?

OK. Have you heard the new songs that Menken made for the Tangled show?

Me too. Now that Lasseter is finally gone, perhaps he'll get more work in the future? It makes perfect sense why he was in Enchanted, due to how Lasseter had no autority over the live action department. But remarkably enough, he did have an input on Disney's live action remakes, which was proven in the live action remake of The Jungle Book.

Just wondering, do you like Kingdom Hearts?

I know many people don't like him, but I had nothing against him. He was likable enough for me. Perhaps it was Danny DeVito's work that made him off-putting to some?

Btw, recently I bought the Art of-book for Ralph Breaks the Internet and it was utterly dissapointing. What's even more annoying that the writing is structured like a Facebook-chat. I mean, it's fine to structure it after social medias and Internet, but still. It made me want to groan.

What do you think of the Lizzie McGuire reboot?

The funny thing is that I've seen the Jungle Book sequel so many times but I never even noticed that the wolves are never mentioned. Probably because their role is so minuscule even in the first one.

Yeah, Tarzan seems to be forgotten these days. Even though the film was the biggest hit since BATB and before Tangled. Plus it was the last Disney film to win the Oscar for Best Song until Frozen. The soundtrack was probably the last really popular Disney soundtrack until Frozen (or maybe Tangled or Enchanted). Maybe it's because Tarzan is such an iconic character in general, whether its films, books, comics, etc. that the Disney version just wasn't able to supplant the public consciousness's main version of him. I think the fact that "boy" merchandise didn't sell very well also made Disney less likely to market films like Hercules and Tarzan since they didn't have the benefit of being a Walt-classic, a Disney Princess film, or The Lion King. Finally, Disney losing the rights to Tarzan meant they couldn't even acknowledge the film for the most part anymore.

I've never read anything about comparisons between TPATF and The Wizard of Oz's general structure. The only thing that comes to mind is what I mentioned with Mama Odie telling the characters that they already had what they needed.

Lol, if only makers of The Little Mermaid II were as invested in the quality of the film to be prescient enough to foreshadow Finding Nemo.

Yeah, I remember that Enchanted didn't get very much merchandise either. I'm curious as to why since it was meant to be the first DP film added to the franchise and TPATF (which actually did end up being the first DP film added to the franchise) got tons of merchandise. I remember seeing a lot for TPATF but very little for Tangled. Maybe the Amy Adams likeness stuff made them decide to limit merchandise. It's also possible that since this was the first return to the classic Disney formula, Disney was still wary about how the film would be received so to be cautious, they didn't bother making as much merchandise.

I've heard of the new Menken songs for the Tangled show but I haven't actually bothered to listen to them. I heard the songs were just ok but nothing really great and not memorable. Since I don't like the movie and don't even like the movie's songs, I didn't see the point in listening to them.

Wait, who had input in the live-action remake of The Jungle Book? Are you referring to Menken or Lasseter (I'm assuming Lasseter)? What did he contribute to the film?

I've never played the Kingdom Hearts games but I've seen stuff from the franchise. I love the idea of journeying to the different worlds of the Disney movies and interacting with the story. I might be interested in Kingdom Hearts 3 but most of the films are from the Revival era which I don't care much for. And even the returning classics don't pique my interest much since I'm not that big a Hercules fan.

I don't mind Danny DeVito although he's not my favorite either. I think that's my take on Phil as well. I don't hate him but I can't bring myself to care too much about him either.

I'm sorry to hear that you were disappointed with the WIR2 art book, but I can't say I'm surprised. Lol, the structure of the book sounds awful, being based off of Facebook chats and all. I knew the movie would not age well but it's a new low when even the art book will be outdated in a few years or so.

Lizzie McGuire was never my fav Disney show but I always loved the movie. So I'm excited to hear about the reboot! My first thought was that this means that reboots for Hannah Montana, the Suite Life of Zack and Cody, and Wizards of Waverly Place are imminent too. I wish Phil of the Future and Sonny With a Chance were better remembered but they're not viewed as classics the way the other shows I mentioned are. A pity, since I always loved Aly and AJ and even though Demi's best Disney role was Camp Rock, I loved Sonny With a Chance as well because of her. Especially her chemistry with Sterling Knight who sort of disappeared after that.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:30 pm 
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The funny thing is that I've seen the Jungle Book sequel so many times but I never even noticed that the wolves are never mentioned. Probably because their role is so minuscule even in the first one.

Really? Why have you seen that movie so many times?

I don't know if I've said this before, but one of the redeeamble things about the sequel is it's storyline. Unlike the first movie, the story is better crafted and actually gives more weight and depth to Mowgli's dilemma in a reasonant way.

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Yeah, Tarzan seems to be forgotten these days. Even though the film was the biggest hit since BATB and before Tangled. Plus it was the last Disney film to win the Oscar for Best Song until Frozen. The soundtrack was probably the last really popular Disney soundtrack until Frozen (or maybe Tangled or Enchanted).

I never felt that Tarzan was as forgotten as some people wants it to be. But as you've said, it's gotten the underrated-staple. But to nitpick a little (sorry for doing so), it was the most successful film since The Lion King (which is a synergy, for all the similarites it has with TLK). And as for the soundtrack comparisons, the general public seems to act like Pocahontas was the last successful Disney movie before Frozen,

Quote:
Maybe it's because Tarzan is such an iconic character in general, whether its films, books, comics, etc. that the Disney version just wasn't able to supplant the public consciousness's main version of him. I think the fact that "boy" merchandise didn't sell very well also made Disney less likely to market films like Hercules and Tarzan since they didn't have the benefit of being a Walt-classic, a Disney Princess film, or The Lion King. Finally, Disney losing the rights to Tarzan meant they couldn't even acknowledge the film for the most part anymore.

Most likely. But where's your sources for Disney losing the rights to it?

Quote:
Yeah, I remember that Enchanted didn't get very much merchandise either. I'm curious as to why since it was meant to be the first DP film added to the franchise and TPATF (which actually did end up being the first DP film added to the franchise) got tons of merchandise. I remember seeing a lot for TPATF but very little for Tangled. Maybe the Amy Adams likeness stuff made them decide to limit merchandise. It's also possible that since this was the first return to the classic Disney formula, Disney was still wary about how the film would be received so to be cautious, they didn't bother making as much merchandise.

Probably, but also due to that Enchanted was mostly a live action property, anyways. Could be, I dunno. I know about the Amy Adams-likeness, but I still found it odd, because the animated Giselle still looks distinctive enough to actually not be strikingly reminiscent of Amy Adams. But at least there were some dolls released of Giselle (but oddly enough, not of Prince Edward) and they were fine.

Yeah, I think TPATF got more merchandise than Tangled, but frankly it's not as Tangled got very little merchandise, either. Since Rapunzel has been ingrained in the Princess franchise, her movie has gotten more merchandise ever since.

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I've heard of the new Menken songs for the Tangled show but I haven't actually bothered to listen to them. I heard the songs were just ok but nothing really great and not memorable. Since I don't like the movie and don't even like the movie's songs, I didn't see the point in listening to them.

I've heard them and I didn't went gaga for them, either. They were forgettable and generic, though the tavern song, When She Returns, is more listenable and gettable than the rest. At least the first song writtens fits the folk-esque vibe Menken wanted with the soundtrack from the get-go.

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Wait, who had input in the live-action remake of The Jungle Book? Are you referring to Menken or Lasseter (I'm assuming Lasseter)? What did he contribute to the film?

As you assumed, it was Lasseter. Or though he's not solely credited, at least Pixar got credit for helping out.

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I've never played the Kingdom Hearts games but I've seen stuff from the franchise. I love the idea of journeying to the different worlds of the Disney movies and interacting with the story. I might be interested in Kingdom Hearts 3 but most of the films are from the Revival era which I don't care much for. And even the returning classics don't pique my interest much since I'm not that big a Hercules fan.

I've never played the Kingdom Hearts games either, but I knew about them and seen clips from them on YouTube. At least it's a neat fanfiction and something that doesn't insult Disney or tarnishes it. Yet, just like you, I'm dissapointed by the Revival era and the Pixar pantheon getting that much exposure, instead of certain movies that were designed to have their entry (*cough, The Jungle Book, cough*). Of course Pixar is a part of Disney's pantheon, but still. It's remarkable that Pocahontas hasn't been included, but perhaps Disney don't consider her movie to have that much of an appeal to the Kingdom Hearts games.

Quote:
I don't mind Danny DeVito although he's not my favorite either. I think that's my take on Phil as well. I don't hate him but I can't bring myself to care too much about him either.

The funny thing is that 1997 was my first real exposure to Danny DeVito. I probably saw him before it, but 1997 was the year that I saw Roald Dahl's Matilda and a friend of mine (at the time) told me that Matilda's dad was playing Phil.

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I'm sorry to hear that you were disappointed with the WIR2 art book, but I can't say I'm surprised. Lol, the structure of the book sounds awful, being based off of Facebook chats and all. I knew the movie would not age well but it's a new low when even the art book will be outdated in a few years or so.

Thanks. The structure makes the book cringe-worthy and frankly less readable. The aging question of this movie has been debated. But despite that Disney had the unwritten norm of being timeless, it's not as Disney has always sticks to that rule, either (*cough, Aladdin, cough*)

Quote:
Lizzie McGuire was never my fav Disney show but I always loved the movie. So I'm excited to hear about the reboot!

I was a teenager when Lizzie McGuire came out, so I was sort-of in the right age group when the show came out (though the wrong gender :P). I was sort of into celebrities, so I have a nostalgic viewpoint on Lizzie McGuire and Hilary Duff (and yes, I thought she was hot). The show was cute enough, despite that it was not as great as I remember it, but it was good and entertaining enough. But there's a certain purism towards the older Disney Channel than compared to what came afterwards, since the Lizzie-era is regarded as being acceptable to like, whereas the following era being perceived as otherwise.

As for the movie, I remember that my mom wanted to see it theatrically before I even saw the series (which is the reason we didn't see it theatrically and she didn't want to see it in other formats, hahaha). When I first rented it, I thought it was generic and forgettable, but later viewings has made me to appreciate the movie even more and not only for nostalgic reasons. It made me realize that it's cute and endearing. And I like the fact that Paolo is not just a goodie-goodie, but actually has a hidden agenda, which makes the movie more realistic than being just a generic, squeaky-clean romance.

Quote:
My first thought was that this means that reboots for Hannah Montana, the Suite Life of Zack and Cody, and Wizards of Waverly Place are imminent too. I wish Phil of the Future and Sonny With a Chance were better remembered but they're not viewed as classics the way the other shows I mentioned are. A pity, since I always loved Aly and AJ and even though Demi's best Disney role was Camp Rock, I loved Sonny With a Chance as well because of her. Especially her chemistry with Sterling Knight who sort of disappeared after that.

There was actually a time where the Disney Channel shows were a guilty pleasure of mine, regardless of their low quality and how it's been politically correct to loathe them (despite not being in the age group, but let's be real, they were so overexposed that it was hard to miss their hype). And I happened to regularly watch Sonny With a Chance in the midst of the overexposure of the Disney Channel era. As you've said, Demi Lovato's chemistry with Sterling Knight was pretty evident (despite of Demi's lackluster acting), yet the show was entertaining, despite not being oustanding.

I'll admit that Camp Rock was a guilty pleasure of mine and I thought it was better than High School Musical, because of it's music and overall vibe. The sequel was cute enough, but still inferior to it's predecessor (and frankly, with a too politically correct storyline). High School Musical 2 was a cute movie, though and better than it's generic predecessor.

What are your thoughts on Phil of the Future, Hannah Montana, The Suite Life of Zack and Cody and Wizards of Waverly Place then?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:23 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Really? Why have you seen that movie so many times?

I don't know if I've said this before, but one of the redeeamble things about the sequel is it's storyline. Unlike the first movie, the story is better crafted and actually gives more weight and depth to Mowgli's dilemma in a reasonant way.

I never felt that Tarzan was as forgotten as some people wants it to be. But as you've said, it's gotten the underrated-staple. But to nitpick a little (sorry for doing so), it was the most successful film since The Lion King (which is a synergy, for all the similarites it has with TLK). And as for the soundtrack comparisons, the general public seems to act like Pocahontas was the last successful Disney movie before Frozen,

Most likely. But where's your sources for Disney losing the rights to it?

Probably, but also due to that Enchanted was mostly a live action property, anyways. Could be, I dunno. I know about the Amy Adams-likeness, but I still found it odd, because the animated Giselle still looks distinctive enough to actually not be strikingly reminiscent of Amy Adams. But at least there were some dolls released of Giselle (but oddly enough, not of Prince Edward) and they were fine.

Yeah, I think TPATF got more merchandise than Tangled, but frankly it's not as Tangled got very little merchandise, either. Since Rapunzel has been ingrained in the Princess franchise, her movie has gotten more merchandise ever since.

I've heard them and I didn't went gaga for them, either. They were forgettable and generic, though the tavern song, When She Returns, is more listenable and gettable than the rest. At least the first song writtens fits the folk-esque vibe Menken wanted with the soundtrack from the get-go.

As you assumed, it was Lasseter. Or though he's not solely credited, at least Pixar got credit for helping out.

I've never played the Kingdom Hearts games either, but I knew about them and seen clips from them on YouTube. At least it's a neat fanfiction and something that doesn't insult Disney or tarnishes it. Yet, just like you, I'm dissapointed by the Revival era and the Pixar pantheon getting that much exposure, instead of certain movies that were designed to have their entry (*cough, The Jungle Book, cough*). Of course Pixar is a part of Disney's pantheon, but still. It's remarkable that Pocahontas hasn't been included, but perhaps Disney don't consider her movie to have that much of an appeal to the Kingdom Hearts games.

The funny thing is that 1997 was my first real exposure to Danny DeVito. I probably saw him before it, but 1997 was the year that I saw Roald Dahl's Matilda and a friend of mine (at the time) told me that Matilda's dad was playing Phil.

Thanks. The structure makes the book cringe-worthy and frankly less readable. The aging question of this movie has been debated. But despite that Disney had the unwritten norm of being timeless, it's not as Disney has always sticks to that rule, either (*cough, Aladdin, cough*)

I was a teenager when Lizzie McGuire came out, so I was sort-of in the right age group when the show came out (though the wrong gender :P). I was sort of into celebrities, so I have a nostalgic viewpoint on Lizzie McGuire and Hilary Duff (and yes, I thought she was hot). The show was cute enough, despite that it was not as great as I remember it, but it was good and entertaining enough. But there's a certain purism towards the older Disney Channel than compared to what came afterwards, since the Lizzie-era is regarded as being acceptable to like, whereas the following era being perceived as otherwise.

As for the movie, I remember that my mom wanted to see it theatrically before I even saw the series (which is the reason we didn't see it theatrically and she didn't want to see it in other formats, hahaha). When I first rented it, I thought it was generic and forgettable, but later viewings has made me to appreciate the movie even more and not only for nostalgic reasons. It made me realize that it's cute and endearing. And I like the fact that Paolo is not just a goodie-goodie, but actually has a hidden agenda, which makes the movie more realistic than being just a generic, squeaky-clean romance.

There was actually a time where the Disney Channel shows were a guilty pleasure of mine, regardless of their low quality and how it's been politically correct to loathe them (despite not being in the age group, but let's be real, they were so overexposed that it was hard to miss their hype). And I happened to regularly watch Sonny With a Chance in the midst of the overexposure of the Disney Channel era. As you've said, Demi Lovato's chemistry with Sterling Knight was pretty evident (despite of Demi's lackluster acting), yet the show was entertaining, despite not being oustanding.

I'll admit that Camp Rock was a guilty pleasure of mine and I thought it was better than High School Musical, because of it's music and overall vibe. The sequel was cute enough, but still inferior to it's predecessor (and frankly, with a too politically correct storyline). High School Musical 2 was a cute movie, though and better than it's generic predecessor.

What are your thoughts on Phil of the Future, Hannah Montana, The Suite Life of Zack and Cody and Wizards of Waverly Place then?

I've seen The Jungle Book 2 a lot because it came out when I was quite young and I remember the Disney Channel showed it a lot. I think I may have owned the DVD back then too. I haven't seen it in forever though so I don't really remember what Mowgli's emotional arc was but I do remember that the story seemed like it was more coherently structured than the first.

I've seen that a lot of Disney Merchandise will feature characters up to Pocahontas, but not include characters from films beyond that. So I think your statement that the general public forgets songs after Pocahontas applies true to not just music. Which really does make the films that came later on seem to be even more underrated and forgotten.

I don't have a source for it but I think it's common knowledge in the forums here that the rights for Tarzan reverted to the Edgar Rice Burroughs Estate. I'm sure there's a thread here somewhere detailing that.

I don't think Prince Edward got a single doll. Robert got a few but strangely Prince Edward was completely neglected. You'd think they'd seize the opportunity to sell more prince dolls or at least try to hide that Edward won't be her main love interest. I suppose they felt that Patrick Dempsey was too lovable amongst the female audience for them to focus on another male character.

Yeah, Tangled I don't remember a lot of merchandise for upfront but she's become one of the top selling princesses since which more than makes up for that. I read an article once that up till Frozen, all the princess films had a glut of merchandise made for (TPATF, Tangled, and Brave) but soon the public would loose interest and so all this merchandise would just be sitting around with no one buying it. So they had to heavily markdown Tiana, Rapunzel, and Merida products. Rapunzel, at least, seemed to grow out of this later on but I'm not surprised that the other two never became huge sellers. In fact, along with Pocahontas, they're probably the least selling princesses, although Merida still gets a little bit of love.

Perhaps, I'll listen to the first song written for the Tangled musical since you described it as a style that Menken originally wanted to go with.

Oh, I didn't realize that Lasseter helped out on The Jungle Book live-action film and was credited through Pixar as a proxy.

I wish The Jungle Book and Pocahontas would be included as well. Seems odd that when they did Hunchback, they didn't push for Pocahontas. It seems a little late now to include it since they're focusing so much on newer IPs.

Yes, I'm familiar with Danny DeVito through Matilda too so that was a good year for him, at least when it comes to an introduction to the younger generation through kids movies.

Aladdin, minus a couple of jokes, still holds up well imo. I never understood a lot of the Genie's jokes, and I'm sure that today that is especially true, but people still seem to love him regardless.

My issue with Lizzie McGuire is the opposite of yours then since I was too young when it was released. It was only near the end of the show's run when I started getting into the Disney Channel. So this show and Even Stevens sort of missed my radar and although I did see episodes of them both, I never liked them as much as Raven, Zach and Cody, etc. What I liked most about the Lizzie McGuire movie was the Rome setting, Ungermeyer's character, and Hillary Duff playing a double role. Plus, I lived and breathed that song she sings at the end "What Dreams are Made of." It's funny though that you felt it necessary to spoilertag the reveal at the end but applaudable nevertheless. How did you feel about Miranda's exclusion? Since I wasn't a big fan of the show, I was never bothered by her absence and I liked the emphasis on Kate and Ethan, but I'm curious as to what a fan of the show felt about that.

BTW, have you heard of Andi Mack? It's a relatively new Disney Channel show made from the maker of Lizzie McGuire. It's quite good, which I didn't think I would ever say for a Disney Channel show, and surprisingly progressive.

I was a huge fan of High School Musical back in the day along with Camp Rock. I don't think I could decide which I liked more since I loved the music from both franchises. I was never a fan of the Jonas Brothers, but besides Demi, I loved the supporting cast for Camp Rock, namely Alyson Stoner's character, Tess (the mean girl), and the two girls who played Tess' friends but ended up dumping her. Whereas in High School Musical, I think the entire cast had great chemistry although my favorites were Zac Efron (for his looks I'm not ashamed to say) and Ashley Tisdale's Sharpay. Lol, I never cared much for Gabriella and I always wanted Troy and Sharpay to end up together. I remember seeing High School Musical in concert, featuring the entire original cast minus Zac Efron, as well as High School Musical on Ice. What makes you think that Camp Rock 2 had a politically correct storyline?

Phil of the Future is the show I haven't seen in the longest. To be honest, it wasn't that great, but since I loved Aly Michalka, I enjoyed this show. I also loved Pim, the little sister. Ricky Ulman's character was cute although I was too young back then to notice that but I've noticed it now lol. I liked his role in the Disney Channel Original Movie Pixel Perfect as well.

Hannah Montana was my absolutely fav show back then! I had the dolls, DVDs, soundtracks, books, etc. I was obsessed with Miley Cyrus back in the day and went to watch her at the Rodeo. She was opening up for the Cheetah Girls and this was just around the time that the Cheetah Girls' popularity was waning because High School Musical and Hannah Montana had replaced them, so most people bought tickets for their show just to watch Hannah Montana's opening act. When she was done, a lot of people left the show before the Cheetah Girls had even started.

I liked Zack and Cody a lot back then too especially since in later years, it would stand out more as it wasn't as female-oriented so it was a refreshing break. I loved London Tipton though and I had a crush on Cody without even knowing it back then lol. This was another show where the entire cast had great chemistry, especially Moseby's character. I didn't love The Suite Life on Deck as much. Although I was happy Moseby and London were back, I wish they kept Maddie and I hated the other new characters. Debby Ryan has never caught on for me and I'd say much of the general public despite the fact that Disney has given her so many roles. I also hated both of the two fat guys brought onto the show as annoying comic relief since it seemed like most of the jokes were just about their weight. They were not funny and really detracted from the show's quality.

Wizards was my least favorite I guess probably just because towards the middle of the show was the time I was aging out of the Disney Channel days. Selena never really caught my attention the way Miley and Demi did, since I adored both of them (and Ashley Tisdale too).


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:28 pm 
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Quote:
I've seen The Jungle Book 2 a lot because it came out when I was quite young and I remember the Disney Channel showed it a lot. I think I may have owned the DVD back then too. I haven't seen it in forever though so I don't really remember what Mowgli's emotional arc was but I do remember that the story seemed like it was more coherently structured than the first.

Finally someone else who sees it! Thank you! :P It seems like the general public hates The Jungle Book 2 and while I agree that it may not be brilliant, the congruity of the storyline makes up for it.

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I've seen that a lot of Disney Merchandise will feature characters up to Pocahontas, but not include characters from films beyond that. So I think your statement that the general public forgets songs after Pocahontas applies true to not just music. Which really does make the films that came later on seem to be even more underrated and forgotten.

The Three Commentears mentioned this in their commentary, that Pocahontas the character is more marketed than her movie itself. Perhaps it's not strange, after all.

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I don't think Prince Edward got a single doll. Robert got a few but strangely Prince Edward was completely neglected. You'd think they'd seize the opportunity to sell more prince dolls or at least try to hide that Edward won't be her main love interest. I suppose they felt that Patrick Dempsey was too lovable amongst the female audience for them to focus on another male character.

That may be the reason for why Prince Edward wasn't given a doll. But speaking of Patrick Dempsey, I found him the opposite of lovable in this movie. I usually like him, but I felt that he was just unappealing in every sense here. What's even worse that he and Amy Adams lacked chemistry, but I've ranted about him before.

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Yeah, Tangled I don't remember a lot of merchandise for upfront but she's become one of the top selling princesses since which more than makes up for that. I read an article once that up till Frozen, all the princess films had a glut of merchandise made for (TPATF, Tangled, and Brave) but soon the public would loose interest and so all this merchandise would just be sitting around with no one buying it. So they had to heavily markdown Tiana, Rapunzel, and Merida products. Rapunzel, at least, seemed to grow out of this later on but I'm not surprised that the other two never became huge sellers. In fact, along with Pocahontas, they're probably the least selling princesses, although Merida still gets a little bit of love.

True, but Merida is a remarkable inclusion, due to her being a Pixar property and a non-singing Princess (since a stock trait with a Disney Princess is her being able to sing, why having Merida in it?). And her movie got a lot of merchandise when it was released. I know about Rapunzel's popularity in the lineup. And do you believe in the theories of the non-Caucasian Princesses getting less recognition than the white ones?

It's a pity that Disney didn't succeed to make Moana it's own brand, just as they did with Frozen. I know Disney were desperately trying to delineate her from the brand, but they didn't succeed.

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I wish The Jungle Book and Pocahontas would be included as well (in Kingdom Hearts). Seems odd that when they did Hunchback, they didn't push for Pocahontas. It seems a little late now to include it since they're focusing so much on newer IPs.

Perhaps it due to Pocahontas' appeal. I know there was a set created for The Jungle Book, but it's rumored that it was scrapped due to Tarzan having the same setting.

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Aladdin, minus a couple of jokes, still holds up well imo. I never understood a lot of the Genie's jokes, and I'm sure that today that is especially true, but people still seem to love him regardless.

To be honest, I never understood the Genie jokes as a child. But that's probably due to seeing a non-domestic version, so that's why :P

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My issue with Lizzie McGuire is the opposite of yours then since I was too young when it was released. It was only near the end of the show's run when I started getting into the Disney Channel. So this show and Even Stevens sort of missed my radar and although I did see episodes of them both, I never liked them as much as Raven, Zach and Cody, etc. What I liked most about the Lizzie McGuire movie was the Rome setting, Ungermeyer's character, and Hillary Duff playing a double role. Plus, I lived and breathed that song she sings at the end "What Dreams are Made of."

Yeah, Ungermeyer was a memorable character, though she had her contrived devices. There are some theories about the double parts being a foreshadowing to Hannah Montana's premise, but despite the constant comparisons, both Hannah Montana and Lizzie McGuire are completely different premises, not to mention genres. I find those comparisons of the shows to be shallow, but I guess the comparisons are after all fair, due to Miley Cyrus serving the same mold of Hilary Duff.

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It's funny though that you felt it necessary to spoilertag the reveal at the end but applaudable nevertheless.

Why wouldn't I? Regardless of this movie being over fifteen years old, a spoiler is mandatory, nonetheless.

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How did you feel about Miranda's exclusion? Since I wasn't a big fan of the show, I was never bothered by her absence and I liked the emphasis on Kate and Ethan, but I'm curious as to what a fan of the show felt about that.

I found her absence to be noteworthy. She was perhaps not my favorite character, but I still liked her nonetheless and she was a part of the show. Yet I disliked her abscence.

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BTW, have you heard of Andi Mack? It's a relatively new Disney Channel show made from the maker of Lizzie McGuire. It's quite good, which I didn't think I would ever say for a Disney Channel show, and surprisingly progressive.

No. I have given up Disney Channel. Mainly because I've outgrown these shows :P. The last Disney Channel show that I truly liked, was Austin & Ally. I'm almost ashamed to admit it, but it was a guilty pleasure of mine, because it's strenghts spoke to me; It had catchy songs and I simply adored Dez (despite that he could be annoying at times). It was quite Hannah Montana-esque, with a popstar-premise.

Otherwise, I did somewhat enjoy I Didn't Do It and Lab Rats occassionally.

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I was a huge fan of High School Musical back in the day along with Camp Rock. I don't think I could decide which I liked more since I loved the music from both franchises. I was never a fan of the Jonas Brothers, but besides Demi, I loved the supporting cast for Camp Rock, namely Alyson Stoner's character, Tess (the mean girl), and the two girls who played Tess' friends but ended up dumping her. Whereas in High School Musical, I think the entire cast had great chemistry although my favorites were Zac Efron (for his looks I'm not ashamed to say) and Ashley Tisdale's Sharpay. Lol, I never cared much for Gabriella and I always wanted Troy and Sharpay to end up together. I remember seeing High School Musical in concert, featuring the entire original cast minus Zac Efron, as well as High School Musical on Ice.

OK. For some reason Camp Rock spoke to me more than High School Musical, but I did enjoy the songs from High School Musical, nonetheless. I found the first Camp Rock more enjoyable as a whole. Joe Jonas character was quite douchy and unlikable in the first movie, but became more tolerable in the sequel.
I liked Alyson Stoner's character, though her arc was a little muddled in the first movie. Demi was just ok, but nothing outstanding. I do find it admirable that she was stripped down as being regularly and not having a lot of makeup.

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What makes you think that Camp Rock 2 had a politically correct storyline?

The whole storyline was essentially about passion vs. talent, compliance vs genuineness and a rivalry about saving a camp. It was just too sanitized that it became too politically correct way. Though to be fair, the ending was still satisfying that Camp Star won, yet Camp Rock got it's revival.

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Hannah Montana was my absolutely fav show back then! I had the dolls, DVDs, soundtracks, books, etc. I was obsessed with Miley Cyrus back in the day and went to watch her at the Rodeo. She was opening up for the Cheetah Girls and this was just around the time that the Cheetah Girls' popularity was waning because High School Musical and Hannah Montana had replaced them, so most people bought tickets for their show just to watch Hannah Montana's opening act. When she was done, a lot of people left the show before the Cheetah Girls had even started.

To be honest, Hannah Montana was an absolute guilty pleasure of mine when I started to watch the show at it's peak. It was corny, yet it was utterly enjoyable, nonetheless. I liked the songs and I especially loved Jackson, Oliver and occasionally her father. However, after a while I absolutely dreaded Miley Stewart, because she became a ruthless, selfish brat with essentially the same arc over and over again. I also disliked Rico, but the rest of the show made up for him. I also disliked the third season and the exclusion of Oliver in the fourth season. Yet the final conclusion was not as tidy and smoothly done as it could've been.

What do you think of the movie? I completely despise it with a burning passion. The film tries desperately to be more serious in tone, yet it messes with the questionable devices from the show (that Miley is never recognized at all when she performs Hoedown Throwdown and that her brown hair is actually shown when she takes her wig on in front of Travis. And rant about how you want about those problems being present in the show, but at least those problems are more congruous in the show). All the comedy is mostly reduced to cartoony slapstick and the love interests (for both her and her widow dad) never came to the still airing show.
And let me not start about the ending and final solution, which is downright cluttered, incongruous and hypocritical.
For all the cynical and corporate intents of the Hannah Montana product, the movie is the definite culmination of it, since it's just made for commercial purposes and would've reasonated more if it was meant to be a finale to the show. I know many people prefer the movie to the show due to it's more mature tone, but I utterly hate it due to my aforementioned reasons. At least it shall have praise for being more mature in tone, but it's aforementioned flaws tears it down.

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I liked Zack and Cody a lot back then too especially since in later years, it would stand out more as it wasn't as female-oriented so it was a refreshing break. I loved London Tipton though and I had a crush on Cody without even knowing it back then lol. This was another show where the entire cast had great chemistry, especially Moseby's character. I didn't love The Suite Life on Deck as much. Although I was happy Moseby and London were back, I wish they kept Maddie and I hated the other new characters. Debby Ryan has never caught on for me and I'd say much of the general public despite the fact that Disney has given her so many roles. I also hated both of the two fat guys brought onto the show as annoying comic relief since it seemed like most of the jokes were just about their weight. They were not funny and really detracted from the show's quality.

The Suite Life was fun enough and it was enjoyable on it's own merits. I liked London Tipton, due to her hilarious nature (despite that I know that some people hated her due to her dumb nature). I also remembering liking the dad. I didn't hate The Suite Life on Deck, since it had it's perks. I never went gaga for it, but I did enjoy it for what it was. I found the new characters to be passable, though.

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Wizards was my least favorite I guess probably just because towards the middle of the show was the time I was aging out of the Disney Channel days. Selena never really caught my attention the way Miley and Demi did, since I adored both of them (and Ashley Tisdale too).

Wizards of Waverly Place was my least favorite as well. Ironically, it was the highest rated show and it was more acceptable to like it, yet it never surpassed the other DC shows in quality. But it was watchable, nonetheless. I used to like Justin's goofy innocence at the beginning, but he became a duller character as the show progressed. I used to find Harper highly annoying at first, but she became tolerable afterwards. Jerry was a fine day. Selena Gomez was cute and sassy, though.
But if I'm going to scrutinize the appeal of the three prominent DC stars, I find Demi to be the least marketable, due to her having less charisma or "it"-factor than Selena and even Miley. I just found her more bland.

What are your thought about J.O.N.A.S?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:19 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Finally someone else who sees it! Thank you! :P It seems like the general public hates The Jungle Book 2 and while I agree that it may not be brilliant, the congruity of the storyline makes up for it.

The Three Commentears mentioned this in their commentary, that Pocahontas the character is more marketed than her movie itself. Perhaps it's not strange, after all.

That may be the reason for why Prince Edward wasn't given a doll. But speaking of Patrick Dempsey, I found him the opposite of lovable in this movie. I usually like him, but I felt that he was just unappealing in every sense here. What's even worse that he and Amy Adams lacked chemistry, but I've ranted about him before.

True, but Merida is a remarkable inclusion, due to her being a Pixar property and a non-singing Princess (since a stock trait with a Disney Princess is her being able to sing, why having Merida in it?). And her movie got a lot of merchandise when it was released. I know about Rapunzel's popularity in the lineup. And do you believe in the theories of the non-Caucasian Princesses getting less recognition than the white ones?

It's a pity that Disney didn't succeed to make Moana it's own brand, just as they did with Frozen. I know Disney were desperately trying to delineate her from the brand, but they didn't succeed.

Perhaps it due to Pocahontas' appeal. I know there was a set created for The Jungle Book, but it's rumored that it was scrapped due to Tarzan having the same setting.

To be honest, I never understood the Genie jokes as a child. But that's probably due to seeing a non-domestic version, so that's why :P

Yeah, Ungermeyer was a memorable character, though she had her contrived devices. There are some theories about the double parts being a foreshadowing to Hannah Montana's premise, but despite the constant comparisons, both Hannah Montana and Lizzie McGuire are completely different premises, not to mention genres. I find those comparisons of the shows to be shallow, but I guess the comparisons are after all fair, due to Miley Cyrus serving the same mold of Hilary Duff.

Why wouldn't I? Regardless of this movie being over fifteen years old, a spoiler is mandatory, nonetheless.

I found her absence to be noteworthy. She was perhaps not my favorite character, but I still liked her nonetheless and she was a part of the show. Yet I disliked her abscence.

No. I have given up Disney Channel. Mainly because I've outgrown these shows :P. The last Disney Channel show that I truly liked, was Austin & Ally. I'm almost ashamed to admit it, but it was a guilty pleasure of mine, because it's strenghts spoke to me; It had catchy songs and I simply adored Dez (despite that he could be annoying at times). It was quite Hannah Montana-esque, with a popstar-premise.

Otherwise, I did somewhat enjoy I Didn't Do It and Lab Rats occassionally.

OK. For some reason Camp Rock spoke to me more than High School Musical, but I did enjoy the songs from High School Musical, nonetheless. I found the first Camp Rock more enjoyable as a whole. Joe Jonas character was quite douchy and unlikable in the first movie, but became more tolerable in the sequel.
I liked Alyson Stoner's character, though her arc was a little muddled in the first movie. Demi was just ok, but nothing outstanding. I do find it admirable that she was stripped down as being regularly and not having a lot of makeup.

The whole storyline was essentially about passion vs. talent, compliance vs genuineness and a rivalry about saving a camp. It was just too sanitized that it became too politically correct way. Though to be fair, the ending was still satisfying that Camp Star won, yet Camp Rock got it's revival.

To be honest, Hannah Montana was an absolute guilty pleasure of mine when I started to watch the show at it's peak. It was corny, yet it was utterly enjoyable, nonetheless. I liked the songs and I especially loved Jackson, Oliver and occasionally her father. However, after a while I absolutely dreaded Miley Stewart, because she became a ruthless, selfish brat with essentially the same arc over and over again. I also disliked Rico, but the rest of the show made up for him. I also disliked the third season and the exclusion of Oliver in the fourth season. Yet the final conclusion was not as tidy and smoothly done as it could've been.

What do you think of the movie? I completely despise it with a burning passion. The film tries desperately to be more serious in tone, yet it messes with the questionable devices from the show (that Miley is never recognized at all when she performs Hoedown Throwdown and that her brown hair is actually shown when she takes her wig on in front of Travis. And rant about how you want about those problems being present in the show, but at least those problems are more congruous in the show). All the comedy is mostly reduced to cartoony slapstick and the love interests (for both her and her widow dad) never came to the still airing show.
And let me not start about the ending and final solution, which is downright cluttered, incongruous and hypocritical.
For all the cynical and corporate intents of the Hannah Montana product, the movie is the definite culmination of it, since it's just made for commercial purposes and would've reasonated more if it was meant to be a finale to the show. I know many people prefer the movie to the show due to it's more mature tone, but I utterly hate it due to my aforementioned reasons. At least it shall have praise for being more mature in tone, but it's aforementioned flaws tears it down.

The Suite Life was fun enough and it was enjoyable on it's own merits. I liked London Tipton, due to her hilarious nature (despite that I know that some people hated her due to her dumb nature). I also remembering liking the dad. I didn't hate The Suite Life on Deck, since it had it's perks. I never went gaga for it, but I did enjoy it for what it was. I found the new characters to be passable, though.

Wizards of Waverly Place was my least favorite as well. Ironically, it was the highest rated show and it was more acceptable to like it, yet it never surpassed the other DC shows in quality. But it was watchable, nonetheless. I used to like Justin's goofy innocence at the beginning, but he became a duller character as the show progressed. I used to find Harper highly annoying at first, but she became tolerable afterwards. Jerry was a fine day. Selena Gomez was cute and sassy, though.
But if I'm going to scrutinize the appeal of the three prominent DC stars, I find Demi to be the least marketable, due to her having less charisma or "it"-factor than Selena and even Miley. I just found her more bland.

What are your thought about J.O.N.A.S?

I'm glad to have validated you on The Jungle Book 2 having a more coherent narrative than its predecessor. The first film is really episodic, although that's not too far off from the book.

That's an interesting remark that Pocahontas is more marketed as a character than with her movie. I can definitely see that since I see her represented in group pics a lot on merchandise, even though her film is usually the least represented out of all those shown. I think the character herself is just very iconic so regardless of how the public feels about her, she is recognizable. I read on reddit once from a Disney cast member that when Pocahontas is in the parks, pretty much everybody recognizes her, young and old. However, Mulan gets a lot more confusion in the parks. While children and the young crowd know who she is, a lot of people, especially elderly people, think she's a random geisha or something walking around. So clearly Pocahontas cemented herself in the public consciousness in a way Mulan didn't.

I'm pretty neutral on Robert in Enchanted, partly because I don't have a love of Patrick Dempsey like the rest of the world seems to have.

Yeah, Merida is an interesting case, and even though she is arguably the most polarizing character in the franchise (traditional DP fans won't like her, and people who do like Merida probably aren't into the DP franchise) I still see her on merchandise. Even at the Disney Parks, I saw lots of little girls dressed up as her still.

I think the issue of the non-Caucasian princesses isn't as race-related as it is story related (which happens to be related to their race). Pocahontas and Mulan are not traditional DP films and in fact, lots of people wouldn't even consider them princesses. Pocahontas still fits in because it has a beautiful heroine, an emphasis on music, and an epic love story, but Mulan is first and foremost a war story. The romance seems pushed in, to the point that there isn't even a kiss, and the emotional emphasis is on her relationship with her father. On top of that, she's dressed as a man for most of the movie so she's not very marketable, while Pocahontas has a dress that doesn't lend itself to sparkles and jewels. Most kids who like the DP movies won't be as enchanted with these "war movies" and it doesn't help that neither film really has "magic" the way it is represented in the other DP films.

Tiana is a different issue, because while TPATF is closer to the old DP films compared to Pocahontas and Mulan, it still sticks out because it's set in the present-day. That makes it lack a sort of magical touch, not just from the more modern setting, but also the fact that unlike the other classic DP films, this film isn't set in a magical kingdom, but a real life place that people can go and visit. Her character is the least popular alongside Pocahontas, probably because these two are the most mature and thus feel more like full-fledged adults. It's worse in Tiana's case, because she feels so modern so she doesn't really feel like a classical princess. She's more comparable to a character like Nani, who is struggling to make ends meet. Most kids aren't really interested in watching films on adults with money issues. There's a reason Lilo & Stitch features the titular characters as the main characters with Nani as the supporting character, but TPATF doesn't do that with Tiana. Her being a frog for most of the film probably also lessens her appeal. None of the film's songs are really as iconic as anything from Pocahontas or Mulan and I think it's the least grossing film out of the entire DP franchise.

I think Jasmine is the best outlier of the non-white princesses because her film does fit in with the other classic DP films. It's a fairy tale, with magic, romance, iconic songs, pretty outfits, etc. That's why, Jasmine is still a pretty popular and iconic character, despite being non-white and also a supporting character to boot. I think it's a huge testament to her popularity, that compared to her fellow princesses, who are all lead heroines, she is still so well regarded. The only time there was a dearth of Jasmine merchandise was when Tiana became a DP. Disney seemed to only want to recognize one ethnic DP so Jasmine was phased out for Tiana's sake. However, around the time of the redesigns, that's when I noticed that Jasmine became consistently represented in the merchandise again while Tiana took a backseat. I think Disney realized that Tiana doesn't have as much appeal, meanwhile Aladdin was receiving a resurgence of popularity from the nostalgia of the 90s and Robin Williams' death. It also helps that in Japan, probably the country that loves Disney more than even the U.S. does, Jasmine is one of the seven official Disney Princesses, not Tiana. Interestingly enough, Jasmine counts as Caucasian even though she's not white so I do find it perhaps a bit revealing that all the other "ethnic" princesses who are not Caucasian (Pocahontas, Mulan, and Tiana) are not as popular.

I'm not surprised that Moana failed to become its own brand. The film did well but not on Frozen or Zootopia levels and I remember reading that the merchandise was selling pretty poorly. Frozen was a very special case and it was silly for Disney to assume that any other film that could follow could became a box-office and merchandise juggernaut. Moana is a character who, whether we like it or not, is better remembered through the DP franchise. She's not unpopular, which is why she isn't completely forgotten, but she's not popular enough to sustain her own brand.

I didn't know there was a world created for The Jungle Book in Kingdom Hearts. Since Tarzan can't be used anymore, they ought to go ahead with The Jungle Book imo.

Do the Genie jokes translate over well in your country or are they completely different from the English version?

Maybe the double life as a pop star element in the Lizzie McGuire movie is why I loved Hannah Montana so much. Or probably more likely, maybe my love for Hannah Montana is why I loved the Lizzie McGuire movie so much because Lizzie was essentially living Hannah Montana for a few days. Funny how Lizzie was a blonde normally, while the pop star version of her was brunette, yet Hannah was a brunette who wore a blonde wig.

I feel like most people on these forums would either have seen the ending for The Lizzie McGuire movie or they would not care enough for the film to be bothered being spoiled. I guess it's better to err on the side of caution by using a spoilertag though.

Austin & Ally was the last Disney Channel show I liked as well, before Andi Mack. I never really watched all of it, but it's the only show I could bear watching if it was on. I definitely got Hannah Montana vibes from it, but in general, the main characters were likable and funny and the humor wasn't gross. I've seen a little of I Didn't Do It but I didn't like it very much. It wasn't the worst that the Disney Channel has had to offer, but I didn't find it memorable. I think it got cancelled rather early on. I don't watch Disney XD shows so never seen Lab Rats.

Good points about the themes in Camp Rock 2. I never looked at it that way before. I liked the ending as well since it wasn't unrealistic but still was satisfying to the viewer.

I stopped watching Hannah Montana by the fourth season and even in the third season, I had begun to outgrow Disney. I do remember that I didn't like the treatment of Oliver in later seasons. Early on, he was a very close friend of both Miley and Lily, but I felt by the end, that he was just used as a punching bad and otherwise disregarded by the two. I don't remember finding Miley that likable either.

I actually sorta liked the Hannah Montana movie but I don't think it fits well with the continuity of the show. It feels like a very separate product first of all because of the tone, but in general, there's no way to reconcile it with the show. Are the events of the movie even mentioned in the show? The ending really is completely unrealistic especially since this was edging towards the age of smartphones and social media. I honestly barely remember anything else about the film, including the shoe-horned in love interests, Miley's maternal family, or the comedy.

I never really saw much of J.O.N.A.S. Like I said sometime before, I'm not a fan of the Jonas Brothers so there was no appeal for me to watch. I saw little snippets of the show, but I found them unmemorable and unappealing. No wonder the show had to be so drastically revamped and even then it failed to build a following. I was glad the show was cancelled.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:32 pm 
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I'm glad to have validated you on The Jungle Book 2 having a more coherent narrative than its predecessor. The first film is really episodic, although that's not too far off from the book.

You're welcome ;)

Quote:
That's an interesting remark that Pocahontas is more marketed as a character than with her movie. I can definitely see that since I see her represented in group pics a lot on merchandise, even though her film is usually the least represented out of all those shown. I think the character herself is just very iconic so regardless of how the public feels about her, she is recognizable. I read on reddit once from a Disney cast member that when Pocahontas is in the parks, pretty much everybody recognizes her, young and old. However, Mulan gets a lot more confusion in the parks. While children and the young crowd know who she is, a lot of people, especially elderly people, think she's a random geisha or something walking around. So clearly Pocahontas cemented herself in the public consciousness in a way Mulan didn't.

I think the reason behind Pocahontas' recognition is fairly simple, but also due to a shallow reason; She was the first non-Caucasian Disney lead (yes, Jasmine was technically the first, but she was still not the main lead) and her movie was a big hit, regardless of it's reputation. And those are the reasons for why she's recognized.
And I've mentioned this before on this board (but I don't know if we've ever talked about it), but I've noticed that every following non-Caucasian Princess ever since has been superficially compared to Pocahontas, as she set the mold for the Princess (though in this Revival era, Moana is more relevant to be compared, due to her actually being a Chieftess and having a similar mission). But Pocahontas has become so iconic that even she's referred to in non-Disney work.

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I'm pretty neutral on Robert in Enchanted, partly because I don't have a love of Patrick Dempsey like the rest of the world seems to have.

Well, it's not as he's loved by every single one. I do like him, though, but I guess that his popularity stems from his sex appeal and looks and not by his talent.

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Yeah, Merida is an interesting case, and even though she is arguably the most polarizing character in the franchise (traditional DP fans won't like her, and people who do like Merida probably aren't into the DP franchise) I still see her on merchandise. Even at the Disney Parks, I saw lots of little girls dressed up as her still.

True, but I still find Merida to be quite annoying. I could tolerate her at first, but later viewings has made me less patient with herg. But she has her fanbase due to her rebellious nature, which is a reason for even a friend of mine to like her.

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I think the issue of the non-Caucasian princesses isn't as race-related as it is story related (which happens to be related to their race). Pocahontas and Mulan are not traditional DP films and in fact, lots of people wouldn't even consider them princesses. Pocahontas still fits in because it has a beautiful heroine, an emphasis on music, and an epic love story, but Mulan is first and foremost a war story. The romance seems pushed in, to the point that there isn't even a kiss, and the emotional emphasis is on her relationship with her father. On top of that, she's dressed as a man for most of the movie so she's not very marketable, while Pocahontas has a dress that doesn't lend itself to sparkles and jewels. Most kids who like the DP movies won't be as enchanted with these "war movies" and it doesn't help that neither film really has "magic" the way it is represented in the other DP films.

Good point. When Mulan was released, I used to superfically compare it to Pocahontas, due to both being about titular, non-Caucasian female leads (and being a three year gap between those movies, it was somewhat a synergy). But regardless of that staple alone, both movies are essentially about war (though of course Pocahontas dilutes the actual fight at the very end) and about two races clashing. I used to point these similarities to several people, but they used to usually dismiss it.
Even a friend of mine who I used to discuss Disney with dismissed my analysis, but technically my theory is true. However, Mulan and Pocahontas are essentially opposites when it comes to depict war, since Pocahontas has the peace and love-policy that Mulan doesn't have :P (technically, Hunchback also has a similar issue about a conflict between two races, but it's not really the main plot and the invasion of the gypsies is not necessarily an invasion of a war). Both Mulan and Pocahontas has a handsome captain as the love interest and a massive villian who's not regarded as belonging in the most evil pantheon. But both films have their share of magic (remember the Ancestors, Mushu and Grandmother Willow), though it's more subtle than in the other DP films.

I also found it remarkable that Mulan and Shang never even kissed in the first movie, which made them a first. But I've heard theories that it was due to them being Chinese.

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Tiana is a different issue, because while TPATF is closer to the old DP films compared to Pocahontas and Mulan, it still sticks out because it's set in the present-day. That makes it lack a sort of magical touch, not just from the more modern setting, but also the fact that unlike the other classic DP films, this film isn't set in a magical kingdom, but a real life place that people can go and visit. Her character is the least popular alongside Pocahontas, probably because these two are the most mature and thus feel more like full-fledged adults. It's worse in Tiana's case, because she feels so modern so she doesn't really feel like a classical princess. She's more comparable to a character like Nani, who is struggling to make ends meet. Most kids aren't really interested in watching films on adults with money issues. There's a reason Lilo & Stitch features the titular characters as the main characters with Nani as the supporting character, but TPATF doesn't do that with Tiana. Her being a frog for most of the film probably also lessens her appeal. None of the film's songs are really as iconic as anything from Pocahontas or Mulan and I think it's the least grossing film out of the entire DP franchise.

True. I remember reading an interview on Disney's D23 Magazine that if there were ever going to be an fairy tale set in the US, it should be New Orleans. But it still was a contrived notion to have an African-American heroine to become a Princess, due to it's realistic impossibility (I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but Tiana's royal inclusion felt shoehorned in just to meet the complains of having an African-American Princess). I used to think that Tiana was more popular, since certain articles cited that she sold well.

Interesting comparison to Nani, yet I feel that Tiana (for all her faults) is a more fleshed out character than Nani. Perhaps Tiana's personality may not be unique, but she surely has it more than Nani, who just felt restricted and diluted due to her situation. Even in the series she's a fairly bland character.

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I think Jasmine is the best outlier of the non-white princesses because her film does fit in with the other classic DP films. It's a fairy tale, with magic, romance, iconic songs, pretty outfits, etc. That's why, Jasmine is still a pretty popular and iconic character, despite being non-white and also a supporting character to boot. I think it's a huge testament to her popularity, that compared to her fellow princesses, who are all lead heroines, she is still so well regarded. The only time there was a dearth of Jasmine merchandise was when Tiana became a DP. Disney seemed to only want to recognize one ethnic DP so Jasmine was phased out for Tiana's sake. However, around the time of the redesigns, that's when I noticed that Jasmine became consistently represented in the merchandise again while Tiana took a backseat. I think Disney realized that Tiana doesn't have as much appeal, meanwhile Aladdin was receiving a resurgence of popularity from the nostalgia of the 90s and Robin Williams' death. It also helps that in Japan, probably the country that loves Disney more than even the U.S. does, Jasmine is one of the seven official Disney Princesses, not Tiana. Interestingly enough, Jasmine counts as Caucasian even though she's not white so I do find it perhaps a bit revealing that all the other "ethnic" princesses who are not Caucasian (Pocahontas, Mulan, and Tiana) are not as popular.

True. As you said, despite Jasmine being the lead, it's a testament to popularity in the franchise. But personally think Jasmine is less fleshed out than her predecessors. I think she serves as a weaker character than both Ariel and Belle and therefore having less of a personality (despite that I love her voice). I know that Jasmine was going to be a stronger character, but was reduced due to her overshadowing Aladdin, which is somewhat a pity. But I know that Jasmine is popular, nonetheless. I think she was the number one of one of these lists on this site. Yet regardless of her placement in the DP franchise, she's the most featured of the non-Caucasian Princesses, regardless of the ongoing rants of Disney being racist :P

Do Japan truly love Disney more than the US?

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I'm not surprised that Moana failed to become its own brand. The film did well but not on Frozen or Zootopia levels and I remember reading that the merchandise was selling pretty poorly. Frozen was a very special case and it was silly for Disney to assume that any other film that could follow could became a box-office and merchandise juggernaut. Moana is a character who, whether we like it or not, is better remembered through the DP franchise. She's not unpopular, which is why she isn't completely forgotten, but she's not popular enough to sustain her own brand.

True. That's why she's most likely to go with the franchise, regardless of the desperate attempts to promote her as an anti-Princess :P

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I didn't know there was a world created for The Jungle Book in Kingdom Hearts. Since Tarzan can't be used anymore, they ought to go ahead with The Jungle Book imo.

Agreed.

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Do the Genie jokes translate over well in your country or are they completely different from the English version?

Somewhat, but not as much as they've could've been.

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Maybe the double life as a pop star element in the Lizzie McGuire movie is why I loved Hannah Montana so much. Or probably more likely, maybe my love for Hannah Montana is why I loved the Lizzie McGuire movie so much because Lizzie was essentially living Hannah Montana for a few days. Funny how Lizzie was a blonde normally, while the pop star version of her was brunette, yet Hannah was a brunette who wore a blonde wig.

True. But regardless of the shows, I liked Hilary Duff more than Miley Cyrus, because I found Hilary to be more likable and prettier. Yet Miley certainly has a personality of her own. But speaking of the movies, I did like What Dreams Are Made Of. Hilary Duff had some pretty good songs in her previous decade.

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I feel like most people on these forums would either have seen the ending for The Lizzie McGuire movie or they would not care enough for the film to be bothered being spoiled. I guess it's better to err on the side of caution by using a spoilertag though.

True, but a spoiler is warranted, nonetheless ;)

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Austin & Ally was the last Disney Channel show I liked as well, before Andi Mack. I never really watched all of it, but it's the only show I could bear watching if it was on. I definitely got Hannah Montana vibes from it, but in general, the main characters were likable and funny and the humor wasn't gross. I've seen a little of I Didn't Do It but I didn't like it very much. It wasn't the worst that the Disney Channel has had to offer, but I didn't find it memorable. I think it got cancelled rather early on. I don't watch Disney XD shows so never seen Lab Rats.

Austin & Ally was good fun, despite that it suffered from the same problems that most DC sitcoms; Being silly and juvenile. Ross Lynch's acting was pretty bad, though and so was Calum Worthy's at the beginning, but he improved.

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Good points about the themes in Camp Rock 2. I never looked at it that way before. I liked the ending as well since it wasn't unrealistic but still was satisfying to the viewer.

Thanks :D

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I stopped watching Hannah Montana by the fourth season and even in the third season, I had begun to outgrow Disney. I do remember that I didn't like the treatment of Oliver in later seasons. Early on, he was a very close friend of both Miley and Lily, but I felt by the end, that he was just used as a punching bad and otherwise disregarded by the two. I don't remember finding Miley that likable either.

Fair enough. Oliver was also a punching bag to Jackson. But Oliver became more unlikable in the third season. He became more full of himself. I know many people either hates or loves Miley Stewart, the character, mainly due to Miley's personality.

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I actually sorta liked the Hannah Montana movie but I don't think it fits well with the continuity of the show. It feels like a very separate product first of all because of the tone, but in general, there's no way to reconcile it with the show. Are the events of the movie even mentioned in the show? The ending really is completely unrealistic especially since this was edging towards the age of smartphones and social media. I honestly barely remember anything else about the film, including the shoe-horned in love interests, Miley's maternal family, or the comedy.

Perhaps it's better that you don't remember anything from it :P Just kidding. I thought you liked the movie more, due to it's more mature tone and how you generally prefer drama's. The events of the movie are mentioned in the show, but barely. Objectively, the movie wasn't bad (despite the dumb slapstick comedy), but it was dramatically uneven and all of it's faults made me hate the movie more, especially due to it being shoehorned in to just cash on the product (which the ending was certainly evident of). And subjectively, I hated most of the songs from that movie, with the exception of Hoedown Throwdown, that was at least fun.

But I'm glad that the Hannah phase has faded, because it's hard to believe that we live in a world where Hannah Montana is history, when it doesn't feel long ago (to me, at least, since I've reached that age where a decade feels like yesterday). But another reason for being happy about it, it was because the Internet was mostly filled with either hostile and prissy Hannah/Miley fans and/or obnoxious and hostile trolls. It was hard and rare to objectively discuss Hannah Montana or Miley Cyrus with anyone back then.

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I never really saw much of J.O.N.A.S. Like I said sometime before, I'm not a fan of the Jonas Brothers so there was no appeal for me to watch. I saw little snippets of the show, but I found them unmemorable and unappealing. No wonder the show had to be so drastically revamped and even then it failed to build a following. I was glad the show was cancelled.

To be honest, I liked J.O.N.A.S. and thought it was a breath of fresh air, due to it being a little different from it peers, of not having a laughing track. Yet it was still structured in the same, juvenile way as most DC shows. I understand why people found it bad, but it was as bad as it was good. It was frisky, fun and enjoyable. My only complain was that Macy could be quite grating in the first season. As for J.O.N.A.S. LA, I didn't thought that the revamp was necessary, but frankly made the show just meh and nothing else. But at least Joe was more tolerable in the second season.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:01 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I think the reason behind Pocahontas' recognition is fairly simple, but also due to a shallow reason; She was the first non-Caucasian Disney lead (yes, Jasmine was technically the first, but she was still not the main lead) and her movie was a big hit, regardless of it's reputation. And those are the reasons for why she's recognized.
And I've mentioned this before on this board (but I don't know if we've ever talked about it), but I've noticed that every following non-Caucasian Princess ever since has been superficially compared to Pocahontas, as she set the mold for the Princess (though in this Revival era, Moana is more relevant to be compared, due to her actually being a Chieftess and having a similar mission). But Pocahontas has become so iconic that even she's referred to in non-Disney work.

True, but I still find Merida to be quite annoying. I could tolerate her at first, but later viewings has made me less patient with herg. But she has her fanbase due to her rebellious nature, which is a reason for even a friend of mine to like her.

Good point. When Mulan was released, I used to superfically compare it to Pocahontas, due to both being about titular, non-Caucasian female leads (and being a three year gap between those movies, it was somewhat a synergy). But regardless of that staple alone, both movies are essentially about war (though of course Pocahontas dilutes the actual fight at the very end) and about two races clashing. I used to point these similarities to several people, but they used to usually dismiss it.
Even a friend of mine who I used to discuss Disney with dismissed my analysis, but technically my theory is true. However, Mulan and Pocahontas are essentially opposites when it comes to depict war, since Pocahontas has the peace and love-policy that Mulan doesn't have :P (technically, Hunchback also has a similar issue about a conflict between two races, but it's not really the main plot and the invasion of the gypsies is not necessarily an invasion of a war). Both Mulan and Pocahontas has a handsome captain as the love interest and a massive villian who's not regarded as belonging in the most evil pantheon. But both films have their share of magic (remember the Ancestors, Mushu and Grandmother Willow), though it's more subtle than in the other DP films.

I also found it remarkable that Mulan and Shang never even kissed in the first movie, which made them a first. But I've heard theories that it was due to them being Chinese.

True. I remember reading an interview on Disney's D23 Magazine that if there were ever going to be an fairy tale set in the US, it should be New Orleans. But it still was a contrived notion to have an African-American heroine to become a Princess, due to it's realistic impossibility (I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but Tiana's royal inclusion felt shoehorned in just to meet the complains of having an African-American Princess). I used to think that Tiana was more popular, since certain articles cited that she sold well.

Interesting comparison to Nani, yet I feel that Tiana (for all her faults) is a more fleshed out character than Nani. Perhaps Tiana's personality may not be unique, but she surely has it more than Nani, who just felt restricted and diluted due to her situation. Even in the series she's a fairly bland character.

True. As you said, despite Jasmine being the lead, it's a testament to popularity in the franchise. But personally think Jasmine is less fleshed out than her predecessors. I think she serves as a weaker character than both Ariel and Belle and therefore having less of a personality (despite that I love her voice). I know that Jasmine was going to be a stronger character, but was reduced due to her overshadowing Aladdin, which is somewhat a pity. But I know that Jasmine is popular, nonetheless. I think she was the number one of one of these lists on this site. Yet regardless of her placement in the DP franchise, she's the most featured of the non-Caucasian Princesses, regardless of the ongoing rants of Disney being racist :P

Do Japan truly love Disney more than the US?

Somewhat, but not as much as they've could've been.

True. But regardless of the shows, I liked Hilary Duff more than Miley Cyrus, because I found Hilary to be more likable and prettier. Yet Miley certainly has a personality of her own. But speaking of the movies, I did like What Dreams Are Made Of. Hilary Duff had some pretty good songs in her previous decade.

Austin & Ally was good fun, despite that it suffered from the same problems that most DC sitcoms; Being silly and juvenile. Ross Lynch's acting was pretty bad, though and so was Calum Worthy's at the beginning, but he improved.

Fair enough. Oliver was also a punching bag to Jackson. But Oliver became more unlikable in the third season. He became more full of himself. I know many people either hates or loves Miley Stewart, the character, mainly due to Miley's personality.

Perhaps it's better that you don't remember anything from it :P Just kidding. I thought you liked the movie more, due to it's more mature tone and how you generally prefer drama's. The events of the movie are mentioned in the show, but barely. Objectively, the movie wasn't bad (despite the dumb slapstick comedy), but it was dramatically uneven and all of it's faults made me hate the movie more, especially due to it being shoehorned in to just cash on the product (which the ending was certainly evident of). And subjectively, I hated most of the songs from that movie, with the exception of Hoedown Throwdown, that was at least fun.

But I'm glad that the Hannah phase has faded, because it's hard to believe that we live in a world where Hannah Montana is history, when it doesn't feel long ago (to me, at least, since I've reached that age where a decade feels like yesterday). But another reason for being happy about it, it was because the Internet was mostly filled with either hostile and prissy Hannah/Miley fans and/or obnoxious and hostile trolls. It was hard and rare to objectively discuss Hannah Montana or Miley Cyrus with anyone back then.

To be honest, I liked J.O.N.A.S. and thought it was a breath of fresh air, due to it being a little different from it peers, of not having a laughing track. Yet it was still structured in the same, juvenile way as most DC shows. I understand why people found it bad, but it was as bad as it was good. It was frisky, fun and enjoyable. My only complain was that Macy could be quite grating in the first season. As for J.O.N.A.S. LA, I didn't thought that the revamp was necessary, but frankly made the show just meh and nothing else. But at least Joe was more tolerable in the second season.

I think Pocahontas also is so iconic because she's such an important historical figure. Pretty much every American child grows up knowing about her and she's frankly the most well-known Native American. There's a reason that Trump uses Pocahontas' name whenever he wants to refer to Native Americans, likely because she's the only one he knows of. I'm not sure how well known she is in the rest of the world, but I imagine that she's likely the most well known Native American in English history as well, considering her ties with them. This puts her on a par with iconic fairy tale characters like Cinderella, Snow White, the Beast, Aladdin, etc. Mulan, meanwhile, is a folklore hero that is pretty much universally known in China, but if it hadn't been for the Disney film, pretty much no other country would know her. And unlike Pocahontas, who still has connections to other countries besides America, Mulan is relatively tied to China, so there's no incentive for other countries and cultures to really know her. Perhaps another significant factor is that Japan is such a major Disney consumer and you won't find anything Mulan or otherwise Chinese-related there. Meanwhile Pocahontas has an albeit small following there. Even Hunchback, or at least Esmeralda and Clopin, have enough popularity to warrant inclusions in the Tokyo parks, unlike the rest of the world, including their home country of France.

I haven't seen Brave in a few years now so I wonder whether she would have grown on me, or if I would like her less. I never really hated her, but I was generally underwhelmed by her film so I haven't had many reasons to revisit her story.

I definitely agree with your parallels between Mulan and Pocahontas and I'm surprised that other people haven't been more receptive to that. You make a valid point that they have two very opposite stances on war. I've also definitely seen the Hunchback-Pocahontas parallels. I know we discussed this a while back, but stuff like the Menken-Schwartz soundtrack, the older, hunky, blonde captain paired with an ethnic dark-haired beauty, the xenophobia of the villain which almost incites a race war, the criticized comical sidekicks, and the general more realistic and mature tones of the films and subject matter. Another thing I just now noted is that compared to the rest of the Renaissance films, they are the most rooted in history as well, probably because the filmmakers really waned to make the films seem realistic. Pocahontas is given an exact date of 1607, like the actual historical event, whereas Hunchback is set in 1482, like the novel was. The previous Disney films were set in specific eras, but you could never really narrow them down to a specific year. I think this is even true of the Walt-era films, minus the contemporary films like 101 Dalmatians, The Rescuers, and maybe Dumbo.

I never realized that Mulan and Shang were unable to kiss because of their Chinese culture. Funny, since Chinese audiences criticized the film and character for being too westernized in the first place. Good thing they haven't seen Mulan II. She really plays the role of the prototypical Disney Princess, intent on following her heart and dreams there, unlike in the original film, where she's still set on abiding to tradition and culture.

I know that the New Orleans setting was chosen because Lasseter always wanted to do a film set there. I think it's his favorite city or one of his favorite cities. Basically TPATF was greenlighted because of the setting and because Disney needed a black princess and that could work in this setting, since Lasseter was unsure about an actual African princess like Aida working in animation. I imagine the interview you mentioned about a U.S. fairy tale having to be set in New Orleans probably came from him, so I'd promptly ignore it lol.

Much like you, I'm not a fan of Tiana being a princess. It felt like Disney so desperately wanted to make sure that she would be well received by the public so they had to make her African American rather than African so that actual African American viewers would be able to connect to her. However, that's awfully contrived and I'm just glad that with Sade (or whatever her new name is), we'll be getting a proper African princess.

Tiana is the main character of her film, unlike Nani, so it makes sense that you would consider her more developed and fleshed out. I don't remember Nani having a big role in the TV series as you said either.

When Aladdin came out, Jasmine did get criticism for seeming regressive coming on the heels of Belle. People complained that she felt more like Ariel, which wouldn't have been bad if Belle hadn't come in between the two. A lot of the goodwill that Belle had built up when it came to Disney's portrayal of women felt unearned after Jasmine reverting back to a damsel in distress. I know that originally she was never supposed to cry in the film and she was meant to save herself from the hourglass rather than require Aladdin's help. Personally, I'm happy with what we got, but I can see the live-action film taking cues from these original plans for Jasmine.

Japan is very big on franchises like Disney, Harry Potter, etc. and even though Japan has their own theme parks for these properties, you'll still find that a large percentage of people visiting the American parks (whether Disney or Universal) tend to be Japanese. I read an article once that when Inside Out come out, it was in fashion for Japanese teens to carry plush Bing Bongs around and get him his own seat at restaurants. I also used to play a Disney app game on my phone and there was a leaderboard which showed which countries played the game the most. The U.S. was #2 and although I can't remember for sure, I think Japan was #1. It was either Japan or China and then whichever wasn't #1 was #3. I think England came after as #4 and #5 was either Germany or Brazil.

How do song lyrics translate in your country? Or are they not translated at all since I've heard that some countries keep the songs in English?

I love the song What Dreams Are Made Of. I really hope the Lizzie McGuire revival references the movie as well as the show. I imagine they will since it ended with Lizzie and Gordo together, not to mention the development for Kate and Ethan's characters. Since you're a big Lizzie fan, how did you feel about Miranda not being in the movie?

I actually liked Ross Lynch's character lol. Maybe his acting wasn't the best, but I attributed that to his character more. Also, I think the actor has gotten some pretty high-profile gigs recently so his acting must have improved. Then again, Zendaya has been in huge projects and I know a lot of her haters who question how she's achieved so much with what they consider to be very little talent.

Yeah, I remember now that towards the end of Hannah Montana, they started pairing off Oliver and Jackson more together. I never really liked that since it was obvious that they were only doing so to keep the girls in the main story with the guys getting the subplot of the episode. Nevermind that Oliver was never friends with Jackson. Miley became really insufferable towards the end, which I guess makes sense considering what the real Miley Cyrus was transitioning to.

Yeah, my preference for drama is probably why I don't have any bad feelings towards the Hannah Montana movie. I'm guessing that all the slapstick comedy was reserved for Miley's family, mainly her brother and father, because I don't remember the main central plot featuring Miley and her "boyfriend" having a lot of unnecessary comedy. I don't really remember any of the songs in the film either except Hoedown Throwdown which was a big hit. I remember it used to play in my school dances and was generally popular. I remember Taylor Swift had a song too since this was during the beginning of her career, but I never cared for Taylor back then so her song didn't do anything for me. I think The Climb was the endcredits song or something. If I'm not wrong, I remember that was a hit song back then.

I think I was too young to really ever look for the Hannah Montana fandom online so I guess I was spared from negativity in that respect. Similarly enough, I didn't have to deal with the toxicity of the Harry Potter and Star Wars prequel fandoms back then, although plenty of it still exists nowadays. I'm not sure what the Disney fandom was like a decade ago, but I now that on Tumblr and similar sites, there's plenty of hostility. Especially with the Frozen fandom lol.

Was Macy the blonde girl from J.O.N.A.S.? If so, I only remember her from the Disney Channel Original Movie "Minute Men." I know that fans used to get her confused with the other two Disney blondes at the time: Meaghan Martin from Camp Rock and Tiffany Thornton from Sonny With a Chance. I can see why people would get the three mixed up, but I didn't really think any of them looked alike besides the shade of their hair. I suppose the fact that both Meaghan and Tiffany played antagonistic roles to Demi didn't help the confusion.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:40 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I think Pocahontas also is so iconic because she's such an important historical figure. Pretty much every American child grows up knowing about her and she's frankly the most well-known Native American. There's a reason that Trump uses Pocahontas' name whenever he wants to refer to Native Americans, likely because she's the only one he knows of. I'm not sure how well known she is in the rest of the world, but I imagine that she's likely the most well known Native American in English history as well, considering her ties with them. This puts her on a par with iconic fairy tale characters like Cinderella, Snow White, the Beast, Aladdin, etc.

So Trump refers to Native Americans as Pocahontas? I didn't know.

You're right about her position, but The Three Commentears has a different take. In their commentary for the film, they mention that Disney's version was their introduction to Pocahontas (at least for the two of them). Which was actually the case for me, however. I remember seeing a teaser for the movie in January 1995 (on The Aristocats VHS), without knowing anything about her ethnicity. When I learned that she was a Native American, my thought was that she didn't look like the stereotype of one (since Native Americans can look like different ethnicities) and due to the progressions of depicting non-White, exotic regions with Aladdin and The Lion King, Pocahontas felt regressive, since Disney had explored the Native American community before in what has now become a predominant White environment (*cough, Peter Pan, cough*).
But to be fair, Pocahontas is about non-Caucasian people after all, so it passes for it. And please don't hate me for my non-politically correct comment, I'm just summarizing what my thoughts were at a child (because I do feel genuniely sorry for the stereotypical portrayals of Native Americans in Hollywood). I can link you that teaser, if you want to; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO9dPoXYWNc

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Mulan, meanwhile, is a folklore hero that is pretty much universally known in China, but if it hadn't been for the Disney film, pretty much no other country would know her. And unlike Pocahontas, who still has connections to other countries besides America, Mulan is relatively tied to China, so there's no incentive for other countries and cultures to really know her. Perhaps another significant factor is that Japan is such a major Disney consumer and you won't find anything Mulan or otherwise Chinese-related there. Meanwhile Pocahontas has an albeit small following there. Even Hunchback, or at least Esmeralda and Clopin, have enough popularity to warrant inclusions in the Tokyo parks, unlike the rest of the world, including their home country of France.

Really? I didn't know about the latter. I guess that (stereotypically) Mulan would have a representation that was suitable (no pun intended), due to being at her own region. But you summarize what has been something that I've analyzed with Mulan lately, that her movie is essentially an adaptation about a story that is not known for a non-Universal audience.

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I haven't seen Brave in a few years now so I wonder whether she would have grown on me, or if I would like her less. I never really hated her, but I was generally underwhelmed by her film so I haven't had many reasons to revisit her story.

I haven't seen Brave in years either, but regardless of it's problems, I did like it, overall. So I guess it's somewhat of a guilty pleasure :P

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I definitely agree with your parallels between Mulan and Pocahontas and I'm surprised that other people haven't been more receptive to that. You make a valid point that they have two very opposite stances on war.

Thanks :D. But regardless of my previous rants, people do still compare the characters of Pocahontas and Mulan, mostly stereotypically, due to them being non-Caucasian leads. And that's what several critics have rambled about, too.

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I've also definitely seen the Hunchback-Pocahontas parallels. I know we discussed this a while back, but stuff like the Menken-Schwartz soundtrack, the older, hunky, blonde captain paired with an ethnic dark-haired beauty, the xenophobia of the villain which almost incites a race war, the criticized comical sidekicks, and the general more realistic and mature tones of the films and subject matter.

True, but we have discussed that before. Yet Pocahontas got criticized for the racial stereotypes, more than Hunchback. Besides, Pocahontas has a fair amount of even share of characters that are either Natives or English, whereas in Hunchback most of the characters are white Parisians (with the exception of Esmeralda and Clopin, of course). In fact, Hunchback was too politically correct to portray the gypsies as a persecuted people.

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Another thing I just now noted is that compared to the rest of the Renaissance films, they are the most rooted in history as well, probably because the filmmakers really waned to make the films seem realistic. Pocahontas is given an exact date of 1607, like the actual historical event, whereas Hunchback is set in 1482, like the novel was. The previous Disney films were set in specific eras, but you could never really narrow them down to a specific year. I think this is even true of the Walt-era films, minus the contemporary films like 101 Dalmatians, The Rescuers, and maybe Dumbo.

Not quite. Both The Aristocats and The Great Mouse Detective were given specific dates of the years their stories takes places on. The funny thing is that both were released on VHS for the first time in Norway in 1995, so Pocahontas being released theatrically that year followed their synergy :P. Later on Atlantis would duplicate to cite the year it takes place in. Yet Hunchback's year is never confirmed in the movie.

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I never realized that Mulan and Shang were unable to kiss because of their Chinese culture. Funny, since Chinese audiences criticized the film and character for being too westernized in the first place. Good thing they haven't seen Mulan II. She really plays the role of the prototypical Disney Princess, intent on following her heart and dreams there, unlike in the original film, where she's still set on abiding to tradition and culture.

Yeah, I felt Mulan's part in her sequel was prototypical, but still something that suited her, due to her nature was to somewhat defy her traditions and norms in her first movie, no matter how you put it. And yes, I know Chinese audiences criticized the film and character for being too westernized and perhaps she was that to them. But for a non-Asian, I thought there was plenty of Chinese and Asian flavor in the film. Heck, I felt there was more dedication to steep the film in an Asian culture than Disney done for Europeans cultures (though let's not forget that the creators of Moana wanted to steep their film in Polynesian culture, following the mantra of having their culture swallow the American one).

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I know that the New Orleans setting was chosen because Lasseter always wanted to do a film set there. I think it's his favorite city or one of his favorite cities. Basically TPATF was greenlighted because of the setting and because Disney needed a black princess and that could work in this setting, since Lasseter was unsure about an actual African princess like Aida working in animation. I imagine the interview you mentioned about a U.S. fairy tale having to be set in New Orleans probably came from him, so I'd promptly ignore it lol.

I know that New Orleans was chosen because of Lasseter. And it's a pity that Disney never managed to fulfill to make their own animated version of Aida. Had it been released at the prime of hand drawn animation, it would've been an intriguing project.

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Much like you, I'm not a fan of Tiana being a princess. It felt like Disney so desperately wanted to make sure that she would be well received by the public so they had to make her African American rather than African so that actual African American viewers would be able to connect to her. However, that's awfully contrived and I'm just glad that with Sade (or whatever her new name is), we'll be getting a proper African princess.

True. I don't hate her royal title with a burning passion, I just find it contrived. But I still remember that the complaints about Tiana's progression and royal weren't that huge. At least from IMDb users, since I used to follow IMDb more at the time. Of course I know about the rants about her not being black enough, but the complaints about the controversy that Tiana represents haven't been as huge, in my opinion. Anika Noni Rose has even talked about it in one of the interviews she did on The View; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBGGp6vIeM. It's a pity that Sade won't be a hand drawn property.

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Tiana is the main character of her film, unlike Nani, so it makes sense that you would consider her more developed and fleshed out. I don't remember Nani having a big role in the TV series as you said either.

True, but a secondary character can be fleshed out as well.

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When Aladdin came out, Jasmine did get criticism for seeming regressive coming on the heels of Belle. People complained that she felt more like Ariel, which wouldn't have been bad if Belle hadn't come in between the two. A lot of the goodwill that Belle had built up when it came to Disney's portrayal of women felt unearned after Jasmine reverting back to a damsel in distress. I know that originally she was never supposed to cry in the film and she was meant to save herself from the hourglass rather than require Aladdin's help. Personally, I'm happy with what we got, but I can see the live-action film taking cues from these original plans for Jasmine.

Perhaps, but they're obligated to do so, considering that we live in a politically correct, Internet-scrutinizing era. And due to all the havoc Aladdin originally got , it will get more ;)

I know about the complaints about Jasmine's regressive nature, but she was still praised for being independent in her own right. But remember that Ariel was praised of her independence, too.

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Japan is very big on franchises like Disney, Harry Potter, etc. and even though Japan has their own theme parks for these properties, you'll still find that a large percentage of people visiting the American parks (whether Disney or Universal) tend to be Japanese. I read an article once that when Inside Out come out, it was in fashion for Japanese teens to carry plush Bing Bongs around and get him his own seat at restaurants. I also used to play a Disney app game on my phone and there was a leaderboard which showed which countries played the game the most. The U.S. was #2 and although I can't remember for sure, I think Japan was #1. It was either Japan or China and then whichever wasn't #1 was #3. I think England came after as #4 and #5 was either Germany or Brazil.

OK, I didn't know.

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How do song lyrics translate in your country? Or are they not translated at all since I've heard that some countries keep the songs in English?

No, they're translated in Norwegian. In a proper way, though.

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Since you're a big Lizzie fan, how did you feel about Miranda not being in the movie?

Big and big. I do have my nostalgic bias for it, though. And no offense, but I've already replied about Miranda's exclusion; It was a pity, though I didn't utterly despise her exclusion either.

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I actually liked Ross Lynch's character lol. Maybe his acting wasn't the best, but I attributed that to his character more. Also, I think the actor has gotten some pretty high-profile gigs recently so his acting must have improved.

OK, I haven't noticed his recent roles. I didn't hate Austin the character, I just felt that Ross Lynch's acting was bad at times. Though to be fair, he was a skilled and energetic performer.

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Yeah, I remember now that towards the end of Hannah Montana, they started pairing off Oliver and Jackson more together. I never really liked that since it was obvious that they were only doing so to keep the girls in the main story with the guys getting the subplot of the episode. Nevermind that Oliver was never friends with Jackson.

I liked that pairing, due to them being my favorite characters in the show. But I disliked Jackson's overall treatment of Oliver.

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Miley became really insufferable towards the end, which I guess makes sense considering what the real Miley Cyrus was transitioning to.

To be fair, Miley Cyrus was never downright spiteful and mean towards the rest of the world as the character of Miley Steward. She did a couple of scandals, but were overall not a particularly hostile person. Though I remember that she used to rant (more than any other Hollywood celebrity that I've seen) about haters more than once in her prime (and don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting haters, I'm just citing this objectively). Apparently in 2013 she changed her attitude completely and said that haters kept her motivated. And yes, 2013 was the year where she truly gave controversy a new and overt vision.

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Yeah, my preference for drama is probably why I don't have any bad feelings towards the Hannah Montana movie. I'm guessing that all the slapstick comedy was reserved for Miley's family, mainly her brother and father, because I don't remember the main central plot featuring Miley and her "boyfriend" having a lot of unnecessary comedy.

True, but the comedy in that movie was mostly reduced to slapstick and the wisecraks were mild.

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I remember Taylor Swift had a song too since this was during the beginning of her career, but I never cared for Taylor back then so her song didn't do anything for me.

It was around that time where I got acquainted to Taylor Swift. Her song was fine, though and it was back then where her music was mostly country influenced. Back at the time, I used to like Taylor, more than now, though her music is still fine, though.

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I think The Climb was the endcredits song or something. If I'm not wrong, I remember that was a hit song back then.

The Climb was not an end credit song, it was a perfomance in the actual movie. But I personally think it should've been an end credit-song, since it didn't fit the movie and just kept slowing it down (in fact, it would've been more reasonant in a more serious and harrowing plot than something as lite as Hannah Montana). It was a hit song back then, but I've always found the melody to be utterly dreadful. Btw, do you like that song?

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I'm not sure what the Disney fandom was like a decade ago, but I now that on Tumblr and similar sites, there's plenty of hostility. Especially with the Frozen fandom lol.

True, but the Internet was like that a decade ago. I'm glad that I've outgrown the phase of being completely shocked by users hostility and mob mentality. And frankly, the Hannah trolls were my first real exposure to the hostility of IMDb trolls.

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Was Macy the blonde girl from J.O.N.A.S.? If so, I only remember her from the Disney Channel Original Movie "Minute Men." I know that fans used to get her confused with the other two Disney blondes at the time: Meaghan Martin from Camp Rock and Tiffany Thornton from Sonny With a Chance. I can see why people would get the three mixed up, but I didn't really think any of them looked alike besides the shade of their hair. I suppose the fact that both Meaghan and Tiffany played antagonistic roles to Demi didn't help the confusion.

No, Macy was the brunette and was played by Nicole Anderson. The blonde girl was played by Chelsea Staub Kane. She was likable. Lately I saw her in the sitcom Baby Daddy. Tiffany Thorton was a fine actress and managed to play a snooty bitch, regardless of her likable nature. Meaghan Martin was suitable to her role.


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