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Hahaha, I know. Our conversations have streched out in length


I grew up in the midst of the Renaissance, yes. But I also didn't truly enjoy the peak of it, since I wasn't obsessed with those who came before The Lion King. But at least I enjoyed Aladdin when I first saw it and thought it was quite fun.

It's remarkable how you mention the popularity of the Renaissance films, since one argument I've heard against the Disney films from the Dark Age is that they weren't good enough. At least that is pretty evident is how badly films like Atlantis, Brother Bear and Home on the Range were received. But at least one thing that I genuinely appreciated from the Dark Age is that there were some variety and that Disney took some risks. Personally I thought Lilo & Stitch and Brother Bear were the worst from that era, despite that they had their perks. The others were fine, even the much maligned Home on the Range, though I don't count Chicken Little from that era.


True. It's funny how this Revival era has mirrored the Reniassance era, but at least the Revival era didn't have a Pocahontas that caused it's downfall. But remember that the final trailer for Frozen named it "it's biggest event since The Lion King". And several reviewers compared to it as well.


Really? That's strange, since I thought Big Hero 6 had a wider appeal, due to it being a superhero movie without being a musical.


Me neither.


Yeah and what's a pity is that Christophe Beck is returning and will probably reuse the same musical themes the first one had.


Haha, first time I hear that Elsa gets compared to Aurora. Speaking of which, what makes Elsa unique among the Disney Princesses is how she basically becomes a Queen. However, Elsa really comes across as more mature and poised than the regular Disney Princess. But I still think it's a pity that neither her nor Anna won't join the official franchise, when they were after all made for it (let's be honest, because that's true).


Oh, I know all about the depression theories with Elsa. And frankly I can see the paralells, since I was through a serious depression at the time (due to my brother's suicide). But that's what makes it a pity that Elsa's characterization is reduced.


Oh, I remember when those posters were leaked and Disney claimed they were fake . At least they looked better on those posters, though I initially thought that Elsa looked like a character from Tinker Bell's Pixie Hollow . As for Anna vs. Rapunzel, though I never went gaga for Rapunzel, I thought she was better than Anna, who was a little too over the top at times. I feel that Moana is better than both of them, despite that I never went gaga for her either, but she was likable and energetic enough to make herself notable.


At least the characters from Tangled looked better in 2D than in 3D, but mostly thanks to being drawn by Master Glen Keane.


Fair enough. I've heard some theories that Elsa is probably going to have more screentime, due to her popularity.


And many people here thought he was underwhelming.


You should, it's very good.


Agreed. Pixar can make a masterpiece now and both, but overall I felt that Pixar become too overhyped and overrated by both critics and fanboys. It seems as people were praising Pixar's formula and components to be foolproof and flawless (and I know how biased and hostile Pixar fanboys can be). I think it's unfair that Pixar gets praised at the expense of Disney, when both studios should've been perceived as good at their own right.
When Pixar's downfall began to start, people were blaming Disney for it's downfall. I guess the swap may be fair, due to how Disney were the king of animation during many years, but I still find it ridiculous that Pixar is praised. And yes, I've noticed that the mentality has started to fade, but still...


I know, right? It's funny how a few months can make a difference


Perhaps it was promoted due to Condon being gay himself?


At least we can say about BATB is that it's basically a carbon copy of it's animated version, whereas Cinderella and The Jungle Book at least tried to be their own movies, while paying nods to their original. I guess Aladdin may be a carbon copy, but I dislike the casting of Will Smith as the Genie. I thought they've could've getting someone else, who had the sensibility and the manic as Williams.

Otherwise, do you think the live action versions of The Jungle Book and Cinderella were as good as their predecessors?


Agreed. When I first saw Treasure Planet, I found it watchable, but somewhat forgettable. Yet later viewings has made grew to love the film and thinking that it didn't deserve it's dud-reputation. It may not be as frantic and pop culture driven as John Musker and Ron Clements at their very best, but it's a good movie. The animation is wonderful and so is the music.
The characters may be a mixed bag, but overall the Silver and Jim-relationship is the heart of the film and rightfully so, despite that I'm not so fond of Jim as a character, since I found him to be awfully bland (sorry to say). And yes, it's pretty daring (and contemporary) how Disney dared to portray a relationship about the father just leaving, which (unfortunately) happens in the real world.


Really? I thought John Carter was generic and forgettable, though. Not bad, but nothing special and memorable. At least Alice in Wonderland was good and I never understood why many people despised it, despite that I never went gaga for it.


I did like Brave, but overall the film was a mixed bag for me. The music was absolutely amazing and so were the visuals. However, I thought the first half was superior to the second half. The story was overall too slim and incongruous. I didn't mind the fact that Brave was basically a Disney Princess movie (yes, I'll use that term) packed in a Pixar production, because no matter what naysayers says, both studios are allowed to switch and copy each other properties once in a while. But Brave was flawed on it's own right. Both Merida and Ellinor was basically stereotypes that we've seen previously in such Freaky Friday-premises, despite that they were given some depth, but both were unlikable in their own right.

And yeah, it's remarkable how several movies about female empowerment have a tendency to portray mens as buffoons and that's certainly evident in Mulan.


OK. I don't remember her, but that's probably the reason for why Cogsworth begs to turn back into a clock


True, but that doesn't only applies to Pocahontas, but to most Disney in general. How the movies spark interest to learn about their source materials or the group of people they portray. It was said about Hunchback as well.
However, it's notable that Pocahontas got even more flack than Anastasia for it's historical accuracy problems. Maybe because Pocahontas was touching on American history and was labeled as being mediocre by several people, whereas Anastasia got better reviews.

While I liked the risks Disney took with films like Atlantis, Lilo & Stitch, Treasure Planet, etc., most of the time the risks didn't pay off. Stitch was the only hit while Treasure Planet was their biggest financial loss ever, even moreso than The Black Cauldron. And frankly Brother Bear was a flop attempt at trying to recapture the magic of the 90s, and TPATF was only one step above that. Home on the Range was abysmal and Chicken Little sunk to even lower depths.

I don't read too much into the Revival/Renaissance films comparison but it is great that Disney has so far kept up a winning streak and really rebuilt their brand after the 2000s. However, I'm not really sure I like their new image very much even if it's won over the majority of the public. I do remember that the Frozen trailer mentioned The Lion King, but I also remember that most Disney films since The Lion King had something similar, maybe not in a trailer, but usually in a review or something so I didn't take it very seriously when I saw Frozen keep up that trend.

I think for this girl, Big Hero 6 was just another animated film to her so she relegated it to being a mere cartoon. She didn't seem like the type who watched superhero films either so that's probably why.

I didn't realize that the person who scored Frozen will be returning for the sequel. He could probably reuse the same themes and most people wouldn't even realize since there was nothing memorable to remember the first time.

Usually I hear Elsa and Aurora get compared because they're both blondes in blue, but otherwise, yeah they don't get mentioned together very much. Elsa becoming a queen wasn't reallu a big deal for me since most of the princesses would likely become queens after the events of their films. I suppose Elsa becoming a queen at the beginning of her movie rather than the end is more unique. Even if you exclude the Disney Princess franchise, most of Disney's characters get crowned king/queen at the end of their films, whether it's Wart, Kida, or Mia Thermopolis. I don't really have an issue with Elsa and Anna becoming Disney Princesses either considering how much Frozen tries to deconstruct the franchise. Also, even if they aren't officially added, for all intents and purposes, they basically are Disney Princeses. They just won't be on the official website or the Disney Wiki page (which is fan-made anyway) and not included in every group shot which rarely includes all the princesses anyway.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear about your brother. That must have been very hard to deal with and probably still is. I can see why you would understand the depression theories for Elsa from that incident in your life.

Elsa really reminded me of Periwinkle since I think her character had just recently debuted. I actually preferred Anna over Rapunzel. I remember going into Frozen reluctantly because I felt it was just going to be Rapunzel's character all over again, but I much preferred Anna. So that was quite a pleasant surprise. Moana is fine, but she's a bit too generic and a Mary Sue for my taste. I don't hate her but nothing makes me gravitate towards her either.

Yeah, Glen Keane's designs for the Tangled/Rapunzel characters are astounding. As are Jin Kim who did a lot of the scrapped characters from Rapunzel.

I think it's basically confirmed that Elsa will have a bigger part now. She certainly did in the shorts and there's no way Disney doesn't try to capitalize on her now.

I've definitely heard Pixar fanboys blame Disney for Pixar's decline, especially after Brave and Wreck-It Ralph came out. But the case of sequelitis is definitely Pixar's own fault, since Disney had long since scrapped their direct-to-video sequels under Lasseter's regime and Lasseter was the one who was greenlighting all the Pixar sequels. Disney, if anything, seems to have taken a page out of Pixar's book for their sequels now.

I forgot that Bill Condon is also gay. That could explain why he felt it was important to announce that LeFou was gay. The movie didn't really get hurt from it so it worked out in the end.

I'm not a big Will Smith fan anyway so I wasn't psyched with his casting especially since his last few films have been flops so I didn't think he was really going to be as huge a box office draw anyway. Would have liked to have seen James Monroe Iglehart, but I knew Disney would never cast an "unknown" for such a prominent role. I don't think Aladdin sounds like it will be as much a carbon copy as BATB was, but we'll see in a few months.

Cinderella was as great as the animated version for me. It had its faults, but overall I love it equally and it's one of my favorite Disney live-action films ever. I've never been a fan of The Jungle Book and while I liked the live-action film when I saw it, I appreciated it more after I read the book and realized that the new film drew heavily from the book. One of these days I plan on watching the animated and live-action films back to back since I haven't seen either in a while, so I can tell which one I truly prefer. Interestingly enough I recently found this article about The Jungle Book. Apparently the animated film is the biggest film ever to come out in Germany. I didn't realize it was so beloved there. I always assumed its biggest fanbase was American.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ ... est-885953

I think Jim in Treasure Planet is certainly more interesting than Jim in the books and other film adaptations where he's more of a cipher for the audience to project themselves onto. I've heard some people call him bland or just outright unlikable since he's too much of a teenager cliche, but he resonated with me and felt realistic and fleshed out enough. While Disney has lots of dead parents stories they usually don't do much with parents abandoning their children. The only examples I can really think of are Cassim in Aladdin and the King of Thieves and Morgan's mother who leaves her and Robert in Enchanted.

I remember I had no interest in John Carter whatsoever when I first saw the trailers. It looked like mindless CGI fare and I wasn't surprised to hear it bombed. At the time I had no idea that John Carter was a classic character who shared the same creator as Tarzan and inspired most of our current action/adventure franchises today like Superman and Star Wars. I read some people talking about how the film is actually good, so a few years back, I finally decided to give it a watch and I actually quite liked it. Maybe I appreciate it more because I've become familiar with the source material now. I'd love for the film to get the sequels that were initially planned, on Disney's streaming service at least since theatrical debuts are highly unlikely.

When I mentioned Alice in Wonderland, I meant the animated one, just to be clear, since it wasn't beloved by audiences until decades later. As for the live-action one, I thought it was just ok but nothing like the original. It was more unique because it was the first of its kind and the visuals were coming right after Avatar, but it hasn't aged well at all.

Would you say that the males in Mulan are played out to be fools? I can think of some examples, but I wouldn't count Fa Zhou, Shang, Shang's father, the Emperor, Shan Yu and his men, the head Ancestor, etc. in that category.

I think Pocahontas had the issue that it dealt with the eradication of an entire race so it affected more people, whereas Anastasia was only controversial with the surviving members of her family, which aren't many. From what I remember, they weren't thrilled with the movie but they didn't find it super offensive either. Pocahontas elicited a wide spectrum of reactions even from Native Americans, as some loved and lauded it, some felt it was just ok but not groundbreaking, and others despised it and called it a whitewashing of history.

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

Well said (about Brother Bear)! Regardless of what could've been said about it, it did felt like a feature Disney could've done in the nineties. Unfortunately the risks didn't payed off. But what did you think about the other films from the early 2000's?


I didn't take the "greatest animated event since The Lion King" tagline in the trailer seriously, either. I thought it was just another gimmick. But it certainly affected the critics


Thanks.


To be honest, I don't remember much of Periwinkle, but that may be due to finding Secrets of the Wings to be the weakest of the Tinker Bell franchise. What are your thoughts about the Disney Fairies franchise?


Well said. I think it's unfair by Pixar fanboys to blame Disney, but we live in a world that purisim exists in a big way. But haters are going to hate.


You're completely right about it! Hahahaha!


Me neither. I've always found Will Smith to be too blatant in a contrived way. I've wouldn't mind to see someone like Bryan Cranston as the Genie, since he's wacky, but also has a certain sensibility.


I thought the live action version of Cinderella was well made and I liked it a lot. I liked Walt's Cinderella as a kid, but both my adult and teenage years made me less fond of it (to be honest). I was a huge fan of Walt's The Jungle Book and though my teenage and adult years has made me realize that the script is not particularly tidy and dense, I still have a certain soft spot for it. At least the 2016 remake served as better script-wise (and incorporated elements from the other two unofficial "jungle" films, The Lion King and Tarzan), because it seemed more compelling. What I didn't like about it, was the inclusion of the two signature songs, which frankly felt jarring and out of place.


Oh yes, I know about that one! It's interesting, right?


Funny how you mention Cassim, but to his defense, at least he gets a redemption, since his son finds him. As for Morgan's mother, she's from a live action version, hahaha. To be honest. What do you think about Aladdin & The King of Thieves?


Oh, sorry. Regardless of the dud-reputation Walt's Alice in Wonderland has, at least it has a fanbase now. I remember liking it in my childhood and I was shocked when I discovered how people perceived it as a dud, even by Disney's staff.


At least the other males. But this doesn't come from me, it comes from certain reviews I've read. And the men in Brave is also an example of this.

The Emperor's New Groove is a funny movie but I'm really not a fan. It doesn't feel like Disney, something I criticized Hercules for, but while that still has the Disney touch from time to time, TENG is a whole other animal. I definitely get Warner Brothers vibes from it, which makes sense since I think the director of it also directed WB's Cats Don't Dance (a film I actually do love). Generally, I prefer dramas over comedies so I would have preferred Kingdom of the Sun. Atlantis isn't my favorite but I don't hate it either. It has a lot going for it and there was clearly a lot of love and detail put into it but I never warmed up to it as much. I do love the score though, or at least in certain scenes. Home on the Range I only ever saw once (the only other movie from the 2000s besides Treasure Planet which I didn't see in theaters) so I don't really remember it except the yodeling. As for Chicken Little, I hated the father and the entire baseball plot but the alien invasion never made sense to me at all.

I never liked Tinker Bell in the first place but at least she had some personality, some sass. The Disney Fairies one is even more bland and lifeless. I personally don't care for the franchise and I've only seen bits and pieces from the films. The only character I really like is Vidia. The books are better although I've only read the first one which is what the film franchise was supposedly based off of, even though the books and films are set in very different time periods.

I'm not really familiar with Bryan Cranston's work so I don't have much of an opinion on him. I think Will Ferrell was one of the choices for the Genie of the Ring back when they wanted another celebrity actor along with Robin Williams so he could have been a choice. Not that I'm such a big fan of him either.

What elements from Tarzan and The Lion King did the live-action Jungle Book draw from? I didn't really mind the songs being added although it was a little jarring to see King Louie singing just because he's a giant creature unlike the jovial and fun-loving ape from the animated film.

I'm surprised that The Jungle Book has had such longevity, still hailing as the highest grossing film ever in Germany. I'm curious as to how the live-action film was received there since the article suggested that German audiences wouldn't like the darker take.

Aladdin and the King of Thieves is one of the better Disney sequels. I like the songs and the general story, especially the fact that Aladdin and Jasmine finally get married. I also loved the mythology added to Aladdin such as the Hand of Midas, the scepter with the Oracle, and the Vanishing Isle existing on a turtle. Bookending the Aladdin trilogy with the Arabian Nights (reprise) that was meant to end the original film was also an inspired choice.

That's all right, I should have specified that I meant the animated Alice, not the live-action one. It's one of my personal favorites and I'm glad that it's viewed as a beloved classic now and not a financial and critical dud.

I suppose Yao, Ling, and Chien Po come across that way in Mulan but I always viewed them as the comic relief. And they end up more effective in the climax than any of Merida's suitors or their fathers ever were in Brave.

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

I like TENG and thought it was a breath of fresh air when I first saw it, despite that I remember looking forward to Kingdom of the Sun and was dissapointed when I learned about the different storyline. But yeah, TENG certainly feels like a Warner Brothers feature, both in execution and design. But I've never seen Cats Don't Dance and it's a pity that the director from both movies directed the bloody awful Chicken Little. But I do think that at least Hercules feels like Disney.


I liked Atlantis when it first came out and didn't understood it's negative criticisms. However, later viewings has made me realize it's flaws (too much juvenile comedy and frankly tackling a genre that doesn't lend itself to the medium), but it's still a good movie nonetheless.


I'm one of the minorities who actually liked Home on the Range. Though I never went gaga for it, it was a fun and enjoyable movie on it's own right. Some com'on, bring me the hate


OK, I will be honest and say that Chicken Little has it's moments, but overall the film is a dud. At least the pop culture references saved the movie, but overall the film was over the top-frenetic. The film was over the top sappy with the father-son-line and the alien scenes were just terrible. There are so many scenes in the movie that makes me cringe. And yes, I hated the father as well.


I agree that Tinker Bell is rather bland and generic in those movies, but I still find her more redeemable there than she was in the Peter Pan films. Otherwise, I liked the Tinker Bell franchise, despite that they were made for toddlers in mind. But the first films were excellent. As for Vidia, don't you think that she visually resembles Megara?


A buffalo stampede and that Mowgli is being ingenious, like Tarzan. And frankly, I find the climax somewhat reminiscent of the one in Tarzan.


Me too, actually. The live action version was certainly more serious in tone, but not particularly darker.


Agreed. I saw Aladdin and the King of Thieves in my childhood, so I have a certain childhood bias towards it. But I like it and find it to be a redeeming film on it's own merits. It's certainly the most serious of the Aladdin films and certainly one with the most substance and depth. Caseem is a conflicted and dimensional character, preceeding Silver (who has the same conflict). The songs are okay, though, but I love Out of Thin Air. I also liked that Aladdin was back to his humble self, as I found him to be at times condescending and cocky in the series.
Even Jasmine was more humble than usual. I also liked the mythology added to it, despite not all of it having to be Arabian. And yes, it was nice that it was bookended with the Arabian Nights that was going to end the original.

Just wondering, what are your thoughts about the other direct-to-video-sequels?


Me too. It certainly didn't deserve it's lackluster reputation.


Agreed. I used those from Brave as an example, due to how they were also being labeled for being buffoons in a movie that were about female empowerment.

I didn't realize Chicken Little's director was the same as one from TENG and Cats Don't Dance. Lol, that's lowered my opinion of him now. If you ever want to watch Cats Don't Dance, they have the movie free on Vudu for a limited time. I don't think you need an account to watch their free movies although I'm not sure.

Some of the scenes in Atlantis, like Kida's transformation, are still the gold standard of 2D animation for me. And I love Helga's first meeting with Milo as well. Rourke is a bit one-dimensional for me, but to be honest, I couldn't see a different take on him. He suits the role he's given for the film. The rest of the supporting cast never really made an impression on me.

I should probably rewatch Home on the Range one day but I don't think I could take Roseanne. I at least want to listen to the songs again because I've heard people say that while they're not Alan Menken's best work, they're still pretty good songs.

I actually like the musical sequences in Chicken Little, but that's all and frankly they don't belong in a Disney movie. They feel straight out of Dreamworks. All the characters are just terrible, in design and personality. I barely feel for a single one, but I detest the dad most of all.

I definitely get Meg vibes from Vidia, both in design and even in personality. The versions of them in the Disney Parks are also quite similar imo. The other fairies are way too generic for my taste and all seem defined by one single central trait.

I forgot about the buffalo stampede but if I'm correct, that existed in the book as well. It's in the final chapter featuring Mowgli and it's part of Mowgli's plan to kill Shere Khan, so actually it's book accurate. Mowgli being crafty and inventive is new but I never really saw Tarzan that way. He doesn't use human ingenuity to create devices and contraptions that can aid the animals. I do agree that the climax is reminiscent of Tarzan, but I'd also add in The Lion King here because of all the fire.

If I'm correct, the original Arabian Nights had a lot of Greek mythology and references as well, at least Sindbad did with the Cyclops and even the mermaids/sirens. So the non-Arabian influences worked for me and I never questioned their inclusion in the film. I'd like to imagine that Aladdin and the King of Thieves takes place right after the original movie but Iago's return and sudden redemption doesn't fit. What is your opinion on Iago btw? I always loved him and because of the series, he was a central member of the gang for me. I rarely ever saw him as a villain and I think even the late 90s and early 2000s Disney merchandise frequently marketed Iago as part of Aladdin and friends rather than as a villain.

Cinderella 2 is usually despised but I have some good memories from it (probably because I haven't seen it at all in recent times). I didn't care much for the plot of Jaq becoming human but I loved Anastasia's redemption with the baker and also the new character of Prudence. Cinderella 3 is one of the best sequels even if I wish it was more closely modeled after the cruise ship musical, Twice Charmed. I think that would tighten up the plot and give an excuse to add more songs. Otherwise, I quite like the songs already in it and especially Cinderella's portrayal. The Little Mermaid 2 is very nostalgic for me and I basically grew up on it as much as the original film. I'm no longer a big fan of the movie and all its faults are glaringly obvious now, but I have a PC game for it which I still love to play and Melody is still one of the better sequel characters. TLM3 is just plain awful and I hate how it breaks continuity of the TV series. Now, so many people are only familiar with Ariel's sisters from this film which is a pity. I remember I was really excited for this movie too and I used to rewatch the special preview for this move on The Little Mermaid Platinum DVD over and over because I couldn't wait for the movie to come out (and of course it was delayed so many times), but the final product was horrendous and an utter waste. Could have really done something with Ursula.

To talk about a few more, I used to love Mulan II a lot as well. The depiction of the characters doesn't really fit in with the original since now Mulan is all about having a duty to her heart rather than to tradition and family honor, but her depiction in the sequel probably gels better with American audiences. It was also nice to see her relationship with Shang developed and I liked the new songs a lot. THOND2 is plain awful and I don't care for it at all. The animation is the worst out of all the sequels, except maybe the Aladdin ones, and everything about it is just plain garbage. Pocahontas II is a mixed bag for me. I like seeing Pocahontas in England plus all the new songs which are some of the best in any Disney sequel, but I hate how quickly her relationship with John Smith is dismantled. Tarzan II was really boring and I don't remember it at all. Wish it wasn't a midquel because I never cared to see more about young Tarzan. I probably could have if the plot had been right, since I like young Tarzan's scenes in the original film, but it was just a filler story. Tarzan and Jane is better but only because I liked the original TV series and this was just a few episodes of that strung together.

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

OK, thanks


Yeah, Kida's transformation is a highlight in the movie for me as well and I thought that Kida was frankly a good character. She had more personality than most of the Disney Princesses (which makes you nitpick for why she's not in the franchise). I thought Helga was one of the films weak links, since she's clearly more dimensional that she's allowed to be, yet she becomes an antagonist at the very end. I liked the other characters, more than Milo, but they weren't allowed to shine as much as him.


The songs are alright, though.


Agreed. The only character that I actually liked, was Abby, who was endearing on her own right. And yeah, Chicken Little felt like a DreamWorks movie (though to be fair, Disney came up with the pop culture formula with Aladdin, though DreamWorks would be forever labeled for it). I especially hated the father.


Agreed, just that Meg was of course better. Though I do somewhat like a couple of them, they are still quite generic.


True, but there were fire in the climax in Walt's The Jungle Book, too. At least sort of. Speaking of which, have you noticed that all the climaxes in the three official "jungle" movies has both lightning and thunder during the climax and rain after the villain gets defeated?

And yeah, the live action remake of The Jungle Book does have several nods to the original book and frankly was better for it. That was something that I noticed when I saw the film. I have a friend of mine who absolutely LOVED this remake and LOVED the rendering of Shere Khan, because she thought he was a great villain.


For me too.


Sorry to say, but I didn't like Iago. Though at least he was more redeemable in both Aladdin sequels (in fact, it's a little irony that The Return of Jafar has it's title about Jafar, when in fact Iago is the protagonist), but I absolutely DREADED Iago in the series. He was unlikable, callous, selfish and grating.

What are your thoughts about the Aladdin series?


I don't think I actually hated Cinderella II, but is serves basically nothing and is just some randomly mended stories that never serves with the continuity of the film. At least Cinderella III was clever enough, because it served to fix all the criticisms against the fairy tale and was alright enough.


Oh, I have that game too! To be honest, The Little Mermaid II may not completely garbage, but it's still quite awful. What I like about it is the songs and that Melody is given a legitimate reason to yearn to the sea (and that we also get an actual mother/daughter-dynamic for once, which this movie rarely gets credit for), but the movie is overall mediocre.


Agreed. It was plain awful and broke the continutiy of the series. Besides, it really made little sense of why Ariel's mother was killed by humans, which would've logically messed up Ariel's fascination for the humans.

Speaking of which, what are your thoughts about the series?


Mulan II is also a mixed bag to me. It starts out pretty well, but falls into mediocrity pretty quick and after that into a sappy melodrama. The storyline is slim, but really the film brings out the worst in both Shang and Mushu. The conflict between Mulan and Shang (brought out after the selfish Mushu) is contrived and you never care for it. What makes up for it is that Mulan is frankly more interesting than in the film and the songs, but otherwise the film is just muh.


To be honest, I don't hate Hunchback II as the majority, since I find that the movie works. However, the storyline is still quite slim and serves nothing besides giving Quasi his much needed love interest. However, it's a nice way to see the characters again and the songs are quite good.


Agreed. Pocahontas II has it's moments of tone problems and melodrama, but otherwise the film works well enough. I do like the songs and seeing the characters in new situations. And frankly, the movie had something that the predecessor didn't have: Suspense and action. As a kid, I thought John Smith deserved Pocahontas, but let's be real, she should adhere to the historical one .


I don't hate Tarzan II, though I agree that just like the majority of the cheapquels, it's just a slim story that really is not needed. However, lately I've realized that the movie serves a purpose of young Tarzan feeling an acceptance among his family. Yet what makes up for it that it has it's moments. Tarzan and Jane is of course better. Did you like the series?

Just wondering, what are your thoughts of Simba's Pride, who's the most beloved of the cheapquels?

While I liked Kida, for some reason she never gelled with me very much. Maybe because we spend so little time with her because she doesn't come until halfway through the movie and then she spends the entire final act of the film transformed into crystal. She's striking enough to still be memorable in her short role, but I still would have liked to have seen more of her. For that reason, I tended to forget her a lot and not really think about her. However, a recent rewatch made me realize that she's a better character than I gave her credit for. As for Helga, yes she joins Rourke, but her final scene has her turning on Rourke. It was really Disney's first ever anti-hero and what I loved about her was how morally ambiguous she was. She turns on Rourke, not because she feels guilty for her actions, but because he betrayed her first (twice). She's dying and she knows that her final act will ensure that he ultimately loses at the end as well. I found that compelling anyway, or at least now I do.

I remember liking Abby although I also remember she had some rather very grotesque shots in the movie lol. Aladdin may have come up with the pop culture formula, but it kept it limited to the Genie whereas Dreamworks films have all the characters constantly wise-cracking.

Meg is the original after all. Interestingly enough, Vidia is the only fairy in the main Disney Fairies franchise who was a somewhat main character in the original books as well. The other characters (Rosetta, Fawn, Iridessa, Silvermist, etc.) were all very minor characters if I'm correct.

There was a fire in the animated Jungle Book but it's pretty small and limited in range compared to the full-scale wildfire that erupts in the live-action film, hence why I thought of The Lion King. It's certainly more cinematic. I didn't really notice that all three of the "jungle" movies have both lightning and thunder plus rain in their films. Tarzan technically has rain before Clayton is defeated, but yeah the three movies have this commonality. On a slightly unrelated note, all three of the "jungle" movies have arguably some of Disney's most iconic non-Menken soundtracks. I'm glad your friend really liked the film and that seems to be the popular consensus.

I love Iago for all the traits that you despise him for. He has a good heart, deep, deep (deep) down but he wouldn't be Iago if he wasn't selfish and grating to those around him. He was always my fav Aladdin sidekick, over Genie, Abu, Carpet, and Rajah. I think in part because he tended to have the most screentime with Jasmine compared to the others.

I like the Aladdin series but as I mentioned before, I wasn't a fan of how Aladdin and Jasmine weren't married in there which is why I made the comment about pretending that Aladdin and the King of Thieves takes place right after the original movie (which doesn't really work because of Iago but oh well). I also would have liked to have seen more characters from the Arabian Nights stories. Apparently Sindbad was not allowed to come in the series because Disney wanted to keep him available in case they ever made a feature film of him, which we very nearly did get. I'm almost glad though that we didn't end up getting it because the script made the film feel way too much like Hercules for my taste.

I would have liked to have seen the Cinderella TV series that ended up becoming Cinderella II, just in case there might have been more episodes like the Anastasia-baker one. I'm sure they all couldn't be as bad as the Jaq becoming human one. I agree though that the stories don't really fit in well with the original movie. The third film at least respected the continuity of the original.

Do you like TLMII PC game? I love the songs from the movie as well. It is nice to see a mother-daughter dynamic even if the relationship is written in such an awful manner, which is probably why people don't give this film credit for that.

I never understood Ariel's mother being killed by humans either, because as you said, I can't imagine Ariel would be as fascinated with humans then. It's possible though that she was open-minded enough that she could see past that, unlike her father and sisters. I also hated the design and name of Ariel's mother. She was just prototype Ariel 2.0 (or should I say 0.1?) and her name was too similar to Attina's for my taste. Not to mention that the real Athena was not too fond of Poseidon and his family.

I love TLM TV series! I've seen it several times and I love the new supporting characters. I wish we could have gotten some sort of explanation as to where Urchin goes though. I also would have liked to have seen more of Ariel's sisters besides just Arista (and very occasionally Alana). Marvel used to make comics for The Little Mermaid's TV Series (set during Seasons 2-3) which I've also read and I own some of them. It's a nice extension of the series even though the Seaclops is completely different in the comics compared to what he is in the show.

I never cared much for Mushu's villainous turn in the film and it doesn't do much good for Shang's characterization. However, I love the scene where Mulan and Shang are both hanging on from the rope bridge and he ultimately sacrifices himself to save her. That scene felt like it could have been in one of Disney's feature films. This and Mulan breaking down over Shang's death right after.

Part of the reason I never liked Hunchback II was because Esmeralda has a very limited role in this film compared to the first. I think even Phoebus gets slightly more screentime than her because he's investigating the carnies. Zephyr wasn't very interesting either. I did like though how pretty much the entire surviving original cast returned for this film.

Should Pocahontas adhere to her historical story? Because in that case, she doesn't have much more time left to live. In fact, that means that she'll die during the ending scene of Pocahontas II when she's on the boat with John Rolfe and returning to America.

I did like the Tarzan series a lot actually. It was more pulp fiction like the books and movies than the Disney film but I liked the new characters like Queen La.

I forgot about Simba's Pride. That's one of the better Disney sequels and it ranks really high for me although I didn't realize until I just recently watched it how contrived Kiara and Kovu's relationship really is. She meets him just once as a child and years later she's utterly convinced that he's good and innocent, despite not really knowing him. However, I do love the songs a lot. I used to watch this film a lot too when I was younger so it was nice to go back and rewatch it.

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

It's funny how people are complaining about Kida having little screentime, despite how I personally thought that she was still pretty enhanced in her scenes. We get to know her pretty well. However, despite how she lacks a song, she's pretty much a modern Disney Princess in every sense, from her bubbly, outgoing personality, her curiosity about learning new worlds (Ariel), being somewhat a tribal Princess from a Chief in a world which invadors come (Pocahontas) and having little outfit and basically embodying the Princess traits of lacking a mom (in fact, Atlantis is a first for Disney, of actually showing a Princess' mothers demise at the beginning).
At least Moana was deliberately given a mother in order to end all the complaints, hahaha (and it's true, just listen to the audio commentary for Moana). In fact, it's remarkable that the Revival era has done some with the criticism, but the only film which actually is about a mother/daughter relationship is a Pixar princess property, whereas the other films has the moms serving little purpose.


Well, we can agree to disagree. I thought there were a couple of moments where Helga showed her humanity (by the short memorial and getting into Atlantis, realizing that there were people), but it was eventually thrown aside. So by sharing her screentime with other characters, she was hampered by little character development.


Haha, agree! But I still found her endearing nonetheless.


Fair enough.


And both are taken from Bambi.


Agreed and two of them were made during Menken's period, whereas Walt's The Jungle Book at least had their regular composer at the time. I've always wondered how Menken felt about being left for Mulan and Tarzan.

As for Tarzan, I like the songs more than the score. I've always heard complaints about the songs, but I think they are great and advance the story. Even it came at a time where I was simply used to the Broadway formula and was baffled that most of the songs were going to be sung by Collins himself. I can understand why they thought it was hard to have Tarzan himself sing, but they managed to have Quasimodo sing


Oh, trust me, she can't stop babbling about it


The Aladdin series is a mixed bag for me. In many ways, I enjoyed it, because they're a fond childhood memory of mine. But overall I thought the tone was darker and more harrowing than it was from the movie. I felt the comedy was reduced and I wasn't particularly fond of several of the new characters, which were mostly unlikable.
At the time I even felt that Aladdin was condescending and unlikable in a couple of episodes. However, I still enjoy some of the episodes for their strengths and they were entertaining on their own merits.


Really? Where your source for that? Could it have to do with Dreamworks getting their rights to the story?


Somewhat, but it was also a little too easy, hahaha.


Well said.


Two words; Lazy writing.


I didn't hate Athena's design, but she was too reminiscent of Ariel. A little creativity would do. It seemed as her inclusion was mandatory due to the criticism of the abscence of Disney mothers and while it's neat, at least she's not a part of it. Due to how Belle and her mother has a portrait in DisneyWorld (and how even Jane from Tarzan draws her mother in one of the episodes of the series), who wonders how Jasmine and Pocahontas' mothers were.


I love the Mermaid series as well! Even more now in my adult years than in my childhood years! As a kid I enjoyed some episodes, but thought it suffered by the same tone problems that the Aladdin series suffered from. My adult years have made me realize how endearing and enchanting the series is. I love that we'll see an Ariel at her very best. I also liked the songs and the score.


I didn't like that scene, to be honest. I thought it was too contrived and over the top dramatic. Especially since Shang was antagonising Mulan all the way long.


You know what, it's funny that regardless of the low stamp the cheapquels have, most of the cast usually returns for the cheapquels. That happens for most of them.


Pardon me, I didn't meant it that way. My adhere-comment was meant to be some snarky irony from my side


I also liked it, because just like the Aladdin and Lilo & Stitch series, it was a continuation after the movie, but also was in tune to the spirit and tone to the movie. What I especially liked is the inclusion of the Wasiri tribe (since the feature movie pretty much made sure that the explorers were the first humans Tarzan ever saw). Despite how I felt the comedy was contrived in the series as well, just as it was in the movie.

Oh, I also like the Lilo & Stitch series as well, because it was breezy and frisky fun. And also hilarious at times and expanded the characters.


Haven't we discussed Simba's Pride once priorly? If so, then pardon me. Otherwise, I agree with Kiara and Kovu's relationship, which has always been my main gripe with the film. Otherwise, I like Simba's Pride, it's cute and endearing and has good songs. The animation is slightly better than the average Disney cheapquel and the score is nice.
However, the comedy is mostly awkward and forced, which is certainly evident in Timon and Pumbaa's case, who are highly annoying here. Regardless of what you could say about them in The Lion King, at least they were tolerable there. Here they serve no purpose.

What are your thoughts on The Return of Jafar?

shares. However, her overall look is very different with the white hair, uneven bangs, tattoos on her face, etc. Not to mention her outfit is even more skimpy than what Ariel, Jasmine, and Pocahontas usually wear. Well, maybe not Ariel but Ariel gets away with it for being a mermaid. I didn't think about how Kida is the first princess whose mother we see die. For that matter, the same applies to her father unless you count Cinderella's father. I personally don't see the point of shoehorning in a mother if she isn't going to have any role in the film. That really applies to Moana since the mother has little to no role and isn't memorable at all. You could cut her out and not change anything about the film.

I remember those scenes with Helga but I think the point was that she was still mercenary enough to put her qualms aside and go ahead with the plan.

Yes, I'm not surprised that Bambi fits into the classification of the jungle films as well since The Lion King is often considered its spirital successor/remake.

From what I remember, Menken wanted a break after Hercules which is why he didn't do another film until Home on the Range. Mulan, at least, was meant to go to Stephen Schwartz.

I like the score for Tarzan. It's certainly different from Menken's scores but that's to be expected and I still find it thrilling and captivating for a Disney film. I personally love Tarzan's songs and the entire soundtrack. I never really understood the argument about why Tarzan can't sing but it also dawned on me that the Beast never sings out loud either. His only song, Something There, is introspective, so we only hear him singing in his head, not actually out loud. So I guess I can see why Disney didn't think a character like Tarzan would belt out a song.

There was one particular episode of Aladdin that was very dark imo. It's one where Aladdin finds out that his old childhood friend, who he thought was either kidnapped or dead, was transformed into some creature thanks to Mirage. I didn't care for some of the villains like Mechanicles and while I didn't mind Abis Mal, he could be annoying. However, I really liked Mozenrath and also Mirage. Eden didn't really leave an impression on me though and some of the names were absolutely ridiculous for the supporting characters like Sultan Pasta Al-Dente. Not funny or clever at all.

Musker and Clements were given a few choices for films to adapt after Aladdin. Sindbad was one of the choices but they chose Hercules because it was closet to the comic book style adventure story they really wanted to make, Treasure Planet. Dreamsworks didn't start on it until many years later, probably because Katzenberg took the story idea with him. Here's the story outline for the Sinbad film that Disney nearly made. Scroll down to the link and click on the part that says Sinbad.
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp37. ... tment.html

Lol, most Youtube comments will complain that TLMII PC game was way too difficult for a child to play.

I know that people always wanted to see Ariel's mother and she was one of the most requested characters for the third film, besides Ursula's origin. I don't remember the episode with Jane drawing her mother, but I've seen the potrait of Belle's mother. Jasmine's mother appeared in an old Disney Princess storybook featuring Ariel, Jasmine, and Esmeralda. Interestingly enough, this storybook line also had one for Cinderella, Belle, and Pocahontas and Belle's mother has a picture as well with her looking exactly like Alice's older sister. Not very original. As for Pocahontas' mother, she's the only one we haven't seen but I gather it's probably because Powhatan society was polygamous so it's easier to not look into Pocahontas' extended family.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dis ... 0620232541

There are some really great songs in TLM series which is something I think Aladdin could have used. Sure, the sequels had songs, but it would have been nice for the TV series to have some here and there as well.

I can see your point about Shang's death scene. I guess I like overdramatic lol. It's not very usual for a Disney film but it works for a war film imo. By this point in the movie, Mulan realizes that Mushu was behind all the misunderstandings with Shang so it wasn't entirely out of place.

I think the early Disney sequels had high expectations, at least from the general public, hence why the original casts tended to return more often than not. Hunchback II was created pretty early on (hence the cheap animation) but not released until really late. I'm not sure why that is.

Oh lol, I didn't realize you were being sarcastic with that comment about Pocahontas. That certainly makes more sense now.

I really liked the Lilo & Stitch series as well. It was one of my favorites growing up but I haven't seen it or the Tarzan one at all in years. TLM is the only one I somewhat regularly watch, followed by The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. Occasionally Aladdin, but only the episodes I like.

Yes, I think we did talk about Simba's Pride before, but that's certainly ok. Timon and Pumbaa don't take up as much screentime as I thought they would though so I didn't mind. I suppose I like them so that probably also affects my opinion.

I don't really get all the hate for The Return of Jafar. I don't think it's really as bad as people say, except for the animation, but Aladdin and the King of Thieves has the same animation quality and people adore that film. I enjoy Iago so maybe that's why since it's basically his movie and I guess some people weren't happy that Robin Williams wasn't in this one. I really like the songs in the film as well.

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

Fair enough, but he's a leading dad, not a mother


Fair enough. At least the Revival era has taken that criticism to heart and made most of the mothers living (with the exception of Frozen). Besides, though the mothers are not entirely useless in their films, they could've been cut out foom their films and not having their narrative affected. What irked me a little about The Princess and the Frog is that you had Tiana's mother alive (a change for once) and yet having her deceased father being the main focus of the film (which reminded me a little bit of Quest for Camelot, where the same dynamic is shown).

Speaking of which, have you noticed that the films from the Revival era who's followed the typical Disney formula have been the ones who has a Princess?


True, though Bambi is technically not a jungle film, but a forest film Though The Lion King was deliberately modeled and shaped after Bambi. But let's not forget how The Fox and the Hound fit that mold as well. However, The Jungle Book was the first film after Bambi to take entirely place in nature.

However, speaking of successor, I know there is a poll between Bambi and The Lion King, but I think both are great in their own ways.


Yeah. I've read that Schwartz felt that his work wasn't appreciated, so therefore he left Mulan. But it would've been interesting to see what he would've done with the film.


I do like Tarzan's score as well, but I find it to be inferior to other Mark Mancina's scores (as Brother Bear). To be honest, there are certain parts of the score that doesn't work, but I do like it.


I can understand why Disney did found it jarring, but it's notable how they made the non-song policy a rule for most of the characters of the film. With the exception of Kala's singing in You'll Be in My Heart and Trashin' the Camp (which was deliberately added to make Rosie O'Donell sing, so one must wonder why she didn't join another Disney project that was a musical).


There were plenty of dark episodes in the Aladdin-series, imo.

To be honest, I liked Mechanicles, because he could be entertaining at times. Abis Mal could be annoying, but I could tolerate him. I did like Sadira's design and Saleen, the mermaid, but the others I didn't care for.


Thanks for sharing. Perhaps Musker and Clements didn't went to Sinbad due to having (somewhat) the same setting as Aladdin. Btw, what are your thoughts about DreamWorks' Sinbad ?


Really? I was a teenager when I got the game and thought it was fairly easy, haha.


Really? I didn't know.


Here's the episode; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGY58mG9Dpk&t=1180s. And the portrait begins on 0:47.


Oh, I found that one online and I agree, not very original. I've seen the portrait of Belle's mother from DisneyWorld, but I hadn't seen the one Jasmine's mother before you sent me and she looks exactly like Jasmine. Btw, speaking of Esmeralda, it's notable how both she and Megara are (apparently) orphaned. Since they introduced the stock component of having a father/daughter dynamic with the heroines, it's remarkable that both lack parents (though in Esmeralda's case is somewhat fair, due to how she doesn't know her mother until the very end in the original novel).

What are your thoughts about the knowledge of Belle's mother in the live action version of BATB ?


I know that Pocahontas was supposed to actually have a mother, something that Eisner supported. But I know that the polygamous reasons were probably why they didn't went for the idea. But I think Pocahontas would've suited having a mother, because I could see it. And it's remarkable that out of all the Princesses, her mother gets referenced more than once.


Agreed. It's remarkable that the Aladdin TV series excluded songs completely, considering that it's TV pilot had songs. Perhaps it could be to demographic?


To be honest, I thought Mulan should've ditched Mushu entirely after that revelation!


Yeah, Hunchback II was originally completed in 2000 (according to the end credits), but released in 2002. According to Wikipedia, it was to synergize with the DVD release of the original film. And IMDb says that it was completed in 1997.


Oh, I grew up with The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh as well! I liked the first season and it's best it was a quite cute and endearing series. I haven't seen so many episodes after reaching my adulthood, but I could watch them again. As a toddler I saw the series before seeing the 1977 movie, though I knew about each featurette through Read Alongs-books.

Did you see the Hercules series?


For all the different opinions about Timon and Pumbaa, I thought they were mostly adequate in most of their properties, even in The Lion King 1 1/2, which is basically their story. However, Simba's Pride was the only movie where I truly found them annoying and not otherwise. It's even remarkable that Hakuna Matata gets mentioned once!
What are your thoughts about The Lion King 1 1/2


To be honest, I don't exactly hate The Return of Jafar, since it has a nostalgic value for me, since I got it when I was a child. However, growing up has made me realize it's flaws (even the year after receiving it has made realize that it's not excellent). It's not bad, it's just that it's storyline is basically slim. With the exception of integrating Iago to the squad, it's basically just a revenge story for Jafar and little beyond that. Besides, I thought the movie struggled with the same issue as the series; A little darker than the predecessor was.

Did you like Beauty and the Beast Enchanted Christmas?

What I meant was that you said that Kida's mom is the first princess' mother to die onscreen. So I commented that the same actually is true when it comes to a princess' father. Kida's father is the first we see die onscreen unless you count Cinderella's father.

I did note that TPATF places heavy emphasis on the father even though Tiana's mother is alive which I wasn't a big fan of. I remember the early draft had Tiana/Maddie with a little sister, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was scrapped because she didn't fit into Tiana's relationship with her father which is what drives her dream.
At least in Quest for Camelot, Kayley's mother has some sort of role, even if it's being kidnapped.

If we go into forest films, Pocahontas would count as well, and maybe even Snow White and Sleeping Beauty. I think one of the Disney parks has some sort of jungle show that features The Lion King, Tarzan, The Jungle Book, and Pocahontas of all films. So Disney clearly felt it was jungle-themed enough lol.

Between The Lion King and Bambi, the former is more fun to watch even if the latter is more artistically exquisite.

Actually, I read that Schwartz left because Disney wasn't happy that he was also working on The Prince of Egypt for Dreamworks. They basically kicked him out or exacerbated the situation so that he would leave. I actually really like the one song that still exists that he wrote and I wish we could hear the rest of the ones as well. Maybe if we ever get a Legacy Mulan CD.

I haven't watched any of Mark Mancina's non-Disney films so I can't compare his other works to Tarzan.

I guess since Rosie O'Donnell got the part of Terk, it wouldn't make much sense for them to tell her that they'll use her for another film that is a musical and then have to find her a suitable part. Tarzan doesn't have many songs anyway so it wouldn't be difficult to add one more. People hate Trashin' the Camp but I find it to be quite catchy and I really enjoy it. I'm sure Justin Timberlake does as well lol.

I meant that out of the dark Aladdin episodes, the one with Aladdin's friend becoming a creature is the only one that I remember off the top of my head. I guess the one where Jasmine is transformed into a snake could count. I couldn't really understand Mechanicles. Is he some maniac who thinks he still exists in Ancient Greece or Rome? Why is he always in Agrabah? I also liked Saleen and sorta Sadira as well even if I never really watched most of her episodes so I don't have the same love for her that others do.

I'm assuming that having done Aladdin, Musker and Clements didn't want to do Sinbad since they claimed that they rejected Swan Lake for being too similar to The Little Mermaid. However, the reason I've seen is that they chose Hercules because it was the closest to Treasure Planet, at least genre wise. I don't remember much about the Dreamworks Sinbad film. I wasn't pleased with shifting the setting to Greece although that was to be expected after 9/11. I didn't care for his design or Marina's design either or any of the supporting cast. The only reason I liked the film was because of Eris. I love her design and Pfeiffer's voice. Great character and wish she was in a Disney film or even the villain for the Disney Sinbad film.

Maybe it's because you were a teen when you played TLMII game that you feel that way. I was a kid and I didn't find it impossible but it could be difficult at times during the final levels. At my age now, it's a piece of cake lol.

I remember on the thread for TLMIII here on this site that people were mostly clamoring to see Ursula's origin and Ariel's mother. Pretty much everything else had been covered.

Thanks for posting Jane's mother. I get Meg vibes from her which makes sense considering the animator.

Esmeralda made sense since she never had a father and her whole story in the novel is being separated from her mother, as you pointed out. Usually the mother subplot is cut from Hunchback's adaptations. Often Clopin is made into her adopted father who took her in. Meg being an orphan didn't make much sense since she's a princess in the myths and the daughter of King Creon, the King of Thebes. We never get anything about her family background in the film.

As for the live-action BATB, I didn't care for the mother subplot. It felt shoehorned in just because they didn't want people to complain about all the dead mothers in Disney. That entire sequence could be removed and it wouldn't change anything else in the film really.

Yes, I read that it's because Powhatan would have been married to more women besides Pocahontas' mother that she was cut from the film. At this point Disney had gotten a lot of flack for not having mothers in their films (never minding The Lion King) so this was their attempt to address those concerns. Personally, I think they could have kept her mother because it's not like they need to show the other people in Pocahontas' life. The final film still doesn't showcase any of her multiple brothers and sisters. I remember Jasmine's mother gets referenced in her film, but I don't think Ariel or Belle's mothers ever get mentioned. I think Pocahontas' mother gets multiple references because her spirit is supposed to be the wind/leaves that constantly blow around the film in dramatic moments.

I'm assuming that maybe they wanted Aladdin to be more of an adventure/action-oriented TV series hence the lack of songs which would slow all that down.

I believe IMDB when it says that Hunchback was completed in 1997 because not only is it more likely that the original cast would all return right after the original film, but also because the animation is too terrible to have come out in the 2000s.

I'm glad you liked the Winnie the Pooh series as well. I did see the Hercules one, but I didn't care how it didn't fit into the canon of the original film. I did like Cassandra although not so much Hercules' other friend, whose name escapes me (the one with the crazy hair). I never liked the depiction of the Olympians in the film so the show featuring more of them didn't particularly appeal to me but I liked the celebrity guest-stars like Jennifer Aniston. I'm assuming this was back when she was dating Tate Donovan (Hercules' voice actor).

I don't remember TLK 1 1/2 very much because I only saw it once, but I do remember it being quite funny. I don't consider it canon but it's enjoyable on its own the way that Timon and Pumbaa are weaved into the story. I love the intro/ending with the theater where all the Disney characters are screening the movie.

You're right that The Return of Jafar is darker than the original film, especially with the near beheading scene (and Jafar disguised as Jasmine really creeped me out). I like the songs in BATB: The Enchanted Christmas, but I didn't care for the new characters. Angelique was fine and I didn't mind Forte although his design was unnerving, but I didn't care for Fife. He was irritating for me. I also found it hard to believe that Forte was supposed to have existed in the background for the original film and also that he's been manipulating the Beast all this time. I always scoff at accusations about Belle suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, but you could get some real evidence from this film and even more from the next sequel, Belle's Magical World.

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

Fair enough.


Me neither. So it was just like Belle, though, since Belle was supposed to have a little sister as well. I know she was scrapped in order to stress Belle's independence, but I think it would've been nice to see a little sister for her.

Btw, what are your thoughts about the name change from Maddie to Tiana?


Fair enough. But the emphasis was on her deceased father. One thing that I dislike about Lady Juliana, is how despite that she becomes defensive at the beginning, acts passively afterwards. Even in the climax, she did very little to contribute.


Sure.


I understand why The Lion King is more fun, yet I think that Bambi can be fun at times as well. Bambi is definitively more artistic, but truth to be told, I think Bambi possesses moments of genuine charm, more than TLK. I remember Bambi being re-released theatrically here in Norway in the early nineties and was lucky enough to see it. And being completely mesmerized by it.
The funny thing is that I wanted Disney to do a Bambi-esque story with lions (since Bambi is the king of the forest, it made sense to make a premise where lions were the rulers) and my dreams came true. Although The Lion King is still not a carbon copy of Bambi[/i] and clearly made with a contemporary audience in mind, since The Lion King is often labeled for "being Bambi with a plot.". One particular difference is the dealing of both death scenes and how different Bambi and Simba are (at least as cubs).


Really? I didn't know.

I know that some of his songs were used in the Mulan Jr. show. You could tell his influence. Though I've always wondered how Menken would've tackle an Asian-themed setting.


Haha! I never hated Trashin the Camp, though I understand why people do, since it feels shoehorned in and never adds something to the story. But I thought it was fun on it's own right.

Speaking of which, I remember wanting Disney to do Tarzan as well, but my dream came true about four years later after my wish . It was during the time when Pocahontas came out that I wanted Disney to adapt Tarzan (perhaps due to both sharing similar premises about wild life vs. civilization and romance between those two worlds). And fortunately they did


One of those, actually. But I dunno why he's always in Agrabah.


Really? I didn't know about the latter. What both have in common is having a pale lead I know that they agreed to do Hercules in order to make Treasure Planet. Though a Treasure Island-setting in space may sound like a little odd, to say it least, though they've managed to make it work in the movie. I know they rejected Swan Lake for your aforementioned reasons, but I know that Mike Gabriel and Joe Grant were working on their own treatment of it, before rejecting it to Pocahontas.


Sinbad was just meh in my opinion. Not awful, because it had it's moments, but overall it wasn't great or memorable. I was pondering about the change of setting myself, since none of the characters seemed Middle Eastern and even the Greek setting seemed like a generic mix of several cultures. Eris was a good villain, though (the second job Pfeiffer did for DreamWorks, since she voiced Tzipporah in The Prince of Egypt). Otherwise, the story was trite, predictable and not particularly tidy, the dynamic between Sinbad and Marina uninspired (and a little contrived feminism was thrown in at her) and the score just meh.

What are your thoughts about the other hand drawn animated features from DreamWorks?


Okay.


To quote the great Maui: You're welcome. The thing is that people find Jane and Meg comparable due to having similar features (and having the same lead animator), but I still find them different. What's notable is that Ken Duncan has a tendency to design his female characters as different than the standard, beautiful Disney heroine. They look distinctive and have narrow features.


True, but her relationship with Clopin is barely shown in the actual film, nor the sequel.


True, but haven't we discussed this issue before?


I personally didn't mind it, despite that it was shoehorned in. But I liked it, despite that it was just brief. I didn't like the backstory of Beast having a cruel father, which really felt contrived in my opinion.


At least Ariel's mother gets mentioned once in the series by Triton, the one where Arista and Ariel fights and work together.

And yeah, the film never adresses to show Pocahontas' multiple siblings (which The Three Commentears jokes about in their commentary for the film). However, I wouldn't mind seeing a mother for Pocahontas, since I think it would've definitively suited her to have a mother. Speaking of your aforementioned rant about mothers, the thing is that though Mulan's mother's role is limited, at least she was made with a purpose, to reflect her traditional role as a Chinese woman and wife. But either way, Fa Li could've been cut without affecting the narrative.


Fair enough


Hahahaha, well said! I remember seeing an behind-the-scenes featurette of Aladdin & The King of Thieves when it was released and they announced that Hunchback II was in the making. So I guess they must have made it soon.


To be honest, I thought the Hercules show was somewhat entertaining, but still not as memorable as other Disney shows that were based on movies. It was fun and breezy, yet it messed with continuity a bit. I didn't hate the aforementioned friend as the rest of people did, but I felt that the animation style was crude, even for a DC series. Besides, if Herc is a teenager, why having Tate Donovan voicing him, when Josh Keaton did? (yes, I know it may be because of the transition, but still) And yes, I know that Jennifer Aniston dated Tate at the time


I liked TLK 1 1/2 a lot and thought it was fun and clever. However, I wonder if it would've benefited more being released close to it's predecessor. However, I shall admit that some of the jokes are a little off-putting, as the snail joke, the farts and especially joking with the stampede when Mufasa is dying off-screen. However, I liked that it set up Timon and Pumbaa's dynamic in a satisfying way and I liked the new songs. Though I would've rather preferred an actual continuation to the Pride Rock universe, now that Kiara and Kovu grew up.


I've never seen Belle's Magical World and nor am I planning to. BATB: The Enchanted Christmas is a mixed bag for me, since while I enjoy the songs, it serves a lazy fanfiction that is just shoehorned in while messing with the continuity. It's cute at times, yet also overall mediocre. The reason for asking was due to it being one of the earlier cheapquels.

I liked the idea of Belle having a little sister but I don't think it would have fit in the final film version we got. It worked better in the earlier draft since Belle's family had more of a focus with her wicked Aunt Marguerite.

I wasn't really a fan of the name change. Tiana is more unique but it's also a very modern name which doesn't fit the 1920s time period. On top of that, I wasn't fond of the reasoning behind the name change. I have a good friend named Madison who is black and she goes by Maddie, so it irks me that some people might say that the name she uses for herself is racist. And from what I remember, Maddie was supposed to be short for Madeleine which is a gorgeous name imo and they could have just always referred to her as Madeleine rather than shorten it to Maddy.

I haven't seen The Quest for Camelot in a long time so I don't remember that much of it, but I do remember that Lady Juliana ends up just playing the role of prisoner for the rest of the film. Which I guess isn't too surprising.

I find the death scene in Bambi to be more tragic than The Lion King. I'm not sure why but maybe because I despise hunting and so I found it to be a senseless death whereas Scar is theatrical enough, that a small part of me is almost rooting for him to win just to continue to see him onscreen. As such, Bambi is a movie that I don't like watching very often because the entire time, I'm basically just on the edge of my seat waiting for that most iconic and infamous scene. That's great though for you that you always wanted to see a lion version of Bambit and not only did you get it, but it was the most successful animated movie for quite some time. No wonder it's your favorite!

If you Google search Stephen Schwartz with Mulan you can find some different links that reflect on his departure from Disney then. Written in Stone comes from Stephen Schwartz. I think all the other "new" songs in Mulan Jr. are just variations and reprises of the film's songs and maybe some from Mulan II. If the Middle East counts as Asian, then we did get Aladdin from Menken, plus the one song written for the Sindbad ride in Tokyo.

I've always felt that Pocahontas and Tarzan had many parallels between the two. When I saw the World of Color show at California Adventure, they have a montage between Disney couples and there's a nice scene where we see Tarzan and Jane's hands touching just as Pocahontas and John Smith first join hands. You seem to have a prophetic manner in predicting Disney films. Might I be able to ask you to wish for a proper hand-drawn version of Swan Lake or Dracula lol? I know that after Tarzan, Disney was interested in adapting Frankenstein since they felt that with one success, they could now delve into mature literary classics that have the advantage of being beloved on screen. I think Fox's animation department was also inspired because Don Bluth was supposed to work on Dracula after Titan A.E. I believe. I really wish we could have gotten that although there's lovely fanart of a Disney version of Dracula online that follows the original book.

As you know, Musker and Clements really wanted to make Treasure Planet when they were denied and told that they had to make one more hit for Disney before they could start their dream project. Out of the choices they were given, Hercules appealed most to them because they felt it could translate into a superhero, comic book type adventure, the reasoning behind this being that Hercules was the superhero of Ancient Greek and all modern day superheroes hearken back to him in some way. Treasure Planet was also a comic book style adventure so Hercules was more similar to that compared to the other projects they were given like Swan Lake and Sinbad. I've seen concept art of Swan Lake that was posted on this forum and I wish we could have seen that project come to fruition. It's one of my favorite fairy tales and I think it would translate well to the screen.

I forgot that Pfeiffer was in The Prince of Egypt as well. Too bad she never did any voicework for Disney. I'm not the biggest fan of Dreamworks' 2D animation films. The Road to El Dorado is the one I've seen the most but it's really not that great of a movie and I didn't particularly care for any of the characters or songs. The Prince of Egypt is a movie that I feel I should love but for some reason I don't. Which is ironic, since I love Hunchback, but maybe because it's based on a real story I feel that I lose the fantasy in it. At least Pocahontas and Anastasia, despite being based on historical figures, are essentially just the fairy tale versions of history. There's just something too real for my taste in The Prince of Egypt so it's a difficult film for me to want to watch. I guess I've really always preferred the more fantastical stories like legends, fairy tales, folklore, myths, as well as novel adaptations.

I agree that although Jane and Meg have similar features, they are also very different in ways as well. One doesn't come off as a cheap rip-off of the other (unlike Rapunzel with Anna, Elsa, Honey Lemon, and even Moana). I love Jane's design a lot. I like Meg too but like all the characters in Hercules, she comes off as too caricaturized for my taste.

I meant that Clopin is usually made into Esmeralda's adopted father in some adaptations of the novel like the other film versions or I think the ballet. There's no evidence towards that in the Disney movie but I think one of the Disney storybooks at the time did make him out to be her caretaker since she was orphaned. We never really see Esmeralda interact with any of the Roma, except for her introduction scene when she's dancing with them, but otherwise I always wondered why she seemed so remote from them.

I can't remember discussing Meg's background, but if you remember it, then we likely did.

I hated the Beast's backstory. I was really not a fan of the cruel father storyline. These days, it seems as though every antagonist has to have some tragic backstory to make us feel for them. It's really contrived as you said and panders way too much to the audience. This was the change that I was most annoyed with and like you, Belle's backstory with her mother didn't annoy me as much. I wasn't a fan of it but it really is so inconsequential so it's easy to overlook.

Pocahontas' mother could easily replace Grandmother Willow, but at the same time, Grandmother Willow provided a place of refuge for Pocahontas and John Smith to escape to. An actual mother would have been difficult to fit into that role because she'd always be in the village. I guess she could give Pocahontas the advice to go to the middle of the river, since in the song Pocahontas says that its her mother who told her that. You're right that Fa Li does have that purpose in Mulan and I'm glad they kept her, because somehow it would feel weird if Mulan didn't have a complete family unit, especially since she's in the original poem and I think all (or at least most) of the various Mulan legends over generations.

Then that Aladdin and the King of Thieves featurette confirms that Hunchback II was made in the late 90s, which doesn't come as much of a shocker to me. It certainly explains the lackluster animation although I'm surprised that Hunchback was the next choice for a sequel after Aladdin. I'd expect Beauty and the Beast or The Lion King to be the very next. Although they put a lot more effort in The Lion King sequel so it's possible they had already been working on that one for a while.

The animation for Hercules was crude but since I'm not a fan of the animation in the original film either, it didn't seem like that big of a jump to me. I'm surprised that Tate Donovan still voiced his character in the TV series because I'm sure he would cost more than Josh Keaton. Unless I'm overestimating Tate Donovan's star power in the 90s lol.

Perhaps The Lion Guard will spin-off a sequel that shows Simba's cubs all grown up and we can see continued adventures of Kiara and Kovu or their children.

I like to just acknowledge the songs in BATB: The Enchanted Christmas while ignoring the rest of the movie. Haha, you never know, Belle's Magical World might be the best movie you've never seen. You don't know what you're missing here haha. Actually if you didn't mind Cinderella II very much, you'll probably not have major issues with Belle's Magical World since it was also a scrapped TV series that had several episodes weaved together. The main reason I liked it was because they gave the Feather Duster a name (Fifi) and she had one entire episode that really focused on her. Wish we could have seen one with the Wardrobe.

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

I like the name Tiana, yet I don't see anything wrong with the name Maddie. But if it's enough to keep the naysayers stop whining, then fine. Disney were truly under pressure under The Princess and the Frog, since even the title was changed from The Frog Princess.


To be honest, I liked The Quest for Camelot a lot when I saw it initially, but later viewings have changed my mind. Yet I don't despise the film completely, since it does have it's moments. It has a likable heroine, a couple of good songs and it has a nice visuals (at least sometimes). However, I'm not such a fan of Devon and Cornwall, which were dreadfully annoying, which was the same that could be said about the rest of the comedy, as well as the sappy ballads.


To be honest, I think it's unfair that Bambi gets mostly labeled for that brief scene, when the movie overall possesses more qualities. But I guess it's after all fair, since it is a tragic moment and something that has traumatized children for life, despite how it deals with it in a non-graphic way. True that Bambi gets praise for it's other qualities, but I find it somewhat unfair that Bambi is automatically labeled for that moment.

And to comprare those scenes between Bambi and The Lion King, I find both deaths traumatizing, but I guess that I find Mufasa's death more harrowing due to it being so overt and traumatizing, because it's actually shown. I remember even shedding a few tears when it happened the first time I saw the movie, something that I never did with [i]Bambi (and no, don't call me cold hearted, the death still gets me, but still). While ]Bambi it's just a random moment that it's never mentioned later, at least TLK centers around it and makes it an important plotpoint.

I know there are several people who compares the shooting of Tod's mom in The Fox and the Hound the same way, but frankly it's less traumatizing, since Tod is (obviously unaware) about the mother actually being his mother (which is clearly shown)


Haha! It certainly was my favorite, because I had outgrown Bambi when I saw The Lion King theatrically (yes, I was lucky to see it theatrically when it was released here in Norway, despite having been obsessed on Bambi several months priorly ). To be honest, TLK used to be one of my favorites, but to be honest, I find the film a little too pretentious and po-faced at times. But I still have a soft spot for it nonetheless.


Okay, I'll do it. But I don't find Schwartz' songs from Mulan to be that memorable, to be honest.


Haha! It's really synergetic how you mention that, since Pocahontas has a brief moment where our lovebirds compare hands the same way that Tarzan and Jane does. No wonder why people has criticized Disney for being derivative (though they've always have, it was defintitively more evident in the nineties). As for that moment itself, I remember seeing actually merchandise for Pocahontas where she and John Smith compared hands, as well as Tarzan and Jane did! But at least in Tarzan it's a visual motif where it's used more than once.
I've always labeled Tarzan as an amalgam of The Lion King and Pocahontas, for quite obvious reasons. TLK because of it's African setting and coming of age story, whereas Pocahontas due to it's romance between a civilized and "savage" and a conflict between two worlds. What's even more notable is that Pocahontas used the tagline "Two different worlds" just as an marketing device, whereas in Tarzan the phrase "Two Worlds" is the main signature of a song, despite how both movies deals with a clash of two worlds. However, it's clear that Tarzan handles the language barrier more realistically than Pocahontas does, despite the latter having a more realistic setting.

However, due to my aforementioned nods, I find it funny how Tarzan deliberately rip offs Bambi's first introduction so overtly


I know, right? I'm an oracle

It was pretty easy to predict that Frozen was going to be shaped after Tangled when the latter movie turned to be a huge success. It makes you wonder how the movie would've been influenced if The Princess and the Frog was a huge success. Btw, I've always found it odd that Walt himself never adapted the Rapunzel fairytale, since it's a brief and slim fairytale and could've definitively fit the mold of being a straight forward adaptation of the story (despite that it probably would've been another anti-feminist movie ).


I've wouldn't mind to see a Disney version of The Swan Lake. But Dracula? Nah. I've never liked Dracula.


That really makes Hercules the perfect project from both Musker and Clements and for animation. Since animation is usually about superheroes. It's funny to think that despite that Disney animated features are about heroism, Hercules is about the process of actually becoming a hero. Yet it's fair to say that Hercules still isn't really ideal for animation in the other way, due to how the content from the myths are not appliable for Disney animation.

However, it's easy to see the Musker and Clements components in Hercules, since it's awfully derivative from both The Little Mermaid and Aladdin. Zeus resembles King Triton and Hades could've definitively been labeled as a male version of Ursula. Our dear Herc and Phil has an argument that is strikingly reminiscent of the one of Aladdin and the Genie and let's not forget the pop culture references in Hercules. I could go on and on forever Even The Princess and the Frog and Moana recycles those tropes blatantly, but let's not go there, shall we?


But she still could


To be honest, I like DreamWorks entries into hand drawn animation realm, but each of them were flawed in their own way. The Prince of Egypt was epic and had it's moments, but was a little too po-faced and gloomy at times (which was the reasons for not liking the film at all when I first saw it initially and while it fortunately grew on me, it's still quite dramatically uneven and jarringly so). The Road to El Dorado was at least fun and breezy, but suffered from a bad script and was frankly also a little generic at times. Spirit Stallion of the Cimarron was cute and captivating, but was too sappy at the end. And there's no need to repeat myself about Sinbad At least early DreamWorks shall have genuine credit for their ambition and for actually trying to break the mold, yet they've could've done it more.


Well said. That's certainly true in Anastasia's case, since it is about royalty after all. Had it been done a few years ago (by Disney), she would've been tailored to blend in the Princess franchise. At least Pocahontas took more actual risks than Anastasia, by having an unhappy ending.

Just wondering, what are your thoughts about that Disney used the Princess franchise to introduce their upcoming Princesses?


Funny how you menton Honey Lemon, because many people on this board yelled that she was a Rapunzel rip off. And yes, I know that even Moana was compared to her (despite that I've shied away from that comparison). It seems like Rapunzel set the mold for the following Disney Princesses, since every one that followed her has been compared to her.

I like actually the desings for most of the characters in Hercules. Besides Meg. I'm not so fond of Jane's design, to be honest. I find her to be a Plain Jane (no pun intended )


That's exactly the reason for why I didn't like the Beast's backstory. It seemed like it's a trend to depict tragic heroes with a tragic backstory nowadays to gain more sympathy for them. However, regardless of it's contrivance, it's still bold to have Disney make a parent deliberately cruel, due to how Disney usually are labeled for their squeaky-clean brand and components (yes, I know a cruel parent has existed before, with Zira, but she was after all a villainness).


To be honest, I liked Grandmother Willow and thought she was fun in her own way. At least we got to see a Grandmotherly figure. At least we got to see a Disney heroine have a grandmotherly figure, which was new at the time (if I remember correctly)


To be honest, I remember being dismayed by the animation of Hercules when I saw the trailer, but for some reason I didn't when I saw the movie theatrically. When I saw it on VHS, I was an early teen and discovering bad animation, so I could see that Hercules had some scenes where the animation was just plain crude.


To be honest, what irks me with The Lion Guard is how it messes up the continutiy already established with Simba's Pride. When Simba's Pride was criticized for not being canon with Kopa. I think we've discussed The Lion Guard before, haven't we?


What really irks me with the BATB-midquels is how they take place during the time when Belle is taken prison under Beast's time as a Beast. I guess the creators didn't found it compelling to actually continue the universe, but why actually not making an actual continuation? I know there were discussions about making a sequel to the live action version of BATB, but if so, please continue the story.

There were so many changes from the original concept for The Frog Princess to the final product of TPATF, that's its crazy. I don't blame Disney for being so secretive with their films now.

What surprised me most about The Quest for Camelot is that it's based off of a book but the book is almost nothing like the movie. The book is about two sisters I believe. I read that originally the film was supposed to be more serious and epic, so maybe it was more like the book.

To be honest, I think most people really just remember Bambi these days for the one scene. You're right though that Bambi just sort of ignores the death scene and it's never brought up again unlike The Lion King. I completely forgot about The Fox and the Hound (and I doubt I'm the only one lol). It's a good thing the movie didn't follow the book otherwise we'd get half a dozen more deaths before the credits would roll lol.

That's funny that you think The Lion King can be pretentious at times since most people complained that its successor, Pocahontas, was riddled with this problem.

You don't like Written in Stone? I quite like it myself, as much as I like Reflection.

It's a pity there really isn't much Pocahontas merchandise anymore and there's absolutely none for Tarzan. I also see Tarzan as being a sort of mix between The Lion King and Pocahontas. Another commonality between The Lion King and Tarzan as that both films got a famous and acclaimed musical artist to do the songs. I remember a lot of people saying that they were glad Tarzan didn't go the Pocahontas route when it came to Tarzan learning English. Magic realism works in Pocahontas but not in Tarzan imo.

I'm curious to as to what Frozen/The Snow Queen would have looked like if TPATF had been the hit and not Tangled. As for Rapunzel, I think Walt had it on his list of stories to adapt but either he didn't get to it or he just couldn't find much to do with it. I'm guessing after Sleeping Beauty "flopped," there wasn't much interest in making another fairy tale so soon.

Mythology works fine for short segments like the Fantasia one but I agree that it isn't well suited for a full-fledged film. The Hercules myth anyway since there are some cleaner myths out there like Jason and the Argonauts or Perseus. Hercules is difficult to adapt just because of how the character is brought into being and then the main villain(ess) in his story, not to mention the Labours he is most famous for being a result of the murder of his wife and children.

The past Musker and Clements films definitely parallel Hercules. Zeus I think was based more off the one seen in Fantasia so the King Triton resemblance might be a coincidence, but I agree with all the rest. Phil especially with the Genie. I'm guessing that Meg not being a princess who is meant to be married to Hercules if he saves Thebes from the monsters was done to keep the plotline from being almost exactly like Aladdin and Jasmine's.

Pfeiffer certainly could but I don't think there is any animated project of Disney's that I am especially looking forward to at this point anyway.

I forgot about Spirit. I did watch that movie once but I have almost no memory of it. I was never a fan of horses so the film didn't do anything for me even though a friend of mine loved it because she was obsessed with horses. Like you, I do have to give Dreamworks props for going outside of the box for their 2D animated features, at least most of them.

The unhappy ending for Pocahontas was done just in the hopes that it would lead to an Oscar nomination lol and we all know how that turned out. However, Pocahontas has one of my favorite endings of any Disney movie. I love Anastasia's ending as well and am glad that it isn't unhappy because the musical one is a bit more bittersweet. I'm sure with the Fox deal that Anastasia will be promoted by Disney, perhaps not as an official Disney Princess, but she'll get some sort of spotlight on her.

I'm not really a fan of the idea of a Disney Princess movie. I liked how it was in Walt's era or even the 90s when there were fairy tale films but not necessarily Disney Princess films. Enchanted could be considered the first Disney Princess film but the fact that Giselle doesn't become a Disney Princess I think saves it from that status. This, and the fact that the film was created not for the purpose of adding a princess to the franchise but to be a Shrek type comedy, although luckily the final product is a more a tribute to classic Disney than a parody. TPATF is the first one that is shamelessly created just to add a princess to the DP franchise and while it worked at first, it hasn't aged well. Tangled at least had better intentions since Rapunzel was first worked on at Disney since the late 90s, but the final product is just as shameless about adding another princess to the franchise as TPATF was and it has even less of a reason since there's no added diversity from this film.

Yeah, it's unfortunate that all the heroines since Rapunzel not only resemble her physically but also in personality. The 90s heroines were a lot more diverse in looks and character.

I wouldn't call Jane Disney's most beautiful female character, and she'd probably rank below most of the princesses for me, but I still think she's quite pretty. Her looks suits her quirky personality imo.

I don't know if I would call Disney making the Beast's father evil being particularly bold. Besides the fact that he has little to no screentime, Disney already has a reputation for evil parents of sorts. Besides the obvious stepmothers, lots of people aren't fans of King Triton for how he dealt with Ariel in TLM and call him abusive. I've heard slightly lesser complaints about Fa Zhou in Mulan. Then there's Kerchak in Tarzan even though he reforms by the end. And of course Jim's absent father in Treasure Planet, which imo was a bold choice.

I like Grandmother Willow as well although I always found it odd that Disney didn't find talking animals believable but a talking tree was ok. It makes me wonder why they never gave Ariel a grandmother in TLM but I guess they wanted her to feel isolated in her dream of being a human and having a grandmother around would make her less likely to go to Ursula.

The Hydra scene in Hercules has not aged well at all. In fact, it didn't even look good when the movie was first released. Even as a kid, this scene always stood out to me because of how jarring the contrast was. I never had issues with the ballroom scene in BATB or Aladdin's escape from the Cave of Wonders, or even the music box in Anastasia (I've heard people complain about all these things lately), but that Hydra scene always took me out of the movie.

I don't remember if we talked about The Lion Guard before and it's not something I usually talk about since I haven't been interested enough to see any of it. I'm glad that they did reintegrate Kovu and Kiara in the franchise to keep them from being completely forgotten but like you, I wasn't a fan of how shoddy the continuity is. And yes, Kopa just makes things even worse. I personally am not a fan of the theory that Zira killed him though.

BATB: The Enchanted Christmas was supposed to be a direct sequel but they felt that no one would care for the enchanted objects in their human forms which is why it became a midquel. I for one would love to see more of the human servants, especially since we never really get to see Wardrobe and Chef Bouche, although the former (and maybe the latter as well) can be seen in the crowd when Belle and the prince are dancing in the ballroom at the end (the part with the reused animation from Sleeping Beauty).

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

The controversy around TPATF was due to it's centering about African Americans. And now that you say it, I've noticed Disney's current secretive policy with launching information about their films before their releases as well! I remember there were a tons of information and leaks about TPATF prior to it's release, whereas for Tangled you saw a different route! I've used to think that it could've been due to our current era of social medias, but you could've be right. For me that grew in the nineties and early 2000's, I remember seeing the fan sites of certain Disney films being constantly updated with new pictures of each following release, which is something that I miss, to be honest.


One word; Disney route


True, but I think The Lion King and Pocahontas are pretentious in different ways. Though The Lion King has comedy, it's overall quite serious. Besides, despite the criticism Pocahontas gets for being serious, I think it integrates comedy better than people give it credit for. I know certain reviewers didn't like the comedy, but it's remarkable that Pocahontas gets little credits for it's few wisecraks it actually has. Besides, let's not forget that the following year would have Hunchback, that would delinate drama and comedy more blatantly than ever before.


I don't dislike it, I just don't care for it.


Funny, right? Due to how the creators of Pocahontas desperately craved for realism, whereas Tarzan, who at least has some of degree of realism, deals with the language barrier realistically. But to be fair, at least Tarzan handles the issue better, due to how Tarzan and the animals are able to communicate to each other in their own presence, not infront of the other humans. But that issue was thrown away in the The Legend of Tarzan series


Probably it would've taken the Revival components, cause let's face it; The roadtrip and mismatched couple trope was from TPATF. But at least I guess they've wouldn't have made Frozen too much like Tangled, I guess. Tangled and Frozen are so derivative that it would be easy to claim that Sven was a ripoff of Maximus, just another spieces


True. Remember that Walt's interest in animation was lesser during his late years, but he cited his interest in Beauty and the Beast, actually. Besides, if we've gotten Rapunzel during Walt's time, I guess it would've been closer to the original source material, don't you think?
Besides, have you noticed that many people compare Tangled to BATB?


True. Speaking of which, I wonder if Disney is ever going to adapt mythology from other countries, as Norse or Scottish mythology. I know they were considering the former when they looked for Hercules.


Had Hercules been released during the peak of the Princess franchise, Megara would've definitively been a Princess. Besides, it's notable how she's gotten the nickname Meg, probably due to make the movie hip and contemporary.


Great minds think alike! At least The Prince of Egypt was a bold decision, yet I think they've could've been bolder about it. I think the movie could've benefited from not being a musical. At least Antz and Shrek took risks that actually payed off.


At least Disney shall have credit for managing to pull it off and fulfill it. Though of course it has made some naysayers whine about how saving Smith by sailing him back to England was a good choice, due to it's logical reasons. But at least we have a Romeo and Juliet-premise where the lead doesn't actually die. But it's a sad moment, indeed, cause Farewell is one of the saddest pieces of music I've ever heard.


Anastasia's ending is somewhat bittersweet, yet happy, due to how Anastasia has gotten with her love interest. Wonder why they made that ending bittersweet. Besides, it's remarkable how Hercules and Anastasia shares in common a protagonist who gives up his/hers initial quest in order to be with the love interest (that cons him/her).

Who knows, perhaps Disney could snap Anastasia up and integrate her as a part of the franchise?


I don't mind it as much as the majority does, but overall it is a gimmick. To launch each Princess from an upcoming movie through their lineup. Btw, I really hope that Vanellope doesn't get officially included, since her royal title seems contrived.


The more I think about it, the more I realize that you're actually right. Despite that some reviewers complained about the heroines and heroes being similar during the Renaissance, at least there were some genuine variety.

Btw, what do you think of Tiana's personality/character?


To be honest, I remember finding Jane too quirky at first and therefore not liking her. But now she's grown on me. She's overall one of the most liked character in Tarzan.


Fair enough. Funny that you mention Fa Zhou, since I've rarely heard complaints about him. But I've pondered over the issue myself, due to him encouraging his daughter of hope and when the war comes, he turns a 180 degrees and oppresses her, like the rest of society does. Besides, I know the creative team struggled with the issue of why he never went after her, though he states why in the movie.

I've found Kerchak's turn at the very end somewhat contrived and shoehorned, to be honest. He should've come around when Tarzan killed Sabor, but doesn't aknowledge Tarzan at the very end. I think it could've reasonated more if Kerchak actually took Tarzan in during the murdering of Sabor, because it would've given them to have a certain dynamic before Kerchak gets killed. It would've made that moment even more harrowing and devastating, due to them already having a dynamic, cause there barely is one at the very end.


It's something that has made the naysayers whine, but at least the Grandmother Willow idea is inspired, since it's taken from Native American folklore.


I know, right? But that's due to how it stands and sticks out! I remember getting at a certain age where I could tell when The Cave of Wonders was CGI before seeing Hercules, but the Hydra scene is especially notable due to how obvious of a CGI character Hydra is! Of course you can see obvious non-blend of CGI and handdrawn, but the Hydra sequence is especially an example of bad CGI. Since you've mentioned Anastasia, the CGI sticks out in that as well, but not as much as in Hercules. And several people thinks so, too, since I've heard a lot of complaints over that scene (and some praise of Tarzan's integration of CGI and hand drawn).
Besides, since we're talking about Hercules' visuals, I wasn't particularly fond of it's color palette. Often it's quite visually dark.


I think we have talked about The Lion Guard before. Either way, I wished that they actually included Kopa. Is it so hard to be canon?


Fair enough, but they've could've made another spell to enchant the castle, haha

Sorry for the late response. It must have been nice growing up seeing all the information out there for upcoming Disney films. I do remember Movie Surfers for the early 2000s films (and I think they were around for the late 90s films as well) but something like that doesn't exist anymore either.

That's true, it wouldn't be a Disney knock-off if it didn't try to adapt a book the way Disney does.

I actually like the comedy that Pocahontas has, especially with Wiggins and Nakoma. I love Meeko, Flit, and Percy as well who tend to be the most criticized. Hunchback was slightly less successful imo. Clopin, Phoebus, and Djali were fine (even Esmeralda in her escape scene), but the gargoyles were ugh. Actually I liked Laverne and Victor was generally tolerable but it was Hugo who felt so out of place.

Ah, ok.

I watched so much of The Legend of Tarzan that it was jarring for me to go back to the real Tarzan film and remember that Terk and Tantor can't understand Jane and vice-versa.

You're right that TPATF had all the buddy comedy elements too. I prefer Sven over Maximus and although they're similar, I really can't stand Maximus. He's so overrated but not nearly as much as Pascal is.

Yes, I'm sure Walt's Rapunzel would have been more faithful. BATB was one that he also abandoned because he couldn't figure out what to do after Belle came to the castle. Yes, I've seen many people compare BATB and Tangled, mainly because of their ending scenes.

I've always wanted to see Wagner's Ring Cycle adapted, at least the tale of the Valkyrie Brunnhilde and her love story with Siegfried, the epic hero. Tam Lin would have nearly gotten us Scottish mythology if that had been adapted. I didn't realize Disney was looking at Norse or Scottish myths before they decided on Hercules. Do you have more information on that?

Not just Meg, but Herc and Phil as well. Although I don't blame Philoctetes being shortened to Phil lol. I suppose Aladdin was guilty of this as well since Genie called Aladdin "Al" but at least you can see the Genie doing that since he's a timeless being of sorts. Greek mythological characters don't really have that same excuse if they aren't gods and goddesses.

I'm not sure if The Prince of Egypt would be any better if it wasn't a musical. People seem to love the songs in the film and it's being adapted to Broadway now as well. I certainly think there's room for an animated Biblical film without songs, but I think it worked well for The Prince of Egypt. I've never seen Antz but I did love the first two Shrek films for quite some time, even more than Disney for the brief time that I felt I was too old for Disney lol. Didn't last long though.

Pocahontas was supposed to be the American version of Romeo and Juliet so the unhappy ending was inevitable, but I'm glad they didn't kill John Smith off. It's more bittersweet if he's still alive but thousands of miles away.

I didn't even think about how Anastasia and Hercules both have a similar ending in that respect. Funny how both came out the same year as well (the year of my birth actually). I'd love to see Anya as part of the Disney Princess franchise for as much as I love to bash the franchise, there's no doubt that it keeps the core characters beloved across the globe.

I don't want Vanellope to be an official Disney Princess either. I've already lost all my interest in Wreck-It Ralph 2 and will just be watching it because I feel obligated to at this point, not because I want to. I love how Disney felt they were being progresive by having Vanellope abdicate her title and become president instead, and now they've completely backtracked from that all for the sake of moolah.

There were some similarities between the 90s heroines as well, but they still had enough solid differences and generally their character designs were unique enough. I'm neutral on Tiana because there are things I like about her and things I don't. Mainly I love Anika Noni Rose, so most of my love for Tiana comes from her voice acting. I think Tiana's design is a bit generic though, especially her hair which is very boring. Disney Princesses usually have unique hair and out of all the princesses, Tiana probably has the most bland hairstyle. She's too much of a workaholic for my taste, not that I like the Naveen end of the spectrum either. I do like her dreams even though I think that making her want to be a chef alienated little girls who usually prefer princesses with vaguer dreams, not least because Tiana's goal also aged her. She reminds me more of Nani actually, a great Disney character but not one that necessarily works as a princess. I didn't care much for how her father was her driving force, which is why, like we discussed earlier, I wish they had put more emphasis on her mother or deleted little sister. I think the sister element would have been great (like Lilo & Stitch) and also beaten Frozen to the punch lol.

I liked Jane because of her quirks and because she was Disney's first comical heroine. Meg had snarky comments but Jane was the first one who you could laugh at, not just with. It's rare for the leading lady to ever be a comic in her film, especially with Disney leading ladies. I also like that she's interested in both the arts and sciences and I think she would have been a great role model as a Disney Princess.

Usually I don't see critics of Fa Zhou but recently I've seen a poster complain about him a lot so perhaps the hate is out there. I never realized that the creative team struggled with coming up with a reason for him not to follow Mulan. I never doubted the reason he gave in the film since it seemed logical enough, so I didn't realize it took them so long to come up with that.

To be fair, Kerchak does come around to Tarzan after he kills Sabor. He's ready to accept him right then and there but then the gunshot happens and that leads Tarzan to go explore where he meets the humans. The next time Tarzan and Kerchak interact with each other, it's when Kerchak sees the humans at camp so that pretty much destroys the pretty substantial progress made between the two. Finally, at the end, he's able to accept Tarzan as a human though, which he didn't when he fought Sabor. There, he was able to accept Tarzan as a legitimate heir because he was basically more gorilla than the other gorillas and proven to not be a very good human. So the real acceptance for who Tarzan is (both the biological human side and the familial gorilla side) only comes at the end.

I don't usually have issues with CGI elements in hand-drawn films, and most of the main examples I only noticed because other people referred to them. The Anastasia music box never bothered me. The only thing in Anastasia I did notice was the horse statue that Rasputin brings to life at the end, because the hair is still traditionally animated so that stands out, but otherwise it was really just the Hydra scene in Hercules that caught me off guard. Tarzan and Treasure Planet are both visual spectacles imo with their merging of CGI and hand drawn animation. Such a shame we couldn't get any other movie like that after.

Disney usually doesn't consider their books canon so I'm not surprised that Kopa isn't canon. The issues with the continuities of Kiara and Kovu make less sense. Either they should dismiss the sequel altogether for The Lion Guard, or they should make sure both fit together in perfect conjunction.

Lol, fair enough. Would you suggest that the prince be turned back into the Beast as well or just the servants into objects?

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey

I will never forgive you Kidding I can be as late as well, so I'll quote The Corrs; You're Forgiven, Not Forgotten


Yeah. My knowlegde about Movie Surfers were through YouTube, due to me being non-American. But it's a pity that Movie Surfers isn't as relevant anymore. It was at least good and entertaining. Too bad that the Movie Surfers episode about Simba's Pride haven't been released.


To be honest, I think the comedy between the animals works. It does stick a little out, but at least the animals are genuinely funny, despite how criticized they are. At least their comedy is not different than from the usual Disney route, since it's a semi-slapstick mode that Disney has done before with their other films. I was lucky enough to see Pocahontas twice theatrically and the audiences laughed out loud with the comedy. Which is more than I could say about The Lion King, where the audience barely chuckled by the jokes.

To be honest, I love Meeko, because he's fun and endearing. At least his conflict with Percy served an actual purpose, whereas Flit was just useless and served as a third wheel (I know that his purpose was to be a reflection of our heroines serious side, but honestly, he did nothing to progress the plot). To be honest, I'm lesser fond of Percy and Flit, due to them both being unlikable in their own way. I wasn't particularly fan of Nakoma, due to me finding her prissy and unlikable, but Wiggins works. And just to be said, I didn't hate Nakoma for what she did.
Btw, I noticed that Disney made a huge deal about the non-speaking ability of the animals of Pocahontas, when in reality it wasn't fair. Since Pocahontas was far from the first film to do so, but both critics and marketing made it look like it was the first Disney film where the animals didn't talked.


Agreed. In my childhood I actually enjoyed the Gargoyles due to their wacky and loony personalities, which means that they did what they were supposed to; Entertaining the children. However, my teenage and adult years have made me realize how jarring and out of place they are. But personally I felt the soldiers were even more jarring and annoying during their comedic phases (especially with their Goofy yells).
I agree that Djali was fine. He served the same purpose as the usual Disney sidekick, but at least his inclusion made sense, due to him being from the novel (of course the Gargoyles also were, but they weren't alive in the novel ). I remember looking forward to see Hunchback because of Djali, hahaha! Since I found him adorable by the trailers and such. Phoebus and Clopin were fine, though, despite that the former was more comedic than the latter.


True, but it makes more sense to have the animals and humans communicating in a series than in a movie.


Oh, I agree about Maximus! I like his desing, but he's overall very overrated. But I disagree about Pascal, because I adore him. What's funny is that Pascal even sounds like a dinosaur I thought it was somewhat odd to have a Chameleon in a European fairy tale, but at least Pascal works. I know the creators didn't wanted a sidekick for Rapunzel, but they made one.

Btw, do you remember that when Tangled came out, there were some talks about the look of the film being more painterly and not just obvious CGI?


True. I know that Walt was considering making The Little Mermaid as a part of a Hans Christian Andersen biography, but according to The Legacy Collection CD, there were plans to do a full-length version of Mermaid as well. But I haven't found any proofs for those.


Yes, but I've even noticed that people compare them because of being similar in tone. At least the ending is comparable to of BATB, but it may be a shallow reading (though truth to be fair, people compare Tangled and Mermaid due to them both having a boat scene). I know we've talked about many people comparing Frozen to BATB, but at least people due to that because of their endings.


OK. Why not?


Well, there were some Norwegians articles about that, which I couldn't find. And when Hercules was released, a Norwegian movie show actually interviewed the directors about it.


Nice catch. At least it would've made less sense in Hercules than it was in Aladdin, but at least Hercules was deliberately made to be Americanized, so it works.


To be honest, I like most of the songs in The Prince of Egypt (especially All I Ever Wanted, Look Through Heavens Eyes and The Plagues, the latter that could've heard like it came from Hunchback), but at the time I still thought that perhaps The Prince of Egypt could've benefited more from not being a musical. But for all the risks Egypt took, at least Hunchback took more risks, in my opinion (I know many people compares those movies due to their religious tones)


Hahahaha, for me neither! I had a period when I was thirteen where I felt I was too old for Disney and even when I was twenty I felt I had grown from it. But those periods didn't last long, cause I got reaccquanited with my love from Disney when I turned twenty-one. Even in my teenage years I loved Disney and was determined to never grow up from it

You should see Antz. It's really good.


True, but it's still daring that Disney dared to pull it off, by releasing such a film that was in the height of their success. I know this was something that worried the crew (according to David Koenig's Mouse Under Glass, which is certainly a must-read for every Disney fan, especially those who loves Hunchback). I know many Disney fans consider the ending to The Fox and the Hound to be sad, yet I never thought of it that way. Just bitttersweet. Besides, despite how Pocahontas gets criticized for it's Disneyfication, they still followed the unhappy ending route. Wonder if Disney would ever make a film with an unhappy ending again.
And due to Pocahontas being a Romeo and Juliet-premise; People act like Disney themselves were the ones who invented the Romeo and Juliet-premise of the story, when in fact it's not.


Really? I turned thirteen that year, haha! So you can guess how old I am now


True, but even that would've made the naysayers whine. Perhaps Disney could've buy the rights to The Swan Princess and intergrate Odette into the franchise too


True. Though I've used to think that Esmeralda somewhat resembled Jasmine and later on I've thought that even Mulan resembled Jasmine. Though it may be shallow readings of mine.


Why did Tiana's goal also aged her?

I'm neutral to Tiana, but I think she's a fairly decent and passable character. I think Anika Noni Rose's voice complemented her. I did like her design, though, but just like you, I didn't liked her hairstyle. Her hair wasn't long enough (I like girls with long hair) and it was never untied. Otherwise, I liked that she was a workaholic, yet her arc (to enjoy life) was fairly traditional. What I didn't like about her, is how she treated Naveen when she first met him and that when she agrees to kiss him, it's for selfish reasons. I also found that her overall arc is somewhat muddled; She gets her cake and gets to eat it, too; Her arc is about learning about needs versus wants, whereas in the end, she gets it both ways. Yet one thing that I like about Tiana is that she's not a carbon copy of Rapunzel, Anna and Honey Lemon.
Speaking of which, have you noticed that the only Princesses of color to the Revival era were made by John Musker and Ron Clements?

Funny that you say that Tiana reminds you of Nani, since she does resemble Nani. However, I felt that in some concept arts that she even looks like Audrey Ramirez from Atlantis (if you remember her). I feel terrible to say this, but I thought Nani, in reality, just served as the mold as Lilo's worried nanny and really had little to no personality to distinguish her as being something more (at least Tiana had some sass, spunk and a personality, despite not being as memorable). However, I agree that their sisterly dynamic is far more superior to the sisters of Frozen, despite being more apart in age. If we're going to scrutnize it more, at least they both movies have a older, more subdued and serious sister and a quirkier and bubblier sister.


Fair enough, but I thought that Mulan was also a comical heroine. At least because she gets herself in funny situation. Despite how Tiana can be funny as well, as a frog.

I know that Jane used to be a part of the Princess franchise, but lately she was excluded. At least one good thing about the nineties heroines is that the late nineties actually made all the heroines commoners. Even Esmeralda was a part of the franchise, after later on being excluded.

Btw, don't you find it notable that Rapunzel, who wasn't a Princess in the original tale, is an actual Princess in the Disney version, whereas Tiana, who was a Princess in the original tales, isn't at first (and yes, I know the latter is due to the impossibility of Tiana being a Princess, but I find those changes to be a little amusing, to be honest).


Well, I used to dislike Fa Zhou of that reason, but I guess it's due to Chinese cultural norms. You should watch the Audio Commentary for Mulan.


Fair enough, but Kerchak's acceptance of Tarzan when he kills Sabor wasn't as overt as it is at the very end. Which is, like you said, is the true acceptance of Tarzan and Kerchak. I know it was a deliberate choice of the creative team, since they talk about it in the Audio Commentary.


Funny how you mention the Pegasus statue, since that's one that is obviously CGI (another cue from Hercules )). In Anastasia the CGI stands out a lot.


Yeah, the Hydra scene is the most overt scene where the CGI stands out, but I've never liked how visually dark and generic-looking the scene overall is. However, the rest of the CGI blends fine, even the clouds in Mount Olympus.


I think Tarzan is a prime example of CGI that perfectly blends with the hand drawn, despite how obvious the CGI elements in Tarzan are. Whereas Treasure Planet has a couple of moments where both mediums don't blend well (especially with the whales). But it was definitively notable in DreamWorks hand drawn movies, especially the later ones. And yeah, it's a shame that we couldn't get more movies like that.
If we're actually going to mention a couple of movies where the CGI almost looks like hand drawn, it must be Pocahontas and The Emperor's New Groove. With the exeception of Grandmother Willow, both movies has the CGI elements blending it so well that you wouldn't even question if they were CGI (I was surprised when I found that certain props in Pocahontas were CGI).


Fair enough, but what about the other theories for the cub's original name? Besides, I've heard that people claiming that Simba's Pride wasn't canon, due to it changing the gender of Simba's cub, which didn't made The Lion King's ending full circle. I know that Kiara's name was even changed. Remember the making off-featurette of Aladdin & The King of Thieves that I mentioned? It was announced then that her name would be Shani and that Zira's name would be Bianca. So I was surprised that the final movie didn't have those names, yet after doing some research, they were supposed to be named those names.

However, if there's one thing that I genuinely appreciate about Simba's Pride, is that it shows that Simba is still haunted by the trauma from Scar. It certainly made it more realistic.


Sure, why not? It would've been at least a legit reason for having them going to their former selves again.

Btw, did you like The Princess and the Frog?

Lol, I never forget either so we are clearly a kindred spirit.

I forgot that since you aren't American, you wouldn't have gotten Movie Surfers. I didn't realize they had an unreleased episode for Simba's Pride. Any reason why it was never released?

I've actually heard several times now stories about how people didn't laugh at the jokes in The Lion King, but loved the comedy in Pocahontas during theaters. Unless, I've just seen your posts on the subject and assumed that multiple people have said something similar. I agree that Flit didn't really progress the plot and he doesn't really reflect Pocahontas' serious side imo, but I still quite liked him. He was cute and a good foil to Meeko. I liked Nakoma because it was nice to see Pocahontas have a friend her age. I've read on the Disney Wiki that Nakoma is actually a really popular character with a strong fanbase. I've never heard of this before and it surprises me a little but if it's true, I'm glad to hear it. For the most part, I don't think people hold Nakoma telling Kococum where Pocahontas is against her, because her heart was in the right place. I'm glad Disney didn't go with a plot of a jealous friend who is really after Kocoum herself. I didn't realize that there was such a big deal about Pocahontas having non-speaking animals parts. That's odd since so many Disney movies (including the very first one) were like that.

I can see your point about the soldiers in Hunchback. Personally the convict who keeps getting himself trapped bothered me more. Not really him per say but the fact that he says "dang it." Dang instead of damn really takes me out of the film and reminds me that I'm a 21st century spectator watching. I liked Djali a lot as well and I'm glad he/she was in the book originally. I've heard lots of stories about people who were kids when Hunchback came out and Djali was the character they loved most. A pity Djali isn't better remembered now.

I find Pascal so annoying but I know popular consensus is that he's one of the best Disney sidekicks ever. He's loyal, I'll give him that, and I can see the appeal, but he just irritates me. I think if I liked Rapunzel more, I'd be able to see why Pascal is so loyal to her and I'd probably like him a lot then. His relationship with Flynn didn't help since I wasn't a fan of Flynn either.

The original Glen Keane version of Rapunzel was meant to be more painterly but it ended up being too expensive and time-consuming so they went back to the regular CGI. I would have loved to have seen the painterly CGI though. Not surprised that it's been 8 years since Tangled came out and under Lasseter's regime, Disney has made no strides whatsoever in exploring new forms of CGI. The graphics are better and the visuals are more photorealistic, true, but to the eye of the average person, Tangled and Moana don't really look any different.

Kay Nielsen did the concept art for The Little Mermaid back when Walt was planning on adapting it. I think his art is for the full-length version, not the Hans Christian Andersen biopic.

When Tangled came out, I remember a lot of people were going on about the ending and how it ripped off Beauty and the Beast. It didn't bother me then because this was one of the few things that hearkened back to the original fairy tale. And yes, TLM and Tangled get compared because of the boat scenes a lot. Meanwhile I See the Light gets compared to A Whole New World as well, along with the Jasmine/Rapunzel and Aladdin/Flynn parallels.

From what I remember, Tam Lin was Roy Disney's pet project, and Michael Eisner canned it to spite him. I don't think it got far enough in development for any concept art to materialize, or at least, I haven't seen any.

Oh, that's cool that Disney was interested in Norse myths. The German epic I mentioned earlier (The Ring Cycle by Wagner) was basically just the Norse myths with some variations so I would have loved to have seen Disney's versions of Thor and Loki. A red-headed Loki who is actually Thor's blood brother and not adopted one.

I suppose The Prince of Egypt was daring but not as daring as Hunchback since Jewish/Christian/Muslim families have likely exposed their children to the tale of Moses so they're already familiar with all the dark and bleak elements. Whereas, Hunchback is more new material and on top of that, parents likely don't really teach their kids about sex at such a young age so Hunchback explored those mature themes as well.

I'll have to find Antz one day and give it a watch. I always took it as another Disney rip-off. Do you prefer it over A Bug's Life? I know a lot of people hate on A Bug's Life, but I really quite like it. It's very underrated imo.

I actually own David Koenig's "Mouse Under Glass" and it's one of my favorite Disney books. I especially love how The Black Cauldron is just entirely skipped lol. To be honest, I barely remember what I felt towards the ending of The Fox and the Hound. I don't think it was a movie I watched very often, let alone thought about. And yes, you're completely right that Pocahontas and John Smith were paired together long before Disney. There have been plays about their love story for the past hundred years in middle America.

You know my age now and I know yours lol. Like I said before, I'm sorta jealous of you because I would have loved to have grown up in the 90s so I could experience the height of Disney's promotion. I still believe the merchandise was better back then.

Richard Rich seems quite content with The Swan Princess franchise right now so I doubt he's interested in selling. I forgot what company owns the rights to The Swan Princess now, but they found that the old DVDs were consistent sellers, even as home video has been dying out, which is why the franchise was brought back, for better or for worse. I personally haven't seen any of the CGI films yet although I always plan to, just to see if I'm missing out on anything. Have you seen any of the new films?

Do you mean Esmeralda and Mulan resembled Jasmine physically or personality-wise?

Because generally the princesses all have very broad dreams of adventure and romance which is mostly associated with young girls, particularly teenagers, not that adult women don't have the same dreams. However, characters like Tiana and Nani were part of the labor force and their biggest aspirations were professional; Nani making enough to take care of Lilo like a guardian and Tiana opening up her own restaurant. I feel like most little kids really can't connect very much to Tiana's dream. There's a reason that one day they want to be an astronaut and the next day they want to be a firefighter, because it's all a game of pretend for them, and very few children actually realize then what a profession will really entail.

Tiana was the first princess whose hair never came down until Anna (unless you count her messy bedhair) and Elsa. I've heard some people complain about Tiana kissing Naveen for selfish reasons and "tricking" him into thinking she's a princess. This, and also that bayou scene where he's about to be eaten by an alligator and she basically only agrees to save his life if he'll help her with her restaurant. Her main pro is like you said, that she's not a Rapunzel clone (or I guess more appropriately, that Rapunzel and all the later heroines aren't Tiana clones). I actually didn't realize that the only POC princesses were both made by Musker and Clements. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yeah, I've seen the concept art of Tiana and I got some Audrey vibes as well. I think Tiana had a more youthful look in those, so it must have been back when she was Maddie or when her design hadn't been completely settled yet. I actually like Nani a lot. She has a sense of humor when she isn't weighed down by her situation and I liked how she and David could rely on each other. He genuinely cared for her and tried to help her get a job and never complained when she had to blow him off.

I suppose Mulan was comical, but more when she's masquerading as a man. It's interesting that you point out that Tiana was funny, but only as a frog. That goes with my point that generally attractive leading ladies aren't usually suited for humor. Mulan is mainly funny when she's disguised as a man and Tiana has to be an animal to be comical. Similarly enough, if you look at past Disney examples, you'll see that the traditionally feminine Maid Marian is like the other princesses, but Lady Cluck, the short and round character is the comic relief. Meanwhile, Charlotte who is more exagerrated in her features and more buxom is more comical than Tiana. It seems as though if a heroine is depicted as traditionally beautiful, she can't play the comic relief role. Even Terk ends up playing the typical comical sidekick and most people think she's a guy.

I remember when Esmeralda was a DP and I wish she still was. She really deserved to be in the lineup and I'm sure Hunchback would be better remembered then. I wish Jane stayed too even if she was really only on the covers for two DP magazines. My main complaint with Jane as a DP is that she doesn't sing. That always bothered me and I was not pleased when Merida bypassed that rule.

Yeah, that is interesting how Tiana and Rapunzel switched their stations in life. Although Rapunzel has precedent since the Barbie version also made her a princess by birth (although her love interest is still a prince, unlike Disney's).

I should listen to the audio commentary for Mulan. If I'm correct, they confirmed that Mulan is 16 in it. I need to listen to the Tarzan one as well now since you mentioned that they talk about Kerchak's acceptance of Tarzan.

I'd say the "Pegasus" in Anastasia owes more to the Pont Alexandre III bridge in Paris than it does to Disney's Hercules lol. As for the rest of the CGI in Hercules, I do like the depiction of Mount Olympus. Wish I felt the same way about the Olympians. Hera's design in particular is terrible.

The whales in Treasure Planet seemed directly ported from Fantasia 2000 which doesn't surprise me since that was very early CGI work and it was criticized for Fantasia 2000 as well. They do a great job with Grandmother Willow and even Carpet in Aladdin, implementing CGI with hand-drawn animation. I don't really remember CGI in The Emperor's New Groove though.

I think Kiara's name changed more than once, besides the name you listed. I also remember reading that she was meant to be a twin at one point. Which would really have paralleled with Bambi since Bambi also fathers twins. Yeah, I like how Scar's presence is still felt in Simba's Pride and how Simba is still clearly struggling with that trauma. It's not what one would expect in a cheapquel. Hunchback II certainly didn't go that route with Quasi or even Esmeralda. You'd think both of them would have some issues after the lives they lived, Quasi in particular.

When I watched TPATF, I liked it but wasn't blown away. It didn't make me love Disney again and this was the time that I wasn't really into Disney. The songs really aren't memorable and the characters are so-so. I love Charlotte and Dr. Facilier is a great villain. I actually liked Louis even though most people hated him. Ray I couldn't stand though, and I wasn't a fan of Naveen at all. As I said before, Lawrence felt like a retread of Nathaniel, without any of the depth, and I've told you my thoughts on Tiana and her family. The human scenes are compelling but I lose interest by the time the film goes to the bayou, which is unfortunately most of the film. Mama Odie felt really wasted as well. She accomplishes nothing which is a pity since I read that originally she was supposed to have an epic duel with Dr. Facilier at the end. I'm not sure why they changed it but it's possible that they wanted Tiana to be more involved in the climax so this meant getting rid of Mama Odie's role. Also maybe the criticism by Christian families for portraying voodoo in a positive manner meant that Disney limited themselves to only Dr. Facilier's evil magic and all traces of good voodoo had to be erased, hence why Mama Odie ends up really just existing in the film but not having anything to do.

_________________

We’re a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.
"I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it." - Kylo Ren
"I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." - Rey