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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:41 pm 
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I've always considered Merida to be more pseudo-feminist than anything else. I don't think she's that bad of a character in design, but her execution leaves much to be desired. I imagine that had Brenda Chapman been allowed to remain as head of Brave, Merida would have turned out to be a more endearing creation.

Ditto on Eilonwy being incredibly bland. I get tired of hearing people cry all the time about Eilonwy and Kida not being Disney Princesses. Eilonwy offers nothing new to the table, and not only is she from a flop movie, but she has a derivative design and generic personality. The Eilonwy from the books is such a great character and I love her sense of humor with her various witticisms. Still hoping Disney can do the character justice if they ever go ahead with the live-action version of the Prydain books.

Kida's more unique but I was never a huge fan of her to be honest and I can't see her in the DP franchise anyway. Even if she was in, they'd neuter her like Mulan. I disagree though that Pocahontas fits the fierce, warrior princess trope. She's a lot more like the classic princesses than she is a Merida or Mulan.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:31 am 
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Damage may be done but if you learn your lesson and apologize that is a good character trait. Tinker Bell didn't apologize to Wendy but I'm talking about Merida.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:55 am 
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Tinker Bell wouldn't be Tinker Bell if she apologized lol. Something the Disney Fairies franchise ought to have learned, but that was nothing but a money grab. A pity, since I actually liked the original books that the movies were supposedly based off of.

As for Merida, I'm more tolerant of her being a huge Ariel and Jasmine fan. They both get a lot of flack as well so Merida isn't alone when to comes to being called a selfish princess.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:02 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
Ditto on Eilonwy being incredibly bland. I get tired of hearing people cry all the time about Eilonwy and Kida not being Disney Princesses. Eilonwy offers nothing new to the table, and not only is she from a flop movie, but she has a derivative design and generic personality. The Eilonwy from the books is such a great character and I love her sense of humor with her various witticisms. Still hoping Disney can do the character justice if they ever go ahead with the live-action version of the Prydain books.


The years of arguments and frustration behind-the-scenes is evident in the final film. All of the promise seen in development art, and the simple concept Black Cauldron being the intended kickoff of the "new" generation of Disney animators once the Nine Old Men passed the torch, was squeezed out.

It would be nice to see Disney do a remake of this one. They could launch their own "Lord of the Rings" or "Harry Potter" franchise thru the original Prydain books.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Semaj wrote:

The years of arguments and frustration behind-the-scenes is evident in the final film. All of the promise seen in development art, and the simple concept Black Cauldron being the intended kickoff of the "new" generation of Disney animators once the Nine Old Men passed the torch, was squeezed out.

It would be nice to see Disney do a remake of this one. They could launch their own "Lord of the Rings" or "Harry Potter" franchise thru the original Prydain books.

Yeah, the Black Cauldron turned out to be anything but the Snow White. In a way, I'm almost glad because if the 80s fantasy type film had been a huge success for Disney, they may not have gone the Broadway route with The Little Mermaid and we wouldn't have gotten the next string of Renaissance films.

I think Disney did try to do that with Narnia but they're wary now after the second film failed to do as well as the first. It wasn't nearly an event film like The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was. And new franchises tend to fail these days more often than not, with minor exceptions.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:55 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:12 am 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
Esmeralda overall isn't that bad of a character, but I hate that they had Demi Moore voice her. Kind of ruined it for me, and she ends up extremely boring because of it.

Sorry for bumping this thread, but lately I've happened to agree with you on that. Not because of Demi's acting, which wasn't that bad, but due to casting someone like Demi Moore in a Disney animated movie. Frankly, I find it to be somewhat blaspheme to have an actress like her in a kid movie, but my main gripe with her as Esmeralda is due to Demi's overall lack of likability. She really made Esmeralda less stronger due to her persona, despite that I used to like the character when I was younger. The same gripe is having a likable character being voiced by an detestable actress (Paige O'Hara as Belle), but at least there's a such a difference between the character and the voice actress that Belle manages to stand on her own. The same cannot be said about Esmeralda, who actually (and unfortunately) resembles Moore too much.

But now that this thread has being bumped, I must agree with those who've brought up Merida on this list. Such a selfish and unlikable brat and Kelly MacDonald's voice just makes her even more annoying. I frankly wasn't particularly fond of her mother, Ellinor, either, who never was nothing but a stern mother-archetype that wasn't particularly likable (despite that I love Emma Thompson).

I must confess that I wasn't particularly fond of Violet in The Incredibles, who was just bland and generic. Neither were the two leads in Inside Out (Joy was too over the top-perky and Sadness was the polar opposite and unfortunately less developed). Adult Kiara has always grated me, due to reasons that I've mentioned priorly.

And yes, I shall admit that Jasmine can be somewhat off-putting at times, due to her assertive nature. It's almost a pity that her characterization was deliberately reduced to not to overshadow Aladdin, when there was nothing wrong by having her do so. Oh, and Nakoma is just plain prissy and unlikable, despite that I've defended her good intentions to help her friend.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:49 am 
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I don't see the problem with casting Demi Moore. Just because she's done some risque films doesn't mean she should be barred from voicing an animated character, especially since most children wouldn't even know who she is anyway. By this logic, Robin Williams shouldn't have voiced the Genie since he was known for some very adult humor that wasn't family friendly at all. And let's not forget James Woods, the actor for Hades, who is not only a huge bigot but also a creep who preys on young girls. Yet, somehow Demi Moore is singled out here. You claim that Esmeralda resembles Demi Moore too much but the same can be said about Robin Williams and James Woods with the characters they play, or also Rosie O'Donnell as Terk.

The fiery and independent type of heroine seems to have a lot of detractors here since I see a lot of hate towards Jasmine and Esmeralda. My favorite heroines tend to be cut from this mold since Ariel, Jasmine, Esmeralda, and Anya have always topped my list of favorites. At the same, I love the more traditionally "feminine" heroines as well such as Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, as well as the ones who are sort of in between like Belle and Pocahontas. This is probably why even though Merida is one of the most despised DPs, she's actually my favorite out of the newest crop of princesses. Which isn't saying much, since I'm not really a fan of any of them, but Merida I prefer the most.

DisneyFan09 wrote:
And yes, I shall admit that Jasmine can be somewhat off-putting at times, due to her assertive nature. It's almost a pity that her characterization was deliberately reduced to not to overshadow Aladdin, when there was nothing wrong by having her do so. Oh, and Nakoma is just plain prissy and unlikable, despite that I've defended her good intentions to help her friend.

I don't understand how you don't particular favor Jasmine's assertiveness, but then think that her character would be improved if she had been able to become an even more active character in the film. Wouldn't that only add to her assertiveness?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:04 am 
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What did Rosie O'Donnell do that makes her unsuitable for a kid's movie?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:38 am 
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When I was referring to her, I meant that Terk is basically just Rosie O'Donnell in animated form the way that Genie is just Robin Williams and how DisneyFan09 said that Esmeralda is just Demi Moore. I don't mind Rosie O'Donnell but I know a lot of people hate her and I do remember her making a racist joke about the Chinese once so that doesn't help her case.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:26 am 
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Well, now after seeing the films again, I sorta get a new perspective.

Georgette is still my least favorite for being a snotty witch. Aurora is not bad, but she's just bland and one-note, and Cinderella and Snow White are just much more appealing than her character-wise. Jasmine got on my nerves the last time I watched Aladdin, she just seems to get angry all the time. I dunno, there's just something about her that doesn't work for me anymore. The fact that in later years she overshadows Aladdin is also something I don't like (the much more likable lead, imo).

And Pocahontas is just dull as a rock. I wouldn't dislike her if it weren't for the fact that she's tied to so many racist and problematic tropes, but she is, so...

Anna still wins on account of just being too in-your-face about stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:11 am 
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I have a hard time answering this question now since most of the characters I used to hate have grown on me (Esmeralda, Jasmine, Lilo, Aurora). I've never thought of Georgette as a heroine, but I always thought she was funny. If you consider Tinker Bell a heroine of Peter Pan, then I'd say I hate her.

I still dislike Faline for only being a baby-maker. She's such a boring character. Same with Perdita; Pongo is such an entertaining character that it only accentuates how uninteresting Perdita is. At least Nala has a little personality despite serving the same purpose. Vixey is the worst of them though. So annoying.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:27 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
I don't see the problem with casting Demi Moore. Just because she's done some risque films doesn't mean she should be barred from voicing an animated character, especially since most children wouldn't even know who she is anyway. By this logic, Robin Williams shouldn't have voiced the Genie since he was known for some very adult humor that wasn't family friendly at all. And let's not forget James Woods, the actor for Hades, who is not only a huge bigot but also a creep who preys on young girls. Yet, somehow Demi Moore is singled out here. You claim that Esmeralda resembles Demi Moore too much but the same can be said about Robin Williams and James Woods with the characters they play, or also Rosie O'Donnell as Terk.

The fiery and independent type of heroine seems to have a lot of detractors here since I see a lot of hate towards Jasmine and Esmeralda. My favorite heroines tend to be cut from this mold since Ariel, Jasmine, Esmeralda, and Anya have always topped my list of favorites. At the same, I love the more traditionally "feminine" heroines as well such as Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, as well as the ones who are sort of in between like Belle and Pocahontas. This is probably why even though Merida is one of the most despised DPs, she's actually my favorite out of the newest crop of princesses. Which isn't saying much, since I'm not really a fan of any of them, but Merida I prefer the most.

OK.

I'm sorry if I seemed like I was picking on Demi Moore's adult work as much, but remember that due to her promiscuity makes her somewhat questionable to the part. But my main gripe with Demi Moore is due to her lack of likability. I used to like Esmeralda a lot and while I don't detest her now, I just see a caricature of Demi Moore. And yes, I do like Anya/Anastasia due to her sassy personality, but I felt that they did it right with her.

And I've never noticed that there was such a particular hate towards Esmeralda, due to how people like her as well. I thought she had her detractors, as everyone else, but I never thought that her hate was so big.

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I don't understand how you don't particular favor Jasmine's assertiveness, but then think that her character would be improved if she had been able to become an even more active character in the film. Wouldn't that only add to her assertiveness?

What I meant is that I think Jasmine could've been a stronger character than she already was. I find her to be pretty bland, to be fair. Sorry to say this.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:11 pm 
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thedisneyspirit wrote:
Jasmine got on my nerves the last time I watched Aladdin, she just seems to get angry all the time. I dunno, there's just something about her that doesn't work for me anymore. The fact that in later years she overshadows Aladdin is also something I don't like (the much more likable lead, imo).

I've seen lots of people complain about how Jasmine is always just angry and upset, but I think you have to remember the context of her situation here. She's just learned that she's about to essentially be bartered away to a prince for the rest of her life. Judging by her reaction to Achmed, it appears that all the princes seem as arrogant and unlikable as him. They don't view her as a person, just a beautiful gem to show off to the world and the key to more riches. None of the princes value her as her own individual being and on top of that, she's never been able to live a life of her own and explore the world. Any chances of that are suddenly going to be denied to her, likely forever, after she's married. When we see Jasmine in her film, we're basically seeing her at the lowest point in her life because she knows that after her marriage in three days, she's going to lose any chance of freedom whatsoever. This is basically the end of her life so I don't blame her for being so angry and critical. Imagine if you were pictured during the worst time of your life, you probably wouldn't seem very likable to an audience either, but that also wouldn't truly reflect who you are either. She comes off as far more joyous in the sequels and TV series anyway. As someone who comes from a similar cultural background as Jasmine maybe I can just empathize more with her, but I think it's important to realize where she comes from to explain why her demeanor may seem so unpleasant. You'll notice how much more free she seems when she's in the marketplace with Aladdin and he takes her to her home, or even after she thinks that she's going to marry Aladdin/Ali, someone who loves her for her.

DisneyFan09 wrote:
OK.

I'm sorry if I seemed like I was picking on Demi Moore's adult work as much, but remember that due to her promiscuity makes her somewhat questionable to the part. But my main gripe with Demi Moore is due to her lack of likability. I used to like Esmeralda a lot and while I don't detest her now, I just see a caricature of Demi Moore. And yes, I do like Anya/Anastasia due to her sassy personality, but I felt that they did it right with her.

And I've never noticed that there was such a particular hate towards Esmeralda, due to how people like her as well. I thought she had her detractors, as everyone else, but I never thought that her hate was so big.

What I meant is that I think Jasmine could've been a stronger character than she already was. I find her to be pretty bland, to be fair. Sorry to say this.


Playing promiscuous roles in films isn't really an issue for me, with special emphasis on "playing." Kathleen Turner can be accused of the same thing as Demi Moore and she plays Jessica Rabbit so would you say that she also shouldn't have been hired for the role?

I guess I like Demi Moore so Esmeralda being based off of her doesn't really bother me. I quite like Esmeralda's iconic husky voice.

Esmeralda is generally well-liked, but I just noticed on this thread that there is a particular dislike of heroines like her and Jasmine. Anya isn't talked about much here, but I've seen a lot of people accuse her of similar traits and of course Ariel has her huge share of detractors as well.

So you're saying that you just found Jasmine to be underutilized and more bark than bite on how she isn't a prize to be won, rather than proving it herself with a substantial role in the film? That I can understand. Once more, as an Ariel fan, I automatically gravitate towards Jasmine as well so I've never found her bland. I do remember critics saying that Jasmine felt regressive after Belle because she ended up playing a role more like Ariel. She's a secondary character though so I'm not too bothered by that.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Sorry for my late reply, unfortunately I forgot to answer.

JeanGreyForever wrote:
Playing promiscuous roles in films isn't really an issue for me, with special emphasis on "playing." Kathleen Turner can be accused of the same thing as Demi Moore and she plays Jessica Rabbit so would you say that she also shouldn't have been hired for the role?

Fair enough, but there's a difference of how promiscuous you can be, if it's done in a tasteful, compelling way or if it's done in an opposite way. Sorry if I came across as sexist.

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Esmeralda is generally well-liked, but I just noticed on this thread that there is a particular dislike of heroines like her and Jasmine. Anya isn't talked about much here, but I've seen a lot of people accuse her of similar traits and of course Ariel has her huge share of detractors as well.

I've noticed the dislike towards Jasmine, but not so much about Esmeralda. I used to like Esmeralda a lot when I was a kid, but she's also hampered by a couple of flaws that decreases her credibility (irking Frollo, kissing Quasi on the cheek in a manipulative way and hiding Phoebus in a place that he could've been most likely found). But I don't hate her completely, because she does a couple of redeemable things after all.

Interesting that you mention Anya, because I don't see so much hate towards her. But I love her personality and I think she truly outshines most of Disney's Princesses. And she's we're talking about strong non-Disney characters, I also like Tzipporah from The Prince of Egypt. Some people find her a Esmeralda-rip off, but I think she's done well.

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So you're saying that you just found Jasmine to be underutilized and more bark than bite on how she isn't a prize to be won, rather than proving it herself with a substantial role in the film? That I can understand. Once more, as an Ariel fan, I automatically gravitate towards Jasmine as well so I've never found her bland. I do remember critics saying that Jasmine felt regressive after Belle because she ended up playing a role more like Ariel. She's a secondary character though so I'm not too bothered by that.

Perhaps bland isn't the right word to describe Jasmine, but as you said, compared to Belle she feels more regressive, since Belle was more proactive, regardless of what could've been said about her.

But Jasmine's hatred is still not as huge as Ariel's, which even baffled Nostalgia Critic/Doug Walker and even me at times. Though I'm certainly not a Jasmine hater, I understand why people find her assertive nature off-putting. Mostly because she does come across as somewhat snappy and bratty at times, though you still can sympathize with her. Yet despite that I used to criticize Ariel in the past, I prefer her to Jasmine, actually, mainly because Ariel isn't neither snappy nor bratty in an off-putting way.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:01 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Sorry for my late reply, unfortunately I forgot to answer.

Fair enough, but there's a difference of how promiscuous you can be, if it's done in a tasteful, compelling way or if it's done in an opposite way. Sorry if I came across as sexist.

I've noticed the dislike towards Jasmine, but not so much about Esmeralda. I used to like Esmeralda a lot when I was a kid, but she's also hampered by a couple of flaws that decreases her credibility (irking Frollo, kissing Quasi on the cheek in a manipulative way and hiding Phoebus in a place that he could've been most likely found). But I don't hate her completely, because she does a couple of redeemable things after all.

Interesting that you mention Anya, because I don't see so much hate towards her. But I love her personality and I think she truly outshines most of Disney's Princesses. And she's we're talking about strong non-Disney characters, I also like Tzipporah from The Prince of Egypt. Some people find her a Esmeralda-rip off, but I think she's done well.

Perhaps bland isn't the right word to describe Jasmine, but as you said, compared to Belle she feels more regressive, since Belle was more proactive, regardless of what could've been said about her.

But Jasmine's hatred is still not as huge as Ariel's, which even baffled Nostalgia Critic/Doug Walker and even me at times. Though I'm certainly not a Jasmine hater, I understand why people find her assertive nature off-putting. Mostly because she does come across as somewhat snappy and bratty at times, though you still can sympathize with her. Yet despite that I used to criticize Ariel in the past, I prefer her to Jasmine, actually, mainly because Ariel isn't neither snappy nor bratty in an off-putting way.

That's all right.

I wasn't really calling you out as sexist since you didn't make a generalizing comment about all women. I just didn't see why Demi Moore was being singled out since I felt others who have also worked for Disney have similar "adult" connotations.

In what instance would you say that Esmeralda irked Frollo? The kissing Quasi on the check, I never took as manipulative. She knew he was sheltered and naive but I don't think she realized how much, and especially not how much he idolized her. The kiss was just a friendly way to say goodbye to him, but having never experienced that, Quasi would have taken it for more. I don't blame him for believing she has feelings for him from that, but I don't blame her either for not realizing the effect it would have on him. I have a friend who loathes Esmeralda and similarly calls her manipulative for this kiss scene. The Phoebus scene is bad writing imo, but I guess the Court of Miracles was too far to lug him around while Notre Dame must have been closer by. Plus, she's been at the top herself and seen how roomy it is so she must have figured that Phoebus could easily be hidden there.

Actually, you're right that Anya doesn't get much hate. However, occasionally I see some people criticize her and Esmeralda for being the very stereotypical 90s heroines who can do it as well as the guys if not better. Personally I prefer this archetype over the manic pixie girl.

I guess Ariel is a tamer version of Jasmine, although I personally don't consider either of them to be snappy or bratty. I can see why people would think that though for one or the other, if not typically both.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:05 am 
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Gee, characters being typical of the period they were made and doing things as well as the opposite sex? How badly done! :P

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:54 am 
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For me, it would be Eilonwy. I have only once seen The Black Cauldron, and for me, it was the worst animated classic to come from Disney. The characters were kinda boring, especially her. Others on my list would be Kida (she's nice, but kinda forgettable), Penny, Wendy and Maid Maryann.

There is also Merida, but there are two points of view with her. I like her personality, and I think she's funny and charming, but I don't like her physically. I know she was specifically created to be different from other Princesses, but that's something that I find off-putting about her. I guess that is why I didn't like that she was included in the Disney Princess franchise. She feels super different from the others, because of her physical appearance. I personally like the redesigned version of her that Disney has created back in 2013, when they had the ceremony of her becoming an official Disney Princess.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:28 am 
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The absolute worst is Vanellope. Excruciatingly grating character and voice performance, not in the least helped by the equally annoying Sarah Silverman. Merida is a close second.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:58 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
That's all right. I wasn't really calling you out as sexist since you didn't make a generalizing comment about all women.

Thanks :D

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In what instance would you say that Esmeralda irked Frollo?

When she went to him during her dance in the Feast of Fools and wrapped her scarf around him.

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The kissing Quasi on the check, I never took as manipulative. She knew he was sheltered and naive but I don't think she realized how much, and especially not how much he idolized her. The kiss was just a friendly way to say goodbye to him, but having never experienced that, Quasi would have taken it for more. I don't blame him for believing she has feelings for him from that, but I don't blame her either for not realizing the effect it would have on him. I have a friend who loathes Esmeralda and similarly calls her manipulative for this kiss scene.

Perhaps not exactly manipulative, but it was still a kiss that was meant to "convince" him to let her come to visit her, so she was playing her female intuition to him. It wasn't just an innocent kiss.

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The Phoebus scene is bad writing imo, but I guess the Court of Miracles was too far to lug him around while Notre Dame must have been closer by. Plus, she's been at the top herself and seen how roomy it is so she must have figured that Phoebus could easily be hidden there.

Well said. I've used to ponder about that issue in my teenage and adult years.

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Actually, you're right that Anya doesn't get much hate. However, occasionally I see some people criticize her and Esmeralda for being the very stereotypical 90s heroines who can do it as well as the guys if not better. Personally I prefer this archetype over the manic pixie girl.

Yeah, but I thought the nineties heroines were still distinctive enough to make them individuals and how to make their strength and proactiveness work. At least while they shared similar traits, they didn't felt as they duplicated each other. I've seen some people compare Meg and Anya for their sassiness, but I still thought they were sassy in a different ways. And manic pixie girl, what is that?


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