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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:21 pm 
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I don't understand this. Of course it's perfectly okay for you to hold this opinion and I'm not going to try to change your mind, but I genuinely, honestly, don't understand this. I don't see Ariel as anything you described her at all. Okay, she was naive for making a deal with Ursuala, the sea-witch. But I don't understand why people would hold that against her. Ariel was only 16 year old, and teenagers do stupid things now and then (tell me about it!). Cinderella and Aurora and such were all that age, too, but they were treated like mini-adults... much like children were treated in the days the fairy tales were written. But Ariel was actually given a personality that reflects true teenage mentality in our day and age. That's why her quest comes across as so authentic; that's why it strucks a chord with so many people.

You say she's selfish and spoiled; you show a lot of understanding for Triton. Of course he wanted to protect his daughter, but he was also very prejudiged toward people, and Ariel challenged him. Not everybody may agree, but I believe challenging and criticizing authority figures is a major, important and essential part of kids growing up. So I would always root for Ariel. I've made a very long post in the appropriate thread (a few months ago) about how Ariel is really the only Disney heroine who thrives all events in the movie because of her own emotional motivations. I think her appeal comes from the fact that she always follows her heart and her most inner desires. I think a lot of people can relate to that; or wish they could do the same...


You're allowed to have your opinions as well and I won't make you change yours. But I have to disagree with you once again.

Yes, Triton was prejudiged and did something wrong eventually for destroying her daugthers things. But the difference is that Triton has a character arc and Ariel doesn't. Sure, she was only sixteen, but I guess most teenagers knows when they've crossed the line and apologized. Ariel did barely apologized to her father, but I really think the movie should have showed Ariel and her father coming clean and talk about things. But they didn't. At least Triton did what he did out of love and for Ariel, while Ariel was only doing it for herself.

That's leads me to the next point; There was no real need to root for Ariel. If she had a dad which actually was mean to her and actually HAD a miserable life in the ocean, then her desire to be a human would be more resonant. But Ariel just wanted it because she was a fangirl of the humans and because of being really ignorant of no realizing that her father really wanted her best.

So sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Disagree with me if you want to, but I'll have my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:11 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
[...] That's leads me to the next point; There was no real need to root for Ariel. If she had a dad which actually was mean to her and actually HAD a miserable life in the ocean, then her desire to be a human would be more resonant. But Ariel just wanted it because she was a fangirl of the humans and because of being really ignorant of no realizing that her father really wanted her best.

I'm sorry, but if you really believe that, I have to ask: have you actually *seen* the movie? It seems as if you didn't understand it, or at least didn't understand the character of Ariel. Ariel was clearly miserable in her life underwater. Sure, *you* may think it was a treat, what with being a princess and living a life in luxury and having dancing and singing crabs and fishes around all the time --but *she* wasn't happy, and that's the crux! And her dad wasn't mean to her? He forbade her to do anything she really wanted; he kept her locked up in a world she didn't want to be in. He destroyed everything which was dear to her. So yes, that's why I root for Ariel: to escape the life she hated.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
I'm sorry, but if you really believe that, I have to ask: have you actually *seen* the movie? It seems as if you didn't understand it, or at least didn't understand the character of Ariel. Ariel was clearly miserable in her life underwater. Sure, *you* may think it was a treat, what with being a princess and living a life in luxury and having dancing and singing crabs and fishes around all the time --but *she* wasn't happy, and that's the crux! And her dad wasn't mean to her? He forbade her to do anything she really wanted; he kept her locked up in a world she didn't want to be in. He destroyed everything which was dear to her. So yes, that's why I root for Ariel: to escape the life she hated.


I don't think there is evidence that Ariel hated her life in the ocean prior to seeing Eric. She was totally fascinated with life above the sea and wanted to know as much as she could about it... but I mean we all feel that way. I'm more interested in living in other countries but that doesn't mean I hate my life here. I think it was more a "grass is greener" situation.

Also I don't necessarily know that Triton was terrible to her. Yes, he did a horrible thing by destroying the things she had collected, but he did it for a reason he thought was pure. She was hardly locked up... the only thing she wasn't allowed to do, from what we could see, was swim up to land. Trinton acted as any father would and tried to protect his daughter. He was obviously a fair and beloved leader and never portrayed to be anything but a concerned parent.

Ariel's journey was purely selfish - she acted only on her own feelings, completely disregarding everyone else. It was a rash and immature decision to visit Ursula and both Sebastian and her father were right that it was the wrong thing to do. Despite the fact the film ultimately has a happy ending, the majority of the lesson learned is solely to fight for true love rather than a more selfless moral that other Disney films possess. I don't know that Ariel is a very good role model even though she obviously has gracious qualities.

That being said, I love Ariel. However, I'm a selfish person. :lol: There are many reasons to like Ariel but I can understand why someone wouldn't as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:19 am 
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I heard the filmakers were aware of the problem of the little mermaid giving everything up for a man, so that's the reason they purposely put so much about Ariel trying to get on land before she met the prince.

But, I dunno if that's true.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:37 am 
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I really don't care about Ariel at all....

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Ariel's journey was purely selfish - she acted only on her own feelings, completely disregarding everyone else. It was a rash and immature decision to visit Ursula and both Sebastian and her father were right that it was the wrong thing to do.......


This bit here I agree with and it's actually why I'm not overly happy with Ariel. Despite being selfish and doing this, she still gets her happy ending. While she's on land having the time of her life, her father is back home worried about his daughter and upset that he had gone too far with her. He grew as a character, and Ariel imo stayed the same. She started as a rebellious girl who wanted to be part of the human world, she found herself a prince that she was fascinated over, made a rash and selfish choice and gets to reap all the benefits in the end. Triton winds up suffering however, he nearly loses his daughter and his freedom through this movie.

I can see why people like her and that's fine, good for you but I'm quite content not liking her at all.

With that being said, I also don't care for Aurora for similar reasons. She does nothing to earn her happy ending. She falls in love with a guy, gets upset that she has to go home to her -castle- and a good life, has a cry and a nap only to wake up and realize *gasp* She gets the good life AND the guy she wanted. Why am I supposed to care about her?

Jasmine. Oh Jasmine......I find her hypocritical in the sense that she's "Not an object to be won" and yet dresses like a pole dancer. Hmmm what's wrong with this picture? Yeah she's a princess who lives in a desert, but there's women out in the market wearing heavier clothing than that. I'm pretty sure she could have had a better outfit be made for her and in better fabric. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:55 am 
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Chernabog_Rocks wrote:
I
Jasmine. Oh Jasmine......I find her hypocritical in the sense that she's "Not an object to be won" and yet dresses like a pole dancer. Hmmm what's wrong with this picture? Yeah she's a princess who lives in a desert, but there's women out in the market wearing heavier clothing than that. I'm pretty sure she could have had a better outfit be made for her and in better fabric. ;)


Simply put. The film was overseen by men. :wink:

I would have to agree on Jasmine though. It's funny because I was actually doing a countdown of my favourite heroes and heroines and let me tell you, it's HARD trying to put them in an order. Jasmine probably got higher than she needed to simply because of her movie and her looks/popularity.

She's seen as one of the most popular heroines, yet she really doesn't do that much in the movie. I suppose some credit can go to the fact she's technically just the love interest, so of course she has to be a bit sexy and isn't as developed. If I remember correctly she was originally supposed to be even more spoilt and obnoxious in the film, so I guess it's a good thing that didn't happen. :)

Oh and Kida, although she's not exactly popular if you watch the film she doesn't reeeaally get that much to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:33 am 
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Here are mine:

Tinkerbell - Wendy was pretty catty, but Tink actually attemted murder :shock: On another note, she's a skank :wink: :P

Ariel - She's such a simpering brat. She never acknowledged that her Father had a pure (albeit misguided) motivation for making the Human world off limits, and she left him missing her despite the fact that she was hardly miserable in the ocean (she could have gone to Ursula earlier if she was) That she could respond to Triton's extreme generalisations about the whole of Humanity with "But Daddy I love him!", speaks volumes about how much of a motivation Eric was. She might have liked other aspects of the Human world, but she wasn't looking for Ursula's cave, or trying to make Triton see sense, until she saw Eric :lol: I'm sure this will be contentious, but she's selfish.

Jasmine - She, like Tinkerbell, is a skank, and she let herself be a pawn between Jafar and Aladdin.

Esmeralda - She wasn't wrong to like Phoebus (and she didn't know Quasimodo was watching when they kissed), but she lead him to believe that she had feelings for him, when she kissed him. She's also a passive purity sue, as I have mentioned before.

Megara - She's styled as "spunky" and "independent", but the truth is that she didn't stand up to Hades, until she met Hercules. Say what you like about Snow White and Aurora, at least they're styled as the helpless damsels they are. Meg is a fob off :evil:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:29 am 
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Pocahontas-She's a bland cardboard cutout with no depth whatsoever, and a tiresome bore that you don't care about whatsoever and is in my opinion one of Disney's most uninteresting characters. She barely displays any emotions and is not a character the audience can relate to, and there's no real chemistry between her and John Smith.

Ariel-I don't hate her as much as others do, and I like her design and her song 'Part of You World', but she comes across to me as rather shallow, naive and as Disney Geek stated, whilst on land her father is suffering; she doesn't even give a second thought to him. Also, I doubt Ariel ended up truly happy with Eric because I think Ariel is similar to many wealthy celebrities who do impulsive or seemingly crazy things in the pursuit of happiness.

Whilst most of the Merpeople in Atlantica probably thought they would be happier if they more famous and richer like people on land, Ariel already had fame and fortune, not to mention talent with singing; she was unsatisfied by this and started to believe that she'd find happiness and ultimate satisfaction on the human world, when in fact the human world is much worse than Atlantica (which looked like a peaceful paradise). She probably spent much of her future time seeking happiness, which often makes you unhappier in the long run.

Tinkerbell-I don't think I need to go into detail. She tried to murder Wendy and is a vain, jealous creature who makes Hook and Smee look like heroes.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:44 am 
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Rapunzel is my least favorite heroine. Don't get me wrong, I like Mandy Moore (I even have a few of her songs on my iTunes) but I don't think she has a fairytale or theatrical voice. It was too ordinary which ruined it for me. The movie felt like a romantic comedy as opposed to a fantasy/musical.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:29 am 
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Chernabog_Rocks wrote:
With that being said, I also don't care for Aurora for similar reasons. Why am I supposed to care about her?

Because she hot and fuckable.

Chernabog_Rocks wrote:
Jasmine. Oh Jasmine......I find her hypocritical in the sense that she's "Not an object to be won" and yet dresses like a pole dancer.

That is funny. Silly Jasmine. Thinking she's not an object.


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Esmeralda - She's also a passive purity sue, as I have mentioned before.


This is passive purity sue???

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Megara - but the truth is that she didn't stand up to Hades,
I call that being smart. I know I wouldn't take my chances when dealing with the fucking ruler of the dead.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:27 am 
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I'm sorry, but if you really believe that, I have to ask: have you actually *seen* the movie? It seems as if you didn't understand it, or at least didn't understand the character of Ariel. Ariel was clearly miserable in her life underwater. Sure, *you* may think it was a treat, what with being a princess and living a life in luxury and having dancing and singing crabs and fishes around all the time --but *she* wasn't happy, and that's the crux! And her dad wasn't mean to her? He forbade her to do anything she really wanted; he kept her locked up in a world she didn't want to be in. He destroyed everything which was dear to her. So yes, that's why I root for Ariel: to escape the life she hated.


Yes, I've actually seen the movie.

You have good points. But what really was so miserable about the ocean life? If the film really made a valid point for Ariel to be miserable, then her desire to get free from the ocean could be more understandable. Otherwise, I simply got the notion that she was just ungrateful and spoiled and actually glorified the human world, without even knowing that the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side (if you've heard that expression).

I disagree with you when it comes to King Triton, though. Her father did what he did out of love. Sure, he crossed the line when he destroyed Ariel's toys and he was somewhat jugdemental. But he also did what he did out of love and concern for his daughter as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:35 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
I disagree with you when it comes to King Triton, though. Her father did what he did out of love. Sure, he crossed the line when he destroyed Ariel's toys and he was somewhat jugdemental. But he also did what he did out of love and concern for his daughter as well.
I don't believe that at all. You say Triton only cared for his daughter while Ariel was only self-motivated, but that's not true. What he did, he did out of fear and ignorance. To say he really meant to protect his daughter is an excuse for his motivations.

“Is it true you rescued a human from drowning?”
“He could’ve died!”
“One less human to worry about.”

Sorry, but it’s hard to feel a huge amount of sympathy for Triton like you do, considering he has little sympathy for a whole species of people. I'm curious, would you want to live with someone like that? Besides, his transformation into a better person was because Ariel ran away--making him realize how horrible he really was to her--and because a human saved them. If she had never left, he'd still be as hateful, ignorant, and, yes, selfish as he was at the beginning. Whether she intended to or not, the fact that Ariel followed her feelings ultimately reformed Triton.

For Ariel, there was nowhere to go under the ocean to escape Triton because he ruled the entire bottomless deep. The deal with Ursula was, yes, stupid (and the movie shows it to be), but she didn't have a lot of options. Ursula, like all manipulative dealers, took advantage of someone she knew didn't have many choices. Personally, I have more sympathy for a 16-year old acting stupid than for a man as old as Triton acting stupid--being that old and in an important position, he should know better.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I don't see what's so wrong about people occasionally living their lives for themselves rather than bending over backwards to please ignorant people.

Disney Geek wrote:
Megara - She's styled as "spunky" and "independent", but the truth is that she didn't stand up to Hades, until she met Hercules. Say what you like about Snow White and Aurora, at least they're styled as the helpless damsels they are. Meg is a fob off
You’re right, she didn’t stand up to Hades until that moment. And what happened? He forced her to do what he wanted anyway. The only way she managed to finally escape from Hades was through death, where she then became his property again. Megara was as strong as anyone could be in the same circumstances.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:21 pm 
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I don't believe that at all. You say Triton only cared for his daughter while Ariel was only self-motivated, but that's not true. What he did, he did out of fear and ignorance. To say he really meant to protect his daughter is an excuse for his motivations.


You have a valid point, though. But remember his comment to Ariel; "Do you think I want to see my youngest daughter trapped in a fisheates hook?"


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:30 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
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I don't believe that at all. You say Triton only cared for his daughter while Ariel was only self-motivated, but that's not true. What he did, he did out of fear and ignorance. To say he really meant to protect his daughter is an excuse for his motivations.


You have a valid point, though. But remember his comment to Ariel; "Do you think I want to see my youngest daughter trapped in a fisheates hook?"
True, but I still don't think phobias make good parenting.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Super Aurora wrote:
Chernabog_Rocks wrote:
Jasmine. Oh Jasmine......I find her hypocritical in the sense that she's "Not an object to be won" and yet dresses like a pole dancer.

That is funny. Silly Jasmine. Thinking she's not an object.

Agree. Even if she would've wore just a bikini she still had the right to say she's 'not an object to be won'. She's kind off modern if you think about it :P


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Well, this isn't necessarily MY opinion, but a friend of mine said his least favorite princess was Ariel, simply because she was making some pretty selfish decisions.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:07 pm 
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DisneyJedi wrote:
Well, this isn't necessarily MY opinion, but a friend of mine said his least favorite princess was Ariel, simply because she was making some pretty selfish decisions.


Really? I'm pretty new to this movie having gotten a copy of it in January but I didn't find Ariel selfish. I kind of see it as: You can only please your family so much but ultimately it's your happiness that matters most.

I can relate too because my family (not my immediate) treats me as what I feel like a black sheep because they dont like my opinions, my being gay, or my not considering my father's other son family.

I think that's what makes Ariel good (in ways) because you can relate to her.

Kind of off topic but idk i thought i'd give my two cents on that lol


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
Sorry, but it’s hard to feel a huge amount of sympathy for Triton like you do, considering he has little sympathy for a whole species of people. [...] Besides, his transformation into a better person was because Ariel ran away--making him realize how horrible he really was to her--and because a human saved them. If she had never left, he'd still be as hateful, ignorant, and, yes, selfish as he was at the beginning. Whether she intended to or not, the fact that Ariel followed her feelings ultimately reformed Triton. [...]

Personally, I have more sympathy for a 16-year old acting stupid than for a man as old as Triton acting stupid--being that old and in an important position, he should know better.

:clap: *bows down to Disney's Divinity*


Patrick wrote:
I don't think there is evidence that Ariel hated her life in the ocean prior to seeing Eric. [...]

But then was 'Part of your world' all about? That took place before she even knew Eric. It's the "I want"-song of TLM. Ariel wanted to be in another place even before she got to know the prince.

Patrick wrote:
Also I don't necessarily know that Triton was terrible to her. Yes, he did a horrible thing by destroying the things she had collected, but he did it for a reason he thought was pure. She was hardly locked up... the only thing she wasn't allowed to do, from what we could see, was swim up to land. [...]

Of course Triton was a concerned parent who did what he was right to protect his daughter, but that doesn't make him anymore right. You say: "the only thing she wasn't allowed to do"... but that's just the crux of the story: that's the one thing she wanted more than anything else in life! And, like Sebastian said, she would've been miserable for the rest of her life, had she listened to Triton. So yeah, I think that's pretty damn terrible.

Patrick wrote:
Ariel's journey was purely selfish - she acted only on her own feelings, completely disregarding everyone else. [...] Despite the fact the film ultimately has a happy ending, the majority of the lesson learned is solely to fight for true love rather than a more selfless moral that other Disney films possess. I don't know that Ariel is a very good role model even though she obviously has gracious qualities.

I think Ariel is a great role model. But then again, I'm very big on teaching young people to question and, if neccesary, to defy authority figures and for them to search their own way in life. I think the message of the movie is to fight for what you believe in; to challenge prejudices (Triton was extremely prejudiced toward humans) and to follow you heart. Ariel got her comeuppance when she almost got destoryed by a giant Ursula. It was made very clear that her deal with Ursula was wrong.


Chernabog_Rocks wrote:
Jasmine. Oh Jasmine......I find her hypocritical in the sense that she's "Not an object to be won" and yet dresses like a pole dancer. Hmmm what's wrong with this picture? Yeah she's a princess who lives in a desert, but there's women out in the market wearing heavier clothing than that. I'm pretty sure she could have had a better outfit be made for her and in better fabric. ;)

Is that your reason for disliking Jasmine? You think that makes her hypocritical? Maybe you should come join us in the 21st century! As if dressing that way entitles men to think of her as "an object to be won"!! That you would even make that connection is baffling to me! So when a woman dresses that way, you think she's an object or wants to be seen as an object?! I have to stop writing now, before I end up saying something I regret, because I'm getting more angry every second I think about your backward thoughts! :roll:

Oh... and you obviously have never seen a pole dancer, if you think *that's* what they wear!


Disney Geek wrote:
Ariel - She's such a simpering brat. She never acknowledged that her Father had a pure (albeit misguided) motivation for making the Human world off limits, and she left him missing her despite the fact that she was hardly miserable in the ocean [...]

Please see my reply to Patrick above. She most definitly was miserable in her old life.

Disney Geek wrote:
Jasmine - She, like Tinkerbell, is a skank, and she let herself be a pawn between Jafar and Aladdin.

Excuse me, but how is she a "skank"? And what makes women describe other women as "skanks", a word invented by men to put women in their places? It's a degrading word used by men to put down and oppress women, so why one woman would use it against another woman, is beyond me. But besides that, how is Jasmine "a pawn" between Aladdin and Jafar? This seems to me an outrageous claim. Jafar was after the power of the Sultan, not after Jasmine.

Disney Geek wrote:
Esmeralda - She wasn't wrong to like Phoebus (and she didn't know Quasimodo was watching when they kissed), but she lead him to believe that she had feelings for him, when she kissed him. She's also a passive purity sue, as I have mentioned before.

Yeah, but it's not her fault Quasimodo thought she had feelings for him. I mean, girls have kissed me on the cheek lots of times, but not all of them had feelings for me. (Ha, I wish!) Men just often wrongly assume a woman likes them for even looking at them. That's how we are.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:46 pm 
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I chose Snow White. She's clingy, gullible, and condescending to the dwarfs who allow her to hide out at their cottage (they should be making the rules, not her!)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:55 pm 
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Tinkerbell is definately my least favorite! I never understood how she is so popular because she is such a witch in the film.

Elionwy never interested me either I always found her bland. Which is funny because Aroura was my favorite when I was younger but she atleast sang lol. Other than that I like all of the heroines pretty much. Jasmine is a little meh in Aladdin when we get to the middle because her wanting to be more than just a princess gets lost in the mix of things. I agree she is more likable and interesting in the sequels and TV show.

And I love Snow White I agree with her making a deal with the dwarfs with the one thing she kmew really well was smart. Also she had some guts I mean she is a young girl who just found out her stepmother wanted her dead and she had to either run for her life or get killed. She's a 13/14 year old girl who most likely never went too far away from the castle alone and now she has to run away and hide forever. If she was really dumb she would laugh it off and say "No my stepmother loves me." but she runs away not knowing where to go so she obviously has some guts haha. And like other's have said she is so pure she tries not to see the bad in people only the good and really how harmful can a "poor old lady" be.

I feel like Snow is always dumped on and it makes me sad because she has always been one of my favorites.

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