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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:23 pm 
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The more UD'rs are trashing Beauty & The Beast on this board, the more I want to watch it again :lol:

Anyway, maybe people will think Belle is my favourite Disney-heroin because of my nickname. Actually this just popped into my head when I signed up for this board, and it wouldn't go away. Yes, as a bookworm I do associate myself with Belle. (about the lightweight stuff she supposedly only reads: isn't there a deleted scene in which Belle reads Romeo and Juliet together with the Beast? Seems great literature to me) But I think I like Jane Porter and Mulan more.

But okay, this is not a thread about the MOST favourite Disney-heroin.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:44 pm 
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What I always got from Belle is that she wanted something that was out of the ordinary, magical, etc. Of course, the "adventure" part makes it seem like she's talking about swordfights and so on. But I thought she got an extra-ordinary life at the castle, and she had an experience most others wouldn't even think of.

She also talks about having "someone understand," and she gets that from Beast in the end, because he's just as much of an outsider in his castle as she is in her town. I think Belle is supposed to be somewhat naive at the beginning in her judgment of "ordinary" life, and her progression coincides with Beast's growing out of his selfishness. Plus, people act like she, and other princesses, are just going to be housewives once they get married. They'll be rulers, with huge amounts of money and power, to do whatever they please. Of course, that makes them sound like gold-diggers, but love doesn't have to be a setback to one's dreams. I hate this strange idea that to be feminist you have to be so self-centered that you can't even love someone, or marry them, or have them help you (like you would help them). It's just backwards nonsense.

If Belle was a male character, this whole "learn that love is more important" cliche wouldn't be as big an issue. Sure, it's heteronormative, but so are all Disney's movies.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
As a matter of fact... I think The Animaniacs did a bit of a parody of this in a Rita & Runt skit that was hilarious. About, of all things, witch hunting in Salem. The last song Rita sings is clearly a spoof on Angela Lansberry's "Beauty and the Beast," to which Runt replies- "I hope we don't get sued." But even further, the entire town looks a bit like BatB's, the townspeople have backup singing parts, and the villain's a bit like Gaston mixed with a pilgrim. "If anyone asks how you got free, tell 'em the cow did it."

Why- would you look at that... ? It's on YouTube! :

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6ehw3gollxg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6ehw3gollxg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


I loved that episode and I always love Rita and Runt. Bernadette Peters makes me smile every time. Les Miseranimals.[/i]

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
I hate this strange idea that to be feminist you have to be so self-centered that you can't even love someone, or marry them, or have them help you (like you would help them). It's just backwards nonsense.

Who says that's what feminism is about? There are many different 'sorts' of feminism, and what it means to be a feminist is still being discussed.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
Disney's Divinity wrote:
I hate this strange idea that to be feminist you have to be so self-centered that you can't even love someone, or marry them, or have them help you (like you would help them). It's just backwards nonsense.

Who says that's what feminism is about? There are many different 'sorts' of feminism, and what it means to be a feminist is still being discussed.
I didn't say that's what feminism is about, I said I hate this "idea" of feminism that a lot of people have these days. To me, that particular branch-out is extreme and, imo, ridiculous. I personally always thought feminism was about choice, power, equality.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
What I always got from Belle is that she wanted something that was out of the ordinary, magical, etc. Of course, the "adventure" part makes it seem like she's talking about swordfights and so on. But I thought she got an extra-ordinary life at the castle, and she had an experience most others wouldn't even think of.

She also talks about having "someone understand," and she gets that from Beast in the end, because he's just as much of an outsider in his castle as she is in her town. I think Belle is supposed to be somewhat naive at the beginning in her judgment of "ordinary" life, and her progression coincides with Beast's growing out of his selfishness. Plus, people act like she, and other princesses, are just going to be housewives once they get married. They'll be rulers, with huge amounts of money and power, to do whatever they please. Of course, that makes them sound like gold-diggers, but love doesn't have to be a setback to one's dreams. I hate this strange idea that to be feminist you have to be so self-centered that you can't even love someone, or marry them, or have them help you (like you would help them). It's just backwards nonsense.

If Belle was a male character, this whole "learn that love is more important" cliche wouldn't be as big an issue. Sure, it's heteronormative, but so are all Disney's movies.


I agree—about Belle's character development. That's the way it's supposed to go. I don't think it's executed properly in the film version—hence my distaste for Belle—but I find it's done properly in the stage version.

To play the devil's advocate, I have to say, if Beast, a prince (who, in roughly 1700s France, is just a regional ruler), can drop off the face of the earth for so many years without anyone wondering what happened to their ruler, I don't think Belle is going to be able to do much as his wife. ;)

Perhaps it's the time period, perhaps it's because several other Disney princesses get what they want plus a husband, but while I certainly buy Belle getting her someone to understand her, I don't buy her getting her adventure in the great wide somewhere ten miles from the podunk town she doesn't like. And I think that's the great dividing line between the two camps concerning the character.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:58 am 
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Belle wanted what was in her books. She got the castle, the prince, the romance, the magic, even the sword fights (Gaston). The castle is also pretty far off.

However, I don't know if she got someone "who understands". One problem I have is that Belle doesn't explain what she wants and have the Beast say "That's what I want, too!" There's no indication the Beast loved books as much as her, he just learns to read and seems to enjoy it, but it's not the same. But I don't know if he has to, because maybe love is greater than all of that, even the "understanding part" (? Well everyone's partner really should understand them, or want to...) but that brings me to...

However, before she knows he's a prince, she decides love is the most important thing out of anything she ever wanted.

I ma not sure if "A Change in Me" did exactly say that, but maybe it's too metaphorical. I would love a break-down and explaining of that song. But since I heard Toni Braxton sing it, I have loved, loved, loved that song.

Oh, but it was Tim Rice, not Menken, who wrote the song for Toni Braxton. I guess he could have written it with Menken, but here's the article that tells a lot about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:15 am 
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:( All this Belle-bashing is making me sad. She is pretty much my favorite....

Anyway, as all of you probably know by now, there is only one Disney heroine who I truly dislike, and that would be Aurora. She is basically a living, breathing McGuffin, and it shows. She is NOT the protagonist of Sleeping Beauty, and really, I don't even think she should be considered a Disney heroine. Does she ever do anything heroic? Anything at all? No, no, she doesn't. Even Snow White, with all of her snivelling and near-uselessness has a handful of redeeming, and even endearing, qualities. Does Aurora? No, not really.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:22 am 
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I agree, of all the Disney Princesses, Belle is, in my opinion, the greatest heroine. I also hate the bashing of Belle. I will have to agree where we bash on Jane from Tarzan, she's just awful. Now, I have nothing against the actress who played Jane, but she is just weak in it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:11 am 
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Goliath wrote:
BelleGirl wrote:
But why than, Lazario do you keep rattling on about Belle being a 'fake feminist'? Of course she is a 'ploy' to the beast and to the story, because it's clear from the beginning what Belle's role is: to break the spell and marry the handsome prince the Beast has become and live happily ever after. [...]

That's why it's a fairy tale, after all. Like Snow White was, like Cinderella was, and like Sleeping Beauty was. Funny thing is, Lazario has said many times he doesn't take Disney films very seriously --that is, he doesn't see any deeper meanings in them, or any realism, or any depth. But that's okay with him, because he doesn't expect Disney films to be more than entertainment. Then *why* single out Beauty and the Beast to trash it over and over again?

If this is an actual question and not just another set-up to mock and label me, I'll answer it.

I'm reacting to other people taking Beauty and the Beast seriously. Some have claimed Belle is a forward-minded character for a fairy tale heroine because she has dialogue in which she defends reading books and dismisses old-fashioned opinions that a woman's job is to cook, clean, and bare children. I believe someone in this thread has already made the argument that fairy tale characters don't need to be activists for the story to work. And yet still, people take her message to heart. But I question how much merit this message has when it's delivered by a woman whom the movie gives very little sense of self to. Not to mention, as I described earlier, all of her scenes of battling The Beast's oafishness and "human cruelty" (not my words- another poster from another thread) are shown to us from another character's point of view.


Goliath wrote:
And why is Sleeping Beauty different; why is that the *one* Disney film with more depth, more class, more sophistication, while it works the exact same way as most other Disney films?

I never said anything like that. It is in fact, different. It's not merely my personal opinion that it has many powerful ambient and ethereal qualities about it that lend itself to various interpretations of what it means, etc. Yes, in my personal opinion - I love the film. It's clearly about the forces of good and evil and so I said it was. Was that not true?

In fact, if you know my arguments were so artificial... Single one out.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:41 am 
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It seems like what ever board I am on there is always a heated discussion about Belle. Why is that? Sometimes I see them about Ariel too, but mainly Belle becomes the center of the disagreement.

No one seems to get this upset when the other girls are disliked. I for one love Jane and I know she has been mentioned in here. Jasmine seems to get some extremes in love or hate, but if someone on here doesn't like her, you still don't see as much "banter" back and forth about it as you do with Belle.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Rapunzel wrote:
It seems like what ever board I am on there is always a heated discussion about Belle. Why is that? Sometimes I see them about Ariel too, but mainly Belle becomes the center of the disagreement.

No one seems to get this upset when the other girls are disliked. I for one love Jane and I know she has been mentioned in here. Jasmine seems to get some extremes in love or hate, but if someone on here doesn't like her, you still don't see as much "banter" back and forth about it as you do with Belle.


Belle is serious f*cking business, man!!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:13 am 
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TheValentineBros wrote:
I agree, of all the Disney Princesses, Belle is, in my opinion, the greatest heroine. I also hate the bashing of Belle. I will have to agree where we bash on Jane from Tarzan, she's just awful. Now, I have nothing against the actress who played Jane, but she is just weak in it.


I disagree totally about Jane being 'awful'. She is sweet an has a great heart. I don't like the bashing of Belle, I don't like bashing Jane either. Let's stop bashing!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:37 am 
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I don't mean to be picky... But, with the thread topic and all, what can we do then?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:43 am 
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BelleGirl wrote:
TheValentineBros wrote:
I agree, of all the Disney Princesses, Belle is, in my opinion, the greatest heroine. I also hate the bashing of Belle. I will have to agree where we bash on Jane from Tarzan, she's just awful. Now, I have nothing against the actress who played Jane, but she is just weak in it.


I disagree totally about Jane being 'awful'. She is sweet an has a great heart. I don't like the bashing of Belle, I don't like bashing Jane either. Let's stop bashing!
Okay, we'll stop.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:44 am 
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I think there's a difference between bashing and legitimately pointing out the reasons we don't like a particular Disney heroine. You don't have to agree with the people who don't like your favorite character, you know! ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:10 am 
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Lazario wrote:
I don't mean to be picky... But, with the thread topic and all, what can we do then?


Nothing :P


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:07 am 
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In that case, let's all go Pizza Hut. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:25 am 
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Your treat? You got a deal. Image

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:39 am 
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Or we can see a movie, huh?

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