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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:20 pm 
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To illustrate my thoughts on this never-ending conversation and the almost religious and fundamentalist love from certain forum members towards Beauty and the Beast, I shall use this short yet simple clip:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/U-pFDQyiWXs&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/U-pFDQyiWXs&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I think my appreciation towards Beauty and the Beast is really sliding due to this thread. I used to think of it as one of the greats, now due to all the silly bickering, it seems like a silly cult chick-flick that has more fundamentalist fans than Twilight. Thanks a bloody bunch. :roll:

and I'm attacking the Marcus school of thought, not the 2099net, Brendan or Escapay school of thought.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:41 pm 
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I'd stay outta this thread myself but it's like a traffic accident. :p

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:08 pm 
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What about the "I don't give two sh*ts about what either side thinks" school of thought? :lol: :P

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:49 pm 
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Bless you, Wondy. And you've updated WTF as well!

:pink:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:17 pm 
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It's not even a competition with the WTFs anymore. Can someone lower the level of debate here like another notch in the hopes of getting some new blood in there?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:52 pm 
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Everyone, especially you Wondy, please:

In that clip, you can see that the background in the new IMAX version of the scene is missing detail in the background, and an animated shadow. That is more than the colors and animation of Cogsworth. Also, even the background of the sky behind the Beast looks less detailed and gloomy (I am not talking about the window but the sky).

That is what was is plainly there. Now I will say that I do not see how no one can find that the moods, atmosphere, and maturity or level of work or sophistication or even "like it's a 'real' movie" are the same in both scenes.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:47 am 
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You are absolutely right Disney Duster, but some people seem to be unable to see all those things?!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:51 am 
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And Wonderlicious, even after Disney Duster explained it to you, I explained it to you, and the Cogsworh clips are right in front of you, you STILL don't see it?

That's really tragic, to say the least.

Honestly, if you don't see any difference between those clips BESIDES the changed movements and colors, you shouldn't even speak about the classics on a forum like this.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:18 am 
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Marky_198 wrote:
And Wonderlicious, even after Disney Duster explained it to you, I explained it to you, and the Cogsworh clips are right in front of you, you STILL don't see it?

That's really tragic, to say the least.

Honestly, if you don't see any difference between those clips BESIDES the changed movements and colors, you shouldn't even speak about the classics on a forum like this.


Let me ask you a few questions. Who has more posts here? Who has been around on this forum for longer? Who has read the most books on Disney and animation?

And what do you consider to be a classic (I'm going to speak just in Disney terms; I'm not going to be arrogant by mentioning classical music or Ancient Rome and Greece)? I could be wrong, but I've never heard you mention anything like Dumbo, Alice in Wonderland, Lady and the Tramp and above all Fantasia. It appears to me that you only wish to discuss (at least positively) films containing princesses and fairies, which really says something.

As I'm sure you can already tell, what I have just highlighted I consider to be a personal attack, which defines your arrogance to a T. Are you trying to test my bloody patience (or everyone's for that matter)? Whether or not I can see the difference, that was not the point of my post. Sure, there may be some difference, I may or may not prefer one version. If you wanted everybody to notice the lack of the shadow, why didn't you say that in the first place instead of writing vague comments such as "it looks so sequely!"? Such comments aren't very precise and a lot more people need hints as to what you want to say. The fact is, though, I'm getting a bit tired of reading a never-ending thread that has become a complete parody of itself, and makes a relatively benign subject seem like a hot political or ethical debate. Seriously, some people's fandom is getting a bit too intense, and it's making me question whether or not I like Beauty and the Beast very much any more, as such silly talk makes me view it as trivial. And if anyone is so offended by the change of Cogsworth's animation, wouldn't it surely be available on the DVD? Naturally, I don't have it on me right now to go and check, and whilst it is true that the original theatrical version on the DVD is a somewhat ambiguous term, I'm sure they did provide the original theatrical version for the scene up until when the Beast roars after letting Belle go (since the West Wing would have otherwise suddenly become magically clean in the version not containing "Human Again"), which would probably mean that Cogsworth's animation and shadow still are there. If I'm wrong, then feel free to correct me.

Frankly, I don't have to come on to this forum any more if I don't want to. I'm doing the final year of my degree, have lots of friends who I like to catch up with and could spend some of my extra time working for charity or something similar. And I know that lots of posters have gone and been divas and said (after an argument) "OMG, this forum 'aint what it used to be, you must all hate me, I'M LEAVING!!!". But I'm above doing such flamboyant exits, only to come crawling back two days later. So I refuse to leave this forum, as I only wish to do so for genuine reasons (like being really busy with stuff in my real life, having no internet etc). Get used to that, people.

To conclude, Marky, will you please just grow up? You're doing yourself disservice by your constant fundamentalist nature, and making the Disney Discussion much too fiery than it should be. I only used the Homer Simpson clip to describe my frustration over how endless and aimless this thread seems to be. Somebody please close it. Really, please. :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:25 am 
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Marky_198 wrote:
Mike Duster wrote:
To be technical Albert, the entire film of Beauty adn the Beast is literally, literally changed.


quote="Escapay : Tell that to a blind person.


Well, it seems like that's exactly what he's doing.....


As far as I'm aware, Escapay's eyes are fully functional. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:37 am 
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I'm glad you feel the need to defend yourself.

And I didn't mean to attack you, but I don't like the fact you make fun of me in your signature, while it's YOU who doesn't see things.

"to notice the lack of the shadow, why didn't you say that in the first place instead of writing vague comments such as "it looks so sequely!"?"

If you had taken a look at the clip yourself, you would have noticed everything that's wrong with it yourself.
Just laughing at my posts and your reaction doesn't come across as very interested.

It does look extremely sequely (besides the colors and changed movements) and you say this "thread has become a complete parody of itself" while it's actually BATB that has become a complete parody of itself.

So now you know all this, what do you think about the look, the forgotten shadow, etc yourself?

Saying "why do you care so much" also show how serious you are about this, but you have to accept that there are some people that DO care they are losing this beloved classic.

Of course I know there are more important things and I have a good education as well, but that's nor really the point here, is it? :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:38 pm 
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :thumb:
Excellent post, Wonderlicious, and I have similar feelings towards UD these days. I took a month long break from UD a short time ago and it really helped. I love Disney films and I love UD because it is the only true Disney fan site devoted to the films and not the parks. I hope that you do stay, even with your busy social life. Perhaps just don't enter this particular thread anymore. No amount of reason will get the "religious and fundamentalist" fans to stop repeating the same thing over and over. :lol: And I hope that you are able to fall in love with Beauty and the Beast again someday because it is an amazing film in it's own right. Disney is about storytelling. A bad restoration or changes in animation can't destroy that (unless you are Marky_198 or Disney Duster).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:10 pm 
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goofystitch wrote:
I hope that you do stay, even with your busy social life.


Somebody didn't read into my "no surrender" hint. :P

I wrote:
So I refuse to leave this forum, as I only wish to do so for genuine reasons (like being really busy with stuff in my real life, having no internet etc). Get used to that, people.


goofystitch wrote:
And I hope that you are able to fall in love with Beauty and the Beast again someday because it is an amazing film in it's own right.


Don't worry, I bet the next time I decide to give it a go, I'll say "oh, Beauty and the Beast is the best movie ever! What was I thinking when I was saying the restoration thread on here was making me dislike it?"

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Bless you once again Wondy, excellent long post and don't ever leave UD in a diva-like huff. :pink:

Anyways, if I may borrow and modify a song from Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Evita" and dedicate it Marky, who even after Wondy's nice long post, still asked "So now you know all this, what do you think about the look, the forgotten shadow, etc yourself?"...

    It's never easy, and you think it strange
    When we try to explain how we feel
    But you don't read our words after all's said and done

    You won't believe us
    All that you see is a cartoon you once knew
    Although it's restored like a diamond
    But it's still zirconia to you

    Disney let it happen, they preserved their films
    Couldn't stay all their life unrestored
    Looking dusty and faded like they've been out in the sun

    So they chose restoration
    Made to look better, not made to look new
    But nothing impressed you at all
    I guess we should expect that from you...

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky
    The truth is most don't think like you
    All through the forum
    It's so frustrating
    And I don't care now
    What you're debating

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky
    The truth is most don't think like you
    All through the forum
    Whining about it all
    It's like talking to
    A stubborn brick wall

    And for others' opinions, for others' views
    You never invited them in
    It was clear to the forum they were the least you desired

    You have delusions
    You give no solutions, you say we can't see
    The answer from us all the time
    "WTF do you want it to be?"

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky
    The truth is most don't think like you
    All through the forum
    It's so frustrating
    And I don't care now
    What you're debating

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky
    The truth is most don't think like you
    All through the forum
    Whining about it all
    It's like talking to
    A stubborn brick wall

    Have I said too much?
    There's nothing more I can think of to say to you.
    But all you have to do is look at me to know
    That every word is true


albert

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:30 pm 
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I wish I owned the Beauty and the Beast Platinum to check...

But anyway, it seems in some people's opinions, other people's opinions are silly, and so they make fun of them.

But some things are more important to people than to other people, and some people care about some things more than other people care.

I defend you Marky, I'm sorry for what these and others have been doing to you. But do not give up on your beliefs and what you care about. Perhaps there are ways to better explain things or get others to see what you mean with less, but I don't know how to always best do that, just do not give up on what you believe and care about, as long as you still think they need to be known or helped.

And Disney has never been only about storytelling. The company started by proving that animation could be better than just cartoons, be convincing, moody, emotional, through color, designs, and the animation itself, and through that artwork tell a story in ways that moved an audience just like any other movie. That's how it started and what it has been about.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:43 pm 
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Mike Duster wrote:
But anyway, it seems in some people's opinions, other people's opinions are silly, and so they make fun of them.

Would you rather we just be like Marky and say to him "you shouldn't even speak about the classics on a forum like this" as he did to Wonderlicious? :roll:

Reaction to opinions goes both ways, so if Marky wants to see us respect his, he should respect ours as well instead of parroting on about how we can't see anything or that Disney's restoration work is crap and he can do better with Microsoft Paint. Because honestly, pitting MS Paint against an established company like Lowry Digital, that practically screams "Let's make fun of that opinion!".

Mike Duster wrote:
And Disney has never been only about storytelling.

Obviously not. But when my opinion of a movie rests more on its story and characters than on the look and animation, it's frustrating when someone else keeps harping on about "don't you see? DON'T YOU SEE? You can't see, you must be blind!", as if my opinion is worthless because I'm not focused on the animation.

albert

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:45 pm 
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Escapay wrote:

Anyways, if I may borrow and modify a song from Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Evita" and dedicate it Marky, who even after Wondy's nice long post, still asked "So now you know all this, what do you think about the look, the forgotten shadow, etc yourself?"...

    It's never easy, and you think it strange
    When we try to explain how we feel
    But you don't read our words after all's said and done

    You won't believe us
    All that you see is a cartoon you once knew
    Although it's restored like a diamond
    But it's still zirconia to you

    Disney let it happen, they preserved their films
    Couldn't stay all their life unrestored
    Looking dusty and faded like they've been out in the sun

    So they chose restoration
    Made to look better, not made to look new
    But nothing impressed you at all
    I guess we should expect that from you...

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky
    The truth is most don't think like you
    All through the forum
    It's so frustrating
    And I don't care now
    What you're debating

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky
    The truth is most don't think like you
    All through the forum
    Whining about it all
    It's like talking to
    A stubborn brick wall

    And for others' opinions, for others' views
    You never invited them in
    It was clear to the forum they were the least you desired

    You have delusions
    You give no solutions, you say we can't see
    The answer from us all the time
    "WTF do you want it to be?"

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky
    The truth is most don't think like you
    All through the forum
    It's so frustrating
    And I don't care now
    What you're debating

    Don't patronise Disney fans, Marky
    The truth is most don't think like you
    All through the forum
    Whining about it all
    It's like talking to
    A stubborn brick wall

    Have I said too much?
    There's nothing more I can think of to say to you.
    But all you have to do is look at me to know
    That every word is true

albert



This is utterly hilarious, Escapay! I sang it out loud all the way through!
I just watched Evita the other night with a few friends so the tune to this song is still fresh on my mind. :lol:

And Wondy, brilliant post! I've been reading this thread since the beginning, long before actually registering as a UD member...pretty sure you expressed the majority opinion of the forum.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Also, I just wanted to say that I agree with Marky about the colors on THIS particular movie to a point...but it's the hostile and condescending way he is conveying his opinions as fact to everyone else on this board that ticks me off.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
And Disney has never been only about storytelling. The company started by proving that animation could be better than just cartoons, be convincing, moody, emotional, through color, designs, and the animation itself, and through that artwork tell a story in ways that moved an audience just like any other movie. That's how it started and what it has been about.


I never said they were only about storytelling. But Disney's philosophy is that story comes first. It is THE most important ingredient in their films. Animation before Disney was a string of gags with no real plot. Disney made a lot of innovations in animation, one of which was story. So you can have color, designs, and animation be the most beautiful you've ever seen, but unless you are hanging it in a museum, there better be a good story or nobody will want to watch it again. In contrast, you can find animated films with animation that you might consider ugly, but because of good storytelling they go on to be great films. I think some of the animation in Myazaki films is ugly, but if the story is captivating, it's still good. And look at The Triplets of Bellville. It was nominated for an Academy Award and I think the designs are hideous. My point is that so much emphasis gets place on the colors, the style, and the look of the film. But the real meat and potatoes is the story. However, when great storytelling is combined with great animation, you get classic Disney films that are loved for generations to come.


Last edited by goofystitch on Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:53 pm 
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:) Thanks JustOneBite87.

I actually was inspired to write that after finding this video online: (it's political, so if some smartass wants to make some political remark, do it in another thread)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bh9BmNuqeiQ&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bh9BmNuqeiQ&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

And I agree with goofystitch. For me, the heart and soul of any movie is a good story.

albert

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Last edited by Escapay on Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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