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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 1:52 pm 
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Q: Don’t feel obligated to answer, but I’m discussing whether or not Giselle fits within the idea of a classic or modern princess. I’m wondering where you believe she fits in a post feminist world.

Kevin Lima: As I see it, Giselle is the first of the post modern princesses. Before Rapunzel, before Merida, before Elsa and Anna, Giselle fought to redefine the definition of happily ever after. Yes, she pursues love, but learns that the love of self must always come first.
Source: https://twitter.com/GoofyMovieDir/statu ... 0600830981

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 6:12 pm 
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Giselle learning about divorce was always my favorite part of the story, really. That's part of the reason I love "That's How You Know" so much, because it shows love as something that's harder than it's depicted in other movies and how it's a continual thing instead of a they-get-married-the-end kind of deal.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:08 am 
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^ Yes, I love the more realistic representation of relationships in
Enchanted , as well. And her "I'm angry!" scene. I love the growth we see in her.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:40 pm 
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I never liked the angry scene myself as funny as it was to see in theaters. I think Disney Duster said this multiple times before, but it felt bizarre to express this notion that no fairy tale or fantasy character has ever felt angry before. Especially when in the classic Walt films themselves, we've seen Snow White and Cinderella express anger, annoyance, and disapproval. Not to mention other classic heroines like Alice and Wendy.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:57 pm 
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I like Enchanted but to me it seems like he gives Giselle and the film way more credit then they deserve as if Mulan didn't exist before Enchanted. Disney has been subverting the "princess" character and the relationship trope since Beauty and the Beast. It didn't start with Enchanted or Brave or Frozen.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:22 pm 
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It's possible he doesn't consider Mulan a princess especially since the question specifically asked about classic princess versus modern princess. Classic princess would particularly specify the Walt-era princesses that Giselle was most heavily based on whereas by modern princesses, they would have meant the newer ones that came after Giselle. And I agree that Giselle did pave the way for characters like Rapunzel, Elsa, Anna, etc.

And frankly, while Mulan deserves some credit, she's hardly Disney's first feminist heroine. That credit tends to go to Ariel or Belle, and Jasmine, Pocahontas, and especially Esmeralda followed suit. Esmeralda would be better regarded as a feminist icon if Disney did more to promote her and if she was an actual princess.

I think Emma Watson once said that her favorite Disney Princess was Pocahontas who she felt was the strongest princess or something along those lines and considering how feminist she is in real life, I'd be included to give her opinion more merit. Another thing to remember is that Mulan gets credited as the first Disney Princess who defeated her villain which isn't entirely correct either. It ignores that Pocahontas also defeated Ratcliffe and bigotry by preaching a message of tolerance and peace. And even if you don't consider that a physical defeat, Anastasia actually did vanquish her villain one year earlier so she was actually the pioneer in the animated princess beating the bad buy.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:35 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
^ Yes, I love the more realistic representation of relationships in
Enchanted , as well. And her "I'm angry!" scene. I love the growth we see in her.
Yes, so funny! I only wish I had liked Patrick Dempsey as much as Amy Adams. I know he had sort of a thankless job playing the straight man who reacts in the film, but I really liked the daughter. Of course he was better than Susan Sarandon, who was surprisingly awful. I mean, I used to be a big fan of hers pre-Bernie, but her performance in Enchanted was a real dud. Either way, I imagine Dempsey would love if the sequel happened. He doesn't really have much going on since Shonda Rimes pushed him out of Grey's Anatomy, I'm guessing.

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 3:07 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
It's possible he doesn't consider Mulan a princess especially since the question specifically asked about classic princess versus modern princess. Classic princess would particularly specify the Walt-era princesses that Giselle was most heavily based on whereas by modern princesses, they would have meant the newer ones that came after Giselle. And I agree that Giselle did pave the way for characters like Rapunzel, Elsa, Anna, etc.

And frankly, while Mulan deserves some credit, she's hardly Disney's first feminist heroine. That credit tends to go to Ariel or Belle, and Jasmine, Pocahontas, and especially Esmeralda followed suit. Esmeralda would be better regarded as a feminist icon if Disney did more to promote her and if she was an actual princess.

I think Emma Watson once said that her favorite Disney Princess was Pocahontas who she felt was the strongest princess or something along those lines and considering how feminist she is in real life, I'd be included to give her opinion more merit. Another thing to remember is that Mulan gets credited as the first Disney Princess who defeated her villain which isn't entirely correct either. It ignores that Pocahontas also defeated Ratcliffe and bigotry by preaching a message of tolerance and peace. And even if you don't consider that a physical defeat, Anastasia actually did vanquish her villain one year earlier so she was actually the pioneer in the animated princess beating the bad buy.


Yes I agree. I only gave Mulan as the "obvious" example. I actually think Belle as the first one. In this regard I feel like Beauty and the Beast is the first film to give an internal conflict for its characters (The Little Mermaid only mentions it once and disregard it later, the only character with internal conflict is Triton). In addition I feel like Beauty and the Beast was the first one to break old traditional Disney tropes, but it does it subtly and with nuance unlike Frozen's "You can't marry a man you just met. Instead we get "These things take time". And while I don't particularly think that Beauty and the Beast is a "feminist" film, I do think it's an anti toxic masculinity one.

My point being is that while I like Enchanted, I don't think it re envisioned the princess role, I just think it started the "not like previous princesses" princess and "deconstrting" the tropes in a not so subtle and nuanced way, something that probably wouldn't have been done had the Disney Princess franchise not been a thing.


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 4:19 am 
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I agree with both JeanGreyForever and farerb! I actually do like the "I'm angry" scene but I also dislike what it's saying about all the Walt princesses. I also think Ariel was the first feminist princess. Consider that men like Prince Phillip risked his life for love. Ariel did the same thing. Three times actually. Saving Eric from drowning, risking her "life" or freedom to Ursula for a chance to be with him, and then pulling Ursula's hair when she fired a him.

I actually consider Cinderella to have defeated Lady Tremaine, just with the power of the monarchy also aiding her.

I agree with all the rest you said.

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 10:02 am 
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I didn't mention the "I'm angry" scene regarding its humor, just that I like her character growth, that she's allowing herself to feel emotions. I think that Andalasia is obviously kind of a parody of the other princess' kingdoms, so maybe Andalasia is so idyllic that they don't get angry there, or Giselle is so happy that she doesn't...but I personally have never felt that the movie is trying to dig at Snow White, Cinderella, or Aurora.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 1:56 am 
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Well, yes, it is all a parody. And when a parody says "your princess characters never get angry", we wonder if they mean that truthfully, and if they do, that's totally wrong.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 7:02 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
I didn't mention the "I'm angry" scene regarding its humor, just that I like her character growth, that she's allowing herself to feel emotions. I think that Andalasia is obviously kind of a parody of the other princess' kingdoms, so maybe Andalasia is so idyllic that they don't get angry there, or Giselle is so happy that she doesn't...but I personally have never felt that the movie is trying to dig at Snow White, Cinderella, or Aurora.

I don't consider the film a dig at the classics either, it was definitely no Shrek but a loving tribute. However, that anger scene seemed very stereotypical and based on a very narrow-minded view of classic Disney.

Disney Duster wrote:
I agree with both JeanGreyForever and farerb! I actually do like the "I'm angry" scene but I also dislike what it's saying about all the Walt princesses. I also think Ariel was the first feminist princess. Consider that men like Prince Phillip risked his life for love. Ariel did the same thing. Three times actually. Saving Eric from drowning, risking her "life" or freedom to Ursula for a chance to be with him, and then pulling Ursula's hair when she fired a him.

I actually consider Cinderella to have defeated Lady Tremaine, just with the power of the monarchy also aiding her.

I agree with all the rest you said.

I'm glad you think Ariel is the first feminist princess! Although I really do dislike how people dismiss the classic three princesses and don't feel that they could have any feminist qualities whatsoever but as a whole, I think Ariel is definitely the start of a more progressive trend. And yes, it was very empowering to see the princess save her prince not just once, but multiple times. However, I don't quite understand what you mean about "risking her 'life' or freedom to Ursula for a chance to be with him." How exactly did that save him? Just a little confused about that.

And yes, I agree that Cinderella is the first Disney Princess to have defeated her villain. People tend to disregard that though or not see it that way.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 10:41 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
I didn't mention the "I'm angry" scene regarding its humor, just that I like her character growth, that she's allowing herself to feel emotions. I think that Andalasia is obviously kind of a parody of the other princess' kingdoms, so maybe Andalasia is so idyllic that they don't get angry there, or Giselle is so happy that she doesn't...but I personally have never felt that the movie is trying to dig at Snow White, Cinderella, or Aurora.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to misconstrue what you were saying, I just always remember that scene making me laugh, just for how Adams played it like Giselle didn't even know what she was feeling because it was so alien to her. :lol: I thought the film was surprisingly gentle with the Walt princesses considering how there's a lot there to make fun of... "Happy Working Song" is a very kind homage, for example. Although they take from Ariel in the character's design and the wedding dress, I do think Giselle's personality is most like Snow White who didn't even feel human at times, and that sort of condescending baby voice I associate with women of my maternal grandmother's generation (who were young when Snow White was first released) when women weren't supposed to show anger at all except in passive aggressive ways. My mother wasn't like that, thank God.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 12:31 am 
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Yes, the first classic princesses may have feminist traits themselves, but I wouldn't call any of them feminist.

Oh, I messed up. I didn't mean Ariel saved Eric with risking her happy life for love with Eric, but that it was feminist of her to do so, because male characters in fairy tales and heroic stories risked their happy lives for love with females as well.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:01 am 
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You know it is interesting because on the D Files feature on the Blu Ray they were talking about villainous henchmen and talked about the incompetent henchmen and put Flotsam and Jetsam in that group even though, second after Diablo, they were very competent and pretty much got their job done.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:17 am 
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^ True. They accomplished everything Ursula asked of them throughout the film. I think Helga Sinclair is another 'sidekick' to the main villain that is very competent.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 3:43 am 
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Tristy wrote:
You know it is interesting because on the D Files feature on the Blu Ray they were talking about villainous henchmen and talked about the incompetent henchmen and put Flotsam and Jetsam in that group even though, second after Diablo, they were very competent and pretty much got their job done.

I remember that and I didn't understand that either. The D-Files had quite a few errors it seems between this and incorrectly identifying Mary Costa and Ilene Woods.

Disney Duster wrote:
Yes, the first classic princesses may have feminist traits themselves, but I wouldn't call any of them feminist.

Oh, I messed up. I didn't mean Ariel saved Eric with risking her happy life for love with Eric, but that it was feminist of her to do so, because male characters in fairy tales and heroic stories risked their happy lives for love with females as well.

Personally I think Cinderella is but maybe I have a broader definition of feminism.

Oh ok, thanks for explaining because I wasn't sure if there was something I couldn't see. I agree with your statement! I wish others were as generous when it comes to Ariel.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:09 pm 
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I'm not mad at all, Disney've Divinity! That's fine that you find it funny! :tlm: :ariel:

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 3:17 pm 
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:) Thank you.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 3:52 pm 
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Whoa, but I butchered your name! I can't even blame Autocorrect because I was on the computer! Sorry! <3

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