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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:10 pm 
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First Flam-Ham. Unfortunately I can't find the places I saw Disney touting their newest film about a 2-dimensional princess who grows into a full 3-dimensional woman (inside, not physically), but I did find an article written about them with Disney interviews saying "the city transforms her into a real, fully-rounded human being". Anyway, Edward and Giselle fell in love at first sight, and all movies they and their story are based on say that you can fall in love at first sight and have it last forever after. Enchanted says that is not true. Its says either Giselle, and by association, all those princesses, either just thought they were in love but weren't really in love, destroying the truth in the past Disney fairy tales that they knew in their hearts who was for them, forever, from the first moment they saw them, or Enchanted says that Giselle and Edward were in love but it didn't last forever, their love died.

The film says you must get to know someone for a while to love them. Kevin Lima said he wanted to teach girls that instead of letting them think they're in love after a dance or just seeing someone. And Neal, and Flam-Ham, that's not a bad thing to teach, but isn't that destroying a Disney tradition, a Disney ideal of fairy tale true love, not keeping it? If he wanted to teach that, he should have done it differently, perhaps have Giselle not be in love yet, but dream of love, and in Robert she finds love. But she shouldn't fall in fairy tale true love with Edward only to have it be die. The Disney films say magic and dreams can come true in true life. This films says it's just in fairy tale land. And I already explained why the fairy tale land Andalasia is also bad. All the other princesses lived in real places, or at least fantasy kingdoms in real countries.

Flam-Ham, there are good things in Enchanted, you keep talking about the good things in it, but there are bad things in it, things wrong with it, bad things it does to other Disney films and characters, and like most things, it's hard to enjoy the good when it's tainted by the bad. Basically it could be summed up as the good is how Robert is changed, and the bad is how Giselle is changed. Saying fairy tales can happen in real life is good. Saying fairy tales are different from real life, in a movie, where fairy tales are supposed to be depicted as actually happening, real within the movie world, is bad. All movies aren't real! Well, except documentaries, you know.

supertalies, Snow White knew the prince for one day, at the wishing well. She never saw him again until he kissed her. That kiss happened on the second day she saw him, but she was already in love with him after the first day, and ready to marry him. And yes, by all means I believe Cinderella and her prince talked to each other at the ball, as we know the ball went on for a lot longer than we saw, and we saw them going different places. They could've been just silent, thinking, or singing, for that long, but we don't know.

Back to Neal again, like I said, by all means teach girls that love rarely happens like that, and I can see how a princess movie would attract them and be a good vehicle to teach them, but let's not say that it doesn't exist for even the fairy tale characters, okay? Because you know, Giselle and Edward really loved each other and got married and she became a princess and lived happily ever after with Edward oh wait no none of that happened.

All this talk has reminded me of the scene in Cinderella where the Duke talks about the prince knowing in his heart that Cinderella will be his bride, after he sees her. The Duke was making fun of the King for believing that love can happen that way "in real life" because it was only a "pretty plot for fairy tales". So Cinderella said two things, that we are supposed to take these characters as living in real life, and they're true love at first sight is possible in real life.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:27 pm 
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Giselle did live happily ever after - with Robert and Morgan.

Edward got his happily ever after with Nancy.

This film shows you can still have happily ever afters, just sometimes it isn't with your 'love at first sight'.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:05 pm 
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how do you know they didnt get divorcved a year er so from then? I'm half joking, but I dont really think that was the message.


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 Post subject: Enchanted
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:29 pm 
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Well, I think Disney fairy tales say true love at first sight lasts forever after. The only thing keeping Snow White away from her prince was her situation, she still wanted him and to be with him forever. Perhaps not Cinderella, though this could also be summed up to her situation. Perhaps these girls might need a new man...hm, come to think of it these girls never married their princes right away, though Snow White wanted to...hm...

Well, you made me think it could be okay Neal, but I still think it should have been done better. Perhaps Giselle shouldn't have wanted to marry him right away, just thought about him and planned to see him again.

Anyway, this goes along with how I'm half glad Enchanted didn't keep Disney tradition, because then the real Disney fairy tales are better and more serious in comparison. The other bad, Disney fairy tale-destroying aspects of the film still stand.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Well at least this wasn't Shrek and all-out bashed Disney. It still showed that true love exists and people can live happily ever after - even if there were a few bumps in the road.

If this had gone the Shrek route, no one would have ended up with someone to love - they'd all been left face down in the dirt.

It sounds as though Princess and the Frog will deliver the traditional Disney romance you're looking for, so be happy for that!

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 Post subject: Enchanted
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Um...Shrek had the main ogre antagonist who changed and a princess who changed marry and live happily ever after. All the other fairy tale characters lived happily ever after, and it is assumed the princesses still did so with their respective princes.

I never thought the film was very much like Shrek, and I still don't, but there is a review of the film that touches on the problems it has that Shrek would have if Shrek wasn't supposed to be cynical, jaded, and getting jokes in without caring about what it does to the fairy tales, because Dreamworks doesn't own fairy tale classics, but I think it also reveals a lot about the problems of this film I pointed out, like how the film should've layed off on saying fairy tales are cheesy, simple, fake, and as 2-D as the animation. No, the review is not my exact thoughts, but I think it may give you an idea of what I'm talking about from another person. I really don't agree with his last statement about the musical numbers showing fantasy mixed with reality, the idea that Giselle can enchant real life is fine and the better kind of thing in the film. The only thing I could say that's wromg is all the princesses already knew they were in love, and Giselle's song asks "How do you know he loves you, how do you know it's true?" Going by how you're supposed to be, you feel it in your heart, dummy!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:51 pm 
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I simply meant that Shrek poops on all that is classic Disney - it has fart, puke, and belch jokes, tosses in some disguised swearing, lots of innuendo, rips classic characters like the three little pigs and Pinocchio to shreds - it's the anti-Disney in every way. Yes, Fiona and Shrek end up together, but that wasn't my point - my point was despite that, the Shrek franchise totally negates what Disney believed in.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:34 pm 
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And still the first (!) Shrek had a lot of heart and a good story. It was creative and very well-done. The dialogue was great and the whole movie was not just about making jokes about Disney, but it still was a fairy-tale story with some morale to it, as the ending shows when Fiona ends up as an ogre.
Of course, the movie made fun of the Disney franchise, but in a nice way that wasn't too offensive and there also weren't that many poop and fart jokes.
Again, I am only talking about the first Shrek movie.

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 Post subject: Enchanted
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:35 pm 
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Flam-Ham, and everybody else, including Neal, I finally found soem of what you were asking for! I found the director of Enchanted talking about how 2-dimensional Giselle and all the Disney fairy tale characters are!

Quote:
AV: Speaking about the relation between animation and live-action, animation is about caricature. How did you deal with that dimension as you directed the movie? I mean, how did you deal with the fact that live characters like Giselle come from animated caricatures, but as the same time have to interact with real people within a real world? How did you direct them in that matter?

KL: Oh, my! That’s a very complex question because it is probably at the heart of why the movie works so well. Part of it was casting, I have to admit. I had to find the right actors, the actors who could invest in the characters, invest in the inner journey of the characters and not judge the characters, you know what I mean? I wanted them to be able to live in the body of an animated character and never look back at their performance while they were acting, and judge them. I did never want Giselle to think of herself, the actress to think of her character as being ridiculous. And one of the wonderful things about Amy is that she hasn’t for a second lost sight of who she is. She embraced the idea that Giselle is a two-dimensional thinker, that she believes in her dreams whole-heartedly. Then, the character grows and learns things about herself and that’s where, I think, the maturity of the movie sets. She doesn’t just stay in that one place through the entire movie. She becomes a fully-formed, three-dimensional woman. And she takes very much sort of the path from the child to the adult, you know. At the beginning of the movie, she’s very simplistic and has a very idealized viewpoint of the world. And as she grows into a human, into a woman, she acquires a much more complex sensibility: she discovers that you can feel feelings and emotions within you, that you can believe two seemingly opposite things at the same time, that you can be angry and happy in the same moment, all those pretty complex emotional states.


http://animated-views.com/2008/enchante ... ris-chase/

The idea that they deliberately made a half-formed character to represent every Disney princess, then grow into a "real person" when Disney always tried to make their humans characters as real as possible is disgusting and wrecks the Disney characters we love.

Like I already said, Walt Disney was originally excited at the amount of depth in the Wicked Queen, and we don't know what other depths and 'complexities" they put into all their characters. You can't say an opinion about characaters is fact in your movie! Let the audience decide don't play these characters as 2-dimensional, don't make them that way on purpose, to play them and their stories for laughs.

Sure, in the animated world you exaggerate and stylize slightly to make it easier to animate, but every movie makes an artistic representation of the real world. WTF Kevin Lima.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:41 pm 
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I think you're reading too far into this. The director's opinion doesn't represent the company's as a whole and does not constitute fact.

That's why there's disclaimers before movies stating commentary on the DVD cannot be held against the company.

So what if this is what Lima said? That doesn't mean it's true or represents how Disney, its animators, or its staff feel about the classic Disney characters.

If the director of Valiant had said "this film is one of Disney's classics canon" - would that have made it true? No.

So just ignore the statements made by Lima and stop reading so far into it.

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 Post subject: Enchanted
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Well, Kevin Lima directed this film that has characters and story representing all the previosu Disney fairy tales and their characters. Andalasia, Giselle, Edward, Narissa, and their fairy tale is supposed to be just like those of the past Disney films. That's what the audience is supposed to think, it's all in the same way as the past Disney fairy tales.

By saying "this is how the other Disney fairy tales are, we made this to be like the other Disney fairy tales" it is wrecking those Disney classics saying they are what they are not. The movie is supposed to be just like those Disney fairy tale movies, a representation of them. And lots of people, though admittedly most of them not as well-read in Disney as us, accept this about the film, and think it really is just like all the previous Disney fairy tale films and how they are, how they are supposed to be.

Anyway, Lima directed the film, and it is pretty safe to assume also directed Amy Adamas, James Marsdan, and Susan Sarandan in his view of the characters. Two-dimensional things that need to change into fully formed real people. So I can hate this film still for these reasons.

I'm still sickened remembering how they said on the DVD Prince Edward was just like all the other Disney princes. He was stupid and vain and more like Gaston. You know, if he just road on a horse and did all the things the previous princes did, okay, yea. But once you deviate from that, making him arrogant, egotistical, pompous, and stupid you can't say "oh he's just like the classic Disney princes". Keep with the tradition, don't break it and still call it keeping with the tradition. If he's his own character that's another matter but don't say he's a combination of all the other princes say he's a new kind of character and make it clear to the audience.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:59 pm 
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k to stop the arguing for a moment......

I randomly bought the Japanese DVD of Enchanted! :D I like the cover art a lot....

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 pm 
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Wow, Poody, that's so much better than the U.S. cover! :o

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:29 pm 
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I like the US cover, but I liked this one because it has the animated Giselle also. :) The second disc is basically the Target exclusive disc..... but it's edited a little differently with a couple of extra shots.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:59 am 
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I was wondering if someone could zip all the super high quality stills from the animated bit and post them here...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:55 pm 
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And I didn't even know it until an hour ago....was watching Wizard of Oz on TBS, it went to a commercial,....scanned the other stations....and Wallla......it was on NBC!


Now Disney needs to air it (Disney Channel) and so does ABC (not ABC Family, they take 100s of commercial breaks).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:57 am 
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You know...one thing has always annoyed me: there was always the rumor that Idina Menzel DID have a song w James Mardsen in the original film, and it was cut at some point. I was watching the making of Enchanted (Becoming Enchanted, on the Target bonus dvd), and I noticed that there IS a brief glimpse of them performing the song in it. So it WAS shot.

WHY THE HECK WAS THAT NOT INCLUDED AS A BONUS ON THE DVD?????


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:02 pm 
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While I was researching Enchanted, I found that there were four cut songs (three with Stephen Schwartz and one with Glenn Slater from an earlier incarnation of the movie).

Opening number (with Glenn Slater)

Quote:
Q: Enchanted was almost shelved, too, right?

Alan Menken: Sometimes projects get funny twists and turns. They are green-lit and then they go back into development. Enchanted was a project like that. I wrote a song for a big opening number and then days before the recording, they pulled the plug on it.
Source: https://d23.com/23-questions-with-alan-menken/

Quote:
Stephen Schwartz: We heard about this movie the title and the concept a long time ago and I for one was extremely covative about trying to get involved with it, because I thought Bill Kelley’s concept was so clever. I had no idea if Disney was even thinking of it at as a musical at all.

Alan Menken: Well, I was actually involved with it about four or five years ago and wrote a an opening number in an earlier incarnation. But then it went back into development…
Source: http://collider.com/stephen-schwartz-an ... enchanted/

Quote:
Q: Has Stephen Schwartz replaced Glenn Slater as the lyricist?

Stephen Schwartz: No. Glenn is working with Alan on several other projects, hence the confusion. At one time, perhaps, it was discussed that he and Alan would do a song for Enchanted before it was to be a more heavily "musicalized" project, but once Alan was brought on for the present movie, I came with him.
Source: http://www.stephenschwartz.com/wp-conte ... anted1.pdf


Closing number titled "Enchanted" (with Stephen Schwartz)

Quote:
Oscar winner Alan Menken (Aladdin), who co-wrote Enchanted's musical numbers with lyricist Stephen Schwartz, said that there was a song for Nancy and Prince Edward, Giselle's love from the animated world (played by James Marsden). But it didn't end up in the final cut.

"Stephen was really pushing for concluding the film with a song sequence and something new, not just a little reprise moment," Menken said in a separate interview. "And we wrote a title song called 'Enchanted,' where Edward and Nancy first connect, and then it opens up into a montage. Really, on practical terms, it was just really extremely difficult that late in the game to deliver that kind of song."
Source: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.ph ... 0&id=45452

Quote:
Q: We heard there is an Idina song that may be on the DVD but isn’t in the film?

Stephen Schwartz: Yeah, isn’t that so weird? I kept saying to Kevin, ‘You have Idina Menzel in this movie and she’s not going to sing?’ We did have a closing number which in fact was a title song called ‘Enchanted,’ but what happened was that stylistically by the time we got to that point in that film, because she wasn’t an animated character – it didn’t actually work stylistically for her to sing. So, I actually think Idina is wonderful in the film.

Q: Why not have her sing at the end of the movie in the animated world?

Stephen Schwartz: We talked about it. But the amount of time we would have had to spend with her in the animated world, it didn’t seem justified. There were reasons why practically, tonally and stylistically it didn’t work. And actually, if a different actress was playing the role of Nancy it never would have arisen. It was just because it was Idina, but Idina is a wonderful actress and I think she’s terrific without singing.
Source: http://collider.com/stephen-schwartz-an ... enchanted/

Quote:
Q: I read a rumor online that some cut songs (particularly a title song sung by Idina Menzel and James Mardsen) might be available on the DVD when it is released. Any truth to this rumor?

Stephen Schwartz: There was indeed a title song that closed the film that was replaced by "Ever Ever After". I too have heard a rumor that it may be included in the DVD, but I don't know for sure. I don't have a copy of it to post, and am not sure Disney would want me to if I did, so we'll both just have to wait for the DVD.
Source: http://www.stephenschwartz.com/wp-conte ... anted1.pdf


Ballad titled "Enchanted" (with Stephen Schwartz)

Quote:
Q: So, there is a title song called ‘Enchanted’?

Stephen Schwartz: Yes.

Alan Menken: There were two songs. Also, there was an alternative to ‘So Close.’ People were like ‘We love the song, but could you…’ So, I wrote another song called ‘Enchanted.’ But that was a ballad.
Source: http://collider.com/stephen-schwartz-an ... enchanted/


Villain song titled "Nobody Gets in My Way" (with Stephen Schwartz)

Quote:
Alan Menken: There was a lot of discussion about that sequence. At one point, we wrote a Queen Narissa song. We wanted to maybe have Narissa enter with a song called 'Nobody Gets in My Way.'

Stephen Schwartz: I still would have liked to. I still think we should have done something for her … We were going to do like ["West Side Story's" pre-climax number] "Tonight’s Quintet."
Source: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/extende ... 7/11/x.htm

Quote:
Q: What was the Narissa song?

Alan Menken: She’s walking down the street and says “Nobody Gets in My Way.” It was a real rock raver. It would have been great for Susan Sarandon, but you know, each musical defines itself based on the medium, based on what you’ve written before and how they all balance out. So yes, a villain number is a very valuable thing to have but if you look at most musicals, one way or another there’s an antagonist number.
Source: http://www.craveonline.com/entertainmen ... lain-songs

Quote:
Q: Was there any idea of giving Queen Narissa a song?

Stephen Schwartz: Yes. In fact, Alan and I wrote a song for her entrance into New York called "Nobody Gets in My Way", but Kevin Lima didn't go for it. It's one of the few places I disagree with him. I still think she should have had a song and I like the one we came up with.
Source: http://www.stephenschwartz.com/wp-conte ... anted1.pdf

Quote:
Q: I found it fascinating that you said you had written a song for Queen Narissa's character for her entrance into NYC; is there any chance we could hear or at least see some of the lyrics for it? It did seem like Narissa's character was a little underdeveloped (as compared to the others at least).

Stephen Schwartz: Here is the lyric (I thought Alan's music for it was pretty cool, too). I don't know how far it goes towards further developing her character, but I thought it would be a fun moment. I can see how its coming (pardon the play on words) so close to "So Close" might be too much like a full-out "musical". But though I do like the solution director Kevin Lima came up with and I like the background chorus singing magic chanting with all the made-up words as she arrives, I still sort of miss having a "villain's song". This song is for Narissa, but the intention is that it will be sung by a pop singer (with back-up vocals) on the soundtrack, and Narissa will sing along with or mouth some of the lines.
Source: http://www.stephenschwartz.com/wp-conte ... anted1.pdf

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:56 pm 
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WOW! Good find Sotiris! I had no idea about any of that (except that Idina was supposed to sing a song). All of that sounds like it could have been great but Kevin Lima may have known what he was doing with all the songs.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:14 pm 
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Here's the complete NOBODY GETS IN MY WAY. LOVE it! Why didn't they put the in? Narissa needed a song anyway

Quote:
NEON ON BLACK LEATHER
STRIDING DOWN THE STREET
YOU SEE ‘EM YOU BETTER DUCK (DUCK!)
DUCK AND RUN FOR COVER
BLOOD POUNDING, I NEVER
FELT SO STRONG A BEAT
MAY I SUGGEST, BOY, YOU RUN (RUN!)
RUN ON HOME TO MOTHER
I'D THINK YOU'D RECOGNIZE A WITCH
WHEN YOU'VE SEEN HER
AND KNOW THESE MEAN STREETS JUST
GOT A LITTLE MEANER
NOBODY, NOBODY GETS IN MY WAY
IF YOU WANT TO SEE TOMORROW
I'M HERE TO TELL YOU, IT'S HELL YOU WILL PAY BETTER HEED WHAT I SAY
OR DON'T TO YOUR SORROW
I'VE HAD A BAD DAY
AND NOBODY GETS IN MY WAY!
TONIGHT IS MY HOUR
WATCH ME STRUT MY STUFF
WHO IS THIS BEAUTY IN BLACK? (WHO?)
A WOMAN ON A MISSION
I'M FEELING MY POWER
GOT MORE THAN ENOUGH
THERE'S ONLY ONE THING I LACK (WHAT?)
ANY INHIBITION
SO MAY I RECOMMEND SELF-PRESERVATION? I'VE ALWAYS BEEN SO BAD (BAD!)
AT HANDLING FRUSTRATION
NOBODY, NOBODY GETS IN MY WAY
IF YOU WANT TO SEE TOMORROW
I'M HERE TO TELL YOU, IT'S HELL YOU WILL PAY BETTER HEED WHAT I SAY
OR DON'T TO YOUR SORROW
HOW ROUGH CAN YOU PLAY?
‘CAUSE I'LL PUSH IT TOO FAR, OH,
I'VE HAD A BAD DAY
AND NOBODY (NOBODY!)
NOBODY (NOBODY!)
NOBODY GETS IN MY WAY!

http://www.stephenschwartz.com/wp-conte ... anted1.pdf


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