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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:45 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
I know that you think her killing people instantly in one sweep would be a sign of her being pure evil, but remember this is a Christian-based concept of evil. And Christianity teaches that evil, first of all, isn't as powerful as good, and second of all, that evil doesn't directly kill. Evil makes people do evil things, or whatever.

I guess that true as that movie really heavily christain based. I'll give you points on that.

Disney Duster wrote:
Maleficent just doesn't seem to be able to kill with her staff. Her lightning can hurt people, but she needs a curse or a dragon-form to kill, it seems. Or she could just be having fun.

Then when the faires said she "too powerful" You would assume she can kill whether staff or anything.
Disney Duster wrote:
AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT, MOST IMPORTANTLY: Maybe she could kill instantly, but didn't want to. She wants to TORTURE the King and Queen for not inviting her. Think about it. You live 16 year waiting for your child to die. Every happy moment of seeing your child giggle or learn her first words is crushed knowing she will never live past 16.

problem was that the faries change it to a sleep instead. So while the curse it self still isn't the greatest, it's better than a death curse. So the worries is more relaxed. Besides Malificant seems to be the one "tortured" in which she has to waste her time searching for the baby in "wrath and frustration"

That and I think I read too much Koroshiya Ichi and Berserk in what torture probably means.....
Disney Duster wrote:
And with her being their only daughter, and with them having difficulty to get a daughter in the first place (they prayed for a child for a long time before they got her), that's torture.

I thought Sex did that? :?
Disney Duster wrote:
And in my opinion, torture is way more evil than instant, quick death.

True but depends on what kind of torture you're talking about. Also killing can be worse than torture too depending on


Lazario wrote:
Okay. But I disagree. And like I was trying to say, she was still very effective. People loved her. Still do.

People love her, but does that means she qualitfies as an excellent villian?

People love Sponge Bob, does that qualitfies as an excellent fictional character?

Lazario wrote:
I need to ask you a question - are you looking for literary qualities in these characters? Because I think she succeeds based on personality and style of the production. I think maybe your expectations might be too high.


Maybe my expectations are bit too high since I love fiction and looking ing different character's traits and depths and fact that I'm judging this based on disney film(which is family orinated). But never less if i'm going make a judgement on something than I will.

Lazario wrote:
Wonderful... if only the movie mattered more, I might care. Sorry.

You're the one who disagreed with my list so, I'm providing you reason Why I thought so.


Lazario wrote:
Well, I'm not the one challenging classic villains.

Challenging? All I was doing was stating why I didn't fond Malificant a great villian. You're the one who jump the gun over my opinion.

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 Post subject: Maleficent
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:49 pm 
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Super Aurora wrote:
I guess that true as that movie really heavily christain based. I'll give you points on that.

Thank you.

Super Aurora wrote:
Then when the faires said she "too powerful" You would assume she can kill whether staff or anything.

Well, when King Stephen asked if the curse could be undone, they said "Maleficent's powers are far too great", but that just meant for the curse to be undone. That didn't mean she had absolutely limitless power.

Super Aurora wrote:
problem was that the faries change it to a sleep instead. So while the curse it self still isn't the greatest, it's better than a death curse. So the worries is more relaxed. Besides Malificant seems to be the one "tortured" in which she has to waste her time searching for the baby in "wrath and frustration"

I never even thought about her being tortured! You get big points for that! But she didn't foresee that happening. I believe Maleficent is pure evil and she wanted to torture the King and Queen for not inviting her. If she killed the baby there, they wouldn't have had time to love her and see her grow up, so if they loved her for 16 years and then she died, it would be more painful than a death after they only had her a few days. But she didn't foresee the curse being changed, so her plan backfired. Just because her plan backfired, it doesn't mean she is less evil. It might be the whole Christianity thing, saying evil is powerful but good will find some loophole or way to conquer it.

Super Aurora wrote:
True but depends on what kind of torture you're talking about. Also killing can be worse than torture too depending on

Agreed. It depends.

Disney Duster wrote:
And with her being their only daughter, and with them having difficulty to get a daughter in the first place (they prayed for a child for a long time before they got her), that's torture.

Super Aurora wrote:
I thought Sex did that? :?

It is suggested that they had sex, but they couldn't make a baby. After praying, either through God, or just a coincidence, they finally got a baby after keeping at it (having sex and praying).

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 Post subject: Re: Maleficent
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:29 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Super Aurora wrote:
Then when the faires said she "too powerful" You would assume she can kill whether staff or anything.

Well, when King Stephen asked if the curse could be undone, they said "Maleficent's powers are far too great", but that just meant for the curse to be undone. That didn't mean she had absolutely limitless power.

Not saying she has unlimited powers.(no way she's that powerful. The Genie stronger than her. lol) but i'm saying is that if she really are threat people deem her as, than you would expect her to have the capability to kill someone easily. Again she didn't for sake of the damn plot.
Disney Duster wrote:
I never even thought about her being tortured! You get big points for that!
Thank you.

Disney Duster wrote:
But she didn't foresee that happening.

I wonder that really as the fairies said "Malificant knows everything" and they try to find something that she wouldn't know of. Either she knew the fairies would undo the curse for her plan #2, or she just couldn't bring her self to kill someone outright in the begininng. You would think and especially from her that a little curse means nothing as there are countermeasurements around it unlike death.
Disney Duster wrote:
I believe Maleficent is pure evil and she wanted to torture the King and Queen for not inviting her. If she killed the baby there, they wouldn't have had time to love her and see her grow up, so if they loved her for 16 years and then she died, it would be more painful than a death after they only had her a few days.

That's the point. If she had killed her right from begininng, the King and Queen would still "suffer" since they lost what they prayed to god so much for. The 16 yrs wait for curse to begin, give them the chance change fate.

Disney Duster wrote:
But she didn't foresee the curse being changed, so her plan backfired. Just because her plan backfired, it doesn't mean she is less evil. It might be the whole Christianity thing, saying evil is powerful but good will find some loophole or way to conquer it.

That why I hate that whole Christianity thing. Too boring and repetive. It's a notion for escaping from reality rather than faceing it.

Disney Duster wrote:
And with her being their only daughter, and with them having difficulty to get a daughter in the first place (they prayed for a child for a long time before they got her), that's torture.

Super Aurora wrote:
[I thought Sex did that? :?

It is suggested that they had sex, but they couldn't make a baby. After praying, either through God, or just a coincidence, they finally got a baby after keeping at it (having sex and praying).[/quote]
No offence, and this may be family movie but I still don't believe that practice praying for sex.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:09 am 
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you know she might not have the power to kill. only the power to lead them to their death hence the curse. and she might still have some virtues since killing a baby is more crime than killing a 16 year old so she must value that one. and she probably doesn't know everything since they were just saying how smart she is, sort of like people saying all gangsters are black. okay that was a weak one but a smart person can still be wrong like me. i'm a smart person and i get things wrong but that doesn't make me stupid. and maybe the queen became the new virgin mary :lol: .

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:14 am 
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Super Aurora wrote:
Lazario wrote:
Okay. But I disagree. And like I was trying to say, she was still very effective. People loved her. Still do.

People love her, but does that means she qualitfies as an excellent villian?

People love Sponge Bob, does that qualitfies as an excellent fictional character?

No, you're right about that. But perhaps they see something you don't. Just perhaps...


Super Aurora wrote:
Maybe my expectations are bit too high since I love fiction

You might love it more than I do. That might give you a point or two there.

But I love villains. And I have always loved Maleficent. And I happen to think she's a fantastic villain. And like I said before, I know quite a few people agree with me.


Super Aurora wrote:
Lazario wrote:
Well, I'm not the one challenging classic villains.

Challenging? All I was doing was stating why I didn't fond Malificant a great villian. You're the one who jump the gun over my opinion.

That might be true to some extent. I'm sure I wasn't the first to question what you were saying about her. I just tried to understand what you meant. Hence me asking you why your expectations were so high.

And I usually try to prove people wrong. That is true. But I'm not sure I can ever do that in regards to Disney films. One either takes it for what it's worth or tries to discredit it. And Sleeping Beauty is a truly standout Disney animated film. Maleficent was a big part of why that is. I hope, just for argument's sake, that you know just how many people really like her and for at least 1 reason.

Are you a big fiction reader?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:15 am 
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Lazario, Super Aurora please stop disagreeing about Male because if you like her you like her but if you don't you don't and nobody can change that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:23 am 
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True, but a debate is always interesting! Maleficent seems to be one of those villains upon whom opinions are fiercely divided.

It's easy to see why Maleficent is so popular - in short, she's the sort of character you could describe as 'uber-cool!!!!1!!!', besides which she's got absolutely brilliant voicing, design and animation. On the other hand, I feel she pales in comparison to the Queen, Lady Tremaine and Cruella De Vil because she is not written terribly well. She doesn't push her story forward as much as the others. I never get the feeling that she's the driving force of the story.

So, while she's the most powerful, she doesn't seem as dangerous. In 'Snow White', you know that the Queen is relentless and will not stop until her unintentional rival is dead, and thus must be killed herself; in 'Cinderella', you know that, whenever Lady Tremaine comes onscreen, Cindy is in trouble; in 101 Dalmatians, the impression is given that, if Cruella so much as touches the dogs, they are going to die. Tht's why I think they are Disney's three greatest villainesses; they are not only great characters, but they are perfectly integrated into their story, intense, powerful and relentless. I just never got that feeling with Maleficent.

On the whole, 'Sleeping Beauty' isn't terribly well written (Disney presumably realised this problem, which is why many feel the next feature, '101 Dalmatians' is one of the best, story-wise). The only part of the film where I felt Maleficent was as intense as Queenie, Tremaine and Cruella is the final sequence, where she tries to stop Philip escaping, and transforms into the dragon.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:25 pm 
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she didn't fair that well in Kingdom Hearts either even though you had to fight her three times in the series.
and who do you consider the three greatest villains' that are guys?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:56 pm 
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Disneyfreak1990 wrote:
Lazario, Super Aurora please stop disagreeing about Male because if you like her you like her but if you don't you don't and nobody can change that.

I know you'll probably think this is me fighting with you (it's nothing of the sort) but you're not being helpful. We're discussing, not "fighting."

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:29 pm 
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and i said disagreeing not fighting.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:18 pm 
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Oh yeah. You did.
Withdrawn. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:42 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
No, you're right about that. But perhaps they see something you don't. Just perhaps...

Magic Mirror's example above is closest reason to what I'm talking about.

Lazario wrote:
Super Aurora wrote:
Maybe my expectations are bit too high since I love fiction

You might love it more than I do. That might give you a point or two there.


Yea I don't just sit and only watch Disney movies. I watch/read fantasties, sci fiction, Manga, anime, Comics, etc So I learn and grasp understanding of all kinds of villians, heros, etc When I compared Mali to all other villian I've seen she really low in that account.

Lazario wrote:
But I love villains. And I have always loved Maleficent. And I happen to think she's a fantastic villain. And like I said before, I know quite a few people agree with me.

And that's fine with me. What I'm saying was what I believe and was tryying to give you reason why I didn't fine her so great after you question my choice.

Lazario wrote:
Super Aurora wrote:
Lazario wrote:
Well, I'm not the one challenging classic villains.

Challenging? All I was doing was stating why I didn't fond Malificant a great villian. You're the one who jump the gun over my opinion.

That might be true to some extent. I'm sure I wasn't the first to question what you were saying about her. I just tried to understand what you meant. Hence me asking you why your expectations were so high.

Actually you were the first to be shock about it. hence why the debate started.
Lazario wrote:
And I usually try to prove people wrong. That is true. But I'm not sure I can ever do that in regards to Disney films. One either takes it for what it's worth or tries to discredit it. And Sleeping Beauty is a truly standout Disney animated film. Maleficent was a big part of why that is. I hope, just for argument's sake, that you know just how many people really like her and for at least 1 reason.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Sleeping Beauty(hence username) but even I acknowledge where the fault is in the movie. Like Magic Mirror said, it in Malificant.

That and all villians are usually driving force in a movie. That usually key element in a story. Without the villian, the progoganist has nowhere to go or do.
Lazario wrote:
Are you a big fiction reader?

Yes I am as I've said up above. My favorite is Berserk(look at avatar).

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 Post subject: Maleficent
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:51 pm 
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Super Aurora wrote:
Not saying she has unlimited powers.(no way she's that powerful. The Genie stronger than her. lol) but i'm saying is that if she really are threat people deem her as, than you would expect her to have the capability to kill someone easily. Again she didn't for sake of the damn plot.

And again, I'm saying, it wasn't nessecarily just for plot. She thought it was going to be the evilest thing she could do. She prefered torture over quick death. If the princess died at 16, not only would it be more painful because she was loved for so long, but her parents would think about all the things she could have done had she lived past 16. Besides, she didn't have that much time to plan it all out, I'm sure, with the celebration happening about as soon as the baby was born. Disney may want to present their evil as flawed.

Super Aurora wrote:
I wonder that really as the fairies said "Malificant knows everything" and they try to find something that she wouldn't know of. Either she knew the fairies would undo the curse for her plan #2, or she just couldn't bring her self to kill someone outright in the begininng. You would think and especially from her that a little curse means nothing as there are countermeasurements around it unlike death.

Yes, but when the fairies said "Maleficent knows everything", the fact that Maleficent didn't know where Aurora was disproves that. The fairies don't know everything, either.

And also, after Merryweather said that Maleficent knew everything, Fauna said, "Oh, but she doesn't dear. Maleficent doesn't know anything about love, or kindness, or the joy of helping others." Perhaps Maleficent is so blinded by evil, she can't predict anything nice happening. When she placed the curse, she might also have been blinded by anger at not being invited, so she couldn't predict something nice counterracting her evil, like changing the curse.

Super Aurora wrote:
That's the point. If she had killed her right from begininng, the King and Queen would still "suffer" since they lost what they prayed to god so much for. The 16 yrs wait for curse to begin, give them the chance change fate.

I'll give you that, but it's irrelevent because she wanted to do the most evil thing possible, and wasn't thinking of how it could backfire, for the reasons I already have stated. Disney might want her flawed (since they want evil to be flawed), she was too evil to see anything good happening, etc.

Disney Duster wrote:
It is suggested that they had sex, but they couldn't make a baby. After praying, either through God, or just a coincidence, they finally got a baby after keeping at it (having sex and praying).

Super Aurora wrote:
No offence, and this may be family movie but I still don't believe that practice praying for sex.

I didn't mean they prayed for sex! I meant that they had sex, and when they kept trying and the Queen never got pregnant, they prayed to get pregnant, and they kept praying as they kept having sex, until finally they had a child. But the movie actually says: "In a far away land long ago lived a King and his fair Queen. Many years had they longed for a child and finally their wish was granted. A daughter was born, and they called her Aurora." So it doesn't say they prayed, but they wished, hoped, wish is almost the same as praying.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:42 pm 
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I really don't think Maleficent hurts the movie at all. She was just de-emphasized somewhat. That's actually a really classic trick of filmmaking. To keep the threat offscreen as much as possible, to make them scarier and more unpredictable. And Maleficent is a really well-done villain in that regard. Think about her appearence in the cottage when her and the demon/goblin guards snatch Prince Phillip and at that point in the movie how long she had been kept offscreen. So when Phillip knocks on the door and someone answers, I don't know about you, but I was really nervous. And before you are given a second to think- wait, hasn't everyone left the cottage(?) - boom, chaos and havoc erupt onto the screen. Yeah, it's pretty lowkey, but it made an impression on me. A big one. And this was 1 of several great moments that served to make Maleficent, if nothing else, a very effective villain.

And don't even get me started on that scene with Aurora alone in the castle room when a faint hint of Maleficent's presence appears. I could write 10 paragraphs alone on the effectiveness of that sequence.

You're probably right that Maleficent, separated from the art and set-pieces of the film, is a weak villain. In theory. But the film shows through and through that she was a very powerful piece of the film itself. In effect, she serves the film and the film serves her. The film is an experience. And in that regard, again, Maleficent was not really weak.

Basically - you're thinking too much. Think too much while watching a Disney movie and you won't be able to feel it. A lot of Disney movies work on your emotions. You have to feel them for them to work properly. And Sleeping Beauty is a true fantasy movie. Less adventuristic, less romantic (in most ways), less dramatic (in some ways). And a little more creepy - which I adore.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:00 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
I'll give you that, but it's irrelevent because she wanted to do the most evil thing possible, and wasn't thinking of how it could backfire, for the reasons I already have stated. Disney might want her flawed (since they want evil to be flawed), she was too evil to see anything good happening, etc.


That what made me bored about the whole ordeal. It's too simple and one dimensional. But as Lazaro said, I maybe thinking too much into things. Especially for a Disney film.
Disney Duster wrote:
I didn't mean they prayed for sex! I meant that they had sex, and when they kept trying and the Queen never got pregnant, they prayed to get pregnant, and they kept praying as they kept having sex, until finally they had a child. But the movie actually says: "In a far away land long ago lived a King and his fair Queen. Many years had they longed for a child and finally their wish was granted. A daughter was born, and they called her Aurora." So it doesn't say they prayed, but they wished, hoped, wish is almost the same as praying.


I know what you're saying. i was joking around about the subject.

Lazario wrote:
And don't even get me started on that scene with Aurora alone in the castle room when a faint hint of Maleficent's presence appears. I could write 10 paragraphs alone on the effectiveness of that sequence.
I admit I did love that scene alot but one problem with it. If it was a curse, then Aurora should of been going to it on it's own. Fact that Malificant had to lure Aurora to a spinning wheel and even crate the spinning wheel defeat the purpose of the curse as an mystical force.

Lazario wrote:
You're probably right that Maleficent, separated from the art and set-pieces of the film, is a weak villain. In theory. But the film shows through and through that she was a very powerful piece of the film itself. In effect, she serves the film and the film serves her. The film is an experience. And in that regard, again, Maleficent was not really weak.

lol, the story seems to be all about the faries. Title should of been "The Three Little Fairies and the Big Bad Fairy"

Lazario wrote:
Basically - you're thinking too much. Think too much while watching a Disney movie and you won't be able to feel it. A lot of Disney movies work on your emotions. You have to feel them for them to work properly. And Sleeping Beauty is a true fantasy movie. Less adventuristic, less romantic (in most ways), less dramatic (in some ways). And a little more creepy - which I adore.

True I am thinking too much into things. That's what happen when I read something like Guin Saga or Berserk.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:15 pm 
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I'd probably argue that Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Bambi and a few others manage to be much creepier than Sleeping Beauty. Maleficent, along with the Witch in Snow White, is definitely one of Disney's most dramatic creations, but she's far from the darkest Disney Villain, in my opinion.

She's visually gothic and shadowy, but, at the end of the day, she's doing what she's doing because of not being invited to a party. Whether or not this can be traced back to pride, rivalry with the good fairies or a need for something to do, it pales in comparison to skinning your enemies and wearing them as trophies, or revelling in the heart of your enemy stopping. Maleficent's just not that intense for me. There's no moment with her that matches when Stromboli yells 'Firewood!' and hurls the axe into the puppet.

I've got to agree that most of her sequences in Sleeping Beauty are very good! But in none of them did she come across as creepy as fellow villainesses the Queen, Lady Tremaine and Cruella.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:31 pm 
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I don't understand why people would want to see anything dark and creepy in Disney films. That's what Japanese animation is for. And, in the right context, many Disney films are quite dark compared to the toddler-frienldly image people associate them with.

The story of Sleeping Beauty is very simple to begin with, and in that context, I think Maleficent is an excellent villain, and I couldn't wish for anything more. Eleanor Audley's voice acting alone makes me shiver every time I watch the film. Perfect, perfect.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:44 pm 
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There's a difference between being dark and being inappropriate for children, I think. I'm of the opinion that 'dark and creepy' is an essential aspect of children's/family entertainment! :lol: Surely I can't be the only one who looks back on the Daleks, books by Road Dahl and, indeed, villains such as the Queen and Cruella De Vil with fondness?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Quote:
I don't understand why people would want to see anything dark and creepy in Disney films. That's what Japanese animation is for.
In movies like Disney's, there's gotta be a dark and creepy side. You can't envision a plot of good and evil without making the evil side be "dark and creepy." Sure, Disney has its limits, but restricting the evil too much makes the good seem less "good."

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:48 pm 
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you know what scene scared me the most with Male? the whole leading Aurora to the spindle because of the music, the lights going out and Male just appearing in the fireplace and dissappearing.
one thing that's always got me about her. how is she a fairy? she doesn
t have wings or a wand,though the staff could count, and she doesn't really have that fairy flare, not even the dark fairy flare. she seems more like a witch/enchantress than an evil fairy.

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members i like:Jasmine1022, Lazario(when he's in a good mood), Escapy, Prudence, Blackcauldron85, Anthony, and Mason Ireton.
Members i dislike: Lazario(when he's in a bad mood).


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