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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:12 pm 
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Who's this Jane Fowler? Did they call her in to do movement for them, or they referenced her from video footage? What? How do you know?


The Disney Archives (http://disney.go.com/vault/archives/villains/maleficent/maleficent.html) mention that 'dancer Jane Fowler shared live-action reference duties for Maleficent'. I've found no other mention of Jane Fowler but, I imagine that, as a dancer, she was used to give Maleficent that extra touch of majesty and elegance, while Eleanor Audley (who also donned full Maleficent garb) supplied more inspiration for facial characteristics and so forth. There are photos of Eleanor Audley in costume on the Sleeping Beauty DVD, but the photo below doesn't look like her to me, so must be of Jane Fowler:

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It's weird, though, how all the really threatening villains end up transforming into some giant monster at the end. That probably really helps with the girls though, 'cause it's hard to visually support stabbing a woman through the chest. Unless they're frighteningly ugly already, of course (we don't like ugly people). The deleted ending for TLM, for example, was very disturbing. To me, at least.


It seems to have been a common trait ever since the Queen's transformation into the Witch. Sometimes the transformation is still there but not quite so literal; Cruella and Ratigan let pure rage take over in their respective climaxes, and become noticeably more monstrous. I think Yzma's transformation into the completely unfrightening pussycat pokes fun at the 'villain climax transformation'. Similarly, the 'giant trampoline' pokes fun at the common characteristic of villains 'falling to their doom'.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:22 pm 
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Maleficent is better looking :P
i like the whole villains' changing into something since they become what they are in their hearts except Yzma who already looks the way in her heart.
so far we have:
the Queen into the Hag
Stromboli into a meaner version of himself
the Coachman into that ugly face in that one scene when they are talking of Pleasure Island
Tremaine gets that mean look
Lucifer turns into that mean man in Cindy 3
the Queen of Hearts gets that angry gorilla look :lol:
Capt. Hook gets that mean look and the funny scardy cat look
Maleficent turns into the dragon
Cruella De Vil gets that 'devilish' face at the end :evil:
Madem Mim gets all different types in the wizards duel
Shere Khan just gets the natural tiger look
Prince John gets his '"Momma" sucking thumb' look
Madame Medusa gets the mean look
Amos Slade just gets into the hunter look
the Horned King, this is tough but it would be when his personality is meaner
Ratigan gets that monstrous rat look
Ursula is obvious
Gaston gets the mean look also, man alot of these guys get the 'mean look' transformation don't they :roll:
Jafar turns into both a snake and a genie
Oogie Boogie fuses with his house in Kingdom Hearts, that's the closest i've got.
Scar, in kingdom hearts 2 he becomes a heartless later on.
Ratclife also gets the mean look
Frollo gets a look that a holy man shouldn't
Hades just turns red :lol:
Clayton gets the mean look
Morgana just gets angry
finaly we get to Yzma and when she lands on the potion and the smoke comes and we see those eyes some people are like 'not another villain turning into a monster' but then when it clears they're like :o because it's just a cute kitty cat
Rourke turns into that crsytal monster
well that's it for all the transformations of the villains directly and indirectly.

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 Post subject: Maleficent
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:11 pm 
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Diablo would then have a very interesting backstory. Seeeequeeeeel!

And yes, I knew Jafar was inspired by Maleficent, courtesy of Andreas telling me so on the Aladdin DVD.

Disney's Divinity wrote:
It's weird, though, how all the really threatening villains end up transforming into some giant monster at the end. That probably really helps with the girls though, 'cause it's hard to visually support stabbing a woman through the chest. Unless they're frighteningly ugly already, of course (we don't like ugly people). The deleted ending for TLM, for example, was very disturbing. To me, at least.

Interesting! Oh wow, that's very smart. Huh. It could also be that Disney doesn't want any humans getting stabbed, either, because of children, right?

Nice list, and interesting observations, Disneyfreak1990.

Magic Mirror, thank you for the picture. And I never thought that The Emporer's New Groove was wittily paryoding the over-used villain climax. How clever! As Disneyfreak1990 pointed out, that was certainly their intention, as they made the audience think the villain would become something big and scary, but turned her cute and little.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:51 pm 
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Disneyfreak1990 wrote:
the Horned King, this is tough but it would be when his personality is meaner


I guess his eyes turn red. But, I've never understood why that happens in the first place. Can anyone explain that to me?


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:19 pm 
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probably the same reason Hades turns red when he's angry or mad. which brings an interesting fact, Hades turns red when he's mad making him hotter but blue fire is hotter so wouldn't he just be cooling down? :?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:00 pm 
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Disneyfreak1990 wrote:
probably the same reason Hades turns red when he's angry or mad. which brings an interesting fact, Hades turns red when he's mad making him hotter but blue fire is hotter so wouldn't he just be cooling down? :?
From what I read in an interview, animators used orange because it comes across visually more hot when using oranges and reds. If it were based on facts, he'd probably turn purple (which, if I'm not mistaken, is the warmest color of fire). I'm glad they didn't do it that way, because black and purple tends to get overused among villains.

EDIT: Got that wrong. White is the hottest. But blue and purple are up there (although, going from red to blue, that would mean purple would be below blue, so I was wrong about that, too).

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What we see as visible flame is actually energy (photons) being released in the form of light by the oxidation of the fuel. The color of the flame is dependant upon the energy level of the photons emitted. Lower energy levels produce colors toward the red end of the light spectrum while higher energy levels produce colors toward the blue end of the spectrum. The hottest flames are white in appearance.


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I guess his eyes turn red. But, I've never understood why that happens in the first place. Can anyone explain that to me?
Most likely the same reason that Ursula and Cruella have red lines circling the colors of their eyes. During moments of rage and excitement, red clearly expresses their emotions. I guess it's sort of like saying someone "saw red."

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:08 pm 
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i didn't even know fire came in purple :o . i only thought it existed in Harry Potter. well does fire come in green and plaid?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:23 pm 
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if you mix it or burn some chemicals yes

I remember an experiment with chemicals and fire I did in my school some years ago, you can make flames to have different kind of colors

That would be the base for the fireworks


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:46 pm 
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Super Aurora wrote:
She was kinda boring imo. Her motive, her personality, etc. Still was better than Snow White's Queen though.

WHAT?!

Okay... you were probably raised off of the newer Disney movies, so you expect Gaston / Ursula / Jafar every time.

But how could you say she was boring? I think I've said this before on this board, but the older Disney villains were made to represent pure evil. So they're not usually supposed to be funny and crack jokes, or even make complete sense. Maleficent is truly a stand out villain in the crowd. But so was the Evil Queen in Snow White. I prefer her to Snow White's Queen too, but that's just because of that amazing shot in the Phillip in jail scene with those HUGE, scary eyes in the middle of nowhere. Totally unexpected and bone-chilling. That's respect right there.


Chernabog_Rocks wrote:
Slightly Off=Topic.

One thing I've noticed was the music that plays during Maleficents gloating to Phillip in the dungeon is also used in 101 Dalmatians. Well that or music that sounds really similar, I can't remember what part of the movie though, I'll have to rewatch it unless someone knows what part I'm talking about.

Are you sure?? I can hear that music myself in my head right now and I really can't hear it anywhere in 101 Dalmatians. Yes, you're going to have to re-watch those. I have no idea what you mean.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:42 pm 
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the definition of what a villain is has changed in the last 100 years. back then the villains' could send chills down our spine but now it's just a laugh with only one or two great spinetingling villains' every couple years. let's look at the disney ones:
The Queen is ment to send chills and works half the time
Maleficent can really send you those chills
Tremaine sends you the chill of a real person
Stromboli is also one of those real people ones
The Queen of Hearts is a laugh but only because it's wonderland so she wouldn't count
Hook when he's not around Tick-Tock he can kinda send those chills and he would if he wasn't so scared of Tick-Tock
Cruella is the next villain who can be based of a real person chill
Mademe Mim since the whole film pokes fun at the lengend of Camolot she's a laugh
Shere Khan gives you those chills that a tiger might attack you when your young
Prince John is just a laugh riot
Medusa is a combo of both Mim and Cruella in villainy
Horned King can really give you those chills
Ursula, the start of the musical villains which makes them less chilling and more funny :x
Gaston is more a laugh than a villain
Jafar is also a laugh depending on the scene
Scar is neither chilling nor funny
Ratclife is more in the funny department here
Frollo is more in the chilling department
Hades is to comical to be a threat
Shan yu is a little more in the chilling department by a 1% difference
Clayton is a tiny bit more in the chilling daepartment
Yzma starts the whole comical villains from here til probably Rapunzal or The Frog Princess if those villains aren't made to be comical.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:00 pm 
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The amount of terror in a villain is something that seems to have been debated quite a lot at Disney. The Queen in Snow White, particularly in her Witch form, was scary enough to cause some young viewers to wet themselves in fright. British censors considered the film frightening enough for young viewers to have to be accompanied by an adult.
Animators such as Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston, felt that Walt Disney restrained his animators from creating such a terrifying villain again, as they say in their book 'The Disney Villain':

"(The Queen and Witch) turned out to be more frightening than he had anticipated - not that he wanted them to be mild, but he had never had to hold back on the intensity of any character before, and none of them had been criticized from that standpoint. W e believe he was a little upset by the criticism of the film from parent groups, although he never admitted that to us. In any case, he never made another villain that scary, that real, that menacing, and he kept holding us back when we would ask for a stronger villain in any picture. His only argument was that our ideas were not as entertaining as a different type of character would be. He was probably right in that!"

So, as a result, there is normally something either in addition to, or in place of, the terror. Most have entertainment as well as the frightening aspects, while the likes of Maleficent are distant enough from reality not to be taken too seriously. Personally I'd rank the Queen avove Maleficent.

It also often depends on the film - you don't always need an absolutely pure evil villain. In 101 Dalmatians and Cinderella the villains are pure evil, relentless and almost invincible in relation to their opponents, while other stories don't need the villain to be the driving force.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:21 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
Super Aurora wrote:
She was kinda boring imo. Her motive, her personality, etc. Still was better than Snow White's Queen though.

WHAT?!

Lazario wrote:
Okay... you were probably raised off of the newer Disney movies, so you expect Gaston / Ursula / Jafar every time.

Are you kidding me? I find the Couchman A much more successful villian than Malificant ever hope to be. Malificant just isn't one of the greatest villians in my eyes.
Lazario wrote:
But how could you say she was boring? I think I've said this before on this board, but the older Disney villains were made to represent pure evil. So they're not usually supposed to be funny and crack jokes, or even make complete sense. Maleficent is truly a stand out villain in the crowd. But so was the Evil Queen in Snow White. I prefer her to Snow White's Queen too, but that's just because of that amazing shot in the Phillip in jail scene with those HUGE, scary eyes in the middle of nowhere. Totally unexpected and bone-chilling. That's respect right there.

I find her some what weak on villian department in that if she was truly evil, she would of killed the baby strait there and out rather than puttin on a 16 yr curse which got countered, and thus making her have to search out on the girl anyway and waste her time when she can just take on the kingdom during that period of time, since people were so worried over the princess instead.

To me I find these villian really good:

Couchman- As if that grin of his that rivaled the Joker's wasn't enough, he take actual little boys(pedophile?) and get them into donkeys to use for child labor at salt mines. Making the kids lose everything they have and face REALITY.

Frollo- perform genocide of selected type of people(gsypies), make Quasi look like piece of crap and degraded, and has a high sexual lust for with burning desire for Esmeralda

Shan-Yu- Despite appearing very little, it makes him even more effected as a villian, like the coachman, in that when ever he does appear, he perform very realistic and mencing performnce with no mercy.

Horn King- He wins in the chills department. Enough said.

Chernabog- i'm bias on this one lol.

Scar- HE may be from the Lion King which is overrated and is from the "newer generation" as you called up there in you post, but he one of the very few people to go out and do what he need to do to get what he wants, even making him kill his own brother. While you could argue he had the chance to kill Simba as well, he let the Hyenas take that(even though they failed).

I find these villian mencing and interesting in that they really do bring chills yet also give a depth with in how evil they are. Shan Yu only excepting not having enough depth to depict himself, but few of his that do remain is enough to get the picture.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:29 pm 
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To answer Lazario's question, I was thinking of two different scenes. When Pongo and Perdita go to cross the river in 101 Dalmatians, the beginning few seconds of the music sounds similar to when Prince Phillip is fighting Maleficent as a Dragon.

The original scene I was thinking about is when the dalmatians arrive at the Dairy Farm, and that triumphant music plays, it sounds similar to the music that plays when Maleficent shows Phillipe leaving the Forbidden Mt. as an old man, there's that faint triumphant music playing. To me it sounds either the same or very similar.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:44 am 
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Disneyfreak1990 wrote:
probably the same reason Hades turns red when he's angry or mad. which brings an interesting fact, Hades turns red when he's mad making him hotter but blue fire is hotter so wouldn't he just be cooling down? :?

I guess, it's no real "lightening" or warm fire while it's blue, because in the scene where Pain and Panic have these "Hercules-souvenirs", in one shot you can see that his fire throws a shadow...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:55 am 
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Well, Super Aurora, I won't argue with you about Maleficent. Because I just like her. And I know a lot of other people do. And exactly how many villains achieve likability? Fanbase? Okay, that one was a bit of a stretch.

But I would certainly argue if need-be about Snow White's Evil Queen. She is one of the top 5 greatest Disney villains. And I think everyone here will agree.

As far as villains you cited from Disney films after The Lion King, I completely disagree. I don't think even the films themselves (except Pocahontas) made enough of an impression to say so, except with families and Disney completists. So the villains are of even less concern to me. But like I was saying before, if you want to, you can make a pretty convincing case against the older Disney villains with the voice acting 'personality' of newer actors all you want. But, it's just fan inventiveness. The Disney classics have history and that's influence enough to keep them fresh and powerful.

And basically, all Maleficent needs are people who like her. Her presence in Sleeping Beauty was inarguably powerful. Any way you slice it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:23 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
Well, Super Aurora, I won't argue with you about Maleficent. Because I just like her. And I know a lot of other people do. And exactly how many villains achieve likability? Fanbase? Okay, that one was a bit of a stretch.


I'm not saying she horrible, but she isn't as great as people make her out to be.

Again this is based solely on opinions.
Lazario wrote:
But I would certainly argue if need-be about Snow White's Evil Queen. She is one of the top 5 greatest Disney villains. And I think everyone here will agree.

I could argue that is due to the fact that she was Walt's first villian made. I find her too one dimensional.
Lazario wrote:
As far as villains you cited from Disney films after The Lion King, I completely disagree. I don't think even the films themselves (except Pocahontas) made enough of an impression to say so, except with families and Disney completists. So the villains are of even less concern to me.

Frollo seems to be a much more well devopled and fleshed villian than the Queen or Malficant hope to be. No matter how "scary" they seem to be. He doesn't need super powers or transformation to make himself so frighten. It's his moral and idea that is. And those are the real threat of the world. Those are true force of conflicts.

Lazario wrote:
But like I was saying before, if you want to, you can make a pretty convincing case against the older Disney villains with the voice acting 'personality' of newer actors all you want. But, it's just fan inventiveness. The Disney classics have history and that's influence enough to keep them fresh and powerful.

All I'm saying is that some of the disney villians I find are more powerful than others. Having to be an old disney classic or not means nothing here. I dunno what else you want me tell you.

Lazario wrote:
And basically, all Maleficent needs are people who like her. Her presence in Sleeping Beauty was inarguably powerful. Any way you slice it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:53 am 
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i sort of agree with you on maleficent Super Aurora. the part i agree with is the why bother searching for the baby when the kingdom is too worried about where she is. i only have one counter to your why she didn't kill baby Aurora, if she did where would the story be?
and here's one that's been bothering for some time, what would happen if the Coachman took a girl that looked like a boy to Pleasure Island? would she turn into a donkey or what?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:06 am 
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Disneyfreak1990 wrote:
i sort of agree with you on maleficent Super Aurora. the part i agree with is the why bother searching for the baby when the kingdom is too worried about where she is. i only have one counter to your why she didn't kill baby Aurora, if she did where would the story be?
That's true and I did knew that but for an arguement sake. Well Mali could of killed someone like the king or something if she wanted to show how mencing she is. I mean after she cursed the baby and the King says "Seize that creature" She fled when she could of annihilate the soldiers against her.

Disneyfreak1990 wrote:
and here's one that's been bothering for some time, what would happen if the Coachman took a girl that looked like a boy to Pleasure Island? would she turn into a donkey or what?

probably also turned them into donkeys too. wouldn't really care either way.

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 Post subject: Maleficent
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:35 am 
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Super Aurora wrote:
Disneyfreak1990 wrote:
i sort of agree with you on maleficent Super Aurora. the part i agree with is the why bother searching for the baby when the kingdom is too worried about where she is. i only have one counter to your why she didn't kill baby Aurora, if she did where would the story be?
That's true and I did knew that but for an arguement sake. Well Mali could of killed someone like the king or something if she wanted to show how mencing she is. I mean after she cursed the baby and the King says "Seize that creature" She fled when she could of annihilate the soldiers against her.

I know that you think her killing people instantly in one sweep would be a sign of her being pure evil, but remember this is a Christian-based concept of evil. And Christianity teaches that evil, first of all, isn't as powerful as good, and second of all, that evil doesn't directly kill. Evil makes people do evil things, or whatever. Maleficent just doesn't seem to be able to kill with her staff. Her lightning can hurt people, but she needs a curse or a dragon-form to kill, it seems. Or she could just be having fun.

AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT, MOST IMPORTANTLY: Maybe she could kill instantly, but didn't want to. She wants to TORTURE the King and Queen for not inviting her. Think about it. You live 16 year waiting for your child to die. Every happy moment of seeing your child giggle or learn her first words is crushed knowing she will never live past 16. And with her being their only daughter, and with them having difficulty to get a daughter in the first place (they prayed for a child for a long time before they got her), that's torture. And in my opinion, torture is way more evil than instant, quick death.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:33 am 
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Super Aurora wrote:
Lazario wrote:
Well, Super Aurora, I won't argue with you about Maleficent. Because I just like her. And I know a lot of other people do. And exactly how many villains achieve likability? Fanbase? Okay, that one was a bit of a stretch.

I'm not saying she horrible, but she isn't as great as people make her out to be.

Again this is based solely on opinions.

Okay. But I disagree. And like I was trying to say, she was still very effective. People loved her. Still do.


Super Aurora wrote:
Lazario wrote:
But I would certainly argue if need-be about Snow White's Evil Queen. She is one of the top 5 greatest Disney villains. And I think everyone here will agree.

I could argue that is due to the fact that she was Walt's first villian made. I find her too one dimensional.

I need to ask you a question - are you looking for literary qualities in these characters? Because I think she succeeds based on personality and style of the production. I think maybe your expectations might be too high.


Super Aurora wrote:
Frollo seems to be a much more well devopled and fleshed villian than the Queen or Malficant hope to be. No matter how "scary" they seem to be. He doesn't need super powers or transformation to make himself so frighten. It's his moral and idea that is. And those are the real threat of the world. Those are true force of conflicts.

Wonderful... if only the movie mattered more, I might care. Sorry.


Super Aurora wrote:
All I'm saying is that some of the disney villians I find are more powerful than others. Having to be an old disney classic or not means nothing here. I dunno what else you want me tell you.

Well, I'm not the one challenging classic villains.

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