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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:07 pm 
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<center><b>Memorable Villains...who did not make the UD Villains Countdown</center></b>

<img src="http://www.ultimatedisney.com/images/h-k/holes7.jpg">

<b>The Warden (<i>Holes</i>)</b>

Camp Green Lake is a place that is full of contradictions. For starters, there's no lake; it's not a proper correctional facility; and despite the claims of the facilities' "staff", digging holes is not about "building character".

Camp Green Lake is also a place that is run with total cruelty, where the inmates are controlled by oppression. And it's the Warden, superbly played by Sigourney Weaver, who sets this agenda. The Warden behaves like a classic dictator letting others do all the work for her as she wallows in luxury and ruling with a fist of iron. What makes the Warden such a strong villain and effective leader is how she can achieve so much with so little. A pointed, low-key "Excuse me?" does more to unsettle the targets of her displeasure than an uncontrolled rant, common to so many villains in literature, ever would.

It's telling that the only outburst she makes in the film is directed not at the children, but at her highest profile cohort Mr Sir, and it's even more telling that this outburst involves violence. Her frustration isn't with the juvenile inmates, but with the stupidity and incompetence of her lesser partners in crime. Even though she is the Warden, she feels just as trapped at Camp Green Lake as the detainees.

However, by the end of the movie we discover more about the Warden, and we can probably look at her with a little bit of sympathy. She has been trapped at Green Lake, trapped by the traditions of her family ever since she was born. Trapped by an obsession handed down from one generation to another. Perhaps I was wrong in my introduction. Perhaps digging holes does "build character", it was after being forced to dig holes as a child that shaped the Warden's character, and made her repeat the sins of her fathers onto her charges, showing us how weak she really is.

-James Reader (2099net)

<i>Holes</i> DVD Review

<hr>

<img src="http://www.ultimatedisney.com/images/l-o/livecruella.jpg">

<b>Cruella De Vil (<i>101/102 Dalmatians</i>)</b>

While it was the animated Cruella that made the Villains Countdown, this discussion will concern itself with Glenn Close's live-action Cruella De Vil only.

The live-action Cruella always had the shadow of the superb animated villain hanging over her, but Close's excellent performance quickly enabled her to shine and cast her own shadow. In a time when live-action films based on cartoon or comic characters are becoming more and more common, Close is still the only actor to play a cartoon character with real conviction.

In some respects, it's amazing that Disney would make films with a villain as un-politically correct as Cruella De Vil in the late 1990's. But it's the sheer malevolence of Cruella that makes her appealing, and it's to Disney's credit that they kept this for the live-action films. The live-action <i>101 Dalmatians</i> even gave us more of an insight into Cruella's twisted mind than was presented in the animated classic.

But the real reason I prefer the live-action Cruella to the animated version is the direction the character takes in <i>102 Dalmatians</i>. It's an interesting idea, to present us with a totally "cured" (Cru)Ella, and then to show us the decent into her old persona. It's an idea that works so well. It enables Glenn Close to entertainingly camp up her performance and outrageously overact. It enables the film to full of cartoon like visuals, from Cruella's mood intensive hairstyle, to her delusion of a white London covered in black spots. But most importantly, for these reasons and more, it's funny!

It's a shame that by the end of the film, Cruella is nothing more than a victim of endless pratfalls. It undermines the work done earlier in the film, where we were actually allowed to see Cruella with some sympathy and, while not extensive, we were allowed to see some character development as Cruella briefly fought her inner demon.

-James Reader (2099net)

James Reader's Review of the animated 101 Dalmatians

<hr>

<b>Man (<i>Bambi</i>)</b>

In <I>100 Years... 100 Heroes and Villains</I> - one of the more recent of the American Film Institute’s ubiquitous countdown lists - only two Disney characters cracked the top 20 in a 50 place list: the Evil Queen from <I>Snow White</I>, and the unseen, ominous presence known as “Man” from <I>Bambi</I>. Maybe Man only won such a high rank because of his responsibility for a cruel and oft-cited “rite of passage” in childhood - the killing of Bambi’s mother. Doubtlessly, such a traumatizing and absolute act would promptly enlist the faceless villain into film immortality, but I rather admire Man as a villain because of the mood He creates throughout the film as a whole. The fact that Man is unseen just augments His threat to both the characters and the audience, for what is a more primal fear than the (literal) unknown? When Man is dangerously close by, the filmmakers succeed in creating genuine scenes of blind terror, just through the use of color and music alone. Man’s foreboding theme within the score predates <I>Jaws</I> by 33 years! ;-) Overall, Man get big thumbs up from me because of the dark mood His oppressive omnipresence creates. And He isn’t seen once. Damn fine work for a villain!

-Lindsay Mayer (Paka)

<i>Bambi</i> DVD Review

<hr>

<img src="http://www.ultimatedisney.com/images/a-c/coachman.gif">

<b>The Coachman (<i>Pinocchio</i>)</b>

The Coachman, like the other villains in <I>Pinocchio</I>, has a relatively limited presence, but he makes quite an impression with the limited screen time he has. Sporting a deceptively “jovial” character design, the Coachman literally takes on a more frightening edge as he reveals his sinister plans to the fox, Honest John - the man’s demonic face scared the wits out of me as a kid! The man later reveals his truly black heart as he mirthlessly sorts and exports the boys-turned-asses. Methinks the nameless Coachman would be one heck of a CEO were he around today! ;-)

-Lindsay Mayer (Paka)

<i>Pinocchio</i> DVD Review

<hr>

See The UltimateDisney.com Fall 2004 Disney Villains Countdown

It's not too late to send in comments like these on the Disney heroes and heroines that you think might make the site's next countdown, which will hopefully launch at the beginning of next week. Your thoughts can be much shorter and are essentially free-form. Send your comments along with how you'd like to be credited to countdown@ultimatedisney.com at your nearest convenience and your words could appear in the Heroes & Heroines Countdown.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:29 pm 
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Yeah it's shame none of them are in the countddown because i can think of at least 4 that don't belong in the countdown but got in anyway!(Governor Ratcliffe, Madame Mim, Prince John, Madame Medusa).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:01 pm 
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The Sanderson Sisters from Hocus Pocus are quite memorable :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:48 pm 
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I don't think you can consider man being a villian because they're not evil, they're just a part of the life process. However, irresponsible men like the one's in Bambi who forgot to put out there fire, I wouldn't call them evil, just plain stupid. But, I don't think they ever heard of Smokey the bear yet.
Also you never see an actual entity of man, I mean they're there but you don't ever get to see them. However, you do see Bambi fighting with the dog, you could consider them to be villians, but they were doing what they were trained to do. All of the other Disney movies with villians were entities. So I don't know that's just what I think about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:41 pm 
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Timon/Pumba fan wrote:
Yeah it's shame none of them are in the countddown because i can think of at least 4 that don't belong in the countdown but got in anyway!(Governor Ratcliffe, Madame Mim, Prince John, Madame Medusa).
Well, I agree about the other 3, but I thought Madame Medusa was an overall good villain. An underappreciated one, but a good one all the same. If there were a contest for villain/esses, I'd think a woman who threatened a little girl's life for the sake of a diamond would be up there. And she doesn't completely lose herself in stupid features (like Mim's insanity, John's thumbsucking, and Ratcliffe's poor imitation of good will). In fact, while the other three villains have threatening qualities, Medusa's the only one to give off a truly menacing feeling.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:46 pm 
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:up: Great reads 2099net and Paka! :D
I think those villains (most particularly, The Coachman and The Warden) should've made the tops. :headshake:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:52 pm 
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RJKD23 wrote:
The Coachman and The Warden should've made the tops.

Yeah, I'll have to agree with you there. From what I can tell from his picture, he kinda looks like a bastard who happens to be fat. I haven't seen Pinocchio in such a long time, I forgot all about him.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:55 pm 
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Zoltack wrote:
RJKD23 wrote:
The Coachman and The Warden should've made the tops.

Yeah, I'll have to agree with you there. From what I can tell from his picture, he kinda looks like a bastard who happens to be fat. I haven't seen Pinocchio in such a long time, I forgot all about him.

Actually, the animals surrounding him in the picture above...that's what he is. ;) In the words of a little kid: "He's such a meanie!"

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:31 pm 
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Coachman should def be in the tops. Half the cast in Pinocchio are villians anyways: Coachman, Foulfellow, Gideon, Monstro, Stromboli... thats alot of villianous schemes! :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:35 pm 
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Ahh... there those write-ups are! :lol:

So I'm setting a good example for the UD n00bs? Go me! :P Hehe... I'm especially heartened - judging from the replies so far - to see the Coachman get some credit and support. Or at least that people refer to the character's "name" correctly! ;)


Zoltack wrote:
I don't think you can consider man being a villian because they're not evil, they're just a part of the life process. However, irresponsible men like the one's in Bambi who forgot to put out there fire, I wouldn't call them evil, just plain stupid. But, I don't think they ever heard of Smokey the bear yet.
Also you never see an actual entity of man, I mean they're there but you don't ever get to see them. However, you do see Bambi fighting with the dog, you could consider them to be villians, but they were doing what they were trained to do. All of the other Disney movies with villians were entities. So I don't know that's just what I think about it.

Well, you may be correct in pointing out the "villain" terminology... Man isn't exactly a villain, but they are the antagonist in the film. The UD countdown was meant to honor, more precisely, the antagonists of Disney films, so Man would most definitely count. :) And a villain/antagonist/whatever doesn't have to be shown to be a tangible threat, either. In fact, it's arguably more effective to use an antagonist who is felt, more than seen, because it taps into the viewer's deeply ingrained, instinctual fear of "the unknown." The original Jaws film wouldn't be half as frightening if you simply saw the shark all the time; the ominous music and the underwater shots of people swimming are far more frightening, imo. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:31 pm 
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Paka wrote:
Well, you may be correct in pointing out the "villain" terminology... Man isn't exactly a villain, but they are the antagonist in the film. The UD countdown was meant to honor, more precisely, the antagonists of Disney films, so Man would most definitely count. :) And a villain/antagonist/whatever doesn't have to be shown to be a tangible threat, either. In fact, it's arguably more effective to use an antagonist who is felt, more than seen, because it taps into the viewer's deeply ingrained, instinctual fear of "the unknown." The original Jaws film wouldn't be half as frightening if you simply saw the shark all the time; the ominous music and the underwater shots of people swimming are far more frightening, imo. ;)

Oh. I thought we were just talking about the villians. But you're right about how even though you can not see the villian/antagonist or what not, doesn't mean it set's an eerie mood where people become tense and uneasy. Actually what I'm saying is that even though you don't see man in Bambi, it really adds on to the suspence of the movie(especially the part before Bambi's mother dies). It makes a huge impact on people when they watch Bambi and I agree with not having Man being in the countdown is rather disappointing.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:33 pm 
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Why Isn't MAN On THE VILLIANS LIST!!!
They Are THE MOST CRUEL CREATURES!
They kill for any reason....
Animals need not be killed......I've seeen many warm clothes that aren't FUR!
For FOOD maybe....but they're also many tasty food that aren't made from animals.....
They (We) Kill each other for NO REASON AT ALL!

So MAN is definately the #1 Villain on ANY List.

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