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Pinocchio : I would not let the Evil Coachman get away with his crimes. He'll be caught, with the children freed and cured; learning a lesson not a life- long punishment.

Sleeping Beauty : I would just let the three main Fairies be the lead instead of Aurora and just let Aurora be a side character. Maybe change the title to match the fairies and tell the audience/ let them know that this is the Sleeping Beauty tale but from the Fairies point of view. I'll also let Phillip strike the dragon by himself instead of the Fairies helping him.

Cinderella : I might get strange looks for this, but I would make her pink outfit her official ballroom gown. It makes her look cheerful, happy and adorable while her sliver dress ages her a little bit too much.

Bambi : After Bambi's mum dies, I wouldn't let the transformation into Spring happen so suddenly. I would give time for the audience to grieve and Bambi grieve before changing into the next season. It wouldn't happen with a cheerful loving song either, but just showing leafs gliding through the wind/ wind blowing and the grass growing throughout the snow. Stuff like that.

Alice in Wonderland : Delete the Oyster Story. It's disturbing !

Fox and the Hound. Todd and Copper become friends again after the bear fight, and they realize that they can't let human rules destroy their friendship.

Beauty and the Beast : Give the Beast a proper name, is it Adam ? Don't confuse us Disney !

Pocahontas : As somebody has already brought up, get rid of the random and unnecessary animal comic relief. Don't let Pocahontas and John fall in love straight away, let their love develop throughout the movie.

Hunchback : Let Esmeralda be with Quasi. I do like Phobeus as a character, but not with Esmeralda.






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After seeing The Fox and the Hound again (and of course enjoying it again), I would have added a few changes;

1. Letting Tod apologize or trying to explain that he wasn't responsible for what happened to Chief. It really wasn't his fault. I was surprised that he just stood there watching down, without saying anything.

2. Letting Copper help Tod to fight the bear at the very end. It would have given their relationship more weight.

3. Expanding the relationship between Chief and Copper. Apparently Chief had a certain affection for Copper, but he spent the second half being jealous at Copper for being a good hound dog.

4. Expanding the time period Tod and Copper were hanging out and playing together. Letting their relationship to really blossom, resonate and develop. Apparently they seemed to know each other for only a few days, which really wasn't enough to make it develop.

5. Last, but not least, I would have reduced the caterpillar chases of Boomer and Dinky. I didn't mind them, but the screentime which was given to their unnecessary chases were annoying after a while.

Then why do you insist on applying logical arguments to Snow White and Cinderella?!

No, this is you setting your own rules for discussing your favorite movie and demanding we all abide to your rules. Well, I'm simply not going to play by your self-invented rules. You're not in charge of setting the framing of the discussion. Either you discuss all movies equally or you don't discuss them at all. At least not with me. The only reason you came up with this after-the-fact 'argument' of disregarding logic is because it's the only way you could reason away the flaws and faults in the movie.

And don't count on me reading your essays past the things I quoted. I have better things to do with my time than read such hogwash. Just pointing out to everybody how useless arguing with you really is, because, as I said, you continually make up your own 'rules'.

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Everyone has moved on now. The thread is back on topic.

Take the hint.

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I don't know if you're aware, but I was repsonding to what YOU wrote to ME. Don't want that? Then don't talk to me. 'Kay? 'Kay!

(And still no argument of substance from your side I see. Interesting.)

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Seriously: get help. This compulsive game playing is just sick.

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Fixed:

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I will get to the stuff about Sleeping Beauty in a later thread, but I feel like Goliath took care of perhaps all of it anyway in the last things he pointed out about Lazario's arguments and view of the film.

Lazario some stuff you said about Super Aurora is too mean to be true. If I missed anything like that about Goliath, then, that too!


Aw, thanks! But I caught that he was being really degrading with that comment and was thinking of saying something mean back, but you're right I don't like to do that and I like to cut the drama so I didn't.


I see. Well, that's why I was thinking you might agree with some things I would add/change in The Little Mermaid. Things like maybe Eric saying, "I want to be free and explore...and I want to meet someone like that, too!" or, you know, he said or showed that with more subtlety, the Ariel could see she would like him and he would like her. And then if on the beach, after he said "A girl rescued me..." he added "...and she sang so beautifully and so lovingly...I think I love her" which admittedly could be played for comedy with the "drank too much sea water" line, Ariel could hear this, and that, combined with the first thing, would give her much better and safer reason to make the deal with Ursula to go after him, because his love was what required her to keep her freedom in the deal.


I actually once said that one reason they may have taken Aurora back early is because of emotion. Her parents want her back asap and the fairies may not be the brightest. Fact is, if her parents really cared they probably would want her to be safe by not risking anything, so...yea, still isn't very good. Just saying there is a reason they take her back early...it's just not a very smart one for a film that is supposedly so intelligent according to Lazario. But the characters don't always have to be smart.

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Don't mind it since Lazario and I kinda make up for our faults. We're debating and talking rather civil, nicely, and reasonable now. And we're having fun with it by trying to understand each others points.

also did you get my email?




Lazario, i''l get to your post response in the debate thread tomorrow.

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Oh, that's nothing. I'm used to that. Whenever Lazario has run out of arguments or is tired of talking substance, he'll start a flame-fest. That's why he spoke to you so condescendingly in the thread where you discussed Bambi. He spends days discussing with you and then all of a sudden, your posts are "immature". You'll get used to it.


Well, we (and Ariel) already knew that because Eric told Grimsby he didn't want to be set up to some princess. He wanted to marry someone he chose himself, someone he truly loves. Ariel was there, too, so she must have heard him say that.


But that would take all the excitement and suspense out of the movie. The movie works because we, the audience, are rooting for Ariel and we want Eric to fall in love with her. We are frustrated when this doesn't happen; we feel just like Flounder and Scuttle who comment that Eric has to make his move. If we know that Eric already loves her, where is the suspense?


That's true, but that's not the reason Lazario gave. He basically said the characters could hear the soundtrack of their own film and their actions were "dictated" by the music. A copt-out to mask flaws in script and characters. When I pointed that out to him, he started his usual litany of insults ("you can't see the difference between films and reality" etc.)

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LOL


That's not really what I was getting at. :/ I guess him shirking responsibility to choose who he wants is "being free" kinda like Ariel...I wonder why that never made me feel like they were "meant for each other", though, so I don't know if it works/is good enough/is even what they were intending. He doesn't show much passion or that he wants a girl who is like him in that free, passionate way, and that latter part is what I think is important. Remember, I think almost all Disney romances are lacking in this department, but for Ariel's decision that she makes, this one is really important.


Ariel in the movie already thought Eric might love her. The real suspense in the movie does not come from whether he loves the girl who rescued him or not - it is pretty clear he loves her from what we get to see that Ariel doesn't. The suspense comes from if Eric will love Ariel when he doesn't know she's the one who rescued him. If Ariel heard Eric say that he loved the girl who rescued him, which was her, her face he saw, it would just make her decision to make the deal with Ursula more reasonable and smart.

This also brings up a pointed I wanted to say, and that's I think the movie touched on the idea that if you'e in love with someone, it can prevent you from falling in love with someone else who would be good or better for you. I think even I experienced that one. But it did always bother me that he didn't love her when she was on land. I mean, I know that him throwing the flute away to go after her shows he was starting to, but...I dunno, I felt he treated her kind of condescending and jerky before the finally romantic end of Kiss the Girl. It might've been more interesting to see him struggle with two loves - one for the girl who rescued him and one for the "new" girl.


Actually, not gonna lie, I think I understand that Lazario meant in Sleeping Beauty the magical forces of good and evil are always at work in the atmosphere and perhaps the curse or Maleficent was making them think it was safe, and the music is a representation of that just like music in films is supposed to tell us what emotions are being felt. Doesn't mean I think it's actually the case, though. The characters clearly have minds of their own and would not listen to and are not listening to the atmosphere to tell them what to do. In fact, when they tell Aurora that they will take her back to the castle, the music is actually really sinister and foreboding, so it still doesn't work. I admit Lazario had a pretty cool idea but it is not very consistent or evidenced in the film for me to believe it's really the case. I think it's debunked.

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He already has that struggle in the film. Only the audience knows that the two girls are one and the same.

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Yes, but I don't think Ariel is supposed to come off as rational and smart at that point. The whole point of that scene, in which she makes a deal with Ursula, is that she's so determined to achieve her goal, that she disregards all dangers and uncertainties involved. Not knowing how Eric feels about his dreamgirl, adds to Ariel's drive to find out and thus seal the deal, and it adds to her passion and our understanding of her.

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I'm not going to change any movies. However,I might add something on Beauty and the Beast.

After Prince Adam AKA the Beast and the castle is back to normal, Belle told her new love about Gaston who blackmailed her so she'll marry him. Prince Adam order the guards to find that ruthless brute and bring him in the castle. Gaston survived from the fall and was going to go back to the castle to find Belle since he thought he won the battle. But the guards found him and arrested him. Prince Adam confronts Gaston of his crime to marry Belle. Adam told Gaston that Adam was the Beast which that really shocked him. He tried begging Belle for forgiveness, but she denied it, as she know what he did is unforgiveable. Gaston was sent to the dungeon and his punishment is death.

what's the point when he already fucking dies from the fall. Saves time from useless fillers.

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It didn't look to me like he loved her. Forgive for exaggerating to show my point, but what is really looked like to me is "You could be the one -oh crap nevermind, well, I'll take you in you poor child...oh you look hot...oh, God, you're funny with that pipe you dumb silly child...would you like to see my kingdom girl I don't care that much about? Oh God you're crazy! Sittin' in this boat with you is boooring and aaaawkwaaard! Oh this music's good and she is hot let's kiss! Aw man, I guess Grimsby's right, well, she'll have to be my consolation prize."

Basically, even though I must believe that he starts to love her during all that, I don't think they did it good enough because he looks as jerky as all that, it made me confused as to whether he loved her or not, even when I was a kid. When Ursula said "That was a close one..." I thought...but that wasn't a kiss of true love because he didn't love her yet! It all made me think maybe they didn't intend him to love her yet, except maybe in the last moments of Kiss the Girl and when he throws the flute. Even when I was little I felt like "Oh, he's suddenly in love? That's love? But he didn't look like it or act like it before..." It was not as good or convincing as even the basic love at first sights in previous Disney movies. So I don’t even know if he was meant to be in love with her when he throws the flute, just choosing her.


At which point is she supposed to look rational and smart, to tell the truth?


:/ I don't think that her knowing how Eric feels would ruin that, in fact she'd be more passionate and it would make more sense why she did the passionate act.



Like Super Aurora said, not only did he definately die when he fell (that's why they put skulls in his eyes!), but the scene you added would ruin the happy feeling of the happy ending! And remember, Belle told the Beast to let Gaston go, so that was him being kinder and nicer, because he didn't have to kill Gaston anymore, so letting him go was something good about him she liked about him. Him killing Gaston in the end like that would change that!

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Oh now I remember, it's because he wasn't particularly showing much freedom beyond that he was just being shown girls to be with and he said he wanted to be with the right girl for him that he truly loved, and everyone wants that, I don't find it the same kind of free spirit Ariel displays.


Actually, she did show she was smart by outwitting the shark at least. And that was in the beginning. It was quick thinking, not planning, and that's okay, that's Ariel. But when it comes to giving up your life...well knowing Eric loved her would not mess with her character as anyone would think a little and be a little safer when it comes to changing or sacrificing your life.

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