Divorce - True Love Rediscovered or Marital Cancer?

[Jules]

As some of you know, I live in Malta - one of two countries (the other being the Philippines) that have yet to legalise divorce (and abortion too ... but that's another story).

A local politician, Dr. Jeffrey Pullicino Orlando, spearheaded what he hopes to be the introduction of divorce in Malta. Tomorrow the whole country will vote in a referendum. I will be casting my vote too, and I will be voting "No" - against divorce.

I think divorce is a pathetic way for one spouse to terminate the supposedly permanent "contract" of marriage for possibly no valid reason. The introduction of divorce will increase marriage break-ups and encourage careless marriages. As a Catholic person (and I'll stress here that I'm not the most religious, but I have a clear idea of what is required of me by my faith) I don't believe marriage can be dissolved by divorce. At least, I've always been taught that in the eyes of God, there is no divorce.

So you're having marriage problems, you say? First off, try to fix it ... every marriage has its problems. There are some things you don't agree with? Be loving and try to empathise.

What about a worst case scenario? You simply can't stand each other? Fine. Get separated. That's the church approved way to make you happy. But don't forget you're still married. Then, if things get even worse and your husband is like, beating the crap out of you every evening, get an annulment. That's kinda like divorce, ya know? Only you get an annulment for valid reasons.

A friend of mine commented on this issue on Facebook, and I think he hit the nail square on its head. He wrote:

"If you believe in divorce, don't get married."

I apologise if I sounded aggressive up there, but divorce annoys me, as does the twisted campaign for the referendum by the local pro-divorce group "Iva għaż-Żwieġ, Iva għad-Divorzju".

I will let you guys know the results of the Malta referendum this Sunday. So far it looks like the "yes" camp has a bit of an edge, unfortunately.

So what do you think? Do you agree with me or do you think I'm just bonkers?

Discuss away!

[KubrickFan]

If things simply don't work, then why shouldn't they get separated? Should they continue living unhappy lives with each other just because their church or whatever says divorce is impossible. Sure, sticking by each other for sixty years is impressive, but what good is that when there's no love involved?
Maybe it's just me. I don't view marriage as the holy, ultimate goal or whatever. Things can always happen. I view it as two people (straight or gay) that love each other and want to make that 'official', so to speak. Or perhaps 'legal' is a better term. And as is the case with every legal document, you can get out of it, if you want to.
That doesn't mean it should be done lightly. People will have to think about getting married (as with all important decisions), and think about divorce, if that time comes. I see no reason why that shouldn't be possible. I do find it ridiculous that you would want to decide for others. You're letting others suffer who want to get a divorce because of your own views, and that couldn't be more wrong.

[SpringHeelJack]

It's absolutely absurd to me that divorce should be illegal. That's pretty much all that can be said.

[David S.]

Yes, why should 2 people be forced to stay together if they realize their "marriage" was a mistake and they don't love each other?

Personally, I never believed that a "legal" marriage automatically makes a relationship more "real", more "valid", more "legitimate", or more "special" than a relationship without marraige. To believe this would mean that hetero married relationships are more "valid" than all gay relationships that exist where gays aren't allowed to marry.

And of course, even people who are allowed to marry can have a "real", "valid", "special", "legitimate" lasting relationship without marriage. There are couples like this who have been together forever, like Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn.

So ultimately, I believe it is the love that the two parties feel for each other and bring into the relationship that make it "legitimate" and "real", NOT whether they went down to the courthouse and filled out papers so the state can "officially" say it is "real". It became "real" the moment the two people decided it was real. It's not like the state has magical powers that can make the way people feel about each other more "real". And, in cases where relationships end, it ceases to become "real" when one or both parties no longer feels like it is real. Individuals (and couples) can define the reality of who they are without the state having to be involved.

Sorry Julian, nothing personal, but these are my honest opinions.

[Elladorine]

When I was younger (and still single) I may have agreed that divorce shouldn't be allowed. If you're getting married, know what you're getting into, right? While I've always been a bit of an idealist, perhaps a few hard knocks have since ground some reality into me. See, the thing is that we don't always know what we're getting into, even when we're careful and have the best of intentions. People can and do change, or only reveal their true selves over time.

I still agree that neither marriage nor divorce should ever be taken lightly, but the deal about any relationship is that it takes two to make it work. Since you don't have complete and total mind control over your partner (nor would you ever want to), there are no guarantees, no matter how much you may love them the very moment you say "I do." And there's no guarantee that you won't change your mind yourself one day.

Why is the sanctity of marriage held at such high regard anyway? Or rather, why is it more important than the actual individuals involved? Screw the ideals for the sake of them, people deserve to lead happy, full lives. And if that involves a divorce? Well it may look sad or wrong on the surface, but when it happens it's often for the best. I just can't imagine marrying into my first serious relationship (like I had initially planned on) and being legally or spiritually bound with that ass for the rest of my life . . .

[Disney's Divinity]

I grew up in a time/society where divorce has always been allowed, so I’m probably biased. But I think the “try to fix things” advice is incredibly naïve. You can’t fix a marriage unless both partners are willing--and you can‘t force one partner to try or to continue loving you. And sometimes there is no saving a marriage. Some people don’t belong together, and it‘s better for all involved if they just divorce.

The problem with just “separating,” is that it implies you plan to get back together.

[milojthatch]

The best way to avoid divorce is to not marry someone you'd divorce in the first place. A religious leader of mine said that and I fully agree with it. Courtship these days has become a joke, and yet it is so important in the marriage process. Maybe if more young men and women spent less time trying to figure out if their sex lives would be amazing together and more time learning about who the other person is, that right there would cut down on divorce. Courtship should be a time to figure out who the person is, what their goals in life are, what kind of bad habits do they have, and can you live with all of that?

The other thing is that marriage is only as strong as how much you put into it. Frankly, marriage is hard work. Everything in life that means something is hard work. You can't cut corners, and you HAVE to put your pride on the shelf. So many people these days though want "the easy way" to anything and I think right there you have the reason for a lot of divorces in this country. That and the fact that people look at marriage not as seriously anymore. Marriage isn't something to take lightly, it's a major commitment that will affect more then just the husband and wife forever. It has an affect on everyone around you and defiantly has an effect on your kids and future posterity.

My dad came from a broken home. My grandparents only got married becuase they got pregnant with my dad. While I'm grateful of course that my dad was born, the situations around his birth and raising screwed him up. He has some very serious depression that directly stems from his background. My wife, similar thing, her parents divorced when she was a kid. It's screwed with her mental state as well and she suffers from depression. The situation has lead to many awkward moments with my in-laws and the kind of relationship she has, or rather doesn't really have, with her dad. Not to mention the turmoil it caused my in-law's families.

I myself, while not divorced, was engaged two times. While the second one actually turned to marriage, the first one died off just a few weeks from when it happened. I'm actually grateful the first one didn't turn to marriage, as I'm sure without getting into it, had I stuck to it, I would have ended up divorced. But THAT is what the courtship time is for, to use your head to avoid issues down the road. I'm a lot happier as a result. But you know what? Even that relationship coming to an end hurt a lot, so I could only wonder how much more it would hurt to end a marriage relationship.

I think the thing that really gets me is how mixed up we are as a society. If people put as much effort and importance on their marriage as they do their college degrees, business dealings, or even hobbies for many folks, the divorce rate would be much lower. I firm believe that. Does that mean that divorce shouldn't exist? No, there are legitimate times when it is needed, but just like law suites in this country, it's been over used and exploited.

I realize that many people now a days look at slightly more "puritan ways" shall we say for lack of a better term, and complain about how "restricting it is." "Oh, you have to be free and enjoy life!" Blah, blah, blah. But, let's face facts, society has been trying it "the fun way" this whole time, and only doing it that way more so the last few decades, and are we really any happier? Are children from broken homes really so much happier? Are people who have locked their hearts away to love to protect themselves from broken hearts after so many bed partner really any happier? Are single mothers barley making ends meat really any happier? Are tax payers whose money is needed to take care of these single mothers or orphaned kids really any happier? Maybe the various drug users or drinkers that have turned to such things to cope with the cold hard realities such actions have brought us are happier? The broken hearts and the bitter hate, it only causes more of the same.

But you know who is happy? People that put their pride on the shelf, keep their heads in the game, follow the "puritan ways" of doing things, work hard, and that don't give up when things get hard. These people are happier. Their kids are happier. Their families are happier. Life is simple, you get from it what you put into it. If all your looking for in a relationship is sex, status or an easy road, you'll get hell back. But, if your looking for true love and are willing to put in to commitment, time and energy it takes to find and hold on to it, you'll find joy. Simple as that.

I truly believe the ills of the World come down to how strong the family unit it. That is where every human being who ever was comes from. What they take from that experience, they bring into the World. This is why the greatest threat to civilized society is the destruction of the family unit. Protect that, make it stronger and more intact on a global level, and many of said ills will go away.

[Disney's Divinity]

The best way to avoid divorce is to not marry someone you'd divorce in the first place. A religious leader of mine said that and I fully agree with it.

The problem is--who you are when you marry and who you are 30+ years later aren't always the same. People's feelings, beliefs, and goals evolve and change just like everything else in life.

And I seriously doubt that society was once better just because divorce once kept unsatisfied people tied to one another. It's sort of like the argument over unwed mothers. "Back in dem ol' days, nobodys ever did that! Now all dem chiles are doin's it!" The difference is that, in those "glory days," society turned a blind eye and ignored reality. These days, people are very open about what's really happening, instead of parading some brainwash facade.

Are children better in a house where the two adults despise one another? Do they grow mentally stable amidst tension and constant arguing? Are things really better when people turn to alcohol when they hate the life they're trapped in? Honestly, trotting out "people have mental problems because of divorce" is nonsense. People are depressed normally--that's just a fact of life. Life is not always up, and it's not always down. Divorce no doubt leads to more stress, but so do unhappy marriages.

I just hate your whole argument about how perfect things were "in the glory days!", and how people who get divorced are slutty, lazy and stupid--because that couldn't be farther from the truth. On a personal level, I've lived with my parents 20 years now, and they--and my sister and I--would have been better off if they had divorced 17 years ago.

(Also, single mothers trying to make ends meet/needing welfare has nothing to do with divorce--it has to do with loser fathers who won't pay child support. Those same mothers would still be struggling married to people who won't support their families.)

[Goliath]

I have always liked you, Julian, but that's over now. It's one thing to have medieval ideas on marriage based on religion, but it's another to want to push them onto other people who may not share your beliefs --to ram them through their collective throats. The ease with which you speak of marriage and divorce is stunning in both its naievity and arrogance. You have NO idea what you speak of.

I've lived with my parent's failed marriage for far too long. They got divorced only two years ago. They should've done it at least 15 years ago. Their marriage was loveless, bitter and filled with periods of fights and periods of ignoring one another, pretending the other did not exist. And me and my younger sister were in the midst of this for most of the time. We've seen the hate and the pain and the sorrow. Now they're divorced, both my parents are happier than they ever were. I see it in both of them, they have better lives now. And they wish they had done it years earlier, instead of staying together 'for financial reasons' (e.g. to let me go to college).

I'm glad I live in a country where this is possible. And I'm glad there are no people like you over here who, with their vote, can overthrow it. Because bottom line, you don't have ANYTHING to say about how people live their lives --well, apparently in Malta, you do, but in the rest of the civilised world you don't. Because you have no moral right to decide for others. If you think your religion dictates no divorces are allowed: good for you; don't get one! But those of us who don't share your religion or interpret it differently shouldn't have to SUFFER because of it.

The idea that you want to LOCK UP people in failed, senseless marriage and make them MISERABLE for the rest of their lives is disgusting. It's selfish to put your personal beliefs above the basic human rights of people to decide for themselves what they want to do with their lives.

I sincerely hope tomorrow, Malta will finally join civilisation by voting 'YES' en masse. If not, and this ridiculous, outdated ban on divorce continues to exist, I hope with all my heart that the European Union immediately EXPELLS them and take away their membership of the EU.

Oh, and Julian, one more thing: if you're such a good and holy and faithful Catholic: get back into the closet! Being gay is considered a cardinal sin in the Christian community and in the Catholic church (not that you could tell, what with all the priests fucking the altar boys). So what's it's going to be? Will you be a hypocrite and deny other people the right to decide over their own lives, when it comes to divorce, because your religion tells you so; yet you continue to go against the rules of that same religion with your sexual orientation? Or are you going to be honest and 'be straight' from now on, just as your religion prescribes?

And now that I've gotten this off my chest, I'm going to listen to Dylan's 'divorce album' Blood on the Tracks and especially the song 'Idiot Wind', in which he totally *destroys* his (ex-)wife in the most imaginative, poetic way you could ever imagine. If you have listened to that song and the vitriol that's being spewed there, you'll entirely agree that there are things that can never be "fixed".

Are children better in a house where the two adults despise one another? Do they grow mentally stable amidst tension and constant arguing? Are things really better when people turn to alcohol when they hate the life they're trapped in?

I've seen all that and lived through that and I completely understand your sentiment about wishing your parents got a divorce *earlier*. I'm so glad you made that post, you know? I've always thought I was the only one who had such thoughts. Thank you.

I'm normally not open at all about private things like these on the forum, but this thread really struck a nerve. It's surreal how somebody who would deny the right to marry to homosexuals, like Milo, has the nerve to talk about the 'sanctity of marriage' or to call those who do divorce names. I remember something about letting God be the one to judge. That seems to be the one thing that ultra-religious people always forget.

[Jules]

I've lived with my parent's failed marriage for far too long. They got divorced only two years ago. They should've done it at least 15 years ago. Their marriage was loveless, bitter and filled with periods of fights and periods of ignoring one another, pretending the other did not exist. And me and my younger sister were in the midst of this for most of the time. We've seen the hate and the pain and the sorrow. Now they're divorced, both my parents are happier than they ever were. I see it in both of them, they have better lives now. And they wish they had done it years earlier, instead of staying together 'for financial reasons' (e.g. to let me go to college).

*sigh* Let's imagine your parents were a Roman Catholic Maltese couple. Couldn't the problem be solved by a separation? Yes, you're still married once seperated, but bloody hell is that such a problem? Marriage is for life, and not dependent on one's current mood and state of mind.

The idea that you want to LOCK UP people in failed, senseless marriage and make them MISERABLE for the rest of their lives is disgusting. It's selfish to put your personal beliefs above the basic human rights of people to decide for themselves what they want to do with their lives.

Er ... I'm being given a choice here? Isn't that what the referendum is all about? And if you're going to call me medieval you might as well call at least half the country that as well as practically the entire government and its cabinet of ministers, because most of 'em are anti-divorce too.

Goliath, you're an atheist. Of course you don't have a problem with divorce if you don't believe in anything! I'm just sayin' people shouldn't view marriage as a temporary fling you can get out of the moment the storm clouds gather.

Is it so difficult to deal with the fact that marriage might, gosh ... actually be serious business?

EDIT

Oh, and Julian, one more thing: if you're such a good and holy and faithful Catholic: get back into the closet! Being gay is considered a cardinal sin in the Christian community and in the Catholic church (not that you could tell, what with all the priests fucking the altar boys). So what's it's going to be? Will you be a hypocrite and deny other people the right to decide over their own lives, when it comes to divorce, because your religion tells you so; yet you continue to go against the rules of that same religion with your sexual orientation? Or are you going to be honest and 'be straight' from now on, just as your religion prescribes?

I'll admit that I am unclear as to what the Roman Catholic church thinks of homosexuality. Growing up I was under the impression that the church discourages same-sex relations, but is accepting of homosexuality as a sexual orientation.

And I'd appreciate if you'd keep down that snarky tone. You've never been unfriendly with me before. I started this thread for genuine and civil discussion.

[Goliath]

*sigh* Let's imagine your parents were a Roman Catholic Maltese couple. Couldn't the problem be solved by a separation? Yes, you're still married once seperated, but bloody hell is that such a problem? Marriage is for life, and not dependent on one's current mood and state of mind.

You know what? FUCK YOU!

Fuck you and fuck your judgemental narrow-mindedness! Fuck your arrogance, fuck your holier-than-thou attitude, fuck your unwillingness to place yourself in someone else's shoes, fuck all that.

But I do wish you would have answered my question about your enormous hypocrisy. Easy for you to judge about marriage when you're not allowed to be in one, isn't it?

[Jules]

You know what? FUCK YOU!

Fuck you and fuck your judgemental narrow-mindedness! Fuck your arrogance, fuck your holier-than-thou attitude, fuck your unwillingness to place yourself in someone else's shoes, fuck all that.

Really?

I'm disappointed in you Goliath. I always liked you too.

[pap64]

*sigh* Let's imagine your parents were a Roman Catholic Maltese couple. Couldn't the problem be solved by a separation? Yes, you're still married once seperated, but bloody hell is that such a problem? Marriage is for life, and not dependent on one's current mood and state of mind.

You know what? FUCK YOU!

Fuck you and fuck your judgemental narrow-mindedness! Fuck your arrogance, fuck your holier-than-thou attitude, fuck your unwillingness to place yourself in someone else's shoes, fuck all that.

But I do wish you would have answered my question about your enormous hypocrisy. Easy for you to judge about marriage when you're not allowed to be in one, isn't it?

Goliath, calm down...

I understand that this is a topic you STRONGLY believe in, but are all the personal attacks and insults needed? I read what Julian posted here and there doesn't seem to be any ill-meaning behind it all.

Here's the thing, you CAN disagree with him, regardless of how outlandish the comments may be, or just ignore him. But again, all the insults are not needed. It makes you look like a bitter, resentful poster and it makes thing worse.

I expected better out of you. And before you say anything, I have my own thoughts regarding divorce and such (which will post later once this cools down), some which differs from Julian's point of view. I just think that he doesn't deserve to be insulted, ridiculed and bashed because you are angry at a topic.

And that's basically what I am getting from you now: anger. There is a lot of anger in you. I don't know if the topic brought it up, but you are expressing a lot of unhealthy anger, and using Julian as a punching bag.

Not going to accuse you of anything or claim that you are a bad person, but I am disappointed that you resorted to insulting someone severely over beliefs. Ultimate Disney has a severe tact and attitude problem, and doing this just doesn't help it. If we want to change the community and be a better example for current and new members we need to stop this bullcrap.

RIGHT. NOW.

[Disney's Divinity]

Goliath, calm down...

I understand that this is a topic you STRONGLY believe in, but are all the personal attacks and insults needed? I read what Julian posted here and there doesn't seem to be any ill-meaning behind it all.

I don’t know, I can understand why he responded that way. We’re talking about marriage as it’s considered from the point of the view of the state or in personal lives. Of course, a lot of people’s views of religion affect how they view marriage within their own lives, but from a state/non-religious standpoint one needs to be objective and realize that not everyone believes the same religion they do.

The “you’re an atheist, of course you don’t have a problem with divorce if you don’t believe in anything” was under the belt. And I can't act holier-than-thou because I know I probably would’ve responded the same, tbh (if the gay Disney characters thread was any indication ).

That said, I share Goliath’s views, and I’m not an athiest. If that counts. I’m sure, from a religious standpoint, God would prefer one-time, happy marriages--but they all don’t work out and I believe God would rather us practice monogamous, dedicated marriages and spread positivity rather than breed negativity in loveless and hateful marriages. Lesser of two evils, I'm sure.

This topic actually makes me think of Desperate Housewives' season 7 finale. Each of the characters are painted differently--some are more serious and others more cartoony. Most of the characters have divorced, but most have gotten back together (the only character not with her original partner is Bree, whose husband died after they had decided not to divorce--though she later got divorced from her second husband; although Susan was divorced before the show started from a philandering husband). Probably the most serious couple on the show is Doug Savant's and Felicity Huffman's characters, Tom and Lynette. They basically epitomize the boring, back-in-forth struggle of day-to-day life as a monogamous couple, as two individuals who don't always gel together but who do their best to work it out. In the finale, they finally decided to divorce--having never separated for seven seasons (25 yrs)--after going through an extremely rough period. They were honestly driving one another crazy, and they tried like they always have to get out of it. But Lynette said it best--when she thought Tom had left, she felt: "relief."

Not all couples work out--and they aren't lazy. I won't say there aren't those who give up too easy, but as milojthatch said marriage isn't easy, and those struggles take a toll on people. I can't say, "Oh, just work it out! Your problems aren't that bad" when they are honestly being drained by the life they're in. It's not that they don't love the other person deep down, or that they haven't tried, but the marriage honestly isn't working and no fixing is just going to change who they are and the fact that they don't work together anymore. That's life.

[David S.]

*sigh* Let's imagine your parents were a Roman Catholic Maltese couple. Couldn't the problem be solved by a separation? Yes, you're still married once seperated, but bloody hell is that such a problem?

Yes, it would be a HUGE problem if either party ever wanted to marry someone else. Or, like others have said, people change over time, sometimes evolving into people the other party truly despises. If someone would have to still be legally married to someone they can't stand, and have their destiny legally BOUND to said person for the rest of their life (as Enigmawing so eloquently put it), that would be horrible!

These are just a few examples... not arguing, just giving my opinion since you asked for them in your original post.

[Goliath]

And that's basically what I am getting from you now: anger. There is a lot of anger in you. I don't know if the topic brought it up, but you are expressing a lot of unhealthy anger, and using Julian as a punching bag.

I don't have any "anger in me". Who are you to judge? You don't know me. I don't have "a lot of anger in me", but I *am* angry at Julian for what he has said in this thread --and those are two different things. He's purposefully belitteling the experiences of millions of people who are or have been the victims of unhealthy, unhappy marriages and the children who have fallen victim to their parents' failed marriages. He makes light of that; even after I have told him and all of you from experience how people can suffer from staying together. He ridicules it, he judges with arrogance, without knowledge, without first-hand experience. He wants to ram his faith down our throats. I put my neck out by writing down the awful experiences I have had with my parents' rotten marriage... and he just sighed at it and belittled it. He thinks he can judge for all other people... and he WILL! Tomorrow, in a referendum, along with other people, HE gets to vote on how OTHER people should live. He has said he will vote AGAINST the free will of people to decide over their own lives. He will DENY them their basic human rights.

And you are disappointed with ME?! I guess you can say anything, no matter how hateful and ignorant on UD, as long as you say it in a 'polite' way... must be the reason why openly homophobic and anti-semitic members are still allowed here, too. At least they voiced their disgusting points of view 'politely'.

I’m sure, from a religious standpoint, God would prefer one-time, happy marriages--

It's funny, but in the Old Testament God actually approves of polygamy (and incest, and rape). For ages, polygamy was never a problem. It still isn't in Islam, where as a man, you're allowed to have four wives, if you can provide for them Or does 'their' God not count? You were absolutely right, the "atheist"-argument was under the belt (even though I consider myself agnostic). But it was the sighing and belitteling of my personal story (which was not easy to write) that spurred my reaction.

[pap64]

Goliath, calm down...

I understand that this is a topic you STRONGLY believe in, but are all the personal attacks and insults needed? I read what Julian posted here and there doesn't seem to be any ill-meaning behind it all.

I don’t know, I can understand why he responded that way. We’re talking about marriage as it’s considered from the point of the view of the state or in personal lives. Of course, a lot of people’s views of religion affect how they view marriage within their own lives, but from a state/non-religious standpoint one needs to be objective and realize that not everyone believes the same religion they do.

The “you’re an atheist, of course you don’t believe in marriage if you don’t believe in anything” was under the belt. And I know I probably would’ve responded the same, tbh.

That said, I share Goliath’s views, and I’m not an athiest. If that counts. I’m sure, from a religious standpoint, God would prefer one-time, happy marriages--but they all don’t work out and I believe God would rather us practice monogamous, dedicated marriages and spread positivity rather than breed negativity in loveless and hateful marriages. Lesser of two evils, I'm sure.

See, I am NOT talking about beliefs or their discussion here. I am talking about how we should learn to respect and tolerate others even if their beliefs clashes with ours.

Everyone is guilty of trying to shove their beliefs down each other's throats, but charging into each other is just uncalled for. THIS is what I am speaking against.

I may be naive, but I am of the belief that many of us are smart and adult enough to carry a conversation about divorce, love, marriage and religion without having to insult each other. Yes, everyone has made that mistake here before, even me, but we gotta learn to stand back and think about the other person regardless of what they are saying.

[Goliath]

See, I am NOT talking about beliefs or their discussion here. I am talking about how we should learn to respect and tolerate others even if their beliefs clashes with ours.

See, there *are* limits to that. If you believe in God, I respect that. If you believe right-wing political policies are the best for the country, I respect that. If you believe Bob Dylan is a worthless artist, I respect that. I disagree with that in the strongest sense and I will debate this... but I will respect it. But there are limits. I don't have to respect and tolerate homophobic, misogynist, racist or ant-semitic comments... which *have* been expressed on UD and the members who have made those comments remain here.

Everyone is guilty of trying to shove their beliefs down each other's throats, but charging into each other is just uncalled for. THIS is what I am speaking against.

I call bullshit. I think very highly of you, pap, as you may know, but you're playing "mr. holier-than-thou" here; you're making false equations just for the sake of keeping the peace and I think you know it. I'm not trying to shove my anti-religious, pro-divorce beliefs down anyone's throats. I'M not voting to abandon marriage; I'M not forcing people to get a divorce; I'M not railing against marriage. I don't want to take anything away from Julian Carter or anyone else. But he DOES. So this is totally false equation. No offense.

Even the TITLE of the thread, pap...! "Marital CANCER"?! I don't know to whom this is more offensive: divorced people or people who have cancer?! You expect a productive discussion with that kind of a beginning? Again, no disrespect.

[pinkrenata]

<b>Goliath</b>, consider yourself officially warned. I don't care that you disagree with Julian Carter. Take a look at this thread -- a number of people have. But they have not done so in as an offensive and vulgar matter as you. This is not a case of being "prudish"; this is simply not how you speak to people in a public setting. I don't care that this is an online forum. General social conventions still apply.

As of now this thread is locked until I have time to figure out how to properly deal with it. Guess what? People have real problems. I have real problems. Maybe you have real problems too. Please don't <i>create</i> new problems.

Thanks for listening.