Big One wrote:
A lot of this is factually wrong. For one, Rapunzel DID have a pretty deep-rooted love for Gothel. Matter of fact when she found out Gothel was practically hunting her, she was pretty startled. The movie establishes that - while Gothel is a manipulative character - that Rapunzel isn't really aware of this.
I didn't say anything otherwise. My point is that you're calling it a deep, heartwarming relationship (one that goes beyond Frollo-Quasi), when in fact it's entirely one-sided to Rapunzel, just like with Frollo-Quasi.
My point is that the movie establishes that instead of being scared of her, Rapunzel loves her like a mother. This is a complete twist on the Frollo/Lady Tremaine relationship.
Um...no, it isn't. Both Quasi and Cinderella have a lot of respect and/or love for Frollo and Tremaine at the beginning of those films. If Quasi didn't, he wouldn't have been as easily manipulated by Frollo, or even try to save him at the end after he's just tried to stab him multiple times.
I think you should rewatch Cinderella. Your memory is either bad, or you're looking too deep into things. Cinderella really didn't care much about her mother, and didn't want more from it (of course neither did Rapunzel). Matter of fact it's greatly implied in the movie that she hates her step-mother, and it's established at the beginning that she has a completely dominate relationship with her on the level of a slave. This is even more emphasized later on when her dress gets ripped up by her sisters.
Actually, I'm not reading too deep into things. There are several times throughout the movie where Cinderella looks up to her stepmother, particularly the scene where the letter for the ball comes, where she actually expects Tremaine to be fair and just to her. Throughout the early scenes, Cinderella expresses disdain for the stepsisters and Lucifer, but she actually looks to Tremaine as an authority figure.
And you should also pick up The Disney Villain
. In an early draft of that scene, Cinderella says something akin to, "I'll make you proud!" when the Stepmother says she can go to the ball if she finishes her chores. And that feeling is still there in the story. It's also interesting that when Cinderella realizes that Tremaine is not at all intending to be a mother to her (the dress ripping scene that she causes), she runs to the willow tree. Where her mother is buried in the tale, and--poof--a fairy godmother appears.
Also, btw, I don't think you could ever read too "deep" into anything. You must come from the school of thought that fairy tales and Disney movies are just simple, little, superficial stories. In fact, there is a lot more going on under the surface, more often than not. Of course, you're free to think that. Doesn't mean we all do though.
That's not how real life works. There are a variety of relationships in real life, so in every form of fiction, pretty much any relationship is possible - even the badly characterized ones.
Um...could you stop talking down to every one? If you had any sense of context, you would know I was making a joke on the assumption that "opposites attract"--I wasn't saying that's how all relationships are. I'm not sure why you're attempting to be so antagonistic, when all I'm doing is trying to have a drama-free discussion.
The point I was trying to get at is that I don't think Naveen and Tiana's relationship was as good because they developed it as frogs, in what I call the "Frog World" in Princess and the Frog. What I mean by this is when they change into frogs, the whole perspective of the movie changes. There's all of these really, really shitty talking animals all over the place. With every bit of development they have, Louis the alligator has to interrupt and ruin any moment they possibly have.
So development only actually happens if the characters are human? And Pascal and Maximillian don't interrupt the movie for their humor (in fact, Pascal does just that when Rapunzel's hair glows in the fireside scene)?
Louis is easily one of the worst Disney characters ever made next to Gurgi from The Black Cauldron, and ruined any possible human-connection the audience had with the characters.
This is an opinion, not a fact (as you would point out).
While I think Louis could have been given better lines in the movie--and he could've definitely be cut out of a few crucial scenes--I actually think he's reall well-voiced. I think it might've helped if he, like Ray, were more connected to the story. In fact, in early plans for the movie, he was described as an early victim of Dr. Facilier, who used to be human. I think he had come to Facilier to be a jazz-playing star. I don't know why they cut that idea, because I think it would've helped the character a lot.
In Tangled, Flynn and Rapunzel are in a consistent and believable setting for their own world enough for the audience to connect to them. Though if you connected more to Princess and the Frog then that's okay I guess...if you're a furry.
Um...you do realize the frogs were...really human
, right? They change back at the end. Also, you have seen Lady & the Tramp
, 101 Dalmatians
, The Lion King
, The Rescuers
, and so on, where two anthropomorphic animals fall in love?
Okay so do you mind pointing out these specific moments?
Cause I don't really get the comparisons with Beauty and the Beast's ending either. :/
Um...the hero dies, and the heroine's love brings him back to life--all with beautiful, dazzling, magical lights? Following the villains fall off the castle (in this case, tower). That part was a pretty blatant copy--though not as effective as in B&tB, imo.
Of course, all the fairy tale films have similar ideas (SB being kissed just like Snow White), but they usually do it in a rather different way each time. Where this felt like they were just trying to copy past '90s successes for ideas.
I think there is one big offender: The boat scene. This is directly from The Little Mermaid, but in the very least it's done more beautifully and emotionally in Tangled. You can tell they were trying to remake that scene.
Yes, it is.
And while I agree it's more emotional in Tangled
, the scene from Mermaid
itself is equally as beautiful to "IStL." And "Kiss the Girl" far and away wins, music-wise.