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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:00 pm 
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So, this screencap from Pocahontas 2 was posted in the Pocahontas Blu-ray thread:

http://a.imageshack.us/img853/4541/5656465.jpg

We know that details such as tiny faces have been redrawn for the IMAX releases during the last decade (Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King, and Aladdin). Now that high-def and Blu-ray are commonplace, do you think/know that tiny details are not being overlooked, such as the above example, and little details are being fleshed out?

Take this picture, for example:

http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/artic ... 804018.jpg

(I was looking for the picture of them all flying, but I can't find it).

In that picture, Tinker Bell's features might not look good if shown on a big HD-TV, right? So, for newer releases (whether a brand new movie in production or a restoration of an older film), do you think HD and Blu-ray will affect how these films are made/restored?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:23 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
In that picture, Tinker Bell's features might not look good if shown on a big HD-TV, right?


Or on a theatre sized screen way bigger than the picture you posted, where it was shown originally. I wouldn't worry about Disney modifying their films too much in this sense since it would cost them more and there's no plans to release the movie on an IMAX sized screen for example.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:26 pm 
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This is a very interesting thought!

When you brought this up my mind immediately went to a part of the scene in Peter Pan where they are flying over London. In this particular screenshot you can see the moment when the character's faces appear as they are flying closer you to. It was blatant on the PE, and I've been wondering how it would look on the DE blu-ray.

I know that some purists would probably say that updating these films would be blasphemy, but I think I would be in favor of it. After all, it wouldn't be changing a design necessarily.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:22 pm 
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They better not. If they would it would be wrong and appallingly disrespectful to Walt and his artists.

You should never alter an artist's work, even to correct what (some people think) might be mistakes or need improvement. Some people think Snow White's voice needs improvement, too, you shouldn't alter that either.

singerguy...for shame. :headshake:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Flanger-Hanger wrote:
Or on a theatre sized screen way bigger than the picture you posted, where it was shown originally.


I wonder how many people notice things like that, though, unless maybe they've seen the film a few times in a theater.

Flanger-Hanger wrote:
I wouldn't worry about Disney modifying their films too much in this sense since it would cost them more and there's no plans to release the movie on an IMAX sized screen for example.


But aren't home TVs getting bigger and bigger? Obviously most people don't have movie theater-sized TVs at home, but I wonder if Disney considers it when restoring films.

And what about when Disney is creating a new film. Like, people have noticed lack of details in Disney films in the past, like in the examples above and other examples. But, for example, were there any shots in The Princess and the Frog or in Winnie the Pooh that may look not detailed on a big screen if someone noticed it? Or does Disney keep in mind that these films will be shown on large home TV screens in HD and they're more conscious of how the lack of details would look?

And does this happen in CG films?

Disney Duster wrote:
They better not. If they would it would be wrong and appallingly disrespectful to Walt and his artists.


singerguy04 wrote:
I know that some purists would probably say that updating these films would be blasphemy, but I think I would be in favor of it. After all, it wouldn't be changing a design necessarily.


I don't think that it would be disrespectful to Walt and his artists, because back then, VHS/laserdisc/DVD/Blu-ray didn't exist. And home TVs were smaller. So, if someone caught a film on The Wonderful World of Color, for example, it was on a small screen and they wouldn't pause it or go frame-by-frame. I don't think that too much should be tinkered with, and I'm not 100% sure how I feel about them tweaking things. I think that it's not as bad to make faces more detailed and similar things like that, but I feel less happy about the changed waterfalls in The Lion King, for just one example.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:50 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
But aren't home TVs getting bigger and bigger? Obviously most people don't have movie theater-sized TVs at home, but I wonder if Disney considers it when restoring films.

And what about when Disney is creating a new film. Like, people have noticed lack of details in Disney films in the past, like in the examples above and other examples. But, for example, were there any shots in The Princess and the Frog or in Winnie the Pooh that may look not detailed on a big screen if someone noticed it? Or does Disney keep in mind that these films will be shown on large home TV screens in HD and they're more conscious of how the lack of details would look?

And does this happen in CG films?

The films were in what could be called "HD" on bigger screens than any home theater for decades while Walt and his crew made the films. Knowing this, does that help answer those questions?

BlackCauldron85 wrote:
I don't think that it would be disrespectful to Walt and his artists, because back then, VHS/laserdisc/DVD/Blu-ray didn't exist. And home TVs were smaller. So, if someone caught a film on The Wonderful World of Color, for example, it was on a small screen and they wouldn't pause it or go frame-by-frame. I don't think that too much should be tinkered with, and I'm not 100% sure how I feel about them tweaking things. I think that it's not as bad to make faces more detailed and similar things like that, but I feel less happy about the changed waterfalls in The Lion King, for just one example.

The original artists of The Lion King are alive and can make whatever changes they like. But unless you have call from the official artists, you never change an artists work period, even if you personally think its something that wouldn't bother them. You can restore it to its original glory, and that's it.

I suppose some "enhanced" versions are okay if the originals are made equally available, but it's still not morally the right thing.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:54 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
And what about when Disney is creating a new film. Like, people have noticed lack of details in Disney films in the past, like in the examples above and other examples. But, for example, were there any shots in The Princess and the Frog or in Winnie the Pooh that may look not detailed on a big screen if someone noticed it? Or does Disney keep in mind that these films will be shown on large home TV screens in HD and they're more conscious of how the lack of details would look?


I think technology of today allows for greater detail than before becuase you can much more easily "shrink" an image down to the scale you want it (having done the deatil in a larger size) or build more layers on top of it. I'm not sure of less detailed looking shot examples, but in general you can do more to an image once it's completed now with computers than with cells.

blackcauldron85 wrote:
And does this happen in CG films?


CG movies are different in that you have a simulated enviroment to place the "camera" wherever you want it. You can build a character model or enviroment as detailed as you want in a larger size, but "pan" away from it to show depth, or simly "shrink" it's scale to fit the proportions you want. At least that's how I interpret it from the little exerience I have with CGI movies.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:50 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
The original artists of The Lion King are alive and can make whatever changes they like. But unless you have call from the official artists, you never change an artists work period, even if you personally think its something that wouldn't bother them. You can restore it to its original glory, and that's it.

I suppose some "enhanced" versions are okay if the originals are made equally available, but it's still not morally the right thing.


I am one who feels that this whole "don't ever alter an artist work" mentality starts to become a bit unreasonable often, especially when phrases like "it's not the morally right thing to do" are used. What the heck would most folks in Hollywood know about morals? I think some people get a little serious about things that at the end of the day, really don't matter. Some people talk about movies as like they have greater meaning then things like The Bible (maybe to them, they do?), and something about that bothers me and actually turns me off to movies. Besides, odds are 1,000 years from now, none of this stuff is going to be around anyway, or the way it originally was at best, so who cares?

That said, I am not necessarily a big fan of the "high def craze" we find ourselves in. I actually don't like how computer animation looks in HD, and have to agree with my wife on this one that classic films (we'll say mid-80's or later) should not be in HD. I've not watched a number of classic films in HD, animated or otherwise, and they just don't look "right" to me.

I'm not saying this because I feel it's "morally not right," that's a bunch a crap, but because I personally don't like how it looks. When it comes to movies, it ultimately always comes down to personal feelings. Now I realize it is not going to change, and that's ok, but I'd have to agree with others who feel classic films should not be in HD. Crazy as this sounds, I actually like a little film dust in my classic movies, it gives them character.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:10 pm 
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milojthatch wrote:
I am one who feels that this whole "don't ever alter an artist work" mentality starts to become a bit unreasonable often, especially when phrases like "it's not the morally right thing to do" are used. What the heck would most folks in Hollywood know about morals? I think some people get a little serious about things that at the end of the day, really don't matter. Some people talk about movies as like they have greater meaning then things like The Bible (maybe to them, they do?), and something about that bothers me and actually turns me off to movies. Besides, odds are 1,000 years from now, none of this stuff is going to be around anyway, or the way it originally was at best, so who cares?

So Hollywood people don't care about morals so we should let it go? Walt Disney never cared about morals? If you made something, and died, and didn't say we couldn't change it, I should be allowed to change it? People aren't holy and the things they do aren't special and shouldn't be respected and not damaged like the Bible tells us? And anything digital will be around on computers forever unless something destroys all computers with something that would probably destroy everything else anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:15 pm 
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milojthatch wrote:
That said, I am not necessarily a big fan of the "high def craze" we find ourselves in. I actually don't like how computer animation looks in HD, and have to agree with my wife on this one that classic films (we'll say mid-80's or later) should not be in HD. I've not watched a number of classic films in HD, animated or otherwise, and they just don't look "right" to me.


Milo, you do realise that when you watch a film in the cinema (be it digitally projected or sourced from 35mm) you are experiencing said film in even higher definition than the Blu-ray disc high definition standard, no?

I remember some members here saying stuff like "HD will kill the xerox Disney features!" If HD really will kill those films, then they were already dead when exhibited theatrically in the 1960s and 1970s.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:12 pm 
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So, I was watching The Emperor's New Groove (the 2001 CE DVD) on my boyfriend's 50" (?) TV...I don't know if it's plasma or LED or anything (I am way behind on the times :p). But besides a movie theater, it's the biggest TV that I've watched Disney movies on. And there were parts (in 3 scenes) where Pacha's (2 scenes) and Kronk's (1 scene) outlines, their shoulder areas, were scraggly-lined. I wish I could explain it more. Do big TVs make non-HD hand-drawn animated movies look bad? The rest of the movie, for the most part, looked pretty decent, but the scraggly lines really looked off.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:46 pm 
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I know in stop motion they call that "chatter", not sure if that applies to hand drawn animation too but its the same idea. Its natural for that to happen whenever you are doing every frame by hand. Some movies/tv shows have more than others. But that chatter was always there, it was probably still noticeable in standard def.

But yes, HD TVs generally make non HD content look worse, because its capable of higher resolution its more obvious when it has to upscale SD stuff. That's more about the blurriness of it though. HD doesn't really affect the chatter. That's just how it was animated.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:55 pm 
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Thank you so much, Kyle!! :) So I maybe just never had noticed it before because I've only watched that movie on pretty small TVs. I've been meaning to watch Snow White, Pinocchio, and Sleeping Beauty soon, so I wonder if I'll be seeing "chattering" on those!!

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