Battle with the Forces of Evil: The Dragon Sequence

[Disney's Divinity]

No offense, but I find the climax of Sleeping Beauty to be somewhat of a letdown. When Maleficent's atop her tower, it's awesome. When she first transforms into a dragon (with the huge explosion), it's still awesome. But the battle's too short and isn't satisfying in my personal opinion. The score there is great though.

My personal pick for best Disney climax is Aladdin. Overall, not my favorite film, but there's no denying that Aladdin vs. Jafar is the best battle sequence I've seen from Disney (animated).

[Flanger-Hanger]

While the dragon fight on it's own might be viewed as short, keep in mind it comes after Phillip escaping from the Forbidden Mountain and going through the forest of thorns. The dragon is the big finish of the overall climax and is timed well to build up suspense. If it were longer it might throw off the overall pacing of the sequence which is meant to be rapid and suspenseful.

Aladdin's is hard to take seriously because of Genie's constant interruptions and I feel the music cannot compare with Sleeping Beauty.

IMO, The Great Mouse Detective, The Black Cauldron, 101 Dalmatians, Cinderella, Snow White, The Little Mermaid all have better climaxes than Aladdin.

[Disney's Divinity]

While the dragon fight on it's own might be viewed as short, keep in mind it comes after Phillip escaping from the Forbidden Mountain and going through the forest of thorns. The dragon is the big finish of the overall climax and is timed well to build up suspense. If it were longer it might throw off the overall pacing of the sequence which is meant to be rapid and suspenseful.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. The escape from the mountain, as well as the thorns, are meant to lead up to the dragon fight, yes. But the battle with the dragon is not a satisfying finish for me, because Maleficent-Dragon doesn't really threaten Phillip very much (he is never hurt in the sequence--never catches fire, is never bitten, and therefore the viewer cannot take Maleficent seriously as a threat because noone is ever harmed). And there's a lack of interest in Phillip's survival, because the character is not given enough screen time previously to make me care about him or maybe he just comes off as a cardboard cutout--though that's entirely opinion. As I said before, the sequence definitely has a great score, but score cannot save a sequence that fails otherwise for me.

Aladdin's is hard to take seriously because of Genie's constant interruptions and I feel the music cannot compare with Sleeping Beauty.

The best part of Aladdin to me, as compared to the other films you listed, is that you really get a sense that Jafar is near unbeatable (Maleficent doesn't give me that impression, because Phillip has magic on his side; although I think Ursula becoming a giant does so because Eric and Ariel are completely defenseless). As Jafar takes out all of Aladdin's companions one-by-one, performing magic left and right at the drop of a dime, the scene becomes more climactic because there is no possible way Aladdin can defeat Jafar one on one.

As for TBC, Cinderella or Snow White having better climaxes than it--you have to be kidding. I find all three unsatisfying in one way or another. The Horned King does too little and dies too easily. Cinderella's climax, as well as the rest of the film, revolves too much around the animals, when all I really care about are the human characters. Snow White is great when SW is being tempted to bite the apple, but the Old Peddler Woman is too weak and unthreatening against seven dwarfs.

101 Dalmatians is really incredible, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I find it better than Aladdin. I'd consider them equal at most. I really adore The Little Mermaid's climax, because it entirely suits the film, but Ursula does not act out as much as Jafar. To be honest, I can't remember the climax of TGMD clearly, but I remember it being good, but not above TLM and definitely not on the level of either Dalmatians or Aladdin to me.

[blackcauldron85]

And there's a lack of interest in Phillip's survival, because the character is not given enough screen time previously to make me care about him or maybe he just comes off as a cardboard cutout--though that's entirely opinion.

But if Phillip had died, Aurora and the whole kingdom would still be sleeping...!

Cinderella's climax, as well as the rest of the film, revolves too much around the animals, when all I really care about are the human characters.

Well, obviously this is all everyone's opinion, but just because you don't care for the animals doesn't mean that it's a weak ending!

The great thing about The Black Cauldron's climax is that the thing The Horned King wanted to use for evil (the cauldron) killed him...I mean, I guess in a way we could say the same for Maleficent- magic essentially killed her (Without the fairies' help, would Phillip have been able to kill her? Probably not.).

The Great Mouse Detective's climax is very thriling- a what-will-happen, edge-of-your-seat moment. And it involves not only the good guy and the bad guy, but Olivia's life is very much in danger, too. It's very much a physical battle between Basil and Ratigan.

I think the thing about Snow White's climax is that, throughout the whole movie, the Queen wants innocent Snow White to be killed...Snow White didn't do ANYTHING...she's completely blameless. Snow White was naive enough to eat the apple...without the huntsman's help, without the animals' help and without the dwarfs' help, surely she would've eventually been killed by the Queen.

[Flanger-Hanger]

Another thing about The Black Cauldron's climax is the fact that it doesn't end with the death of the villain but continues as the castle crumbles and Taran and gang must find a way to escape. I'm sure the uncut version is even better.

Cinderella's climax works for the film. It isn't a life or death battle in that film, it's a race against time to get Cinderella out and just about everything that could go wrong does (The mice after struggling to get the key up the stairs have to then fight off Lucifer and even after Bruno stops him and Cindy gets out, the shoe breaks). The suspense comes from the audience knowing their is only so much time for the stepsisters to get the shoe on and knowing it's quite hard for the little mice to face every hurdle that comes their way.

The scene where the dwarfs chase the queen up the cliff is great to, mainly because of the music (which sadly is not included on the soundtrack release) and the thunder effects and the sense of begin in a storm you get from the wind and water effects in the scene.

It's impossible to take Aladdin seriously because of the overall comedic tone, so it's harder to suspend disbelief and think that something bad could truly happen to these characters so their no need to root for the lead character to win (especially sine you got Genie in drag to do it for you). It lacks any memorable music and just never impressed me.

[ajmrowland]

I find Sleeping Beauty's climax to be unsatisfying. That, and 101 Dalmations'. Cinderella's was good, as was Aladdin's.

[Super Aurora]

This scene is most overrated scene in Disney. Hell, Pokemon had better battle scenes than this. First off Fairies hogged way too much of the climax. It wasn't dramatic. Philip didn't know how to swing a sword for his life(look like he was trying to swat away a fly in the air), Too much damn magic aka fairies doing all the fighting. It's like saying Tinkerbell beating the crap out of Captain Hook.

I just hate those damn fairies.

In fact after Philip talks to his father, he doesn't speak for the rest of the series. Same for Aurora.

Best climax is Aladdin. Him vs Jafar is way better than Philip vs Malificant.

[ajmrowland]

^I agree.

[Disney Duster]

The only thing that bugs me about the scene is that Flora or Fauna tells Phillip that "this is the last time we can help you" and then they go on to help him in almost every way conceivable.

I think you're thinking of Pinocchio, where the Blue Fairy warns Pinocchio she'll forgive him "this once" and that "this is the last time" she can help him. There is never a moment in this movie where the fairies say such a thing. Flora DOES, however, say that the dangers along the road, Phillip alone "will have to face", but that only applies when the Dragon shows up (you can see Flora pull Merryweather from helping Phillip, after which he almost gets killed do they truly give him help). But they never completely claim they won't give him a hand.

Flora actually says, "The road to true love may be barred by still many more dangers, which you alone will have to face."

Many more dangers. Not just Maleficent. Basically any danger after they left the dungeon. Which they helped him all on. Maybe some animation was finished before Walt told them, specifically, that he wanted the fairies to help Phillip fight.

What I don't like about the scene is that magic had to be used to "win". Wouldn't it be all the more impressive if 'love' was the forced that overcame evil? Instead, it's 'faeries', and 'reasonably good aim'. Disney Duster once posted something along the lines of "wouldn't it make sense that magic defeats what magic created" but really, that just undermines the whole storyline, leaving us non-magical beings nothing to take away.

Disney tries to marry magic with something that really occurs in/to humans. For instance, Phillip is the only one who can throw the sword to defeat Maleficent because he truly loves Aurora and Aurora truey loves him. Remember the fairies said they can't defeat Maleficent by themselves, so it wasn't all their magic, it also took human Phillip who humanly loves human Aurora. There's also many connections of belief with magic in Disney films, like if you believe, magic happens, etc. And of course the kisses of true love are magic. So Disney has real human being power be the magic or work the magic.

Anyway, I don't really think it was long enough time with or hard enough to get through the thorns, or long enough time with or hard enough to fight the dragon. I think the battle could've been staged better with better angles and perhaps something to make it look more dangerous or scary or in your face. Or just more difficult for Phillip. Maleficent should've done some damage to him. We should've seen her face almost coming at us, Monstro style. Something.

TonyWDA, you can't trust everything you read on the internet, especially from Wikipedia! In fact, you probably couldn't even trust a summary of the film officially from Disney. Everyone had different opinions on how everything in any film at Disney should be. The animators disagreed with Walt even. Someone that worked at Disney could write their opinion of the story and publish it in a book but it wouldn't be what everyone thought about the film. Only something directly from Walt might fly as official, and even then he might conceal the true intentions or meanings behind some things in the film, or just not bother to say them.

Disney's Divinity said a lot of great things about the climax that I agree with, and really are so true. Phillip never seems hurt or almost on fire or bitten or bleeding! You say it would be too much for a Disney film, but Maleficent bled. The fairies could heal his arm, too, and that wouldn't be considered fighting for him. Oh, but Divinity, I think the witch really could have killed those dwarfs with that boulder, I mean, yea she really would have were it not for the lightning.

I think the Sleeping Beauty climax has a lot of good things going for it, but it is not the best battle or climax ever in any Disney film ever.

[Siren]

Watching it again and thinking back...the princes before him...Phillip is pretty bad ass. Sure, he's helped by some fairies, but he is far more involved than other Disney princes in rescuing the princess. The battle is quite long if you count from Maleficent's castle to King Stephan's. And fighting the dragon. I think looking back to other Disney films, Disney has tried to replicate it...Jafar as the giant snake and Ursula as...giant Ursula...but Disney has yet to really live up to this battle. By far the best in Disney animation.

[xxhplinkxx]

and Ursula as...giant Ursula...

This totally made me LOL!!

God I swear, if I wasn't gay, I'd marry you!

[TonyWDA]

I'm very glad we're all having a very analyzed conversation about this climax, as it is my most favorite (I stressed that enough already). But as far as analogy and getting technical goes, we don't need to with this climax.

Sleeping Beauty is NOT the only Disney movie with technical flaws. Why didn't Pinocchio drown when he was searching for his father, but he did when he saved him? How DID Basil miraculously fly from the broken propellor just before hitting the ground (another one of my favorite climaxes)? How did the gang in Oliver and Company make it up the bridge, dodging the train, and then CAREFULLY placed themselves back WITHOUT falling over into the river? Almost every Disney climax has a flaw. And YES, even Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast; the films most of you consider the best without looking back to the true roots of Disney Animation (even though I love Aladdin, The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast).

[TonyWDA]

TonyWDA, you can't trust everything you read on the internet, especially from Wikipedia! In fact, you probably couldn't even trust a summary of the film officially from Disney. Everyone had different opinions on how everything in any film at Disney should be. The animators disagreed with Walt even. Someone that worked at Disney could write their opinion of the story and publish it in a book but it wouldn't be what everyone thought about the film. Only something directly from Walt might fly as official, and even then he might conceal the true intentions or meanings behind some things in the film, or just not bother to say them.

I don't believe everything I read. I actually have digital copies of the screenplay for this scene that state the fairies bless the sword. Therefore, it is up to Phillip to throw the sword. Phillip could have easily thought "Hey, screw it. They 'blessed' the sword, let it fly on it's own", but he still threw it. If you would like to see the screenplay for that specific portion of the scene, I'd be glad to post it.[/b]

[TonyWDA]

Yes! This is the most epic scene in a Disney film!

BTW, Hey, Tony. It's darthvalor07 from YouTube.

Hey darthvalor07!

Great to see you appreciate this scene (unlike the bunch who are analyzing it a bit much ).

[ajmrowland]

Well, the entire movie almost broke the bank, and this scene was not the first scene they animated. Poor staging was likely due to budgeting and they didn't have the aid of computers back then.

[TonyWDA]

Well, the entire movie almost broke the bank, and this scene was not the first scene they animated. Poor staging was likely due to budgeting and they didn't have the aid of computers back then.

It took nearly the entire 1950's to make and about $6,000,000-$8,500,000. Think of how heart-broken Walt and his crew felt when it only returned HALF the budget. The silver-lining here, however, is that it WAS a success to the general public and it was second at the box office (behind Ben-Hur).

[ajmrowland]

Well, the entire movie almost broke the bank, and this scene was not the first scene they animated. Poor staging was likely due to budgeting and they didn't have the aid of computers back then.

It took nearly the entire 1950's to make and about $6,000,000-$8,500,000. Think of how heart-broken Walt and his crew felt when it only returned HALF the budget. The silver-lining here, however, is that it WAS a success to the general public and it was second at the box office (behind Ben-Hur).

Exactly. I'm talking about the timing of when the scene was animated.

[Disneykid]

I think those who find the climax too brief are forgetting a quality that's inherent in EVERY Disney animated film ever made outside of Fantasia: Disney movies are rushed. Somehow, they don't usually feel rushed, but if you were to take the exact same script and film it in live-action, the insane pace is more noticeable. If you don't believe me, watch a random 10 minute section from any Disney animated feature and see how much story material is crammed in that time. Scenes usually don't go on longer than 2-3 minutes before they cut/fade to the next one. Taking the dragon fight out of context makes its briefness more glaring, but I think it works perfectly within the film's context.

Does the climax make sense logically? No, it doesn't. Phillip got through half a mile of thorns with ease, Maleficent spends more time snapping at Phillip when she can simply roast him, and the Fairies' principle on when or when not to intefer is hypocritical. However, like Woolie Reitherman said in the bonus material, it was less about logic and more about emotion. At this point in the story, you shouldn't care about how every action is mapped out. You should be invested in the characters' fates and their goals.

If you want a climax that honestly makes zero sense, take a look at the Platinum film that came out after Sleeping Beauty: Pinocchio. Why on earth would a whale be so insanely obsessed with eating a puppet and an old man, especially when he can't even taste and digest them? He's obsessed to the point of risking of his own life willing to smash himself against a rock formation. And then there's probably the biggest question I've ever had of a Disney film from a story perspective: how the HECK does Pinocchio die? He couldn't have drowned since we've seen him survive underwater. He still remained (amazingly) in one piece, so dismemberment's not a factor. If an elderly person like Geppetto can survive that blast through the rocks, I don't see how a puppet with no organs can.

And, yet, you want to know something? I absolutely adore Pinocchio's climax. It's hands down one of my favorites. All the questions I think of pertaining to that sequence vanish when I watch it because it's so thrilling. Once again, it's about stirring up feelings, not carefully calculating how it's going to work. I'm pretty sure I can go through every Disney climax and find that something's not quite right (How can Jaq and Gus get that key up there so quickly? Why don't Wendy and the Lost Boys use pixie dust to their advantage? How can Trusty get knocked out with a broken leg when the carriage isn't even on him?) I think the only exception to this would be Alice in Wonderland's chase sequence since that gets the convenience of being a dream.

My favorite is one no one has brought up, yet, though: The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Note that I'm excluding the needless and excessive comedy climax with the gargoyles and the soldiers, though. I'm talking about the scenes that surround it. The "Sanctuary!" scene may just be the most epically staged scene ever done for animation. The balcony climax with Quasi, Esmeralda, and Frollo may be conventional by Disney standards (how many Disney climaxes involve heights), but the presentation is dramatic and intense. The non-gargoyles climax of Hunchback gives me goosebumps every time I watch it.

[Disney Duster]

TonyWDA, as I said, not every artists had a say how the screenplay was, and could have had different opinions of what happened in the film, but anyway, I found the official draft of the scene that they told animators to animate and it says the fairy magic touches the sword and the sword follows the magic to the dragon's heart. Nothing about blessing, and revealing just how much work that magic did. Film threw the sword in the direction of the dragon, the magic actually did the aiming and hitting! But it doesn't matter if Phillip had any fighting skill, it was still his true love that gave the sword the full power intneeded to defeat the force of evil.

Disneykid, lacks in logic sometimes make you not believe in the scene and feel the emotion. But anyway, it is more that it didn't seem very hard for Phillip, and he didn't seem to get too hurt, that makes it so ineffective for me. It should've looked harder, scarier. And if more logic was used, like, okay, so if the thorns are this way, he would've gotten scratched here, nearly fell into the thorns here, almost impaled here, then it would've been more thrilling to watch!

You are right Disney scenes tend to be short. I just feel they could've gotten more in that battle. Quick scares might even have been enough, one lingering moment on the prince struggling instead of breezing through.

Pinocchio could easily have died or almost died (I think he almost died, Gepetto would probably not have prayed for him to awaken if he knew he was surely dead), because he was severely thrown into rocks that knocked him unconcious. Pinocchio was given the gift of life, consciousness (and a conscience!). He lost consciousness. When people lose it, they can die, usually after a long time without it. Make sense now?

And Monstro was after them because they smoked his mouth! He also embodies evil like many Disney villains do, not just acting on normal behavior but on evil will.

And, yet, you want to know something? I absolutely adore Pinocchio's climax. It's hands down one of my favorites. All the questions I think of pertaining to that sequence vanish when I watch it because it's so thrilling. Once again, it's about stirring up feelings, not carefully calculating how it's going to work. I'm pretty sure I can go through every Disney climax and find that something's not quite right (How can Jaq and Gus get that key up there so quickly?[/quote]
The cutting back from the mice going upstairs to the stepsisters and the goings on downstairs causes much more believability of them getting the key up the stairs in time than seeing Phillip get through everything extremely quickly. The camera stays on Phillip and what threatens him, it stays continuously in the scene that is happening too unbelievably quick. With the mice and the stepsisters, because it cuts, and with time-passing-indicating fades I might add, between the two, we are not sure how much time is spent. The stepsisters could have been trying to get into the slipper for a lot longer, dropping it, losing it, buffooning around, the Duke's messenger buffooning around, for a lot longer than they show all of. We don't have a good concept of time. Unlike with Phillip and Maleficent, where we are in the same time through one continuous battle. There is no cutting of time.

I'd like to see Hunchback again. Who knows when I will next get to though...?

[TonyWDA]

Does the climax make sense logically? No, it doesn't. Phillip got through half a mile of thorns with ease, Maleficent spends more time snapping at Phillip when she can simply roast him, and the Fairies' principle on when or when not to intefer is hypocritical. However, like Woolie Reitherman said in the bonus material, it was less about logic and more about emotion. At this point in the story, you shouldn't care about how every action is mapped out. You should be invested in the characters' fates and their goals.

That just about summarizes almost every Disney climax. Thank you.