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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:11 am 
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^It wasn't 7 years, it was only a few. The Rapunzel project has been going on for 7 years, but Glen onto joined in about half way through that to start the reworking of the film.

Anyhow, the thread title should be changed to something like "OMG ITS TRUE! Glen Keanne off of "Rapunzel"!!!" Pap64 :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:57 am 
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Marky_198 wrote:
Lasseter didn't like the latest cut of the film.

And Jeffrey katzenberg didn't like The Little Mermaid and wanted to cut Part of your world.

I think some people shouldn't be allowed to work in animation.

Or work in the entertainment business at all!

I can't remember, who was the one said that having Alan Menken on Frog or Rapunzel would be too "repetitive"?

To me, it says that they're not concerned about what the fans like, but what the general public might possibly find any interest in, which I find very disappointing.

Just heard about his sickness, and of course, I wish him the best.

Well, best of luck to him, and I still have a lot of faith in this film, since he did what he does best- animate; and I'm almost sure that his work will be breathtaking.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:13 am 
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This is a weird moment for me. I was just going to continue lurking as I usually do. I usually find nothing to say in a thread like this, because although gasping with shock, most of what I would normally say has already been said.

Nevertheless I thought it was kind of poignant how Glen's and Dean's names have already been erased from the Disney Animation website:

http://www.disneyanimation.com/projects ... index.html

*sigh*


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:51 am 
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I guess this may be a case of another one of Disney's losses is someone else's gain. It would appear that Dreamworks have wasted no time snatching up Chris Sanders for a few products.

He'll be directing Crood Awakening (previously an Aardman project), with a script co-written by none other than John Cleese (Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, A Fish Called Wanda).

On September 24, 2008, Steward Street Blog reported that Sanders and Lilo & Stitch co-director and co-writer Dean DeBlois will be screenwriting and directing How to Train Your Dragon for DreamWorks Animation.

As a big Sanders fan (check out Kiskaloo!), these will be ones to watch.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:58 am 
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What I wonder is whether or not Rapunzel is getting another rehaul (I know this isn't a word but whatever :P) or not.
I totally love that picture of the prince climbing up the tower, even if it is just concept art. I sincerely hope this film is still going to represent Glen Keane's initial vision.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:15 am 
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I just read this over at The Disney Blog. Ugh. I’m very upset- I’ve been a huge Glen Keane fan since I was 4 or 5. I already had issues with Lasseter, and this just pisses me off.

I wonder what Roy Disney thinks about this. Has he seen any of Rapunzel? Did he think that it was so bad that Glen needed to not be the director anymore? I value Roy Disney’s opinion…Lasseter’s, not so much.

And I had thought that Chris Sanders had been fired by Lasseter…so if he chose to step down due to not wanting to lose his artistic vision, then kudos for him (but why did he have to go to DreamWorks?).

I do hope that Glen’s health improves; I didn’t know that he was ill. I wonder how he’s taking this; he had worked on this film for so long; he left The Snow Queen to focus on Rapunzel, and now look what happened. :(

Ugh. John Lasseter boils my blood. I’ve been saying from the start that he should not be in charge of WDFA. He just shouldn’t. He’s a Pixar guy. Regardless of his background, his main priority has been Pixar for so long, that he can’t honestly have equal loyalty to both. At least that’s my opinion.

I love Disney, so of course I’ll still see Rapunzel…What wasn’t working? It better not become Unbraided once more…:angry:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:21 am 
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What's up with Rapunzel??? will it finally be released someday? Lasseter is really getting on my nerves now.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:42 am 
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It will be released someday, the company has poured too much money into the production. I'm just scared we'll end up with something like Tha Black Cauldron. Although I personally like it the film is a cocktail of too many different visions and way too much time in the studio (didn't it take over 10 years to make?).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:53 am 
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PatrickvD wrote:
2099net wrote:
You know, as an aside, we seem to be getting far more studio politics stories now, than when even the dreaded Eisner was in charge.


that is actually not true. Back then Jim Hill had people leaking info every week. All story changes were immediately leaked. we haven't had an update on Rapunzel in months.


Maybe, but did we have talent walking out or being fired? We all know Kingdom of the Sun and Sweating Bullets underwent massive changes, but I can't remember people walking out as a result. Keane may be ill which initiated this decision, but why has Dean Wellins supposedly been removed?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:20 pm 
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Its sad to see that Glen is having health problems at the moment but to be quite honest if i was in that situation i would step down as there is no way i would direct a whole disney feature film if i was ill.

Remember people though he's still working as a Exective Producer and Animating Director, not fired/quit like Chris Sanders. Everybody seems to be acting like he's stormed off from Disney for ever.

2099net wrote:
but why has Dean Wellins supposedly been removed?
As it said in the memo he is going off to develop three ideas for a brand new feature film and is working on his CG short with Disney.

I think that its nothing huge to get worked up about, yes its a shame that Glen + Dean are not making this film now but i still believe that its a little too early to bash John Lasseter and Disney as we havent' even seen a trailer for this yet (it is coming out in 2010 or 2011 if your in the uk :x ).

Anyway looking forward to Bolt, Princess + Rapunzel and King of Elves!
Carn't wait!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:30 pm 
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Wow, more reasons for me to believe that Lasseter is a complete idiot.....


But to be honest, I want to know what was so horrible about the cut he saw from Glen. If it was not a traditional fairytale style, then I say goodriddens! But I highly doubt that's the case. :roll: After watching Sleepying Beauty, I was hoping that Rapunzel could be a similar style film in CG.... obviously it would be more modern and what not though.....

I guess this is why they had nothing to say about Rapunzel at Comic-Con.... :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:34 pm 
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mrfivefingers wrote:
As it said in the memo he is going off to develop three ideas for a brand new feature film and is working on his CG short with Disney.


I'm not saying that's incorrect or that he didn't want to... but its rather like the equivalent or a somebody working in the police or army being given a desk job. Especially as there's no guarantee any of his ideas will get made into a feature film.

I'm inclined to think its PR speak for being politically removed.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:22 pm 
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2099net wrote:
pap64 wrote:

That's what I was thinking as well. Now that we know he is still involved in the picture we can start thinking logically about this.

This isn't anything new and Lasseter is known for these sort of decisions, even before he became one of the big wigs at Disney. First, Finding Nemo was heavily altered before it was released. The voice actors didn't work and many scenes didn't sell the film well enough. True, this was Eisner's doing, but I'm sure that Lasseter agreed to it and now the film is a beloved film.

Then came the Tinker Bell films. If the rumors are to be believed, the first versions were really bad. So Lasseter ordered to delay the film and work on it some more. As far as I know, people have seen the film at "El Capitan" and think it as a good, if not great, film.

Now "Meet the Robinsons". While he liked the film Lasseter ordered the director to change many story elements, focus more on Lewis' story (since it was inspired by the director's own life) and tighten the narrative a little more. The film was a surprise hit, especially since "Chicken Little" impressed so little.


Er. You do know Meet the Robinsons did about 33% less box office than Chicken Little? $98m compared to $136m? Enough with the Chicken Little bashings.

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People think that Lasseter fired Chris Sanders. According the stories I heard I believe Sanders refused to change the film and thus quit. It seems like Lasseter was just using the same suggestions he did on "Robinsons". Except that Sanders was too proud of it and thus got fired/quit the project.


It adds up to the same thing though. Bolt was Sanders, it was his idea, his story, his baby. No matter how involved Anderson was with Meet the Robinsons it wasn't really "his" story - it was an adaptation of somebody elses. So I can see him being more open to suggestions (which let's face it, were orders). I find Sanders dismissal offensive because Sanders created the single most marketable character for Disney in decades when left to his own devices, and could easily have done so again. (Pixars' films tend to be ensembles). In fact, Disney management had huge doubts about Lilo and Stitch at the time.

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While "Bolt" may not be the prettiest film ever the reaction at "Comic-con" was a surprisingly warm one. I think what happened to "Chihuahua" will happen to "Bolt". People are so strung over the Sanders issue and the film's visuals that they might miss out on an honest to goodness film.


It's an animated film. Visuals are important.

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Like I mentioned earlier, Lasseter is no saint. When there's money and time involved you sometimes HAVE to be rough in order to get the best results. But he doesn't look to be the type of guy that would kill anything that doesn't meet his taste. He was an artist. He worked on small films before creating his first movie. He didn't get where he is today just because he pushed and shoved all the way to the top. He had to work hard and impress people. Its just that now, he's the one calling the shots.


I agree and the same can be said of Jobs (another business leader who's often seen as a saint. Remember his temper tantrum about closing iTunes a couple of weeks ago just because he couldn't get his own way? Just like his public temper tantrums about Eisner during the Disney/Pixar distributor/purchase negotiations?).

I've nothing against Lasseter, Jobs, Eisner or whoever being businessmen, but I get annoyed when people can't accept that the public personna which is probably carefully controlled and managed isn't the real personna.

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The problem is that ever since the Pixar merger some fanatics are so high strung over it that they now see whatever they do as evil, vile and killing the Disney company. Last I heard, Disney still has control over many things. Second, if High School Musical and Hannah Montana haven't killed the Disney brand, nothing will :p .

Finally, now that we know that Glen is still involved with "Rapunzel" I think we should wait till the film (the same with "Bolt" and "Princess and the Frog") is released before claiming that Lasseter "killed it".


It's amazing everyone was screaming at Eisner, but nobody cares about the HSM/HM marketing. It's clear these are limited run properties for Disney (the actors will grow up) and yet Disney seems to be placing a heck of a lot of faith in them at the moment. But that's another issue for another thread.

I just find it odd people accept "management" changes when they come from John, but scream and shout when they came from other management in the past. Katzenburg did make some good artistic decisions (he also made some bad ones). Even Eisner made some good ones - remember it was Eisner who insisted on the Lion King stage musical.

Lasseter's decisions for Bolt do seem to make it sound generic, and overtly familiar too. That's why I'm down on Bolt. It appears "Disney"* just doesn't have the gall any more to do anything sufficiently different. If that attitude was around in the late 90's/early 00's who knows how Lilo and Stitch would have turned out? Cute fluffy alien pet wrongly accused of crimes helping an alien princess pursued by a wicked alien empress, helped by a young teenage earth boy just to the boy and the princess could fall in love?

Sanders work to me was exciting. Pixar's and Lasseter's so much is not, even it it is solid and satisfying.

The simple truth is, we'll never know if Lasseter's decisions were good or not. No one will see Sanders' Bolt. No one will see the original Meet the Robinsons. We can only take them on faith.

You know, as an aside, we seem to be getting far more studio politics stories now, than when even the dreaded Eisner was in charge.


* I use Disney is quotes, because this doesn't appear to be the thinking behind Pixar's own films which are increasingly experimental. Perhaps the problem is down to location and some people don't have as much access to Lasseter as others do to convince him of their story pitches?


This is going to be a long one to reply, but here goes...

1. About "Robinsons": I am aware that the film underperformed at the box office. But when I say "it was a surprise hit", I meant that after "Chicken Little" became a critical bomb people began to wonder if this was going to be Disney's animated future, and thus expectations were low for "Robinsons". But it seems that the film was strong enough to bring Disney back to the spotlight.

Also, the film underperformed for the same reason a lot of CG films, Pixar included, underperformed. The film suffered from the over saturation of CG films in theaters. It seems that ever since the end of 2005 CG films have been doing less and less, with only a few films becoming huge hits. Even then, people think they still underperformed when compared to the figures of yesteryear.

2. About Chris Sanders and his "baby": People seem to forget one thing...When you pitch an idea to a major studio (be it a videogame studio, movie studio, comic book studio, anime studio etc.) it doesn't matter if you are emotionally attached to it, if you have been working on it since you were a baby, if it means a lot to you or if you cherish is greatly. As soon as you pitch the idea you are allowing other people, including corporate suits, to work on it, change it to see it fit their agendas. Long story short, the idea and story stops being yours. The project now belongs to producers, directors, artists, animators, the big wigs signing the checks etc.

Its a harsh reality. If you want your idea to be seen by the world you have to swallow your pride and give in to the demands of the studio. Why? Because they are heavily investing on it. So can you blame them if they think the current version of the idea doesn't work? They are allowed to change it, and even put someone more dedicated and experienced to handle it if they think its important.

I agree that ideas handled by other people are never the same as the original one. But I think that if you want to turn an idea into something you just have to accept that the people working on it will see their take on it, bring new ideas forth and even change it completely. The ONLY way you can make sure your ideas are left untouched is if you are a well known, accomplished artists with YEARS of experience under his or her belt. And even then, they are still forced upon the people working on the picture.

If you don't want this to happen, the best way is to go solo, distribute your work independently.

3. About people giving Lasseter more credit: The reason I believe people are willing to accept (to an extend) his ideas and changes over Katzenberg is because when Katzenberg first entered the animation business he know absolutely NOTHING about it. He thought animated films were handled the same way as live action films. So the changes he demanded were seen as silly. Lasseter, on the other hand, has been working in animation for years. He has run a studio for years now and has experience working in films. So people are willing to take him more seriously because he has the experience and know how, while Katzenberg had to learn WHILE he was head of the animation department.

And yes, Steve Jobs is seen as a monster, but is also one of the best geniuses in the industry.

Regarding "Lilo and Stitch", I honestly think both Sanders and Disney got VERY lucky on this. I thought it was a neat little film with plenty of quirky humor. But it was also pretty forgettable. The TV series was a Pokemon rip-off and the three DTV movies (two which were basically extended episodes of the series) were alright. I think Disney got overly excited because the movie was one of the few hits of the year and they went crazy.

I wouldn't be surprised if somehow this success got to Sander's head and thought he could go into "Bolt" and expect the story unchanged.

Look, before I sound like I am bashing the guy, I think he has great talent. His style is very soft and quirky and he does have instances of genius. But he isn't THAT great and again, he just got lucky on one project, and Disney milked it for all its worth.

Yes, I think we have said enough on the matter. Glen Keane is still involved in the picture, the film will still move along and nothing will ever change (for now at least).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:01 pm 
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2099net wrote:
PatrickvD wrote:
2099net wrote:
You know, as an aside, we seem to be getting far more studio politics stories now, than when even the dreaded Eisner was in charge.


that is actually not true. Back then Jim Hill had people leaking info every week. All story changes were immediately leaked. we haven't had an update on Rapunzel in months.


Maybe, but did we have talent walking out or being fired? We all know Kingdom of the Sun and Sweating Bullets underwent massive changes, but I can't remember people walking out as a result. Keane may be ill which initiated this decision, but why has Dean Wellins supposedly been removed?


Wellins was assigned to co-direct and assist Keane, so with Keane gone I guess he wanted to move onto other things instead of starting over with someone else.

As for the late 90s/ early 2000's; Lots of directors and animators walked out the buidling back then, moving onto Dreamworks or Pixar. Some just decided to throw dirt, like Roy Disney and Andreas Deja who was notorious for trashing Stainton's regime.

The reason no director was ever fired was because when a director was doing a poor job, no studio exec would notice because they weren't artists. Lasseter would have probaply shut down troubled productions like Atlantis and Home on the Range or replace the directors. But does anyone think David Stainton could tell the difference between Beauty and the Beast in the making or a stinker like Atlantis? Of course not.

And I still don't understand why so many people are so shocked by all this. Most seem to have forgotten WDFA was dead. The studio was dead. Rebuilding it from scratch the way Lasseter and Catmull have been trying takes a lot of work.

And to those who talk about Rapunzel footage an how Lasseter is just some evil executive for hating it, here's a shocking wake up call: there was nothing. No footage. Test footage aside, there was, after 7 years, still no finished script or decently finished storyboard.

All we've heard of is how Keane is so excited about the new animation techniques and how stunning it'll look. Never once did anyone comment on the story. After 7 years, I would probaply make the same call.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:11 pm 
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I'm not buying the 'Keane was sick' thing. Yes, I believe he may be ill, but I think that's a cover-up for why he really got the boot. If it was just because he was ill, why did Dean Wellins get booted, too?

The fact they already changed the WDAS site seems like a slap in the face to Keane.

7 years...yes. But don't forget part of those 7 years were when Eisner was forcing Keane to make Rapunzel Unbraided which was like Shrek meets Enchanted. Keane was happy to be able to start working on his vision again around 2005 thanks to the management shift. So this vision has had only 3 years, if even.

Ironic how that the shift that saved his vision may now alter it, as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:52 pm 
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Osh kosh bagosh! Now thats just cold blooded... Poor Glen Keane...he's one of my favorite animators...Straight up COLD BLOODED.

Well...maybe this feature film will still be good...but c'mon Lassy...thats a dumb reason to fire someone geeze.

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 Post subject: one issue with CGI...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:41 am 
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..is the tools and processes keep changing. That can be a real distraction during the course of production. A lot of the tools 3D Artists used just a year or so ago have already changed substantially, and often for the better, allowing better animation.

Glenn was changing from traditional to 3D animation, and it __could__ be he got caught up in the technology. Hence, revisiting animation because it could be made __better__ with not having to completely start over.
However, these "tweaks" can add up. So can a director's desire to keep fussing with tiny details that become hugely important to him/her, but are miniscule to the audience. The time and cost add up fast.

I've worked on several films like that, and eventually the drag in production results in a revolt from the producers or executives, leading to the director being forced to get on with it, or being replaced.

Now I __cannot__ say this happened with Glenn, _but_ it has happened to other directors and editors on some productions I've worked on.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:09 am 
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it seems that this "rumour" is oficial, as disneyanimation.com says that Nathan Greno and Byron Howard will direct Rapunzel.

http://www.disneyanimation.com/projects ... index.html


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:23 pm 
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Sad. :cry:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:52 pm 
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why the need to be so upset? of course i too am disappointed that this will not be glen's directing debut...but as some have said..some artists r better off being simply animators or story artists or whatever they excel at..maybe glen's just not up to directing a full length feature yet..that doesnt mean he's lost his touch.

look at bill peet. he was an excellent artist whose work on jungle book didnt please walt.r we to say walt was foolish in his decision making?

the only way to see if lasseter knows what he's doing is if tinkerbell exceeds expectations storywise.then maybe we can really judge lasseter's decision making. (whether he's the rescuers or the silent killer to WDAS)

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