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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:56 am 
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I've had a search, and there are a lot of 'VS' debate amongst each villain, but not standing out from the search so much was who was the greatest villain of all time.

I use the term 'greatest' as it can apply to many things; the most wicked, the most ruthless, vile, evil, emotionless etc…

Who, to you, embodied all the greatest villainous qualities a Disney baddie should have ?

For me ? I think it is a tie between Lady Tremaine.

She has a key element for me; being human. That human, 'mother' character sinks to wicked depths out of pure spite and cruelty, and is not backed up by some fantastical sorcery element or big revenge plot; she is simply a wicked woman. The way she manipulates her daughters into both physically and mentally damaging Cinderella before she leaves for the ball is shocking, and is portrayed so well in the film.

To a lesser extent, and from personal experience, Mother Gothel is a terrifying character. I have dealt with behaviour like that from my own mother (remarks, slight digs so only you would notice); that all seemed very real, and very well portrayed on screen.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:15 pm 
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Used to have this debate with my sister before she passed away; for us, the final choice was unanimous. It’s not just tone or acts that one must consider. Lady Tremaine is an awful waste of faux humanity, agreed. Mother Gothel, a relative newcomer, would now make my Final Four. Doctor Facilier gets major cool points for powers and presentation. But I still hold Maleficent to be the #1 Disney baddie, sheerly because of how disproportionate her actions are. Lady Tremaine is horrible and manipulative, but at least she’s supposed to have her own natural daughters’ interests at heart. Gothel’s a liar, manipulator, and kidnapper, but ultimately it’s about self-preservation: she’s trying to stay alive (though much longer than is her due). Maleficent, on the other hand, as far as has been told so far, tried to off an infant because she didn’t get invited to a party. (Bonus points for being in the what is arguably most stylistically specific and visually gorgeous hand-drawn film produced in the Walt era, and the studio’s first ‘scope animated feature, plus an epic transformation and climactic battle.)

The success and degree of adoption of the upcoming feature into canon will undoubtedly muddy this water, unfortunately.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:30 pm 
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I'd vote Frollo, but I fricking love Frollo.

He tried to exterminate an entire race of people - major evils.
Similar to Tremaine, the emotional abuse (and at the end, physical abuse) of Quasimodo.
He is such a complex character with the religion theme thrown in.
The fact he is human and supposed to be religious makes him all the more scary.
I also say he has the best villain song.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:11 pm 
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For a female villian it's Lady Tremaine, it's how simple she is and how wicked she treats Cinderella that beats Maleficent (who is third) any day of the week; and for a male villian, it's obviously Frollo for reasons that everyone has pointed out.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Frollo. 'Nuff said.

Seriously, though, I do think the site needs to hold another 'Greatest Villains' countdown like the one featured on the main page. That one took place in, what, 2005? I'm sure that those ratings are pretty outdated by now. Characters have went up in estimation. Characters have went down. And NEW characters are now around to rank and rate. I'd love to participate in and see the results of such a forum-wide poll. Wasn't there discussion of doing that a few years back when we did the new Disney Animated Canon poll?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:48 pm 
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For realistic villains, either Lady Tremaine or Frollo (I think Hunchback is overrated, but Tony Jay makes Frollo phenomenal). For comedic villains, Yzma. As for overall, I'd put it between Lady Tremaine, Ursula, Scar, and Frollo, but that's just my opinion. I also think Hades and Shan-Yu are well-done, but they don't beat those four.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:54 pm 
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The stepmother, Ursula, Frollo and Gothel are my favourite villains.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:42 pm 
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For females, I gotta go with Mother Gothel, Lady Tremaine, and The Evil Queen.

for males, I gotta go with Jafar, Dr. Facilier, and Shere Khan.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:39 pm 
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I wanna say Frollo or Lady Tremaine, or Ursula, or Maleficent. But I haven't seen Hunchback in forever. I just now realize how killer Lady Tremaine is, how evil she is to Cinderella, torturous and degrading and life-ruining instead of just murderous.

Atlantica wrote:
To a lesser extent, and from personal experience, Mother Gothel is a terrifying character. I have dealt with behaviour like that from my own mother (remarks, slight digs so only you would notice); that all seemed very real, and very well portrayed on screen.

Byron Howard and Nathan Greno, the directors, asked women at Disney what mean things there mother said to them. I was shocked to hear that, because Mother Gothel is not her real mother. But since seeing the movie, she, to me, does have feelings of motherly love for Rapunzel and sometimes acts accordingly, but as a mean mother. When I saw the film with my mom, I whispered to her, "I know you really love me" because Mother Gothel was too convincing as a mother when she didn't love her the way a real mother should. I think the whole "I love you", "I love you more", "I love you most" dialogue shouldn't have been in the film because real mothers and children who truly do love each other do that! What if that makes families who do that feel like they don't really love each other?

By the way Atlantica, your mother should never do that to someone as sweet and wonderful as you!

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The success and degree of adoption of the upcoming feature into canon will undoubtedly muddy this water, unfortunately.

The live-action film won't be "canon". The 2014 live-action Maleficent will not be the 1950 animated Maleficent, the true Maleficent. They can't even be the same because they will both give Aurora different curses and the endings of their stories will be different.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:40 pm 
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The Coachman: He hides his true nature under a persuasive layer of benevolence. When we first meet him, we are reassured following Pinocchio's encounter with Stromboli that Foulfellow and Gideon are little leaguers compared to others.
Stromboli was much more blustery, and didn't try as much to hide his temperament. He also TELLS Pinocchio about his evil plans (a cliche among cartoon villains), which would otherwise affect only non-living marionettes, but still reveals his refusal to acknowledge his new star as any bit of human. The Coachman, on the other hand, operated a crime that affected REAL kids, and no one ever knew exactly how evil he was until they were too deep into his area of business. What's worse is that he is NEVER confronted, or punished, or defeated, nor does anyone ever find out about his underground operation. The only choice Pinocchio had was to escape and never look back. Once Lampwick and the other kids turned into donkeys, game over.

Also, unlike many Disney villains, The Coachman did not have any goofball sidekicks for comedy relief, as that role was already filled by Gideon for Foulfellow. He did have a gang of monster-like henchmen to his aid... :shock:

Scar: He made his disrespect for Mufasa known early on. What was worse was the trap he made to kill off Mufasa, but staged it to make it look like Simba was at fault. And then of course, sending Simba into exile with the intent of killing him off as well, AND sending Pride Rock into ruin once taking the throne. Pure lack of empathy on all accounts, even throwing his hyena friends under the bus when in a tight spot.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:38 am 
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I don't care what anybody else thinks, I love Hans. He's the best.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:22 am 
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Oh bless you Disney Duster, that's very sweet!

I truly think they did Mother Gothel so well in that sense; there are elements in her that reside in all women - wanting to look young and pretty, the fright of old age and the constant fight against the ageing process. The mother / daughter relationship is an extremely deep one, and can also be an extremely fragile one. I've seen mothers compete with daughters endlessly; weight, prettiness etc … in your daughter, some mothers can see a bit of themselves with something that they no longer have in their daughters - youth. Either you can embrace that and be proud, or upset that your time has passed.

With the love you more / love you most, I think it is designed so that Gothel always wins. How can Rapunzel top 'I love you most' ? It is something else that Gothel has to trounce her with.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:36 am 
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Most realistic/ruthless- Frollo- He's such a portrait of the medieval men in power, it's quite scary to see him. Though I imagine if he hadn't had the inmense power of being a judge, he wouldn't have done much.

Man is also scary in that he's a presence, more than a character. He's like the Grim Reaper for the animals in Bambi.

Of the fantastical elements, the Horned King is scary as hell. He gets flayed alive before turning to dust... :huh:

Funniest- Tie. Charisma plays a lot with these characters. Hook, Prince John, Ratigan, Ursula, Hades, Yzma, Facilier...All of them memorable and sometimes more interesting that the heroes (i'm talking about Hook vs Pan).

I like Shere Kahn, as well. He's got this sense of class and elegance, much like Maleficent.

Worst villain of all- Edgar. He's so pathetic and harmless, a bunch of stray cats defeat him. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:06 am 
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Atlantica wrote:
With the love you more / love you most, I think it is designed so that Gothel always wins. How can Rapunzel top 'I love you most' ? It is something else that Gothel has to trounce her with.


That makes sense. I've never thought of it that way before. I like this interpretation.

Gothel is a scary character. Especially because she is supposed to be Rapunzel's 'Mother'. We all expect a certain level of care and love from our Mothers and it can leave you very isolated and awkward when you don't have that. I always feel awkward for Rapunzel when watching it. An awkward feeling like - 'I don't know how to feel about this'.
My Mother and I make mean jokes towards each other all the time but we understand the context of it and it's no problem. If one of you isn't on the joke, it becomes bullying and Rapunzel was never in on the joke.

I've liked how ambiguous Disney was with 'does she/doesn't she love Rapunzel'? I think in her own warped way she did. But defending Disney, having Gothel clearly love Rapunzel would have made it impossible for the audience to hate her and that is not what we want from a Villain.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:53 am 
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Chernabog is another great villain.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:03 pm 
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MeerkatKombat wrote:
I've liked how ambiguous Disney was with 'does she/doesn't she love Rapunzel'? I think in her own warped way she did. But defending Disney, having Gothel clearly love Rapunzel would have made it impossible for the audience to hate her and that is not what we want from a Villain.

Tbh, I don't think they were ambiguous at all. Gothel clearly only cared about Rapunzel because her hair couldn't be unattached from her body. To me, that's why Gothel fails as a character (for me). That, and Donna Murphy is just kind of average for me. I do like parts of "Mother Knows Best," though it's not perfect.

To me, Gothel and Facilier are third tier villains.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:17 pm 
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I would say overall Frollo is the greatest. He is so terrifyingly real and demented. Tony Jay really brought the character to life in a chilling way. Hellfire is the one of the greatest moments in animation history. Lady Tremaine would be a close second. She's not an evil witch out for revenge she simply makes Cindy's life a living nightmare simply because she can. And the fact that she has her own daughters best interest at heart makes her an even more interesting character at least in my opinion. And I agree the Coachman is a scary character made even scarier because he is never defeated.

Mother Gothel is very evil as well. Kidnapping, manipulative, a liar, bully and very passive aggressive. I think her motive is interesting as well. She wants to remain alive and young forever. I think it's a very human motivation. Who wants to get old and die? @Atlantica I like the whole new light you put in the "I love you more/I love you most" bit. It is definitely something Gothel would do. Cruella and Medusa are pretty awful too. Both are kidnappers. Cruella wanted to skin puppies which is awful. Medusa verbally and emotionally abused an orphan and endangered her life so she could get a diamond. The she turned on the girl and her own partner in crime.

As far as funniest villains. Yzma, Hades, Ratigan, Prince John, Ursula.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:53 am 
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thedisneyspirit wrote:
Worst villain of all- Edgar. He's so pathetic and harmless, a bunch of stray cats defeat him. :lol:


Yeah agree, Edgar is the worst. Makes it even more worst with how a momma's boy ( Prince John ) can be more dangerous and threatening than he was. :/


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:11 am 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
MeerkatKombat wrote:
Tbh, I don't think they were ambiguous at all. Gothel clearly only cared about Rapunzel because her hair couldn't be unattached from her body. To me, that's why Gothel fails as a character (for me). That, and Donna Murphy is just kind of average for me. I do like parts of "Mother Knows Best," though it's not perfect.


Hmmm I'm not sure about that; they could have had Mother Gothel be cold and hard with Rapunzel as Lady Tremaine is with Cinderella, but they chose a very different relationship for the two characters. I think love may be too muddle a term to use for them, but there was certainly an affection from Gothel, for want of a better word. Why would she bother making Rapunzel's life so comfortable? She knows what Rapzunel likes ("I'm making your favourite, hazelnut soup!") and she goes on a long journey (as she had done previously) to get her the egg shell paint for her birthday.

I'm not saying that she is the greatest villain, as she isn't, but the question of 'love' from Gothel to Rapunzel in certainly there in some form, but the ambiguity is still there.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:42 am 
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^That's my argument.

If she didn't have any kind of affection for Rapunzel she wouldn't go on three day treks for a special paint or make that hazelnut soup.

Is hazelnut soup even a thing?
Apparently it is. http://family.go.com/food/recipe-953126-rapunzels-squash-and-hazelnut-soup-t/

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