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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:15 am 
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DancingCrab wrote:
Just purchased a 42" 3D Plasma by Panasonic at Best Buy. My plan was to just go in and look at the TVs and then order one off NewEgg or Amazon, but they had the exact TV there that I was eying online and it was $100 cheaper (First time that's EVER happened at Best Buy) I used that $100 to buy the 2 year service plan. Now hopefully my Best Buy won't be one of the ones just announced as closing. But knowing my luck it will. :lol:

I set it up and had just enough time to play a little of Tangled, and the image and motion is a MILLION times better than the Phillips LED/LCD I returned last week. Will be getting the "Disney WOW" from my friend tomorrow to adjust the settings.


Congrats on the new Plasma TV! :party:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:09 am 
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Congratulations on your choice. I am sure that all the research led you to this decision. I hope that you enjoy your new HDTV and get a lot of use out of it. Word of caution: Don't calibrate it until after at least 100 hours, and I am sure that the Best Buy folks told you that when they tried to sell you the Geek Squad Calibration set. All Hi-Def televisions must have a burn-in time or time of use, of a minimum of 100 hours before you make any 'fine tuning' adjustments. Ask questions before you do this any earlier and see what you are told.

Whether you use a THX-Optimizer Disc, or the WOW Disc, or whatever method you will use to calibrate it, wait for those 199 hours to pass or all your adjustments will be in vain.

Again, congrats on your choice, and sit back and enjoy.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:17 am 
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As far as the topic of this thread goes, I own LCD TVs (2 of them, to be precise), but prefer neither. But for the moment, merely as a stop-gap, I find LCD to be the easier compromise to live with. It's more energy efficient, cooler, and less finicky than its plasmatic rival. The picture quality is also reasonable, assuming you can afford a higher-quality model.

Plasma is more of an evolution of CRT, and does have better picture quality potential, dollar for dollar. You can get LCDs with exceptional image quality, but it'll cost a good deal more than an average plasma. A full-array LED LCD (not merely edge-lit LED; this distinction is incredibly important, but rarely noted properly at big box stores and even more rarely understood by consumers) gives very good image quality, but they still cost an arm and a leg. When most households are looking for sub-$1000 flat-panel TVs, most people aren't going to pay much attention to $2000-$3500 models when the screen sizes are no bigger than the edge-lit equivalents.

I'm looking to OLED TVs in the future, which will put both existing display technologies to shame. We've already seen some small-scale use of this technology in high-end cellphones and other mobile devices, but up until very recently it wasn't financially feasible to produce larger displays due to failure rates during manufacturing and other cost issues. OLEDs combine various advantages of both LCD and Plasma, and don't suffer from many of their weaknesses.

OLEDs require no backlighting (perhaps the biggest bane of LCD tech) since, like Plasma, each individual pixel is its own light source. Nor does it run hotter, and nor would it be prone to burn in, as Plasmas can be. The color reproduction and black levels are also magnificent, another pro from the plasma category. They're also supposed to be extremely energy efficient, and they can (literally) be paper-thin.

Initially, of course, it will just be used to create even thinner (and much lighter, with no backlight apparatus to worry about) "normal" TVs, however in the future they could be used to create "rollable" displays. Imagine a tablet you could just roll up like a sheet of laminated paper, or a large transparent display so thin you could attach it to the wall as if it were wallpaper and you'd never even know it was there until it was turned on. Or affix it to a window, wirelessly connect it to a computer, and recreate the type of windows Tony Stark had in his bedroom in the 'Iron Man' flicks. OLED technology has incredible potential.

LG showcased their first OLED television, a 55" model that'll go on sale sometime in Q3 or Q4 this year, at this year's CES; and while the pricing will be prohibitive (nobody's sure yet, but probably in the $8000-10,000 range) they'll eventually come down. The important thing is that when these become more affordable, perhaps in late 2013 or 2014/15, they'll finally start the process of putting plasma and LCD both to bed.

dvdjunkie wrote:
Wait a minute!!! 24fps???? What are thinking. 24 Frames Per Second is the rate of speed that motion picture film travels through the aperture of the projector.

You want to make sure than you have your Blu-ray set for 1080p, and also 16x9. I own an LG 55" HDTV Monitor with an Insignia Blu-ray player, and have never heard of what you are trying to describe.


Most modern theatrical content on a Blu-Ray is stored at 24fps (or 23.976fps, really, though the difference is imperceptible). Although no consumer LCD televisions actually operate at this refresh rate, they all have a method of tackling it when a Blu-Ray player sends it to them. An ordinary, cheapo 60Hz set uses 3:2 pulldown which duplicates every odd frame twice and every even frame once (hence the 3:2 ratio) to fill the 36 frame deficit between 24fps and the refresh rate of 60Hz. The result of that uneven frame duplication can be a little distracting and jerky, usually referred to as "judder". Since the OP didn't opt for a 120Hz TV (correctly shunning motion interpolation, but not realizing that 120Hz had other advantages) when trying out an LCD, maybe this was part of the problem he had with its display of motion.

A 120Hz TV, when the motion interpolation feature (cause of the notorious "soap opera effect") is turned off, allows for an even frame cadence using 5:5 pulldown: every frame is repeated 5 times per second, essentially becoming 24fps (or closer-looking to it, anyway). Not all 120Hz TVs are programmed for 5:5 pulldown, however; it's something someone needs to check on before they buy a particular model.

Most Blu-Ray players have a setting to export native 1080/24p when that's what's on the disc, which partners with your television's pulldown method to create a more "theatre-esque" viewing experience, or so the industry claims.

dvdjunkie wrote:
ajmrowland wrote:
Quote:
also be wary of artificial speedup settings


Just what do you mean by that? I have never heard of a Blu-ray player that has these settings.


Sounds like he's referring to the motion interpolation, which I mentioned above. It's a television setting, not a Blu-Ray player setting. No TV will actually call it "motion interpolation", however; every manufacturer has their own branding for the technique (Sony = MotionFlow, LG = TruMotion, Samsung = Auto Motion Plus, and so on). But Samsung is definitely not the only brand that has it; they all do.

Essentially, on 120Hz or 240Hz LCD TVs the feature uses a predictive algorithm to examine the frames of a video in order to create new frames to go in between them. Because these TVs refresh either 120 or 240 times each second, and LCDs are fixed-framerate displays; unlike CRT monitors they can't alter their refresh rate... a 120Hz panel must refresh 120 times each second. But a film only has 24 stills per second for it to work with, so to fill these gaps the television either needs to repeat certain frames (the aforementioned 3:2 pulldown, 5:5 pulldown, etc.) or it can use these algorithms to create new intermediate frames based on the existing ones.

It's supposed to give the motion a "smoother" look. But IMO, the algorithms also give the image a very artificial look and it's usually very distracting and makes the film look as if it was shot on cheaper video. Hence the name "soap opera effect". It's almost as if it triggers some subconscious recognition of artifice in the motion of what's happening on screen, and maybe that's what it is... the DSP is only consumer-tier, after all; and how good is anything consumer-level really going to be? You end up with more of those predicted frames than real ones. Even if it's almost right, almost isn't enough when it comes to natural motion. Something is either natural, or artificial; and the human brain is pretty good at distinguishing the difference.

About the only content I can see benefiting from motion interpolation is fast-paced sporting events that have no particular atmosphere it's necessary to preserve.


Last edited by TM2-Megatron on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:39 am 
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If any of this was in English for the lay-man, then it might have been informative. All I read is a lot of gobbly-gook that makes no sense to me.

I personally think you don't know what the heck you are saying and you are probably one of these 'brain-iacs" that thnks they can conquer the world one syllable at a time.

The average human being, of which I think I am one, can't see half of what you are talking about. The 24fps you talk about is something that I know a lot about because of my 30 years experience as motion picture projectionist.

It is very disappointing that using all this $50-dollar words makes people think you know a lot of what you are talking about. But I am probably in the minority here, but I like my HDTV just the way it is and I have never seen anything like what you try to describe, because I don't mess around with any of the settings.

I followed set-up instructions, and got the 100 hours into the set, had it professionally calibrated, and have been a happy camper ever since. I have no idea or knowledge of anything that you talk about, so I don't know how of it is "blue sky" (another word for b-s) or how much of it you actually know about.

All I can say is that if you have more money than brains, then you go spend $10,000 on your television set, and I still think you will try to find something wrong with it because you like to push buttons and fool around with settings and aren't happy until you see what you want to see the way you want to see it.

This is not a personal attack on you, so don't take it that way. But there are some people here that just don't understand your jibberish. I would like to know what qualifications (education, degrees, age) you have to think that you are such a 'techno-geek' we should listen to you.

I apologize for the rant, but it had to be said.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:12 pm 
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dvdjunkie wrote:
If any of this was in English for the lay-man, then it might have been informative. All I read is a lot of gobbly-gook that makes no sense to me.

Er . . . it's not that difficult to understand. And instead of just acknowledging that you don't understand, you accuse TM2-Megatron of spouting off nonsensical BS. Nice. :roll:

It's posts like these that make me wish Luke would update the forum to something that would allow us to create ignore lists.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:43 pm 
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dvdjunkie wrote:
If any of this was in English for the lay-man, then it might have been informative. All I read is a lot of gobbly-gook that makes no sense to me.

I personally think you don't know what the heck you are saying and you are probably one of these 'brain-iacs" that thnks they can conquer the world one syllable at a time.


I simplified it as much as was possible, and deliberately went into specifics on certain points so it would be easier for someone to understand the few technical terms I couldn't avoid using.

Everything I spoke about is quite true, and easily verifiable.

dvdjunkie wrote:
...But I am probably in the minority here, but I like
my HDTV just the way it is...


I'm happy with mine, as well. For now. But the entire LCD vs. Plasma battle is on the verge of changing significantly when OLED becomes more commonplace and affordable in a few more years. TVs will become available with the pros of both and fewer drawbacks than either.

dvdjunkie wrote:
... and I have never seen anything like what you try to describe, because I don't mess around with any of the settings.

I followed set-up instructions, and got the 100 hours into the set, had it professionally calibrated, and have been a happy camper ever since. I have no idea or knowledge of anything that you talk about, so I don't know how of it is "blue sky" (another word for b-s) or how much of it you actually know about.


That's very possible. And if you've never noticed any of the technical limitations that current flat-panels are subject to, it shouldn't be that important to you. There are a lot of people who don't notice 3:2 pulldown judder on 60Hz TVs until the symptoms are actually pointed out to them, simply because their brains are used to it and consider it normal. And there are even people who prefer the "soap opera effect" of motion interpolation, as well as those who are just indifferent to it. Most 120Hz and 240Hz TVs come with it turned on by default (and it's almost always left on for store displays in places like Future Shop and Best Buy), though a professional calibrator will probably turn it off. But there are also many who actively dislike it; particularly those who like the traditional look of film.

dvdjunkie wrote:
All I can say is that if you have more money than brains, then you go spend $10,000 on your television set, and I still think you will try to find something wrong with it because you like to push buttons and fool around with settings and aren't happy until you see what you want to see the way you want to see it.


All new technologies start off at those price points. The first LCD and Plasma HDTVs probably cost a good deal more than $10,000 in their day. While it's annoying, it's also to be expected. Those people with "more money than sense" are essentially helping to establish the new technology, and even indirectly subsidizing future, cheaper models for the rest of us. The toys of the wealthy today belong to the masses of tomorrow.

I certainly won't buy an OLED at the first generation prices. Image quality is important to me, but I'd rather wait another 2 or 3 years and pay a third of that price for a more refined model. Or even less than that, considering how much faster new technologies come down in price these days than they did at the beginning of the HDTV era. I certainly intend to buy one, though. The improvement over both LCD and Plasma will be too extreme to ignore.

dvdjunkie wrote:
This is not a personal attack on you, so don't take it that way. But there are some people here that just don't understand your jibberish.


Enigmawing didn't seem to have an issue with it. As I said, I simplified as much as possible. I think that even if someone has no background with digital video formatting and presentation, if they make an effort, my post will be pretty easy to understand.

dvdjunkie wrote:
I would like to know what qualifications (education, degrees, age) you have to think that you are such a 'techno-geek' we should listen to you.


Education in this field? None at all. I'm a computer science major, and learned next to nothing about digital video and nothing at all about film at school. My qualification is simply being interested in this topic, and doing a great deal of research before buying any HDTVs myself.

I've also been editing digital video formats as a hobby for a number of years in Sony Vegas Pro, Adobe Premiere Pro and Adobe After Effects. Primarily it's just for fun, but I've done a few (nominally) paid projects for family or friends who've had many years worth of home video and wanted it streamlined and available on DVDs. Stuff like that gave me a good introduction to the common frame rates associated with digital video, and helped a great deal when I was looking into buying my first HDTV and investigating the exact methods by which these TVs handle the various types of content people are apt to play on them.

My age, I suspect, isn't a high enough number for you to think of as a qualification, lol. It's been a few years since I posted on these forums, however I have a very good memory and do remember you.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:45 am 
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From what I understand the 24fps thing TM2-Megatron mentioned is correct. I have the setting on my HDTV and Blu-ray player. The short time I had a PS3, it also had the setting.

OLED will be interesting to see how it rolls out, and drops in price. Its a nice tech. I think Plasma's did cost as much as the OLED's did at one time. Of course everything gets cheaper. Remember the first Blu-ray players in 2006 at $1,000? Now you can get a player that is faster and does more for around $100.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:54 am 
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DarthPrime wrote:
Remember the first Blu-ray players in 2006 at $1,000?

I remember DVD players being that price in 1997. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:23 am 
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Thanks for all the info TM2-Megatron, I did read about the OLED TVs during my research, and it does sound like something awesome down the line, but I needed a TV now, and within a certain price range, and the Panasonic Plasma I picked, best suited my current needs within what I could afford (the LCD/LEDs of the same price were far inferior products) I've been extremely happy with the picture, and even sound quality on it without having hooked up any surround speakers or a sound bar even. Once I've had it a while longer, I will look into getting a proper calibration done by a professional, but I don't think it's quite "broken in" yet, so I'll wait a little while longer before doing so.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:16 am 
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Glad the Panasonic is working out for you. They make great Plasma TVs.

enigmawing wrote:
DarthPrime wrote:
Remember the first Blu-ray players in 2006 at $1,000?

I remember DVD players being that price in 1997. ;)


Yeah I remember that too.

My first DVD player was a DVD-ROM around 98 or early 99. Its was a lot cheaper to add that to my computer than to buy a stand alone player at the time.


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