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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:28 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
That's an opinion...



5star wrote:
There is no after life, or spirit or soul.

this, yes it is an opinion.


but....



5star wrote:
your brain, which is responsible for your personality, memory etc, and that decomposes along with your body when you die, so basically everything that is you will eventually decay away into the earth..Sad I know, but theres no escaping it, It happens to every living thing, you just need to accept it, forget it and just enjoy life as much as you can.


this, no, it's fact proven, DD.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Agreed with SuperA.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:27 pm 
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True, the body decays, but until a field-expert can die and come back to life to tell us all about it, it’s not a fact that an afterlife/soul/etc. doesn’t exist and that all that is "you" decays with your brain and body.

As for myself, I’m not afraid of death or the idea that there’s nothing after, though I’m not looking forward to the act of dying. I’m more afraid of being old, tbh.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:41 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
Agreed with SuperA.


man, Lazario agreeing with me twice in a row! What has the world comes to!!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:57 am 
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Heartless wrote:
I'm interested in hearing why you believe in Christianity over other religions that offer explanations of the same things you mentioned above.. Because if another religion offers explanations to everything you stated, what makes you believe one over the other?

I have already said it is because of things like how the Bible is tied to History and also how many things in it just sound the most amazing and right to me (just not everything in it). What it says about God and Jesus and just the most compelling to me. And things like...God making things exist because he said so, which is metaphoric, sounds more believable and metaphoric than the stuff about gods giving cosmic birth or giant turtles with elephants or whatever other religions say that sound they are metaphoric either. Plus the whole monotheistic idea of God which I believe more, it was only introduced in Judeo-Christianity.

Goliath wrote:
The answer, of course, is because he has been taught to believe in Jesus Christ. Had he been born in Pakistan, he would believe in Allah and Mohammed. I've explained that to him before, but the refused to believe it. But, Duster, Jesus didn't came to you. You were led to Jesus by others.

Not quite. It is true that if I was born in another country I may never have heard of Jesus. But as I explained before, the reason you like Disney is not just because you were introduced to it. Other people around you didn't like Disney. There was something about Disney you liked. The same is for me and religion. Plus, yes, I feel God and Jesus's love and feel they're real.

5star wrote:
Oh, I see. You fear death.

There is no after life, or spirit or soul..what you think is your spirit or soul is simply your brain, which is responsible for your personality, memory etc, and that decomposes along with your body when you die, so basically everything that is you will eventually decay away into the earth..Sad I know, but theres no escaping it, It happens to every living thing, you just need to accept it, forget it and just enjoy life as much as you can.

No I don't fear death, except possibly a little. Everyone who ever has lived fears death at least the tiniest bit, and anyone who says they don't is lying, even to themselves.

If you can be happy thinking all you are and have ever done will be as if they never were, I think you are more ignoring death rather than accepting it. But if you truly are content with that, than that is you, while I attain for something more and lasting. But I do know that every person who lives also does wish to attain that as well.

The brain is not responsible for all those things you said. There have been experiments and theories which suggest that the brain does indeed account for a lot of that, but never all, scientists could never figure out all that a person is, otherwise, all people in the world would pretry much be screwed and easily controlled by science right now, but anyway, they are also only theories. There is know way they can truly know if what they think about the brain is true. They only have observable evidence. Plus, my latest psychology book even states there are unknown factors in personality and human behavior. So if you only wanted to listen to science, there's even that.

Also, I don't know why anyone would want to believe their brain and body are responsible for such things. You get your brain and body from your family, but you only turn out a certain percentage like them, you have your own traits that are different from anyone in your family that make you unique and truly you. If you were only your brain and body you would be only like just half your mom and dad and you could be easily controlled by science, like I said.

Super Aurora, see above.

Disney's Divinity, now we agree, and you're awesome.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:21 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Also, I don't know why anyone would want to believe their brain and body are responsible for such things. You get your brain and body from your family, but you only turn out a certain percentage like them, you have your own traits that are different from anyone in your family that make you unique and truly you. If you were only your brain and body you would be only like just half your mom and dad and you could be easily controlled by science, like I said.


Let me just set this straight.. just because you get your brain from your parents does not mean that you have to think and act like them. You obviously develop your own thoughts, personalities, opinions, etc. because that is the power of any human brain. It allows any one to think and act for themselves.. it doesn't make anyone half their mother and half their father.

You haven't said which things in particular you believe are not controlled by the brain, and otherwise controlled by a soul.. Until you provide examples, I will not be convinced.. because personalities and memory are definitely (factually) determined through the brain.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Heartless wrote:
Disney Duster wrote:
Also, I don't know why anyone would want to believe their brain and body are responsible for such things. You get your brain and body from your family, but you only turn out a certain percentage like them, you have your own traits that are different from anyone in your family that make you unique and truly you. If you were only your brain and body you would be only like just half your mom and dad and you could be easily controlled by science, like I said.


Let me just set this straight.. just because you get your brain from your parents does not mean that you have to think and act like them. You obviously develop your own thoughts, personalities, opinions, etc. because that is the power of any human brain. It allows any one to think and act for themselves.. it doesn't make anyone half their mother and half their father.

You haven't said which things in particular you believe are not controlled by the brain, and otherwise controlled by a soul.. Until you provide examples, I will not be convinced.. because personalities and memory are definitely (factually) determined through the brain.



Don't bother. Duster is just insanely delusional about reality.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:55 pm 
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^

That's not it. It's just that the gibberish he writes is so absurd and 'out there', that it's impossible to come up with a counter-argument, because there is no argument against gibberish. I read things like: "it's because how the Bible is tied to history" and I think: what the fuck? Isn't the Qu'ran tied to history? Or ancient Greek or Roman scriptures? And what does that even mean, "tied to history"? That's the problem with Duster's posts: they don't actually mean anything. Like "the Bible makes things sound so amazing" is no reason to declare it believable, far from that, yet he does. So, like I said, when no arguments are given, you can't give a counter-argument. And that's why discussions with Duster ultimately never lead anywhere.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:57 pm 
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yep, he's usually insane.


but to think of humans and animals as just systems like that is depressing-enough so to lead to destructive thoughts and behavior.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Disney Duster, I would very much like you to answer this question: Why do you believe in the Christian God? All I want is a simple, coherent answer.

Why do you have faith in the Bible, when it is (particularly in the Old Testament) blatantly sexist and homophobic? If 'God' is all-loving and all-knowing, then why does evil exist? Why doesn't he answer our prayers even though Jesus said in the New Testament that he would always answer prayers?

I have been to church many times, and not once have I heard evidence of God's existence, or something which makes me actually want to like this despicable 'God' character. Even if God did exist, I would dislike him due to his allowance of evil people and disasters to take place in the world. Give me one reason why I should like the fictitious God character, and why I should believe in him.

You can't. There is absolutely no actual scientific evidence to prove the existence of God, and like other unprovable hypothesis, the ridiculous God theory must be discarded and forgotten.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
That's not it. It's just that the gibberish he writes is so absurd and 'out there', that it's impossible to come up with a counter-argument, because there is no argument against gibberish. I read things like: "it's because how the Bible is tied to history" and I think: what the fuck? Isn't the Qu'ran tied to history? Or ancient Greek or Roman scriptures? And what does that even mean, "tied to history"? That's the problem with Duster's posts: they don't actually mean anything. Like "the Bible makes things sound so amazing" is no reason to declare it believable, far from that, yet he does. So, like I said, when no arguments are given, you can't give a counter-argument. And that's why discussions with Duster ultimately never lead anywhere.

This makes so much sense, its not even funny.. This is the perfect description.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
Disney Duster, I would very much like you to answer this question: Why do you believe in the Christian God? All I want is a simple, coherent answer.

Unfortunately, Duster's response is predictable. It sounds "amazing and right" to him, and also it is "tied to history." He'll say he's answered already, pull out something he'll make up, and call it an answer - when in fact, it doesn't answer in the least. (hence why you had to re-ask this question)..

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
And things like...God making things exist because he said so, which is metaphoric, sounds more believable and metaphoric than the stuff about gods giving cosmic birth or giant turtles with elephants or whatever other religions say that sound they are metaphoric either.

they seems equally the same. In fact I would argue that many Asian religions are much much more believable than the Abrahamic religions.

Disney Duster wrote:
Plus the whole monotheistic idea of God which I believe more, it was only introduced in Judeo-Christianity.
It was introduced even earlier than that by Hindu. They did developed many gods but they are also apart of one God(just like Christianity!). Hindu has a very complex idea of a deity but they started monotheism before Judaism as Hinduism is a much older religion.


Disney Duster wrote:
If you can be happy thinking all you are and have ever done will be as if they never were, I think you are more ignoring death rather than accepting it. But if you truly are content with that, than that is you, while I attain for something more and lasting. But I do know that every person who lives also does wish to attain that as well.


Because no one ever like dying. It's human nature. Animals are like that too. The point 5star making is that he able acknowledge that fact of death and that once your gone, your gone. He pointing out how the idea of spirits to afterlife -(and funny enough it's the Christian religion who are most obsess with this concept. Not even Jews pay much focus or attention in it in their religion. Hell, their afterlife is an underworld not much different from Greek's)- is an escapism ideal and mechanism for human to not fear dying as greatly and they he a purpose on afterlife.


Disney Duster wrote:
The brain is not responsible for all those things you said. There have been experiments and theories which suggest that the brain does indeed account for a lot of that,


not suggest. It been proven multiple times.


Disney Duster wrote:
otherwise, all people in the world would pretty much be screwed and easily controlled by science right now,

That's a flat out lie. Science is about finding out the truth or fact of things through actual trials as oppose to just accepting a statement said in an ancient. It's about actually uncovering answers.


Disney Duster wrote:
but anyway, they are also only theories.

theories are theories but experiments and trials that have been proven consistently over time and time,

There is know way they can truly know if what they think about the brain is true. They only have observable evidence. Plus, my latest psychology book even states there are unknown factors in personality and human behavior. So if you only wanted to listen to science, there's even that.[/quote]

this isn't about psychology. It about biology 5star and us are talking about.

Disney Duster wrote:
Also, I don't know why anyone would want to believe their brain and body are responsible for such things. You get your brain and body from your family, but you only turn out a certain percentage like them, you have your own traits that are different from anyone in your family that make you unique and truly you. If you were only your brain and body you would be only like just half your mom and dad and you could be easily controlled by science, like I said.


yes and that is called DNA.

Oh and science doesn't "control" you. it's what part of you and everything else and that is called natural law or simply nature.. We are apart of it, animals are a part of it, plants, weather, planets, stars and so forth.

You know it's kinda funny. You said all that yet you accept the proven genetic fact that a person sexuality is something they are born with as oppose to choice like most Christians and anti-gay people just say.(which is mostly a justification means to be anti gay.



I know i initially wasn't going to reply but felt urge to say all this since seeing ignorance make me smh.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:20 am 
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Dr. Frankenollie, me and enigmawing have already explained very well why there might still be evil in the world. You have not explained to us why our explanations don't work, and so, why must we say so again? I don't know why you think so terribly of the world. You want heaven right now, and such thoughts actually disturb and worry me that you have them so young. Someone your age shouldn't have such depressing ideas. I hope you haven't had too many bad experiences or that you're just a negative person. But I have been through things so horrible I still pray for God to make them stop and sometimes it seems he helps me and sometimes I feel rather forsaken. But I still believe he's good because things really aren't so bad either, I'm not killing myself, and if you really notice most of the world is good, otherwise our movies would not promote good over evil and more people than less people would be murderers, etc. And none of the worst things in life, even things that might make us not want to live, can negate the greatness of Heaven. If all is right in the end, none of the bad crap really matters in the end either. It's just up to whether you are willing to believe in that great end or not.

As for the Bible, I already explain I only believe that the word of God is in there and in the messages he needed to get across, while people wrongly added to some of it. But I do also believe in the possibility of the whole thing being accurately God's word and us just reading/interpreting things wrong, mainly by being so negative or using our personal desires.

And yea God always answers our prayers. He doesn't always give us a "yes" if you understand me. It would make no sense for any and every prayer to be answered. Sometimes people need to die and pass on, etc.

So you've been to church and you didn't hear the scientific evidence or get desire to believe in God. Yea so? You need to believe in God because it is of your own desire. You are very negative, want physical proof, and are unwilling to believe in anything using faith, but you have to use faith, the Bible even says that.

Super Aurora, it seems real, true belief in only one God, not one god that can become many gods, really did only come from Judeo-Christianity. And Jesus is not supposed to be another god and neither is the Holy Spirit. They aren't like gods of the sun or gods of the rain or something.

Super Aurora wrote:
You know it's kinda funny. You said all that yet you accept the proven genetic fact that a person sexuality is something they are born with as oppose to choice like most Christians and anti-gay people just say.(which is mostly a justification means to be anti gay.


You have given me the perfect example to cover the rest of the things here. One, how well do any of you really understand me, for I have never once said I accept the idea of genes being responsible for being gay. I despise such a theory. If that theory was true, then once the gene was located, parents who like to choose how their growing unborn children should be, as some already do these days, could choose to have their baby straight, and perhaps the gene could even go extinct altogether someday. This is also what I meant by science controlling us. That if we really were just our physical genes, and experiences, then science could make us straight or gay, and eventually control our whole lives. Instead of genes, I believe our soul really controls us. You know how you can choose to “use” your brain? Your brain controls the physical things in you, but you (your soul) controls your brain. There is even evidence that what they thought was “the gay gene” can be turned on or off. Perhaps the soul can turn it on or off, while developing in the womb, unconsciously (and the soul is also called the unconscious). So in a way I guess that would be like a choice, but one you can’t even help making, so it’s not a choice. It would be something, of, well, a miracle.

I will never believe that what we are, or that all we are, is some mechanical thing made by pieces randomly coming together. I believe we were intently made by an intelligent powerful being, the Judeo-Christian idea of God. If Judeo-Christians didn’t come up with the idea of one God (which I would have to do a lot of research to be sure they didn’t), the way they reveal what he is sounds more right and to the point. God made things because he said they should be, he intended them to be. The other religions talk about gods of different physical things on Earth or having intercourse to make everything, while Judeo-Christians get right to the point of God simply making things be because he willed them with intent. If things randomly came together with no omnipotent force to intend them with his will, then by that logic no living being that exists on this Earth that is so randomly made could intend to make anything of will. We would be machines controlled by random will-less pieces. If that isn’t scientific proof, whatever you call that is proof enough for me. And this should cover all you have said to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:49 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
And yea God always answers our prayers. He doesn't always give us a "yes" if you understand me. It would make no sense for any and every prayer to be answered. Sometimes people need to die and pass on, etc.
That reminds me of a quote about the serenity prayer:

"There is a prayer intended to give strength to people faced with circumstances they don’t want to accept. The power of the prayer comes from its insight into human nature. Because so many of us rage against the hand that life has dealt us; because so many of us are cowardly, and afraid to stand up for what is right; because so many of us give into despair when faced with an impossible choice. The good news for those who utter these words is that God will hear you and answer your prayer. The bad news is that, sometimes, the answer is no."

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
And yea God always answers our prayers. He doesn't always give us a "yes" if you understand me. It would make no sense for any and every prayer to be answered. Sometimes people need to die and pass on, etc.

Then what use is there in praying? I mean, God had a 'divine plan' already, didn't he? So everything is set in stone already. So why the f--- bother praying if God does what he wants anyway? :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:39 pm 
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You know it's funny how you said you now say you don't believe in genetic(even though there is nothing to believe in to begin with as it's a fact of life) and yet you agree that animals, creature with lower intelligence and incapable of higher reason, and yet you also agree animal can be gay too. Well how think that is? There is the (fucose mutarotase) FucM gene – which influences the levels of estrogen to which the brain is exposed. this has both genetic and psychological aspect to the equation. Humans are same.


Oh and Christians borrowed many stuff from the Canaanites religion including the concept of Father(Yahweh) and son(El) god. Hell, the Jewish God and Christian God are completely different Gods all together.

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Disney Duster wrote:
Dr. Frankenollie, me and enigmawing have already explained very well why there might still be evil in the world.


I KNOW there's evil in the world, loony.

Disney Duster wrote:
You have not explained to us why our explanations don't work, and so, why must we say so again?


What...what explanations? Do you mean explanations of why there's evil in the world? If so, then let me explain why the idea that evil's existence is part of a test makes no sense, because for a test to be fair, it has to be the same for everyone.

Disney Duster wrote:
I don't know why you think so terribly of the world.


This is why:

Image
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Image

The saddest thing is that it could be a wonderful world, if people were fairer, less lazy, more charitable and if all forms of religion and fascism never existed.

Disney Duster wrote:
You want heaven right now, and such thoughts actually disturb and worry me that you have them so young. Someone your age shouldn't have such depressing ideas. I hope you haven't had too many bad experiences or that you're just a negative person.


First of all, I'm not a negative, pessimistic grump like you think I am. But you make me angry and frustrated. Secondly, why does it disturb you that I want to go to some kind of paradise? Of course I want Heaven right now! Who wouldn't? And if God is so loving, then why didn't he allow his creations to reside in paradise?

This fictional God character that exists only in your mind is horrid in my eyes. If he does exist, then he's a disgusting asshole; he creates life only to drag it through shit and torment his creations, and expects all of them to worship him. The character of Yawheh is a monster.

Disney Duster wrote:
But I have been through things so horrible I still pray for God to make them stop and sometimes it seems he helps me and sometimes I feel rather forsaken.


And so you should! There's a story of group of Jews, who were being led to their deaths in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany. They prayed to not just their God, but begged for the mercy of any God, asking for salvation. And they were killed in horrible, painful ways.

Disney Duster wrote:
But I still believe he's good because things really aren't so bad either, I'm not killing myself, and if you really notice most of the world is good, otherwise our movies would not promote good over evil and more people than less people would be murderers, etc.


Image

Movies are a form of escapism, Duster. They're. Not. Real. Just because they show good triumphing over evil doesn't mean that it happens in life. And most of the world is not 'good', whatever you mean by 'good.' There is misery, pain, starvation, disease, ignorance, greed, cruelty and evil anywhere and everywhere.

The reason there are less non-murderers than murderers is not because the world is a happy place with good people. It's because we're scared of being caught and being imprisoned; because we are brainwashed into thinking like our elders think instead of making up our own ethics; and because religious people like you are worried about going to Hell. Do you think the reason many Christians don't murder each other is because they're good people? :lol: No. They're scared of being sent to prison and scared of going to Hell.

Disney Duster wrote:
And none of the worst things in life, even things that might make us not want to live, can negate the greatness of Heaven. If all is right in the end, none of the bad crap really matters in the end either. It's just up to whether you are willing to believe in that great end or not.


So...are you suggesting that unless we believe we're all going to live happily ever after with our good, murderous friend God, we're not going to? And even if there is a Heaven, God should not put so many innocents through so much pain. I'm not being 'emo' or self-pitying, I'm thinking of the diseased, the starving and the poor.

Disney Duster wrote:
As for the Bible, I already explain I only believe that the word of God is in there and in the messages he needed to get across, while people wrongly added to some of it. But I do also believe in the possibility of the whole thing being accurately God's word and us just reading/interpreting things wrong, mainly by being so negative or using our personal desires.


Then if it's all accurately God's word (even though a lot of more intelligent Christians accept that the Bible was written by man), then how in the world can you be both a Christian and homosexual?!

Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

Disney Duster wrote:
And yea God always answers our prayers. He doesn't always give us a "yes" if you understand me. It would make no sense for any and every prayer to be answered. Sometimes people need to die and pass on, etc.


As Goliath said, if "sometimes people need to die and pass on" then...what's the point in praying? And you say that he always our prayers, but then say that it wouldn't make sense for any and every prayer to be answered. I think you need to see a doctor Duster, because none of this is making the slightest bit of sense.

Disney Duster wrote:
So you've been to church and you didn't hear the scientific evidence or get desire to believe in God. Yea so? You need to believe in God because it is of your own desire. You are very negative, want physical proof, and are unwilling to believe in anything using faith, but you have to use faith, the Bible even says that.


Gee, you're right! If EVEN the Bible says that, then I should have faith! After all, I obviously consider the Bible to be a reliable source of information and assistance!

Disney Duster wrote:
One, how well do any of you really understand me,


I don't understand you ever. At all. Whatsoever. Although it's probably not my fault, you're just mad.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
Then what use is there in praying? I mean, God had a 'divine plan' already, didn't he? So everything is set in stone already. So why the f--- bother praying if God does what he wants anyway? :?

I think Divinity answered that pretty well in the previous post, in that it gives strength to people faced with circumstances they don't want to accept. Even those that don't believe in God often acknowledge the power of prayer in those that do.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
then let me explain why the idea that evil's existence is part of a test makes no sense, because for a test to be fair, it has to be the same for everyone.

I already addressed this in the old thread, but let me reiterate . . .

enigmawing wrote:
Whether or not you believe God exists, if he's the omnimpotent being that most of us envision him as, his sense of fairness would be unfathomable to us. If he really is "testing" us, who are we to say there has to be a level playing field, or even what a level playing field is? It would have nothing to do with our mortal status regardless. Certain advantages that people may be born under (monetary or otherwise) mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the decisions they make in their lives. Someone born into riches may not necessarily be a better person than one that was born into poverty, and being well-off at any point does not guarantee having a good heart or being appreciative of the life they've been given. An extremely rich man donating a million dollars to charity means absolutely nothing when compared to a starving man offering his last bit of food to a hungry child. Anyone can easily be a "good" person when not faced with any strife; it's the hard times that bring out our true character. And if this life we're given is indeed a test, it's most likely about the decisions we make as individuals through whatever strife we face.

Dr Frankenollie, while you didn't reply directly to me, you did reply to Duster's reaction with this:

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
Yes, our true character can be seen via pain and suffering, but some suffer much more than others, so the theory of a 'test' justifying evil still doesn't make sense.

Once again, who are we to dictate what a fair, level playing field would be, or even that life is supposed to be fair to begin with? You act as if you know all the rules that should be dictated by a being that, in theory, is infinitely more intelligent than any human that walks this earth, a being that would likely have concepts that don't mold with where our ever-evolving society is today.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
As a sidenote, if pain and suffering is a test, then why do Christians try and end it? Why do religious people donate to scientific centres developing a cure for cancer if cancer is just a test to see both the sufferer and their family's true character? Why don't Christians just let innocent children going through miserable pain and agony die if it's part of a test? If life is a test, then it's clear that trying to stop pain and suffering is wrecking God's test; gee, does that mean that all the scientists in the history of the world who found cures for various diseases and illnesses are now in Hell because they ruined God's plans?

And hypothetically speaking, wouldn't the ability to recognize someone else's suffering and one's reaction to it also be a "test?" The world is more than just a group of individuals going through personal strife; our existence is ultimately much more complex than that, full of strangers, acquaintances, friends, families, communities, etc., and if we are being tested, should we be inhumane and look the other way when someone is sick, starved, bullied, or dying because "oh, that's just God's way of testing them and I shouldn't interfere?" I don't think that's the mentality Duster or anyone else was going for, and I doubt that an omnipotent being would view the world in such a black and white, simplistic existence. If we are being tested, it's likely it wouldn't be only about how we handle our own strife, but it would also gauge our level of compassion for others. I fail to see how anyone would think lifting a finger to help those in need would somehow be destructive of God's so-called plans unless we were meant to be puppets.

If God exists, I think one of the reasons evil exists is because free will does. No matter what we've been put through, we still have opportunity to make our own choices. We can let our greed, selfishness, and insecurities consume us, or we can try to add good to the world and treat others as we wish to be treated. And we don't even have to let the fear of peers, prison, or Hell influence our decisions . . . hell, I certainly don't. I know I don't always make the right choices, especially when I'm feeling weak or I'm in a situation that's heart-wrenchingly difficult to begin with, but I do the best I can. And really, that's all any of us can do. I've certainly had plenty of moments in my life that I'm not proud of, but would the existence of God be the reason to blame for my actions? After all, he's the one that allows evil to exist in the first place, right?

The only way to remove evil is to remove free will, and if there's no free will, what's the point? Are we just supposed to be mindless, happy puppets of God, prancing around in order to act out his "plan?" And how could we even begin to appreciate the good in our lives if there was no strife to accompany it? We've all known people that have had practically everything handed to them, and what good does it do them? They only expect more of it without any appreciation (for example, how many have seen the iPhone/new car Christmas tweets?).

It may sound odd at this point, but I'm not even trying to argue that God exists, or whether or not life really is some kind of a "test." I just feel the "fairness" arguments you've been so damned adamant about are arrogant and flawed. Regardless, after seeing the photos you've posted I hope you're doing more than just complaining about the world being such a terrible place, because whether or not God really exists, we all have to power to make a difference in other people's lives. :)

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Enigmawing, what a wonderfully well done response. I realize that all this time you've been one of the smartest in your responses here.

Goliath wrote:
Then what use is there in praying? I mean, God had a 'divine plan' already, didn't he? So everything is set in stone already. So why the f--- bother praying if God does what he wants anyway? :?

You seem to view God's plan as being something seperate from prayers and that prayers are trying to change it. If God planned it all out...he planned it all out, and that would include planning for people to pray for him for something to happen and for him to allow it to happen. Aside from that, praying to help someone even when you feel it's impossible to change is a sign of faith as well as a sign of love for who you are praying for if it's a person.

Super Aurora wrote:
You know it's funny how you said you now say you don't believe in genetic(even though there is nothing to believe in to begin with as it's a fact of life) and yet you agree that animals, creature with lower intelligence and incapable of higher reason, and yet you also agree animal can be gay too. Well how think that is? There is the (fucose mutarotase) FucM gene – which influences the levels of estrogen to which the brain is exposed. this has both genetic and psychological aspect to the equation. Humans are same.

Yes animals have genes and actually the Catholic church even believes they have souls, just animal souls which are different and not as high as human souls. But as humans do and think more and have more going on, their choice, to turn that gay gene on, would have more to it, though like I said it's like a choice but not a choice. Complicated? You bet. I'd be fine believing it's not a soul's choice. I'm sure that's easier to understand. But I do believe the soul still turns on that gene or somehow makes the genes what it wants/is.

Super Aurora wrote:
Oh and Christians borrowed many stuff from the Canaanites religion including the concept of Father(Yahweh) and son(El) god. Hell, the Jewish God and Christian God are completely different Gods all together.

I think what it really is is that the Canaanites became the Jewish people who eventually used the name Yahweh to refer specifically to the God who revealed himself to them as the one and only God. Never heard Jesus called El before, so, it's a no on that one. And lots of other religions have gods who have kids, as I said there's a lot of gods having children in other religions, but it's not the story of God having the human Mary immaculately have Jesus who is both human and God's son and God himself. For some reason you, Goliath, and many other people in this world think if something's similar to something else it must be "the same idea" and "stolen"?

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
Disney Duster wrote:
Dr. Frankenollie, me and enigmawing have already explained very well why there might still be evil in the world.


I KNOW there's evil in the world, loony.

You misread what I was saying. I was saying what might be the reason there is still evil in this world, jerk. >: (

Disney Duster wrote:
The saddest thing is that it could be a wonderful world, if people were fairer, less lazy, more charitable and if all forms of religion and fascism never existed.

But many religions, especially the Christian ones, actually try to help and solve those problems you just posted pictures of. Also, if there were no religion, that would be very oppresive. Freedom of religion is freedom of being aloud to not just believe but share your believes with others and have a community in it.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
First of all, I'm not a negative, pessimistic grump like you think I am. But you make me angry and frustrated. Secondly, why does it disturb you that I want to go to some kind of paradise? Of course I want Heaven right now! Who wouldn't? And if God is so loving, then why didn't he allow his creations to reside in paradise?

I thought you were saying you hate your life so much you want to be in Heaven now. If you do not hate your life so much wouldn't you rather continue this journey in the world learning things and proving yourself against challenges before you enter a world where everything's perfect and happy?

For crying out loud some of the things you love are based on challenges and conflicts, like the movies you to talk about at length. But for very reasons like that, that we must go through challenges and prove ourselves worthy of heaven is why we can't have heaven now. Your parents love you but they only give you certain extra things when you earn them yet you think God is unloving for doing that as well.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
There's a story of group of Jews, who were being led to their deaths in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany. They prayed to not just their God, but begged for the mercy of any God, asking for salvation. And they were killed in horrible, painful ways.

And maybe some or all of them went to a place of eternal bliss. But I must point out, praying to other gods is actually a sin and not the kind of thing that would make God want to spare them of their deaths, not that I'm saying that's exactly what happened but it is a thought.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
Movies are a form of escapism, Duster. They're. Not. Real. Just because they show good triumphing over evil doesn't mean that it happens in life. And most of the world is not 'good', whatever you mean by 'good.' There is misery, pain, starvation, disease, ignorance, greed, cruelty and evil anywhere and everywhere.

The reason there are less non-murderers than murderers is not because the world is a happy place with good people. It's because we're scared of being caught and being imprisoned; because we are brainwashed into thinking like our elders think instead of making up our own ethics; and because religious people like you are worried about going to Hell. Do you think the reason many Christians don't murder each other is because they're good people? :lol: No. They're scared of being sent to prison and scared of going to Hell.

No I meant that if there was really more bad than good, than the majority of people wouldn't make movies that showed good being most important and winning just to escape, because if most people were really bad than they would like to make movies that showed bad winning or that bad was good.

But I must say wow if you really think generally that Christians aren't good people and that they want to murder each other, you have an extremely negative and rather wicked view. It makes you sound more like a monster than the way you thought of God. I do not think you are one but I'm telling you what you sound like. I hope that something happens to make you happier and not think so badly. I have no idea what to do. I mean, how is your life dude?

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
Disney Duster wrote:
And none of the worst things in life, even things that might make us not want to live, can negate the greatness of Heaven. If all is right in the end, none of the bad crap really matters in the end either. It's just up to whether you are willing to believe in that great end or not.


So...are you suggesting that unless we believe we're all going to live happily ever after with our good, murderous friend God, we're not going to? And even if there is a Heaven, God should not put so many innocents through so much pain. I'm not being 'emo' or self-pitying, I'm thinking of the diseased, the starving and the poor.

No I think if you don't believe you will get some retribution, but perhaps even non-believers will get into Heaven. All I know is that you should believe. There's no reason it would be bad for you not to believe, it could only help. The fact you have such a vendetta against it shows it's not that you really don't believe. You are purposely choosing not to and don't want to listen to anyone who can explain why your reasons for not believing don't fly since there is no reason. You can some up with excuses but there's really no specific reason. Believing isn't supposed to be based on evidence yet you say that's what you need. That leads into a nonsensical circle because you are supposed to believe without evidence, other than existence itself and the Bible.

And if you are really thinking of all the pain in the world why are you spending so much time just thinking about it instead of spending more of that time trying to help people like that, because a lot of those problems are caused at least in part by people, with their own wills, which God doesn't control, and it is people's wills that can also try to solve those problems and maybe you should join them because maybe that's what God wants you to do and a lot of Christians are doing it.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
Then if it's all accurately God's word (even though a lot of more intelligent Christians accept that the Bible was written by man), then how in the world can you be both a Christian and homosexual?!

Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

I have heard it before as "shall not lie with a woman like you do with a man" which I have wondered for a while if that means "don't just do guys for the heck of it like you also do women" or "don't do men like you do women" which is about emasculation. People have also added to and changed or translated the Bible differently over the years so things like that may not be certainly God's word. But how I currently view it as that either the men of the Bible meant that you shouldn't rape a man to have pleasure because most men of that time were really only interested in woman but sometimes raped men for pleasure, or that the men put it in their when God didn't want them to and people need to figure out that's their word and not God's just like I may be doing now.

And I think enigmawing's response covers anything else I want to.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
You seem to view God's plan as being something seperate from prayers and that prayers are trying to change it. If God planned it all out...he planned it all out, and that would include planning for people to pray for him for something to happen and for him to allow it to happen

It will never cease to amaze me that you can type out all this kind of stuff so casually as if they made the least bit of sense...

Yeah, Duster, sounds perfectly logical to me. :roll:


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