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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:36 am 
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Goliath wrote:
How is it 'a life' when it can't survive on its own outside of the uterus? 'Murder' is taking away, by force, another human being's life. That's so far removed from the practice of abortion that you really can't label them the same without coming off really detached from reality.

That's fair enough to say, I admit. And a good point. But you're arguing that just because it can't survive outside the mother, that it isn't alive anywhere. It's a stupid thing for me to argue back; stupid as in simple. But that doesn't make it untrue: if an organism of any size or composition is alive, it is a form of life. No matter where it lives. And I apply this same theory, without judgment, to every case in which there is life. Which we kill constantly: from squashing bugs to bacteria we can't see to killing plants for food. You really believe that because I use the word murder, I also judge it as being wrong. But it's killing something living. That's all I'm saying. And it's true. In the case of a fetus, it's the mother's job to decide whether it's right or wrong. I haven't lost my grip on anything. I think you're just reading me wrong a little bit. I know my view isn't shared by most people, be they pro or anti-choice. But I think I've got it right. No matter how simplistic it is.


Goliath wrote:
Lazario wrote:
And we've talked before, I pretty much support all legal forms of taking a life - euthenasia (of people and animals), capitol punishment (mainly because I'm very cynical when it comes to rehabilitation), come up with another one.

I think it's incredible that people still support capital punishment after the array of cases we've seen lately in which people were released from death row after decades when it turned out they were wrongly convicted. And just a month ago, a guy in Texas was executed who very likely was innocent as well. To knowingly and willingly take the chance that you execute an innocent human being is morally reprehensible, to me.

Well, whatever you do, G: don't think for a minute that I trust the legal system in the United States. Just because I believe in capitol punishment doesn't mean I believe it's performed justly. Again- it's not a moral issue with me. Or a way for me to feel superior or safe somehow, that all the "scum of the Earth" is being taken care of, etc.


littlefuzzy wrote:
Judges HAVE ruled that if someone causes assaults a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry, they can be tried for murder, even if it is only 7-8 weeks old.

I hate to say it - though I have to say it because I want to distance myself from that The Amazing Atheist way of coming off like I don't care about people's feelings - but I'm really not sure I agree with that kind of thing. It seems like it would vary. For example: if a person assaults a pregnant woman intentionally either because he/she wants to do harm to the baby inside her or because they're targeting her for her vulnerability, that is a crime against the pregnancy itself. That should be punished accordingly- according to the fact that in these cases, the attacker knows the woman is pregnant and takes the risk of killing the child. However, if the criminal has no idea the woman is pregnant or there are no obvious signs that she is pregnant, it's wrong to try the criminal for killing the baby. Flat-out wrong. And something that is only happening because of SOME of the U.S.'s rabid pro-life views. To make up in some small way for the mother's (and potentially the father's) emotional devastation. But, that's not the job of this law. It's to incarcerate or/and put to death killers who know they're killers or can't be stopped from killing.

The criminal's life is actually not connected to the child's, that's forced ... how do I say it: biblical tie-in sorta thing. See what I'm saying? It's hard for people to understand but the act of one person killing another is not 2 lives tied together. Capitol punishment and its' justified use in my eyes (which is: only when the murder is malicious, pre-meditated, and CLEARLY avoidable in every sense of the word) is not about "an eye for an eye," it's about a person has killed before and they should not be allowed to do it again. Killing them is the only way to make sure they don't.

This kind of law or edit/addition to a law is an abuse of the law's reason for existing. In my eyes, which is again that the murder is committed with full knowledge of the fact that the person murdering is maliciously and with pre-meditation taking another's life. There's no such thing as Accidental Murder.



And, Duster... this topic is complicated enough without involving talk of reincarnation. Let's not go there.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:04 am 
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I do murder all the time! When I jack off furiously over a hot chick. All that cum, crying in it's blood as I wipe and clean it up with a tissue then throw the damn thing away. All those little cute sperms with such adorable and cute personality. DEAD.

Yep I'm a bloody murderer for killing unborn life. Fuck yeah!

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Last edited by Super Aurora on Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
And, Duster... this topic is complicated enough without involving talk of reincarnation. Let's not go there.

Please explain. I wasn't talking about reincarnatin. Who you are, your soul, must exist at some point in the womb, it enters into it before you're born.

Super Aurora, lol, but why did you say throw the "damn thing" away?

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Last edited by Disney Duster on Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:59 pm 
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littlefuzzy wrote:
So would it be a life around 22-26 weeks? Many preemies survive around that time.
Is it a life if it has a heartbeat? Brain activity? A Nervous system?

I would argue that it's life when it can survive outside the womb. Like you said, around 22-26 weeks. I don't know what the limit in the US is, but in The Netherlands, you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks, if I'm correct. Maybe that's a bit too late.

littlefuzzy wrote:
Judges HAVE ruled that if someone causes assaults a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry, they can be tried for murder, even if it is only 7-8 weeks old.

Yeah, there are all kinds of crazy judges all over the US who will always rule for the heaviest punishment possible, because, after all, judges in the US are elected by the people and of course only a judge who satisfies the blood-thirst of the common people will get re-elected. It's a stupid system which totally undermines the impartiality of the judicial system, but unfortunately I don't see it changing the coming years...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:53 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Lazario wrote:
And, Duster... this topic is complicated enough without involving talk of reincarnation. Let's not go there.

Please explain. I wasn't talking about reincarnation. Who you are, your soul, must exist at some point in the womb, it enters into it before you're born.

As you can imagine, I don't believe in souls. The concept of a soul is so ethereal anyway that trying to map out where it starts only makes the theory sound crazier. Just leave it to be one of those things nobody knows. Or tries to explain. One of life's great mysteries.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:27 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
As you can imagine, I don't believe in souls. The concept of a soul is so ethereal anyway that trying to map out where it starts only makes the theory sound crazier. Just leave it to be one of those things nobody knows. Or tries to explain. One of life's great mysteries.

This coming from the guy who says Sleeping Beauty is a good film because it's "spiritually meta"?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:33 am 
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Gosh, wandering into a topic like this? :( :?


I can't say it's a bad thing, but I will definately not say it is a good thing either.

I don't agree with people having an abortion simply because they don't want the unborn child when it is born. If they don't want it, put it up for adoption(is kinda a harsh thing in a way as well, unfortunately :( ).

But if it has something to do with aborting the unborn child because it could be hazardous to the mothers health, or perhaps the unborn being born with something that would make their life miserable, then I suppose it is alright.

As for people aborting unborn children because they are not ready to go through the pain(mind you, I've never given birth to anything, but I can tell it's a pretty painful thing to go through!). I'm not really sure...

There are times where women will... Well. It's kinda hard to put it delicately... :(

If a woman was raped(please forgive me for using such an example :oops: ) and got pregnant, I can understand them opting for an abortion, as they may not be ready to endure the pain, as well as the task of motherhood, but at the same time I feel that it is not right, as it was not the unborn childs fault that they became pregnant. They can opt to give birth, and then make the choice of either raising it or putting it up for adoption.


Abortion is a very fragile subject. It brings neither bad nor good. It just depends on the circumstance, really... :oops:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:12 am 
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contraceptives

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:34 am 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Lazario wrote:
As you can imagine, I don't believe in souls. The concept of a soul is so ethereal anyway that trying to map out where it starts only makes the theory sound crazier. Just leave it to be one of those things nobody knows. Or tries to explain. One of life's great mysteries.

This coming from the guy who says Sleeping Beauty is a good film because it's "spiritually meta"?

Did you see what I did in the Alan Menken Songs thread- is it so hard to believe that I got high one night and just can't remember smoking anything?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Kraken Guard wrote:
If a woman was raped(please forgive me for using such an example :oops: ) and got pregnant, I can understand them opting for an abortion, as they may not be ready to endure the pain, as well as the task of motherhood, but at the same time I feel that it is not right, as it was not the unborn childs fault that they became pregnant. They can opt to give birth, and then make the choice of either raising it or putting it up for adoption.

But you cannot ask a woman to go through nine months of pregnancy with all the fysical and emotional troubles (let alone the impact it has on a study/work/career) when the pregnancy was forced upon her by an attacker. I think you underestimate the psychological damage something like that can do to a woman. I don't think it's a reasonable thing to ask; and "it's not the unborn child's fault" may be true (though in the case of an abortion following shortly after the rape there is not an "unborn child" yet at all), but the same goes for the woman. So why would you consider the option of asking her to go through with the pregnancy?

ajmrowland wrote:
contraceptives

What if the condom breaks?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Well I have a few opinions on this.

First of all I believe that in a perfect world, no one would be having sex unless they were prepared to live with the consequences. Why? Well when you consent to having sex, you know that you are about to be a part in what is first and foremost a REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS. No matter what form of contraception you use, it is not 100% safe. Therefore if you have sex you know that you are taking a risk, and I believe that if you take that risk you should be FULLY prepared to live with the consequences.

However, I have to admit I can be kind of a hypocrite. If I was a 16 year-old girl and I found myself pregnant I would probably want to have an abortion.

And what about the rights of the father? Where does he factor into this? If the woman doesn't want the child and the father does, shouldn't he be able to raise the child himself? I know that means that the mother will have to go through the pregnancy, but as I stated earlier, that's just one of the consequences you have to live with.

Also, I have to admit that I do value a fetus as a life to some extent. Remember, we were all fetuses once, who developed into the people we are today. You may not believe that you're killing a human being, but you are killing something which is growing into one.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:22 pm 
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double post sorry!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:12 pm 
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candydog wrote:
Well when you consent to having sex, you know that you are about to be a part in what is first and foremost a REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS.


Unless you're gay, or doing some form of non-traditonal intercourse. And what of people who have sex forced upon them? I wouldn't give the father his say on anything in that case.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:23 pm 
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candydog wrote:
If I was a 16 year-old girl and I found myself pregnant I would probably want to have an abortion.
Just to add, unwanted pregnancies don't just happen to 16 year-olds. I know on Desperate Housewives, they portrayed a 50+ year-old who had already raised 4 children and got pregnant again with twins. She had been glad that part of her life was finally over and abortion was on her mind, just like it would be on anyone's.

That kind of thing can screw up anyone's plans. Abortion is a really difficult topic for me to pin an opinion down to. I know I wouldn't get one myself, but at the same time I don't know if it should be considered murder (or at what time in the baby's development it becomes "wrong" to abort). I usually don't think about it because, thankfully, I'll never have to be in that situation. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:57 pm 
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candydog wrote:
Well when you consent to having sex, you know that you are about to be a part in what is first and foremost a REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS. No matter what form of contraception you use, it is not 100% safe. Therefore if you have sex you know that you are taking a risk, and I believe that if you take that risk you should be FULLY prepared to live with the consequences.

I'm sorry (and I hope those two little words will cause a shitstorm again about how it's supposedly patronizing --which it is not), but I have to call bullshit. When you use contraceptives, sex is not a "reproductive process". Yes, biologically speaking, we are wired, still, to want to have sex because we have to produce offspring, but nowadays, we don't *have* to anymore, so it has become mostly a recreational process --though not all people have adapted to modern times yet, especially religious people, to whom the idea of having sex just for the fun of it is still frightening.

So, if sex is recreational (for lack of a better word), then there should be no life-altering consequences. That's where contraception comes in. And indeed, contraception isn't always 100% safe. Like I said to ajmrowland, the condom may break. But does that mean a woman should have to carry a baby for 9 months and raise a child? All because of a rubber thing that broke?! Hell no, why should she? Having children should be the result of a careful and deliberate decision; not because of an accident.

candydog wrote:
And what about the rights of the father? Where does he factor into this? If the woman doesn't want the child and the father does, shouldn't he be able to raise the child himself? I know that means that the mother will have to go through the pregnancy, but as I stated earlier, that's just one of the consequences you have to live with.

No, the father has no rights. That is, a father doesn't become a "father" until the child has been born. Until that moment, he isn't a "father". So no, a man has no right to decide over what goes on in a woman's womb. That's a decision of the woman and the woman alone. If he wants to raise the child alone, well, that's tough then. Unless he finds a way to be able to take over the pregnancy from the woman, he has no leg to stand on.

candydog wrote:
Also, I have to admit that I do value a fetus as a life to some extent. Remember, we were all fetuses once, who developed into the people we are today. You may not believe that you're killing a human being, but you are killing something which is growing into one.

Yeah, but that's like saying that a woman who has her period is "killing" potential life, too, like Carlin said.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:02 pm 
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At the point when you would abort the child, it is not a life. Yes, it prevents a life, but so does using contraceptives. You can't classify abortion as good or bad, it depends on the case. But I will always support people's rights to choose. I'm sure that if two people had both agreed to sex, and one wanted an abortion and the other didn't, they could come to some agreement. But it should be the woman's choice, bottom line.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:11 pm 
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candydog wrote:
Why? Well when you consent to having sex, you know that you are about to be a part in what is first and foremost a REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS.


"Today we're going to talk about the most dangerous sexually transmitted disease of all:.... PREGNANCY"

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I mean, for the love of God, whatever happened to teaching our kids that having sex is about making love? We can teach our kids about the risks AND the importance of love. The reason so many kids are having unprotected sex and getting knocked up is because we don't educate them. People don't talk to their kids and just treat them like idiots.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:54 pm 
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:lol: I miss Ms. Choksondik

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:43 pm 
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GAH! Time for eyebleach! That picture made me recall the episode, especially the part where her breasts fell out of her shirt.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:38 am 
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It is absolutely, 100% a woman's right to choose what goes on with HER body. The fact that anyone thinks they ought to have say about what another person does with their health, especially when it's something as major as pregnancy, amazes me. In a really bad way.

When I was just a stupid kid, I used to think "oh, well, it's bad, but it's ok if it's a matter of rape or incest. That's it though!!" That is a cop-out. That is you trying to make everyone like you by sitting on the fence: well, it's a no-no, but so's rape/incest, so whaddya gonna do, shrug shrug, and so on.

No. You don't get to decide. The woman does.

--drops mic--

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