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 Post subject: Abortion: Good or Bad?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:51 pm 
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Is abortion good or bad? Should it be classed as murder? Should the fetus be classed as a human being? Is it not always good and not always bad, but only sometimes good and sometimes bad?

Discuss.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:56 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:44 pm 
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It's a catch 22

And as for good or bad, you really can't label it as either. It's circumstantial like almost everything else in this world.

I mean you don't see "Congratulations on your Abortion" or "Shame on you for your Abortion" cards at Hallmark.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:37 pm 
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So anyone want to place bets on how long it'll be before this is locked, or what.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:43 pm 
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^ 4 days

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:58 am 
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Yeah, Dr.F, we've had threads like this in the past and they never work out. Of course, since it's been so long- I also forget why.

To answer your question, though... nobody is stupid enough to think abortion is good. You've gotta be kidding. Nobody has ever defended it or allowed it because they think it's good. It's not like just unplugging a chord or disconnecting 2 wires and then the problem of pregnancy is solved.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:35 am 
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Lazario wrote:
To answer your question, though... nobody is stupid enough to think abortion is good. You've gotta be kidding.


I think it's good.





(just to remind you how and why these threads usually fail) :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:53 am 
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PatrickvD wrote:
Lazario wrote:
To answer your question, though... nobody is stupid enough to think abortion is good. You've gotta be kidding.

I think it's good.

(just to remind you how and why these threads usually fail) :wink:

You think people who agree abortion is necessary (completely separate from "good") do the most arguing with each other about it?

I agree we need abortion because it makes a statement about individual rights and, to a very small degree, it helps control population. But that also doesn't mean it's good. Even I, a person who believes no one has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body, think abortion is actually a form of murder. Murder is never good, no matter how necessary.

To say it's good is a blatant middle-finger to every woman who has had a bad experience with it. And doesn't in any way help people who are literally fighting tooth and nail to keep the right in-place despite all the new legislation making it harder every day for a woman to get one in the U.S. New just this month:

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/10/ ... borti.html

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:44 am 
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Kudos to Lazario for being the voice of reason in this thread!

I stay out of abortion debates because I'm never quite sure where I stand. As a female-type person, I can't imagine a situation where I would feel abortion to be the best option for me. However, until you've been there, I feel, you really can't know for sure.

I just think it's very important to point out the pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. The title of this thread might lead people to think otherwise.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:16 am 
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Lazario wrote:
PatrickvD wrote:
Lazario wrote:
To answer your question, though... nobody is stupid enough to think abortion is good. You've gotta be kidding.

I think it's good.

(just to remind you how and why these threads usually fail) :wink:

You think people who agree abortion is necessary (completely separate from "good") do the most arguing with each other about it?

I agree we need abortion because it makes a statement about individual rights and, to a very small degree, it helps control population. But that also doesn't mean it's good. Even I, a person who believes no one has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body, think abortion is actually a form of murder. Murder is never good, no matter how necessary.

To say it's good is a blatant middle-finger to every woman who has had a bad experience with it. And doesn't in any way help people who are literally fighting tooth and nail to keep the right in-place despite all the new legislation making it harder every day for a woman to get one in the U.S. New just this month:

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/10/ ... borti.html


WOW.

I was kidding.

The act of aborting an unborn child is awful, wether one is for or against it. I was merely demonstrating HOW threads like these go crazy, because you mentioned forgetting about it. I actually have nothing to say on the entire subject matter. I'm not even gonna reveal wether I am pro-choice or not. It's irrelevant to what I'm trying to say here. Here's what you said:

Lazario wrote:
Yeah, Dr.F, we've had threads like this in the past and they never work out. Of course, since it's been so long- I also forget why.


Was the small print not clear? This is exactly how these threads spin out of control. You say it's bad, someone comes along and says it's good. Ta-daaaa. Argument born. Spawning many many pages.

So thank you for proving my point.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:10 pm 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
Even I, a person who believes no one has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body, think abortion is actually a form of murder.

Doctors, lawyers, judges and the Supreme Court disagree with you. This kind of abject and crazy comparison is something I would expect from a religious fanatic, not from a (reasonably) sane person like you.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:19 pm 
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I feel mostly the way Lazario described. I'm pro-choice, but I could never get an abortion if it was me.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:58 pm 
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SpringHeelJack wrote:
So anyone want to place bets on how long it'll be before this is locked, or what.


I'd say it has another week left.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:34 am 
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Goliath wrote:
Lazario wrote:
Even I, a person who believes no one has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body, think abortion is actually a form of murder.

Doctors, lawyers, judges and the Supreme Court disagree with you. This kind of abject and crazy comparison is something I would expect from a religious fanatic, not from a (reasonably) sane person like you.

Thank you, G (and you're gonna need a bigger case for a person's insanity than thinking Madonna remained culturally and musically relevant after 1999 :D). But I'm not making a moral judgment here. The act of abortion is ending a life. No matter what stage it's in, it's still a life. I think a person can say this and not be condemning anyone for agreeing with abortion. I know what you mean and I know how hard it is to make the case for abortion. Given the opposition and their moral judgments. Actually, that's what I was arguing to PatrickvD.

What you're saying is - have I changed my mind about abortion? Not at all. I define murder as ending a life of any kind. And we've talked before, I pretty much support all legal forms of taking a life - euthenasia (of people and animals), capitol punishment (mainly because I'm very cynical when it comes to rehabilitation), come up with another one. I'll support it. As long as someone has a choice in the matter. Maybe that just sounds grim, but it's honestly me. I support death. And would prefer it to be as humane as possible every time (except in the case of Hitler, Bin Laden, George W. Bush- people like that).


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I feel mostly the way Lazario described. I'm pro-choice, but I could never get an abortion if it was me.

That's not exactly what I was thinking. Close. I just want to make it clear that it isn't easy for a woman to have. And, furthermore to Goliath, that women also struggle with their conscience over taking a life. Although, much more I would hope: what having one will do to their body. To para-repeat Renata, it's hard to know because we don't hear a lot about women's experiences having an abortion. We've just heard on tv that it is emotionally scarring. We're not told a lot about how physically painful and horrifying it likely is.

All that said, pro-choice is so not about supporting abortion. It's about not trying to control a woman- letting her make the choice for herself. That's what I stand for and believe in because life experience (not The Bible) teaches us that each person usually knows what's best for themselves and their own body. It's just not right to hand over the right to choose to someone else.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Lazario wrote:
The act of abortion is ending a life. No matter what stage it's in, it's still a life. I think a person can say this and not be condemning anyone for agreeing with abortion.

How is it 'a life' when it can't survive on its own outside of the uterus? 'Murder' is taking away, by force, another human being's life. That's so far removed from the practice of abortion that you really can't label them the same without coming off really detached from reality.

Lazario wrote:
And we've talked before, I pretty much support all legal forms of taking a life - euthenasia (of people and animals), capitol punishment (mainly because I'm very cynical when it comes to rehabilitation), come up with another one.

I think it's incredible that people still support capital punishment after the array of cases we've seen lately in which people were released from death row after decades when it turned out they were wrongly convicted. And just a month ago, a guy in Texas was executed who very likely was innocent as well. To knowingly and willingly take the chance that you execute an innocent human being is morally reprehensible, to me.

And of course, no abortion-topic on UD would be complete without this little bit of wisdom from Carlin:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/XekUEXULMXg" frameborder="0"></iframe>


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:16 pm 
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I'm pro choice, but I can't say if abortion is bad or good, it depends on the individual case. As a woman, I can completely understand why someone wold want to have an abortion. I completely support people`s rights to choose. And really, if abortion was made illegal, people would still do it. Only there would be a lot more pregnant woman dying as well.

Goliath wrote:
And of course, no abortion-topic on UD would be complete without this little bit of wisdom from Carlin:


No topic would be complete without Carlin!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Goliath wrote:
Lazario wrote:
The act of abortion is ending a life. No matter what stage it's in, it's still a life. I think a person can say this and not be condemning anyone for agreeing with abortion.

How is it 'a life' when it can't survive on its own outside of the uterus? 'Murder' is taking away, by force, another human being's life. That's so far removed from the practice of abortion that you really can't label them the same without coming off really detached from reality.

So would it be a life around 22-26 weeks? Many preemies survive around that time.
Is it a life if it has a heartbeat? Brain activity? A Nervous system?

Judges HAVE ruled that if someone causes assaults a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry, they can be tried for murder, even if it is only 7-8 weeks old.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:27 pm 
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littlefuzzy wrote:
So would it be a life around 22-26 weeks? Many preemies survive around that time.
Is it a life if it has a heartbeat? Brain activity? A Nervous system?


I think he meant that the newborn would be able to survive on his/her own outside the womb. Technically, around 7 months is when that occurs; that's when surfactant is produced which means the fetus can be born and breathe on his/her own.*

Personally, I'm pro-choice. Now I don't want to say that abortion is good or bad, but if the mother doesn't want to have the child (and it's before 7 months) I think that it would be perfectly acceptable to have an abortion if that's what she wanted.


*thank you developmental psych professor!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:40 pm 
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I suppose we can't know for sure when you are "you" in the womb, a spirited human being. I suppose that for a few months, it is a necessary bad to be able to choose to get rid of the unborn body. But I'm thinking the spirit of a human being probably wouldn't exist in it until after a few months. Technically I suppose life begins at conception...yikes...maybe just physical life...but maybe the soul doesn't enter till after a few months. It'd be great to believe that, since sometimes it seems abortion is the best option, like to save both mother and child from a terrible, terrible, starving life, barely living.

By the way, it's not about the right of a woman to choose, it also takes the right away from doctors, male or female, to be able to abort, so it is really about the right for any person to kill an...well, you should never be able to kill an unborn baby. Let's say the right to kill an unborn pregnancy/life. Yikes, still sounds bad...

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